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  (#16) Old
slider643 slider643 is offline
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12-23-2012, 01:52 PM

If we run our offense similar to LaTech, you'll also notice that Franklin likes to attack wide in the passing game. There aren't a lot of routes designed to go over the middle. Most of the passes there have been second or third options or check downs. I'm guessing this is to pare down the offense even further.

It's much easier to make passing reads on the outside where there is no robber or bandit and fewer LB's. You don't have to see the whole field to make the right decision, unlike over the middle where you need to understand what the safeties and LB's are doing to find the right window. Looking wide only, if the safeties move to help over, the read is under. If the safeties don't move to help, you read deep to a fade, post or comeback. This is really evident when LaTech would pass out of their diamond formation.

It's really amazing how much they've stripped down the concepts to those with high probabilities of success and avoiding those that have a high probability of catastrophic failure. I'm really looking forward to how we will look next season.
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SonOfCalVa SonOfCalVa is online now
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12-23-2012, 01:52 PM

Very informative posts from all --- THANKS

Theder brought in Mouse Davis from Portland State to install the Run and Shoot, which worked unbelievably great, until the QB went down. Easy points were put up but then it was straight down-hill.
Dykes won't have just one QB ready so that probably (for a nice change) won't be a big concern.

Any of you guys who are studying and analyzing the BearRaid offense know how BearRaid offense compares to the Run and Shoot. That depended on the QB and receivers being on the same page as far as reads were concerned. It was amazing to watch, until ...

Mouse didn't last the season because the backup QB could not execute and the offense fell apart. We have much better personnel than back then and a more astute and cohesive coaching staff.
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BAyers3 BAyers3 is offline
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12-23-2012, 04:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Cal_Fan2 View Post
It's a brave new world........


If I never see a HB draw on 3rd and 15+ again, I think I can die happy.
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slotright20 slotright20 is offline
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12-23-2012, 06:25 PM

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Originally Posted by SonOfCalVa View Post
Very informative posts from all --- THANKS

Theder brought in Mouse Davis from Portland State to install the Run and Shoot, which worked unbelievably great, until the QB went down. Easy points were put up but then it was straight down-hill.
Dykes won't have just one QB ready so that probably (for a nice change) won't be a big concern.

Any of you guys who are studying and analyzing the BearRaid offense know how BearRaid offense compares to the Run and Shoot. That depended on the QB and receivers being on the same page as far as reads were concerned. It was amazing to watch, until ...

Mouse didn't last the season because the backup QB could not execute and the offense fell apart. We have much better personnel than back then and a more astute and cohesive coaching staff.


I will take a shot at your question. But let me say theold school, traditional run and shoot I am comparing the Dykes offense to is the UH offense of the Ware/ Klingler days of 20 plus years ago. I see three major differences.

First, less motion. Old school run and shoot guys used to use a ton of motion to identify the coverage pre snap. Now days,the qb and receivers tend to attempt to Id the coverage pre snap and then adjust post snap if they have guessed wrong. Simplification.

Second, Sonny runs a lot more. He uses two back sets a fair amount and traditional run and shoot teams were almost always one back. This is a sound shift in philosophy. There are times when every team must run the football to run clock, deal with adverse weather, etc. The Oilers blowing a 35-3 lead to the Bills was and is always Exhibit A of what is wrong with the Run and Shoot - you can't run the ball and clock when you need to.

Third, and I think Berk18 understands this part far better than me so I defer to him but in the old run and shoot, multiple receivers made reads on each play. I think Sonny has a lot of plays where three receivers run set routes and only one reads and reacts - especially focusing on the reaction of the robber if there is one. Simplification.
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SonOfCalVa SonOfCalVa is online now
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12-23-2012, 07:31 PM

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Originally Posted by slotright20 View Post
I will take a shot at your question. But let me say theold school, traditional run and shoot I am comparing the Dykes offense to is the UH offense of the Ware/ Klingler days of 20 plus years ago. I see three major differences.

First, less motion. Old school run and shoot guys used to use a ton of motion to identify the coverage pre snap. Now days,the qb and receivers tend to attempt to Id the coverage pre snap and then adjust post snap if they have guessed wrong. Simplification.

Second, Sonny runs a lot more. He uses two back sets a fair amount and traditional run and shoot teams were almost always one back. This is a sound shift in philosophy. There are times when every team must run the football to run clock, deal with adverse weather, etc. The Oilers blowing a 35-3 lead to the Bills was and is always Exhibit A of what is wrong with the Run and Shoot - you can't run the ball and clock when you need to.

Third, and I think Berk18 understands this part far better than me so I defer to him but in the old run and shoot, multiple receivers made reads on each play. I think Sonny has a lot of plays where three receivers run set routes and only one reads and reacts - especially focusing on the reaction of the robber if there is one. Simplification.

Thanks.
Two sounds familiar.
Three sounds correct too as I now recall the multiple receiver reads.
Based upon what Berk18 has shown and what's been written as well as all the great links, the simplicity of Dykes offense is starting to become clearer and promises to be fast and exciting.
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berk18 berk18 is offline
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12-24-2012, 01:39 PM

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Originally Posted by slotright20 View Post
Third, and I think Berk18 understands this part far better than me so I defer to him but in the old run and shoot, multiple receivers made reads on each play. I think Sonny has a lot of plays where three receivers run set routes and only one reads and reacts - especially focusing on the reaction of the robber if there is one. Simplification.
This is really the core of it, I think. I'm still trying to figure out Dykes' specific inventory of pass plays since he doesn't have a playbook out online, but so far it seems that passes are more about route distribution than route adjustment. So in the 'shoot you have your receiver run entirely different routes depending on defensive alignment. If the middle of the field is covered he runs a seam, if there are split safeties he runs a post, that kind of thing. In Leach's offense, and I think in Dykes' from what I've seen, you distribute your receivers in such a way that one guy will be open against Cover-2, but a different guy will be open against Cover-3. They run basically the same route no matter what (with the kinds of minor adjustments that are present in every play-book, of course), and the quarterback makes his reads to figure out who will be open.

