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Thread: Recruiting - Monty at Cal vs Monty at Stanford

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesaxe View Post
    They lost the heart and soul of the 2003 class before Powe got there, and went from being senior dominated to freshmen dominated. And that No. 6 rated class pretty much fizzled from the beginning, with one decent year out of Kately, Ubaka doing nothing for his first 3 years, and McGuire going a way after doing nothing much at all. So blaming Powe for the dropoff is ridiculous.
    Braun lost only two starters from the 2003 team, Shipp and Wethers. He returned two good players, Tamir, a senior, and Midgely. Nearly the entire bench returned. As to the team being dominated by freshmen, that was Braun’s decision. It was his decision to recruit these particular players, and his decision to start all of them. In my opinion, both Ubaka and Kately were not ready to be Division 1 starters. So if the team was dominated by freshmen, that was Braun’s choice of who to play. By the way, why is it a handicap to have a team dominated by freshmen? Kentucky just won the NCAA title with a team dominated by freshmen.

    Most of the assists on the 2003 team were spread amongst 6 players, indicating a lot of team play, with everyone involved. Wethers had 94, Tamir 93, Midge 85, Shipp 70, Diggs 55, and Famulener 36. The 2004 team had far fewer assists, featuring Ubaka with 108. Tamir’s assists dropped off from 93 in 2003 to 44 in 2004. Midgely’s assists dropped off from 85 to 58. Diggs about the same at 59, and Kately had 35. That team played a lot of individual ball, one on one, and the stats show it. That is Braun’s fault. If he could not get those players to play less selfishly, then he needed to play someone else from his bench who could. If there was no one who could, then he should have recruited better.

    Nowhere did I blame Powe for the dropoff. I only disagreed that he did not make a team that was virtually intact from 2003, a 22-9 team into a better team at 13-15. Sure losing Shipp and Wethers was a loss, but Tamir and Midgely were good players, and all Braun had to do was replace two starters, and his fabulous recruiting class should have been able to help do that. If it were me, I would have played Hughes up front with Powe. He also had Famulener who played most of the minutes at the 3 in 2003, or Benson or McGuire. He could have played Diggs and Smith at the point, and Midge at the 2, or he could have made Midge the point and played Kately at the 2. What he did was stick Ubaka out there, who was not ready.

  2. #47

    Losing Shipp and Wether was huge

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    Braun lost only two starters from the 2003 team, Shipp and Wethers. He returned two good players, Tamir, a senior, and Midgely. Nearly the entire bench returned. As to the team being dominated by freshmen, that was Braun’s decision. It was his decision to recruit these particular players, and his decision to start all of them. In my opinion, both Ubaka and Kately were not ready to be Division 1 starters. So if the team was dominated by freshmen, that was Braun’s choice of who to play. By the way, why is it a handicap to have a team dominated by freshmen? Kentucky just won the NCAA title with a team dominated by freshmen.

    Most of the assists on the 2003 team were spread amongst 6 players, indicating a lot of team play, with everyone involved. Wethers had 94, Tamir 93, Midge 85, Shipp 70, Diggs 55, and Famulener 36. The 2004 team had far fewer assists, featuring Ubaka with 108. Tamir’s assists dropped off from 93 in 2003 to 44 in 2004. Midgely’s assists dropped off from 85 to 58. Diggs about the same at 59, and Kately had 35. That team played a lot of individual ball, one on one, and the stats show it. That is Braun’s fault. If he could not get those players to play less selfishly, then he needed to play someone else from his bench who could. If there was no one who could, then he should have recruited better.

    Nowhere did I blame Powe for the dropoff. I only disagreed that he did not make a team that was virtually intact from 2003, a 22-9 team into a better team at 13-15. Sure losing Shipp and Wethers was a loss, but Tamir and Midgely were good players, and all Braun had to do was replace two starters, and his fabulous recruiting class should have been able to help do that. If it were me, I would have played Hughes up front with Powe. He also had Famulener who played most of the minutes at the 3 in 2003, or Benson or McGuire. He could have played Diggs and Smith at the point, and Midge at the 2, or he could have made Midge the point and played Kately at the 2. What he did was stick Ubaka out there, who was not ready.

