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Thread: Recruiting - Monty at Cal vs Monty at Stanford

  1. #1
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    Recruiting - Monty at Cal vs Monty at Stanford

    We all agree that to date, Montgomery has failed to recruit any outstanding big men for Cal. Some claimed that Ben Braun did a much better job at recruiting bigs than Montgomery, but in a recent thread I showed that over the first 5 years, Braun did not recruit any good big men for Cal, and the jury is still out as to whether any of the current Cal bigs will turn out to be very good players.

    It has also been claimed by some that Montgomery did a much better job of recruiting bigs at Stanford. I decided to look again at his recruiting for the first five years at Cal vs his first five years at Stanford.

    Montgomery arrived at Stanford in 1986. His first decent big recruit was Andrew Vlahov in 1987, At 6-7, I’m not sure you can consider him a big. But he was a serviceable forward, starting for three years, averaging about 9 points and 5.3 rebounds. I’d consider Vlahov to be about the equal of Kravish or Solomon, but others may differ.

    In 1988, he brought in Adam Keefe, a fine center/forward, who started for three years and averaged 22 points and 10 rebounds, clearly a much better big man than anyone he has recruited to Cal.

    In 1989, he brought in Paul Garrett, and in 1990, he brought in Jim Morgan. Garrett started one year, and Morgan started one year, and part of another. Neither was as good as Kravish or Solomon that I can remember.

    To make a true comparison between Monty’s recruits at Cal and at Stanford over 5 years, we would have to see all the current bigs on the roster finish their careers. Solomon has nearly 2 seasons left, Kravish and Behrens have nearly 3 seasons left. Johnson has nearly 4 seasons left. Rodriguez and Frid both have 4 seasons left to play.

    I think we can say that Adam Keefe is a better big than any of the bigs that Cal has, even allowing for the improvement they might make over the next few years. However, I would guess that one or more of the current Cal bigs will likely turn out to be better than Vlahov was for Stanford.

    During those same years from 1986-1990, Lou Campanelli was the Cal coach. How did Lou do against Montgomery? Lou landed Roy Fisher in 1987, and Brian Hedrick in 1989. Both of them were better than Vlahov, but neither was in Keefe’s class.

    So yes, Montgomery did a better job recruiting bigs at Stanford in his first 5 years, than he has done at Cal, and the reason is just one recruit, Adam Keefe. Keefe makes a real difference to be sure, but one good recruit in five years vs. none in five years is not as big a difference as I was expecting. I guess most of the good big men for Stanford came later in Monty’s career there.


  2. #2
    There is a LOT of me that wants to give Monty a pass on this. And I get the logic. Braun's class imbalance and then some things out of the ordinary hurt our front line rotation (if Amoke and Max Z where here this would not be an issue)

    However here is the elephant in the room. Do you think that Monty is staying another 6 or 7 years? Because if we can expect no quicker improvement path than the Furd we can't expect to make the S16 until year 11. My guess, as Ursa pointed out, is probably something around 5 + or minus 2.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    We all agree that to date, Montgomery has failed to recruit any outstanding big men for Cal. Some claimed that Ben Braun did a much better job at recruiting bigs than Montgomery, but in a recent thread I showed that over the first 5 years, Braun did not recruit any good big men for Cal, and the jury is still out as to whether any of the current Cal bigs will turn out to be very good players.

    It has also been claimed by some that Montgomery did a much better job of recruiting bigs at Stanford. I decided to look again at his recruiting for the first five years at Cal vs his first five years at Stanford.

    Montgomery arrived at Stanford in 1986. His first decent big recruit was Andrew Vlahov in 1987, At 6-7, I’m not sure you can consider him a big. But he was a serviceable forward, starting for three years, averaging about 9 points and 5.3 rebounds. I’d consider Vlahov to be about the equal of Kravish or Solomon, but others may differ.

    In 1988, he brought in Adam Keefe, a fine center/forward, who started for three years and averaged 22 points and 10 rebounds, clearly a much better big man than anyone he has recruited to Cal.

