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2020 Cal Defense Breakdown
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Last: 3 yr ago by going4roses
Thanks for the breakdown. Do you think Cal's defense will be worse with DeRuyter departing?
Either TDR or Sirmon, but two exec chefs can create uncertainty. Sirmon will be fine with support from JW.YLS Bear said:
Thanks for the breakdown. Do you think Cal's defense will be worse with DeRuyter departing?
YLS Bear said:
Thanks for the breakdown. Do you think Cal's defense will be worse with DeRuyter departing?
Between Wilcox and Sirmon coupled with upgrades to personal I expect a jump in production
Wild card : new DB coach
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Hey everybody, this is actually my new channel (thanks for the share, G4R!).
In 2020 we played a ton in essentially this very package, and we used a lot less of our 2-4 Nickel look, with two down linemen and OLB's on both edges. The big question is, was all of this tied to Sirmon taking over as DC, or was it just about OLB availability? In the Oregon game, when Croteau came back, we did play more base 3-4, so that might argue that it was just availability, but this year is obviously problematic for a lot of reasons.
For the argument that it's philosophical, over the last few years Sirmon's talked about developing the "Star" position, which is a common term used to talk about "Nickel Sam" positions (a NB replacing your SLB), so I expected to see more movement in that direction in 2019, although personnel probably stopped it from happening. Also, bringing Heyward in to get the band back together suggests that we could be heading toward more of a Washington/USC style defense circa 2012-2015.
The upshot of all of this is that in these hybrid looks you have much more of an ability to play like both a 3-4 and 4-2 at times out of the same personnel, so it's a way to play more stuff against up-tempo offenses. There were also some effective additions to the coverage package in 2020, which gave us a little more versatility to defend certain things that gave us trouble in 2019.
Of course, scheme isn't a substitute for gameplanning and playcalling, and DeRuyter is just super well-established as a DC, especially when it comes to deceptive use of zone blitzing, which has often been our saving grace. I don't know that Wilcox has ever truly established himself as a consistent P5 DC, and Sirmon even less so. The hope has to be that Wilcox was hamstrung by Sark, and that past lackluster results came from things that were out of his control. At this moment, his best year-over-year improvement was Tennessee 2010-2011 (#69 > #27 in yards/game), and his best individual season was in his one year at Wisconsin after inheriting Aranda's defense, so it's just hard to know what to attribute to him.
I don't know about better or worse, but I am expecting it to be different in some ways. I alluded to it in the video, but Wilcox and Sirmon have never been true base 3-4 guys except for Wilcox' Wisconsin job when he took over for Aranda for a year. At USC and Washington it was really more of a hybrid defense, with three down linemen and 3 LB's, where one of the LB's is more like a standup DE. The NB was then a bigger Safety/LB tweener. If you read interviews with Sirmon at Louisville and Mississippi State, he talked a ton about those hybrid positions, and I always though of that as the true Wilcox D of the 2010's.Quote:
Do you think Cal's defense will be worse with DeRuyter departing?
In 2020 we played a ton in essentially this very package, and we used a lot less of our 2-4 Nickel look, with two down linemen and OLB's on both edges. The big question is, was all of this tied to Sirmon taking over as DC, or was it just about OLB availability? In the Oregon game, when Croteau came back, we did play more base 3-4, so that might argue that it was just availability, but this year is obviously problematic for a lot of reasons.
For the argument that it's philosophical, over the last few years Sirmon's talked about developing the "Star" position, which is a common term used to talk about "Nickel Sam" positions (a NB replacing your SLB), so I expected to see more movement in that direction in 2019, although personnel probably stopped it from happening. Also, bringing Heyward in to get the band back together suggests that we could be heading toward more of a Washington/USC style defense circa 2012-2015.
The upshot of all of this is that in these hybrid looks you have much more of an ability to play like both a 3-4 and 4-2 at times out of the same personnel, so it's a way to play more stuff against up-tempo offenses. There were also some effective additions to the coverage package in 2020, which gave us a little more versatility to defend certain things that gave us trouble in 2019.
Of course, scheme isn't a substitute for gameplanning and playcalling, and DeRuyter is just super well-established as a DC, especially when it comes to deceptive use of zone blitzing, which has often been our saving grace. I don't know that Wilcox has ever truly established himself as a consistent P5 DC, and Sirmon even less so. The hope has to be that Wilcox was hamstrung by Sark, and that past lackluster results came from things that were out of his control. At this moment, his best year-over-year improvement was Tennessee 2010-2011 (#69 > #27 in yards/game), and his best individual season was in his one year at Wisconsin after inheriting Aranda's defense, so it's just hard to know what to attribute to him.
berk18.2 said:
Hey everybody, this is actually my new channel (thanks for the share, G4R!).I don't know about better or worse, but I am expecting it to be different in some ways. I alluded to it in the video, but Wilcox and Sirmon have never been true base 3-4 guys except for Wilcox' Wisconsin job when he took over for Aranda for a year. At USC and Washington it was really more of a hybrid defense, with three down linemen and 3 LB's, where one of the LB's is more like a standup DE. The NB was then a bigger Safety/LB tweener. If you read interviews with Sirmon at Louisville and Mississippi State, he talked a ton about those hybrid positions, and I always though of that as the true Wilcox D of the 2010's.Quote:
Do you think Cal's defense will be worse with DeRuyter departing?