    Shipp and Wethers were the two leading scorers. The only other players on the team to average more than 3.3 points per game that year were Midgley and Tamir. Losing Shipp and Wethers was huge - much more of a loss than you are willing to admit. Powe came in and led the team in scoring and Kately (also a freshman) finished next behind Tamir and Midgley. The way I saw it the team almost had to start over from scratch, because Tamir and Midgley were not really all that good.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    ROFLMAO

    Leon Powe and Mark McNamara (aka "The Lummock"...My dad and I had a running bet whether Mark would get stripped double digits each game bringing rebounds down TIME AND TIME AGAIN) and their relative basketball skills in the same sentence.

    Thank you SF Bear. I really needed a good laugh after this horrific weekend.

    Leon Powe made the Bears MUCH better each and every time he played. Simple as that and end of story.
    Mark McNamara wasn't so hot as a junior (he transferred to Cal from Santa Clara), but as a much improved senior, he led the Pac 10 in scoring, rebounding and FG %. Lester Conner edged him out for Player of the Year that year because Oregon St won a lot more games. The reason Cal didn't win more that year wasn't McNamara, it was the lack of a supporting cast. We almost snapped "The Streak" against UCLA in Pauley that year. IIRC, McNamara had 35 in that game, which went into OT.

    As a defender, he was decent. As a passer, no, he just scored, instead. We haven't had a center anywhere near as good since. (I LOVE Leon Powe, btw, but he's a forward.) Goodness, if we had the Mark McNamara of his senior year on this year's team, we'd be off to the races.

  4. #49

    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Big C_Cal View Post
    Mark McNamara wasn't so hot as a junior (he transferred to Cal from Santa Clara), but as a much improved senior, he led the Pac 10 in scoring, rebounding and FG %. Lester Conner edged him out for Player of the Year that year because Oregon St won a lot more games. The reason Cal didn't win more that year wasn't McNamara, it was the lack of a supporting cast. We almost snapped "The Streak" against UCLA in Pauley that year. IIRC, McNamara had 35 in that game, which went into OT.

    As a defender, he was decent. As a passer, no, he just scored, instead. We haven't had a center anywhere near as good since. (I LOVE Leon Powe, btw, but he's a forward.) Goodness, if we had the Mark McNamara of his senior year on this year's team, we'd be off to the races.
    Mark was not perfect, but in his senior year he was one high percentage low post threat.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by south bender View Post
    Mark was not perfect, but in his senior year he was one high percentage low post threat.
    I wonder how many rebounds MM gave up, on both ends, by CONTINUALLY, bringing the ball down to get it stripped? God it was painful to watch.

  6. #51

    At that time

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrig View Post
    Shipp and Wethers were the two leading scorers. The only other players on the team to average more than 3.3 points per game that year were Midgley and Tamir. Losing Shipp and Wethers was huge - much more of a loss than you are willing to admit. Powe came in and led the team in scoring and Kately (also a freshman) finished next behind Tamir and Midgley. The way I saw it the team almost had to start over from scratch, because Tamir and Midgley were not really all that good.
    I was close to the program and spent a lot of time at practice and with the coaches. Couple of thoughts:

    - Ubaka was not ready to start and class imbalance was a real problem. Not only were we "forced" to play the four frosh way too much, it created a cultural divide that Braun couldn't manage
    - Midgley did not improve much after his sophomore year. He lost his confidence and was a real disappointment
    - Kately was a stud as a frosh. Flat out stud. Far more ready to play than either McGuire or Ubaka. Had he not had personal issues he would have been a star at Cal. He was our best defender the day he stepped on the court and he was really, really hard to stop 15' and in.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    I wonder how many rebounds MM gave up, on both ends, by CONTINUALLY, bringing the ball down to get it stripped?
    Not all that many - these stats show for his senior year 12.6 rebounds and 2.5 turnovers per game. And IIRC that rebounding number was more than 4 rebounds per game ahead of whoever was second in the conference.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    Not all that many - these stats show for his senior year 12.6 rebounds and 2.5 turnovers per game. And IIRC that rebounding number was more than 4 rebounds per game ahead of whoever was second in the conference.
    Getting stripped when coming down might not have been registered with the statistician. The rebound may have simply been credited to the guy who came out with it. I am telling you he did it time and time again. It is burned into my memory. My dad (who was a LOT like SFBEAR) would get SO mad watching him. We nicked named him "lummock" - as in "there goes Lummox getting stripped again. One day a blue hair in front of us turned around and said "That is mean". God I miss Harmon.....