    In 1989, he brought in Paul Garrett, and in 1990, he brought in Jim Morgan. Garrett started one year, and Morgan started one year, and part of another. Neither was as good as Kravish or Solomon that I can remember.

    To make a true comparison between Monty’s recruits at Cal and at Stanford over 5 years, we would have to see all the current bigs on the roster finish their careers. Solomon has nearly 2 seasons left, Kravish and Behrens have nearly 3 seasons left. Johnson has nearly 4 seasons left. Rodriguez and Frid both have 4 seasons left to play.

    I think we can say that Adam Keefe is a better big than any of the bigs that Cal has, even allowing for the improvement they might make over the next few years. However, I would guess that one or more of the current Cal bigs will likely turn out to be better than Vlahov was for Stanford.

    During those same years from 1986-1990, Lou Campanelli was the Cal coach. How did Lou do against Montgomery? Lou landed Roy Fisher in 1987, and Brian Hedrick in 1989. Both of them were better than Vlahov, but neither was in Keefe’s class.

    So yes, Montgomery did a better job recruiting bigs at Stanford in his first 5 years, than he has done at Cal, and the reason is just one recruit, Adam Keefe. Keefe makes a real difference to be sure, but one good recruit in five years vs. none in five years is not as big a difference as I was expecting. I guess most of the good big men for Stanford came later in Monty’s career there.

    It makes no sense to compare Monty's recruiting in his first five years at Stanford to his first five years at Cal.

    Then he was a low paid coach from Montana recruiting to a school with no history of success in basketball and strict admission standards. Maples was not renovated until 2004.

    Now he is a Hall of Fame coach, with NBA and Final Four experience, paid $millions, recruiting to a school that has had NCAA trips, has already upgraded our facilities with Haas and has the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe.

  4. #4

    is it really necessary...

    ....to start another recruiting thread???

    ...how about we talk about some basketball?
    ‘I don’t need easy, I need possible.’ Jorge Gutierrez

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by calumnus View Post
    It makes no sense to compare Monty's recruiting in his first five years at Stanford to his first five years at Cal.

    Then he was a low paid coach from Montana recruiting to a school with no history of success in basketball and strict admission standards. Maples was not renovated until 2004.

    Now he is a Hall of Fame coach, with NBA and Final Four experience, paid $millions, recruiting to a school that has had NCAA trips, has already upgraded our facilities with Haas and has the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe.
    I still hold hope that Leon will come back and finish up once he hangs em up for the last time.

  6. #6

    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopDreams View Post
    ....to start another recruiting thread???

    ...how about we talk about some basketball?
    Go get 'em, HD!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    We all agree that to date, Montgomery has failed to recruit any outstanding big men for Cal. Some claimed that Ben Braun did a much better job at recruiting bigs than Montgomery, but in a recent thread I showed that over the first 5 years, Braun did not recruit any good big men for Cal, and the jury is still out as to whether any of the current Cal bigs will turn out to be very good players.
    I thought that in your earleir thread you (correctly, IMHO) counted Lampley as a "big" because he played like a big, even though he was undersized.

    And wasn't Tamir within Braun's first 5 years? Not sure if he counts as "outstanding", but I think we could benefit from someone of his level right now.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Frumble View Post
    I thought that in your earleir thread you (correctly, IMHO) counted Lampley as a "big" because he played like a big, even though he was undersized.

    And wasn't Tamir within Braun's first 5 years? Not sure if he counts as "outstanding", but I think we could benefit from someone of his level right now.
    I agree with you on Lampley. I also said somewhere that Tony Gonzalez at 6-6 played like a big as well. Kahlil Johnson at 6-7 was a PF in high school, but it looks like he may be a wing at Cal.