In 2020 we played a ton in essentially this very package, and we used a lot less of our 2-4 Nickel look, with two down linemen and OLB's on both edges. The big question is, was all of this tied to Sirmon taking over as DC, or was it just about OLB availability? In the Oregon game, when Croteau came back, we did play more base 3-4, so that might argue that it was just availability, but this year is obviously problematic for a lot of reasons.
For the argument that it's philosophical, over the last few years Sirmon's talked about developing the "Star" position, which is a common term used to talk about "Nickel Sam" positions (a NB replacing your SLB), so I expected to see more movement in that direction in 2019, although personnel probably stopped it from happening. Also, bringing Heyward in to get the band back together suggests that we could be heading toward more of a Washington/USC style defense circa 2012-2015.
The upshot of all of this is that in these hybrid looks you have much more of an ability to play like both a 3-4 and 4-2 at times out of the same personnel, so it's a way to play more stuff against up-tempo offenses. There were also some effective additions to the coverage package in 2020, which gave us a little more versatility to defend certain things that gave us trouble in 2019.
Of course, scheme isn't a substitute for gameplanning and playcalling, and DeRuyter is just super well-established as a DC, especially when it comes to deceptive use of zone blitzing, which has often been our saving grace. I don't know that Wilcox has ever truly established himself as a consistent P5 DC, and Sirmon even less so. The hope has to be that Wilcox was hamstrung by Sark, and that past lackluster results came from things that were out of his control. At this moment, his best year-over-year improvement was Tennessee 2010-2011 (#69 > #27 in yards/game), and his best individual season was in his one year at Wisconsin after inheriting Aranda's defense, so it's just hard to know what to attribute to him.
First off my bad for not giving credit to Berk18
Second scheme wise
JW/PS vs TDR/Yates what will be the difference maker? Flow of Defensive calls vs OC or individual execution or a mix.
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I will say that Berk is right. Zone pressure / Sim Pressures were one of the highlights of 2019 / 2018. Particularly that 2018 game where we erased USCs OL in pass pro.
Wilcox really evolved in that Wiscy year he and Aranda keep good tabs on each other scheme wise. Curious to see how this evolves, but it's going to be personnel driven (my guess). Will continue to play plus defense IMO, coverage disguise and pressure disguise is where the edge comes from.
Wilcox really evolved in that Wiscy year he and Aranda keep good tabs on each other scheme wise. Curious to see how this evolves, but it's going to be personnel driven (my guess). Will continue to play plus defense IMO, coverage disguise and pressure disguise is where the edge comes from.
killa22 said:
I will say that Berk is right. Zone pressure / Sim Pressures were one of the highlights of 2019 / 2018. Particularly that 2018 game where we erased USCs OL in pass pro.
Wilcox really evolved in that Wiscy year he and Aranda keep good tabs on each other scheme wise. Curious to see how this evolves, but it's going to be personnel driven (my guess). Will continue to play plus defense IMO, coverage disguise and pressure disguise is where the edge comes from.
Hey hey killa
I concur @ curiosity moving forward and how much will the new personal will play a role. As well as the new dB coach.
Makes sense with role of the star position moving forward w/o tdr
Next thought is Shaq and Sua have not faired well in NFL as inbetweeners
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Haha, no worries, I was just pumped to see it posted!going4roses said:
First off my bad for not giving credit to Berk18
Second scheme wise
JW/PS vs TDR/Yates what will be the difference maker? Flow of Defensive calls vs OC or individual execution or a mix.
I hadn't broken down Yates too much before 2019, but when he was DC at Arizona his game against Hawaii was so terrible that it left a really bad first impression. With him as DB coach I didn't see any problems in 2020, but you always have to be careful when someone inherits a unit from a really good coach like GA, so I'm not too worried about that loss, depending on who Wilcox hires.
As for scheme/playcalling, no matter what you run, the most important thing for a coordinator is understanding what your opponent is trying to do, and having a good feel for what's coming next. There is SO MUCH DATA that these guys gather during gameplanning, and you can't possibly use it all in an effective way when you have 10-20 seconds to make a playcall, so it's really a talent for complex pattern recognition that gives some guys a great feel for the game (this is what Tosh had trouble with at Alabama, and politics aside it's another huge reason that we shouldn't have hired him as DC, at least not now). I haven't watched enough of Wilcox/Sirmon as solo DC's to know how much of that they've got, but TDR definitely had it. So, to your question, I'm most concerned/interested in how playcalling will change. Unlike personnel, which can take a while to cycle through and let a coach ride the coattails of his predecessor for a while, we'll be able to see right away whether or not there are several great playcalls per game in 2021.