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    Getting stripped when coming down might not have been registered with the statistician. The rebound may have simply been credited to the guy who came out with it. I am telling you he did it time and time again. It is burned into my memory. My dad (who was a LOT like SFBEAR) would get SO mad watching him. We nicked named him "lummock" - as in "there goes Lummox getting stripped again. One day a blue hair in front of us turned around and said "That is mean". God I miss Harmon.....
    I saw every game MM played at Harmon and do not share your recollections. I am not saying that his being stripped did not happen, but question your memory of its frequency. I doubt that the stats cited are not indicative of what actually happened.

    Oh, well, without reviewing tape of MM's every Cal game, all we can do is agree to disagree about this.

    Go Bears!

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    God I miss Harmon.....
    We can agree on this!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrig View Post
    Shipp and Wethers were the two leading scorers. The only other players on the team to average more than 3.3 points per game that year were Midgley and Tamir. Losing Shipp and Wethers was huge - much more of a loss than you are willing to admit. Powe came in and led the team in scoring and Kately (also a freshman) finished next behind Tamir and Midgley. The way I saw it the team almost had to start over from scratch, because Tamir and Midgley were not really all that good.
    It is technically true that Shipp and Wethers were the two leading scorers, but you are cherry-picking a little. Amit Tamir scored only 6 points less than Wethers for the whole season, as he averaged 14.9 pts to 15.1 for Wethers. Tamir had more rebounds than either Shipp or Wethers, and had 93 assists to Wethers 94. Wethers was an exciting athletic player, but Tamir was as good a player or better. Midgely scored and averaged more points on the 2004 team than he did in 2003.

    Of course, losing Shipp and Wethers was a big loss. But other than bench player Donte Smith, Braun lost no one else from 2003. Losing your best scorer, and another good scorer, and retaining your best rebounder, your best point guard, plus your starting center, Gabe Hughes, and also Conor Famulener, David Paris, AJ Diggs, Rod Benson, and Martin Smith is not starting over. You lost two good players, and supposedly had four great freshmen coming in. We all expected more from that 2004 team.

    So what Braun did was bench the starting center, Hughes, bench the #6 man Famulener, and give him a much smaller role, and move Midgely, the starting point guard over to the off guard position, and start 3 freshmen. It was Braun who started over, when he didn’t have to, and should not have, in my opinion. Braun should have played his veterans, and worked his freshmen in gradually, except for Powe, who was ready to start the day he arrived.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrig View Post
    Losing Shipp and Wethers was huge - much more of a loss than you are willing to admit.
    I have to believe he knows this, but that won't stop him from cherry-picking meaningless stats to try and win another ridiculousness argument - this time to say that Powe was a huge disappointment.

    Edit: Oops, I see SFCityBear has already responded. Apparently he has abandoned his position that the following year was unsuccessful due to Powe being the biggest disappointment ever, and is now chalking it up to Braun choosing to start over.
    Last edited by Civil Bear; 12-21-2012 at 06:34 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by socaltownie View Post
    LOL. I love how you project.
    As long as we are being insulting, let me show you how it is done.....

    I would refer to YOUR generation as the UNREALISTIC generation - believing that you can have Medicare work when you take out $5 dollars for every $1 dollar invested. Your generation also gave us People's Park, turned the Berkeley streets into goat trails and believes that simply by listening to the Beatles you could somehow make everything turn out all right. Please, the idea that Boomers have ANYTHING to say about "team" and not "Me" is pretty ludicrous to those of us that will be, our entire lives, paying off the debt you have wrung up.