    Tamir arrived in Braun's 6th year. I remember him as the opposite of a Lampley, a "big" in size, but a wing or perimeter player in abilities. Fine outside scorer, but not much of a rebounder or defender inside. Still, a very good player for Cal, and yes, we sure could use him today.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by calumnus View Post
    It makes no sense to compare Monty's recruiting in his first five years at Stanford to his first five years at Cal.

    Then he was a low paid coach from Montana recruiting to a school with no history of success in basketball and strict admission standards. Maples was not renovated until 2004.

    Now he is a Hall of Fame coach, with NBA and Final Four experience, paid $millions, recruiting to a school that has had NCAA trips, has already upgraded our facilities with Haas and has the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe.
    No, what makes no sense is to compare Mike Montgomery’s 5-year recruiting record at Cal vs. his 18-year recruiting record at Stanford, especially when nearly all of the bigs he has recruited at Cal are a long ways from finishing their careers, which is what several posters have done. Just as it made no sense for them to compare Montgomery’s 5 years at Cal vs Braun’s 12 years at Cal.

    Braun had his own problems in the first five years, which were tougher to recruit in than Montgomery’s at Stanford. Under Bozeman’s recruiting, Cal had their Sweet 16 with Kidd and Murray, lots of great players, but the awful recruiting scandals, which hurt Cal and new coach Braun so much, that all he could do was bring in transfers in the beginning. It took many years before Braun could shake that image and recruit locally.

    What does a coach’s pay level have to do with impressing a recruit? You mean if you tell a kid that you make millions of dollars as a coach, you have a better chance of convincing him to play for you?

    Stanford had no history of success in basketball? They have just as many NCAA titles as Cal has: One each. Both a long time ago.

    And what does “the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe” mean? What “flexibility” is needed to sign a top recruit? Are you talking about the hardship cases, where a player does not meet academic standards?

    Personally speaking, Leon Powe was the greatest single recruiting disappointment for me as a Cal fan. I went to several of his high school games, and thought there was great potential there. He turned out to be a just another one-on-one player, who stubbornly thought he could shoot over anyone, and got a lot of his shots stuffed, but still never saw a shot he didn't like. He was the Kevin McHale of Cal basketball. Celtic teammates used to call McHale, “The Black Hole”, because when the ball went in to him, it never came back out. Powe never saw a wide open teammate, even when he himself was double and triple teamed. He wrested control of that team away from Ben Braun, and decided which players should play, and that the offense should always run through him. You can have all the Leon Powes of all the Bay Area playgrounds, and you will still not bring Cal a winner.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    No, what makes no sense is to compare Mike Montgomery’s 5-year recruiting record at Cal vs. his 18-year recruiting record at Stanford, especially when nearly all of the bigs he has recruited at Cal are a long ways from finishing their careers, which is what several posters have done. Just as it made no sense for them to compare Montgomery’s 5 years at Cal vs Braun’s 12 years at Cal.

    Braun had his own problems in the first five years, which were tougher to recruit in than Montgomery’s at Stanford. Under Bozeman’s recruiting, Cal had their Sweet 16 with Kidd and Murray, lots of great players, but the awful recruiting scandals, which hurt Cal and new coach Braun so much, that all he could do was bring in transfers in the beginning. It took many years before Braun could shake that image and recruit locally.

    What does a coach’s pay level have to do with impressing a recruit? You mean if you tell a kid that you make millions of dollars as a coach, you have a better chance of convincing him to play for you?

    Stanford had no history of success in basketball? They have just as many NCAA titles as Cal has: One each. Both a long time ago.

    And what does “the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe” mean? What “flexibility” is needed to sign a top recruit? Are you talking about the hardship cases, where a player does not meet academic standards?

    Personally speaking, Leon Powe was the greatest single recruiting disappointment for me as a Cal fan. I went to several of his high school games, and thought there was great potential there. He turned out to be a just another one-on-one player, who stubbornly thought he could shoot over anyone, and got a lot of his shots stuffed, but still never saw a shot he didn't like. He was the Kevin McHale of Cal basketball. Celtic teammates used to call McHale, “The Black Hole”, because when the ball went in to him, it never came back out. Powe never saw a wide open teammate, even when he himself was double and triple teamed. He wrested control of that team away from Ben Braun, and decided which players should play, and that the offense should always run through him. You can have all the Leon Powes of all the Bay Area playgrounds, and you will still not bring Cal a winner.
    <Sigh> (well more than Sigh, my blood is boiling).

