SCOTUS hearing TODAY on Jan6 convictions law

685 Views | 16 Replies | Last: 29 days ago by calbear93
concordtom
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The Supreme Court on Tuesday will hear arguments in a high-stakes case that could invalidate felony obstruction charges for more than 300 individuals connected to the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol attack -- including former President Donald Trump.

At issue in the case of Fischer v. United States is whether a federal law enacted in 2002 to prevent the cover-up of financial crimes can be used to put some Jan. 6 defendants behind bars, potentially up to 20 years.

The Sarbanes-Oxley Act,
passed in response to the Enron accounting scandal, criminalizes the destruction of evidence -- specifically records or documents -- and anyone who "otherwise obstructs, influences or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so."

Joseph Fischer was a participant in the "Stop the Steal" rally on Jan. 6 who faces prosecution for allegedly being part of the crowd that entered the Capitol as Congress was attempting to certify the 2020 election results.

The Justice Department alleges Fischer's unauthorized presence inside the Capitol building impeded Congress' certification of the electoral vote count, which is an "official proceeding."

Trump is not named in the case but faces the same charge being challenged by Fischer, a former Pennsylvania police officer.

The DOJ has used the statute to win convictions or guilty pleas against more than 150 individuals involved in the events of Jan. 6.

Fischer argues the government's reading of the law is overly broad and unprecedented. He claims the "obstruction of an official proceeding" clause should apply only to the types of financial and evidentiary crimes the law was intended to target.

A District Court judge -- Trump-appointee Carl J. Nichols -- sided with Fischer and dismissed the felony count against him and several other alleged rioters. Later, a divided Appeals Court panel reversed that decision in a 2-1 ruling that reinstated the charges.

Overall, 14 of the 15 federal judges who have overseen cases involving alleged Capitol rioters charged with obstruction of an official proceeding have allowed the DOJ to use the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

If the Supreme Court rules in favor of Fischer, it could call into question dozens of Jan. 6 prosecutions potentially resulting in some overturned convictions or reduced sentences -- but would likely not upend the majority of Jan. 6 cases, most of which involve violent felony charges or misdemeanor infractions like trespassing, legal experts say.

Such a decision could, however, significantly undermine special counsel Jack Smith's prosecution of Trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Two of the four counts in the federal indictment against Trump involve the Sarbanes-Oxley Act and alleged conspiracy to obstruct and actual obstruction of an official proceeding.

In a separate case this month, the high court will decide whether Trump is altogether immune from criminal prosecution for his alleged election interference. A ruling in both cases is expected by the end of June.
concordtom
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If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.
tequila4kapp
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concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

There are rules for statutory construction related to use of language outside the scope of statutory intent. I do not know what they are. That is the starting point. The next place to look is who the 16 judges are that rules as they did. I am suspicious we might find some potential judicial trends because on its face using S-O for J6 is out there. I see this as an instance where people should be focused on the scope of government (prosecutorial) power and not the J6 result.
concordtom
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tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

The next place to look is who the 16 judges are that rules as they did. I am suspicious we might find some potential judicial trends because on its face using S-O for J6 is out there.

I see this as an instance where
people should be focused on the scope of government (prosecutorial) power and not the J6 result.

Of course you are.
Of course you do.
We don't expect anything less of you.
concordtom
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tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.



Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
tequila4kapp
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concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

The next place to look is who the 16 judges are that rules as they did. I am suspicious we might find some potential judicial trends because on its face using S-O for J6 is out there.

I see this as an instance where
people should be focused on the scope of government (prosecutorial) power and not the J6 result.
Of course you are.
Of course you do.
We don't expect anything less of you.
This post is uncharacteristically ass-hatty of you. Well done.
tequila4kapp
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concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
I suggest you read anything that summarizes oral arguments.

The DOJ was asked about the outer limits of this application of this statute - What about someone that protests at SCOTUS or a trial court and halts proceedings, or the Congressman who pulled the fire alarm to stop a Congressional vote? Answer: trust us. Perhaps that's good enough for you because all of this happens in a single direction, against those whom you are not politically aligned. But if you could EVER look past your nose and not see Donald Trump you might realize, just for once, that these same excesses can be used against you and yours in the snap of a finger after the next election. To wit, it is NOT about Trump, it is about the normal administration of Justice, equally applied for all.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
I suggest you read anything that summarizes oral arguments.

The DOJ was asked about the outer limits of this application of this statute - What about someone that protests at SCOTUS or a trial court and halts proceedings, or the Congressman who pulled the fire alarm to stop a Congressional vote? Answer: trust us. Perhaps that's good enough for you because all of this happens in a single direction, against those whom you are not politically aligned. But if you could EVER look past your nose and not see Donald Trump you might realize, just for once, that these same excesses can be used against you and yours in the snap of a finger after the next election. To wit, it is NOT about Trump, it is about the normal administration of Justice, equally applied for all.
If Democrats invade the Capitol, assault the police and vandalize the building, I have no problem with them being prosecuted. The same goes for the Democratic congressman that pulled the fire alarm.
Palestinian Chicken
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
I suggest you read anything that summarizes oral arguments.