    But perhaps that is why I am REALISTIC. You seem to think I _LIKE_ the way things are. I do not. But to believe we are somehow going back to the rosey pete newell days of old is just ridiculous. The game has CHANGED. Sometimes you really CAN'T go back and, while admirable, I often look at things and see how they ARE rather than Dream about how they might be.

    But here is the thing you should note. NO ONE on this board is rallying to your attack of Leon Powe. The vast majority know that he was a great ball players, a great teammate, and a guy who made us proud to be Bears fan.

    The fact that he was from Oakland just is icing on the cake.
    I was making an honest effort to describe why you and I might differ. You seem to take offense easily, and yet are quite liberal with dispensing insults yourself. I certainly had no intention of insulting you. If you were insulted, then I apologize.

    I painstakingly try to go through your posts and answer point by point. You, on the other hand, answer my posts with hyperbole, exaggeration, emotion. You never answer any questions that I ask you. I give my observation on what Leon Powe’s style of playing basketball looks like, and you respond by describing what a victim he was, in his personal life and with his injured leg, which had nothing whatever to do with the style of his basketball.

    My mention of one weakness in Powe’s game is not an attack, it is an observation, and one that you somehow missed, that’s all. I go to games with about a dozen former teammates and classmates, all my age, and all of them pretty much agree with me about Leon Powe’s style of play. A very good player, who could have been better, and made his teams more successful. It was Ben Braun’s responsibility to coach him in the proper fundamentals and style of team play, and Braun did not do it well. If I were the coach, and Powe was available today, would I recruit him? Absolutely yes, I would.

    If you insist on insulting me, then you need to insult the correct generation. I am no “Boomer”. I graduated Cal several years before People’s Park, so you can’t pin that on me, and you can’t pin the flaws of Medicare on me either. My generation was the one which brought civil rights to blacks with marches in the South, facing down the police, the guns, and the guys in the white sheets (I was there at the tail end of that). This enabled a lot of blacks to get opportunities to play basketball, so you could enjoy watching them. Also, my generation demonstrated enough to change public opinion and that helped get us out of the Vietnam War. (For that one, I stared down 50 caliber machine guns and fixed bayonets in a march on the Pentagon.) My generation probably did a lot of bad things too, as every generation has done, and I’m sure you have a lot of things to blame us for. So go ahead and insult away.

    I AM offended by your constant ridicule of Pete Newell. You do not understand that selfish basketball is a loser today just as it was since before Newell’s time. Did you see how futile it was for Justin Cobbs to try and take over the Wisconsin game by himself? Did you see how ineffective Alan Crabbe was when he tried to win the Creighton game by himself? If an opponent had even one selfish player, Newell would exploit that weakness and beat that team.

    You call yourself a realist? You, my friend, live in a fantasy world. You wrote that Mark McNamara had 10 or more rebounds stripped in each game. I have played in, coached, or watched a few thousand basketball games, and I have never seen any rebounder stripped 10 times in a single game. I challenge you to give an example of even one game where this happened, to McNamara, or to anyone else. It is interesting that you can remember all these many McNamara rebounds being stripped, and yet you failed to see Leon Powe force a single shot or get a single shot blocked. You have fallen in love with Powe, and are blind to any faults, but you have contempt for MM, and are blind to his virtues. Not much realism in either case.

    You also write that I dream about returning to Pete Newell basketball. Many of Newell’s concepts are applicable today, but even he would have said he would not coach the same way today as he did in his prime. He was an innovator, always a step ahead of the other coaches, changing the game, not just reacting to the changes in it. He was one jump ahead of the coaches then, and he would be one jump ahead today.

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCityBear View Post
    You seem to take offense easily, and yet are quite liberal with dispensing insults yourself.
    Pot meets the kettle...again...


  15. #60
    Ho ho ho!
    Meeerrrrrrrryyyyy Christmas, you two!

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