    1) You do realize that Leon overcame hardships as a young man/Kid that blunty 99.9% of BI'er posters do not have a CLUE as to how hard they are. He will have my life long appreciation for what he did and where he came from.

    2) You must also realize (but I fear not) that Leon played his cal career on essentially ONE leg. His explosiveness was/is severely hampered by that. Nonetheless he averaged over 20 points in his Cal career, was named a second team All American and won MVP his 2nd year.

    3) That player which "wrested the team away from Ben Braun" (honestly I found that nearly hysterical to read) helped them improve from 13 wins the year he sat out to 20 and an NCAA invite. The Bears fell back to just a 16 win season after Leon's departure.

    You know. I enjoy our little dialogue here but for you not to recognize that Leon Powe was among the most special basketball players EVER to put on the Blue and Gold in the modern era....I just don't get you...but hey, I guess I wasn't alive for Newell and the wonder of the four corner weave.
    Last edited by socaltownie; 12-11-2012 at 01:40 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    <Sigh> (well more than Sigh, my blood is boiling).

    1) You do realize that Leon overcame hardships as a young man/Kid that blunty 99.9% of BI'er posters do not have a CLUE as to how hard they are. He will have my life long appreciation for what he did and where he came from.

    2) You must also realize (but I fear not) that Leon played his cal career on essentially ONE leg. His explosiveness was/is severely hampered by that. Nonetheless he averaged over 20 points in his Cal career, was named a second team All American and won MVP his 2nd year.

    3) That player which "wrested the team away from Ben Braun" (honestly I found that nearly hysterical to read) helped them improve from 13 wins the year he sat out to 20 and an NCAA invite. The Bears fell back to just a 16 win season after Leon's departure.

    You know. I enjoy our little dialogue here but for you not to recognize that Leon Powe was among the most special basketball players EVER to put on the Blue and Gold in the modern era....I just don't get you...but hey, I guess I wasn't alive for Newell and the wonder of the four corner weave.
    Thanks for defending one of my all time Cal favorites.....and I think it's 3 man weave. Of course, I wasn't around during the Newell era (if I was, I was too young to remember), so there could have been a four corner weave too!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    No, what makes no sense is to compare Mike Montgomery’s 5-year recruiting record at Cal vs. his 18-year recruiting record at Stanford, especially when nearly all of the bigs he has recruited at Cal are a long ways from finishing their careers, which is what several posters have done. Just as it made no sense for them to compare Montgomery’s 5 years at Cal vs Braun’s 12 years at Cal.

    Braun had his own problems in the first five years, which were tougher to recruit in than Montgomery’s at Stanford. Under Bozeman’s recruiting, Cal had their Sweet 16 with Kidd and Murray, lots of great players, but the awful recruiting scandals, which hurt Cal and new coach Braun so much, that all he could do was bring in transfers in the beginning. It took many years before Braun could shake that image and recruit locally.

    What does a coach’s pay level have to do with impressing a recruit? You mean if you tell a kid that you make millions of dollars as a coach, you have a better chance of convincing him to play for you?

    Stanford had no history of success in basketball? They have just as many NCAA titles as Cal has: One each. Both a long time ago.

    And what does “the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe” mean? What “flexibility” is needed to sign a top recruit? Are you talking about the hardship cases, where a player does not meet academic standards?