The DOJ was asked about the outer limits of this application of this statute - What about someone that protests at SCOTUS or a trial court and halts proceedings, or the Congressman who pulled the fire alarm to stop a Congressional vote? Answer: trust us. Perhaps that's good enough for you because all of this happens in a single direction, against those whom you are not politically aligned. But if you could EVER look past your nose and not see Donald Trump you might realize, just for once, that these same excesses can be used against you and yours in the snap of a finger after the next election. To wit, it is NOT about Trump, it is about the normal administration of Justice, equally applied for all.
If Democrats invade the Capitol, assault the police and vandalize the building, I have no problem with them being prosecuted. The same goes for the Democratic congressman that pulled the fire alarm.
Except that the people who entered the Capitol largely didn't assault the police (which is why they weren't charged with assault) or vandalize anything. That's why they needed to use other BS laws to charge them with something because the important thing to get done in this country is not to fix the broken health care system or stop the unnecessary wars, but to make sure that elected officials feel 100% protected from the consequences of their actions because someday, Americans might actually protest something meaningful instead of some narcissist's personal grievance that he didn't win an election and line up outside the Capitol with the guillotines sharpened and ready to go for a government that doesn't care about them at all unless they are million dollar plus donors to their re-election campaigns and it is on that day that your elected officials want to make crystal clear that you better not ever even think about protesting all the ****ty things we do or we'll put you away for years on trumped-up charges because we are your rulers and you are just serfs we need every 2-4 years.
concordtom
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tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

The next place to look is who the 16 judges are that rules as they did. I am suspicious we might find some potential judicial trends because on its face using S-O for J6 is out there.

I see this as an instance where
people should be focused on the scope of government (prosecutorial) power and not the J6 result.
Of course you are.
Of course you do.
We don't expect anything less of you.
This post is uncharacteristically ass-hatty of you. Well done.
Well, of course, man!
Your post was soo... soooo.... Foxnewish of you. Well done.
"I am suspicious..." Hahahaha. That's exactly what they put out there for you to lap up.

Here's the point. You've lost your sense of direction. We don't need to be looking for excessive government prosecutorial power. We need to be looking at the people who are trying to tear down government itself.
DUH!

Unfortunately, you don't get it.
concordtom
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tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
I suggest you read anything that summarizes oral arguments.

The DOJ was asked about the outer limits of this application of this statute - What about someone that protests at SCOTUS or a trial court and halts proceedings, or the Congressman who pulled the fire alarm to stop a Congressional vote? Answer: trust us. Perhaps that's good enough for you because all of this happens in a single direction, against those whom you are not politically aligned. But if you could EVER look past your nose and not see Donald Trump you might realize, just for once, that these same excesses can be used against you and yours in the snap of a finger after the next election. To wit, it is NOT about Trump, it is about the normal administration of Justice, equally applied for all.
Ooo. Oh no. I'm so scared. They're coming to get me.

Look, buddy. Here's the point. Trump arranged for a rally to overthrow the 2020 election. He tried in MANY different ways, and very sloppily ended with his bringing THOUSANDS of people to the Washington Mall where he whipped them up into a fervor and told them where to go and what to do. "Fight. Fight like hell."

So, bad on Trump for that. I know you can't approve that.
And bad on the thousands who beat cops, knocked over barriers, smashed in doors and windows, and overall acted like the terrible mob that they were.

This is NOT about stupid technicalities that you are seeking.
This is about smacking them on the ass and giving a punishment so that they and everyone knows YOU CAN'T DO THIS.

So, go ahead and try and use your (crappy) logic on me. But it won't work.
concordtom
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Palestinian Chicken said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.

Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
I suggest you read anything that summarizes oral arguments.