In a lot of ways, this makes the QB's job like a QB in a more traditional offense. The difference is that when you have 4 or 5 pass catchers going out on every pass play, and especially when 4 of them are WR's, you can attack more areas simultaneously. This includes being able to attack man coverages on one side of the formation with compressed formations, rubs, and the like, while attacking zone coverages on the other side of the formation with floods, smash, etc. Neither side will change, and only one side will come open depending on the coverage, but smart play designers/coordinators can package plays such that one side will come open.

Dykes and Franklin also have a lot more stuff where they're reading a single defender rather than the entire coverage, which makes the offense more like various option attacks and less like the 'shoot. Dykes and Franklin will run what they want to run and build in things that make a specific defender wrong no matter what the defensive call is, whereas the 'shoot looked at what the defense was doing and tried to take advantage of that.

Last edited by berk18; 12-24-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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BAyers3 BAyers3 is offline
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12-24-2012, 04:22 PM

Berk18 :

So do you think we will see more passing since our HB depth chart is pretty shallow compared to the WRs? I know we don't want to be a "passing" offense, but after Bigelow (who I love, but his workload doesn't inspire confidence) I don't really see anyone scaring defenses. Or do you think this won't even be an issue with Dykes?
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Dan2002 Dan2002 is offline
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12-25-2012, 12:17 AM

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For the 3rd time, Franklin calls the play I've detailed above, but on this play the run goes to the right.
First of all, great stuff berk18. Very much appreciated.

Question - in one of the smartfootball articles I read about Mumme/Leach offense, it talked about only having one version of each play. From smartfootball:
"If you flip all of your formations, every time you teach a route — say, a curl or a slant — each receiver actually has to learn two routes, because he has to learn it from both the right and left sides. And the quarterback has to get used to throwing it to each receiver to his left and to his right, depending on each receiver’s quirks. The number of techniques each quarterback had to learn would grow rather quickly."

Have Franklin/Dykes gone back to "flipping" plays?
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SonOfCalVa SonOfCalVa is online now
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12-25-2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by berk18 View Post
Dykes and Franklin also have a lot more stuff where they're reading a single defender rather than the entire coverage, which makes the offense more like various option attacks and less like the 'shoot. Dykes and Franklin will run what they want to run and build in things that make a specific defender wrong no matter what the defensive call is, whereas the 'shoot looked at what the defense was doing and tried to take advantage of that.
Berk18, an excellent succinct summary (and enjoyed the detail) of the differences between the "shoot" and the BearRaid offenses. You and the others who contributed answered my question.

Truly amazing and educational ... when could a discussion like this have ever taken place previously? Regarding our previous offense, which was so often, too often, offensive, the only comments revolved around woulda, coulda, shoulda.

I think we'll suffer, when watching televised games, because the "analysts" probably will have little if any clues about what they're watching. They should study all the links and threads in BI about Dykes offense - but they won't except maybe with one or two exceptions. Most of their comments will probably be silly and horrendously pretentious as they try to describe what they've just seen.

BUT, thanks to the links and discussions here, not to mention open practice observations, Cal fans will have a much better understanding of the action on the field.

Sandy did more than just hire a new coach.
She totally changed the nature of Cal football by hiring Dykes, and his hires are remarkable. Our coaches are a diverse crew with overlapping expertise who, under Dykes, will put together a very cohesive system that fans - and players - should enjoy.

Onward to LOI day and spring practice.
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GBMARIN GBMARIN is online now
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12-25-2012, 08:56 AM

Reading this stuff, I would not be surprised to find out that each week the offensive coaches will put an effort into finding the weakest player (or the most injured) and relentless pick on him to encourage mistakes. The concept seems to be to put a single defender into a no win situation. Few teams are likely to have all-PAC players at every defensive position (especially linebacker).
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SonOfCalVa SonOfCalVa is online now
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12-25-2012, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by GBMARIN View Post
Reading this stuff, I would not be surprised to find out that each week the offensive coaches will put an effort into finding the weakest player (or the most injured) and relentless pick on him to encourage mistakes. The concept seems to be to put a single defender into a no win situation. Few teams are likely to have all-PAC players at every defensive position (especially linebacker).
Sounds a bit harsh but the D coaches will also be working with their players to develop skills and techniques to be successful. Dykes will want his D to more resemble the season before last than last season. He's very aware of the offenses that his D will confront and won't just try to outscore opponents.
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slotright20 slotright20 is offline
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12-25-2012, 02:32 PM

SonofCalVa had a good point about how poor some of the tv analysts are.

I used to like Bob Davie as an analyst. He was really good about breaking the shemes down to a level where the fan could understand it and learn something. On the topic of run and shoot offenses, UH was just tearing everyone apart Ware's Heisman year - 60 points a game, undefeated, etc. Davie comes up with a 1-5-5 alignment as the DC at A&M. Completely befuddled UH and their reads. A&M won 17-13.
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