    Personally speaking, Leon Powe was the greatest single recruiting disappointment for me as a Cal fan. I went to several of his high school games, and thought there was great potential there. He turned out to be a just another one-on-one player, who stubbornly thought he could shoot over anyone, and got a lot of his shots stuffed, but still never saw a shot he didn't like. He was the Kevin McHale of Cal basketball. Celtic teammates used to call McHale, “The Black Hole”, because when the ball went in to him, it never came back out. Powe never saw a wide open teammate, even when he himself was double and triple teamed. He wrested control of that team away from Ben Braun, and decided which players should play, and that the offense should always run through him. You can have all the Leon Powes of all the Bay Area playgrounds, and you will still not bring Cal a winner.
    First, Powe was at Cal three years--missing his second year with a knee injury. Second, you must not know much about Powe as a person and his life to write that kind of stuff. He is the opposite of selfish. He is supporting his siblings--all orphaned at an early age (growing up homeless then in foster care). Did you see where he got the Celtics a championship playing on a once again blown-out knee? He is always described as the nicest, most humble person you can meet. He did not "wrest the team from Braun" he did what Braun wanted him to do: score and rebound. That was Braun ball--find a scorer and let him score. Ed Gray and Lampley did the same thing--because Braun wanted them to. Leon Powe is a great human being who has overcome tremendous obstacles and is a credit to this university.

    LINK

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  13. #13
    Thank you. I may make stupid posts when I try to move from college ball to opining about the NBA but Leon is as close to a saint that cal athletics has produced. If not my all time favs way up there.

  14. #14

    What is the benchmark for Montgomery?

    No point in comparing his recruiting and/or coaching to anything/anyone other than our expectations:

    We hired him as an already-highly-regarded coach so that he might...
    1. Win the right way
    2. Be in competition for conference championships fairly often
    3. Get us somewhat further into the NCAA Tournament than we had been getting

    Whatever combination of recruiting/coaching he succeeds with is fine.

    So far, he's meeting the first goal, meeting the second one, too (albeit in a down-cycle conference) and not yet making it on that third goal. Hopefully, the signing of Jabari Bird will be a turning point in recruiting. Unfortunately, he has a fairly short window in which to succeed.

    That's the situation in a nutshell. What else is there?

  15. #15
    Willie Beamon
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    No, what makes no sense is to compare Mike Montgomery’s 5-year recruiting record at Cal vs. his 18-year recruiting record at Stanford, especially when nearly all of the bigs he has recruited at Cal are a long ways from finishing their careers, which is what several posters have done. Just as it made no sense for them to compare Montgomery’s 5 years at Cal vs Braun’s 12 years at Cal.

    Braun had his own problems in the first five years, which were tougher to recruit in than Montgomery’s at Stanford. Under Bozeman’s recruiting, Cal had their Sweet 16 with Kidd and Murray, lots of great players, but the awful recruiting scandals, which hurt Cal and new coach Braun so much, that all he could do was bring in transfers in the beginning. It took many years before Braun could shake that image and recruit locally.

    What does a coach’s pay level have to do with impressing a recruit? You mean if you tell a kid that you make millions of dollars as a coach, you have a better chance of convincing him to play for you?

    Stanford had no history of success in basketball? They have just as many NCAA titles as Cal has: One each. Both a long time ago.

    And what does “the flexibility to bring in a Leon Powe” mean? What “flexibility” is needed to sign a top recruit? Are you talking about the hardship cases, where a player does not meet academic standards?

    Personally speaking, Leon Powe was the greatest single recruiting disappointment for me as a Cal fan. I went to several of his high school games, and thought there was great potential there. He turned out to be a just another one-on-one player, who stubbornly thought he could shoot over anyone, and got a lot of his shots stuffed, but still never saw a shot he didn't like. He was the Kevin McHale of Cal basketball. Celtic teammates used to call McHale, “The Black Hole”, because when the ball went in to him, it never came back out. Powe never saw a wide open teammate, even when he himself was double and triple teamed. He wrested control of that team away from Ben Braun, and decided which players should play, and that the offense should always run through him. You can have all the Leon Powes of all the Bay Area playgrounds, and you will still not bring Cal a winner.
    That was a rather idiotic post

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