The DOJ was asked about the outer limits of this application of this statute - What about someone that protests at SCOTUS or a trial court and halts proceedings, or the Congressman who pulled the fire alarm to stop a Congressional vote? Answer: trust us. Perhaps that's good enough for you because all of this happens in a single direction, against those whom you are not politically aligned. But if you could EVER look past your nose and not see Donald Trump you might realize, just for once, that these same excesses can be used against you and yours in the snap of a finger after the next election. To wit, it is NOT about Trump, it is about the normal administration of Justice, equally applied for all.
If Democrats invade the Capitol, assault the police and vandalize the building, I have no problem with them being prosecuted. The same goes for the Democratic congressman that pulled the fire alarm.
Except that the people who entered the Capitol largely didn't assault the police (which is why they weren't charged with assault) or vandalize anything. That's why they needed to use other BS laws to charge them with something because the important thing to get done in this country is not to fix the broken health care system or stop the unnecessary wars, but to make sure that elected officials feel 100% protected from the consequences of their actions because someday, Americans might actually protest something meaningful instead of some narcissist's personal grievance that he didn't win an election and line up outside the Capitol with the guillotines sharpened and ready to go for a government that doesn't care about them at all unless they are million dollar plus donors to their re-election campaigns and it is on that day that your elected officials want to make crystal clear that you better not ever even think about protesting all the ****ty things we do or we'll put you away for years on trumped-up charges because we are your rulers and you are just serfs we need every 2-4 years.
I think in war, if you are wearing the colors of the other side, moving in the direction of the other side, and yell the slogans of the other side, typically you get shot and they drop bombs on you. They don't go and interview everyone and see if they were shooting a gun or holding a gun. No. You have identified yourself as an enemy combatant.

All those who were part of the mob who invaded the capitol were part of an enemy mob who was part of a Coup d'Etat effort. Too bad for them if they were TOO DUMB to realize it.



I guess you just want to prosecute the people who delivered the mob to the capitol, smashed the cops. Those INSIDE the Trojan Horse are innocent, because they get to say, "Gosh, I was simply out for a stroll."

No, actually, you DON'T WANT all those who delivered the mob to the Capitol to be prosecuted, do you?



Get a clue. I mean, I just can't believe the MAGA thinks Jan6 should just be left alone.
Incredulous!
bearister
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Let them put these words of Kari Lake on their spin wheel and see what space it stops on HYPERBOLE?

Kari Lake suggests supporters 'strap on a Glock' to be ready for 2024

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/kari-lake-suggests-supporters-strap-glock-ready-2024-rcna147902



*Kari Lake and the people at that rally know what I know: There are enough White Supremacists in the military and the police forces to back a tRump coup.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
concordtom
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Enemy Combatant.
Who cares if she has boobs and wears makeup.
calbear93
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concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

concordtom said:

If 15 of 16 have ruled its a valid application of prosecutorial law, I'd like the chances of that percentage not being overturned by Supreme Court.

However, with this group, one never knows. I suppose we'll see just how in the bag they are with this case and trump's forever immunity claim is.

Are you familiar with Sarbanes-Oxley? Remember the big banking crisis from like 20 years ago. It's about that. Its intent is to require financial institutions to perform assorted audit and other actions to safeguard the industry.



Yes. I used to be subject to it and had to sign for it.

New laws are written when previously unforeseen things that don't quite seem right occur.

I'll be looking for a book on New Anti Trump laws to be written at some point in the future as everyone decides, "oh ***** We're not going to do THAT again!"
What did you have to sign under SOX?

Were you a CEO or CFO of a public company required to submit certification with periodic reports? I think you are getting your story mixed up.

SOX wasn't really about banking or derivatives. You may be thinking about Dodd Frank.

SOX came from the Enron, Worldcom, and Adelphia wrongdoing, and it required enhanced independence of auditors (remember the blow up of Arthur Andersen), oversight of the audit, audit fees, and audit engagement to the Audit Committee, creation of PCAOB with oversight by the SEC to oversee the auditors, enhanced independence of the Audit Committee members, enhanced internal control over financial reporting, audit of not only financial statement but internal controls by the auditors, CEO and CFO certification (both criminal and civil) filed with 10-Qs and 10-Ks so that top leaders couldn't pretend they were not aware of lack of internal control, mandated disclosure controls and procedures (all disclosure in SEC filings) in addition to internal control over financial reporting (control on integrity of financial reporting), prohibition against loans by companies to officers (Adelphia), prohibition on insiders trading during savings plan blackout (Worldcom), and prohibition against obstruction in light of Arthur Andersen and Enron shredding documents to obstruct investigation.

If they need to rely on financial reporting based SOX laws to bring charges against people raiding Capitol Hill, the net was cast too wide. I say this as someone who believes January 6th was an act of insurrection.
concordtom
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To be honest with you, I don't recall. I just remember our compliance people talking about it and going over reams of our activity and making us sign stuff.
Fair enough, you may have called me out here.
The original post I was responding to asked if I even knew what it was.
Dude wants to let people off on technicalities by claiming that white collar crimes do not apply to violent insurrections aimed at a coup.
calbear93
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concordtom said:

To be honest with you, I don't recall. I just remember our compliance people talking about it and going over reams of our activity and making us sign stuff.
Fair enough, you may have called me out here.
The original post I was responding to asked if I even knew what it was.
Dude wants to let people off on technicalities by claiming that white collar crimes do not apply to violent insurrections aimed at a coup.
Again, if you worked for a fund as you mentioned, why would your compliance folks talk to you about SOX as if you were a publicly traded company even if you were an investment advisor under the '40 Act and make you sign stuff. That makes no sense.
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