I think that, on the balance, I prefer the playbook that I expect Wilcox and Sirmon to aim for; when TDR got killed at Cal it was usually from teams attacking inherent weaknesses in that style of zone defense, and Cal not having the kind of overwhelming talent that could eliminate those weaknesses. I think that what Wilcox/Sirmon are likely to run will give them more answers against that kind of thing. But, there are great coaches in every scheme, and there are bad coaches in every scheme, and I'd rather have a great coach running whatever he runs vs. a mediocre coach running something that I like a little more.
That USC game was a masterpiece. It helps that they haven't had a great OC for a while, but that game did a great job of neutralizing their talent advantage.killa22 said:
I will say that Berk is right. Zone pressure / Sim Pressures were one of the highlights of 2019 / 2018. Particularly that 2018 game where we erased USCs OL in pass pro.
Wilcox really evolved in that Wiscy year he and Aranda keep good tabs on each other scheme wise. Curious to see how this evolves, but it's going to be personnel driven (my guess). Will continue to play plus defense IMO, coverage disguise and pressure disguise is where the edge comes from.
Wilcox is kind of a chameleon, and he changes more than most coaches based on personnel. At UW he basically took a common nickel package from his Tennessee defense and elevated it to a base defense. At Wisconsin he went more true 3-4, which as far as I can tell he'd never done before, and then he brought that to Cal by very intentionally hiring TDR. In 2020 we snuck back into more of a 1-gapping 3-3 hybrid in a lot of situations.
This is more football nerd stuff, but in 2020 Cal didn't have a traditional hybrid Star (I mean the position) at the NB position, and so they replaced that physical box presence with a lot of Buzz rotations (OLB/NB covering the Flat, Safety rotating down inside). Functionally they kind of split the Star position in two, mostly leaving Drayden divorced from the front as the coverage guy, and then spinning down a Safety to get a more physical box presence playing as a pseudo-OLB. They were mostly able to do what they wanted given that constraint, but if they can get a true tweener at NB it'll open up even more things in coverage/the blitz game. I thought that was another cool example of a personnel-driven adjustment in 2020, though.
Next thought
Was the stances and techniques that DE/OLB use
I learned the formation influences both the stances and techniques
Was the stances and techniques that DE/OLB use
I learned the formation influences both the stances and techniques
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It definitely can. There are a few different parts to that. In Cal's D, if you're an OLB then you're in a 2-point stance and if you're a DE you're in a 3-point stance, and that never really changes. So, if you're in a 2-4-5, with OLB's playing both edges, then they'll both be in a 2-point stance. If you're in a 3-3, with a DE on one edge and an OLB on the other, then the DE will be in a 3-point stance and the OLB will be in a 2. That means that your OLB's will have pretty similar stances/techniques no matter what.going4roses said:
Next thought
Was the stances and techniques that DE/OLB use
I learned the formation influences both the stances and techniques
The biggest differences in technique come for the DL. In a true 3-4 alignment, they're largely heads-up over their blockers and often 2-gapping, so they're trying to control the guy across from them with the ability to shed and fall off in either direction. This makes sense if you're planning to recruit a lot of size at DL. In the hybrid/base nickel looks (which often line up like 4-2 fronts regardless of personnel) they're 1-gapping, so lining up in a gap and getting more penetration. This makes sense if you've decided/conceded that you're going to recruit less size.
The nice thing about a 3-3/hybrid 4-2 is that you can get into either alignment. Offensive coaches in general would rather block the 1-gapping fronts, because it's easier to know where everyone's going to be. As a hybrid, you can play like that WSU speed D from a few years ago and go for a lot of penetration/disruption, but then get into a 3-4 alignment if you want to give away fewer cues. You do need those hybrid positions to truly play it all well, though (DE/OLB hybrid on the weakside, Safety/OLB hybrid on the strongside).
Here are the looks that I'm talking about:
True 3-4 (OLB's on the edges):
Base Nickel (DE on one edge, OLB on the other, NB replacing SLB):
Base Nickel in a 3-4 alignment (OLB on one edge, NB on the other):
True 3-4 (OLB's on the edges):
Base Nickel (DE on one edge, OLB on the other, NB replacing SLB):
Base Nickel in a 3-4 alignment (OLB on one edge, NB on the other):
berk18.2 said:Haha, no worries, I was just pumped to see it posted!going4roses said:
First off my bad for not giving credit to Berk18
Second scheme wise
JW/PS vs TDR/Yates what will be the difference maker? Flow of Defensive calls vs OC or individual execution or a mix.
I hadn't broken down Yates too much before 2019, but when he was DC at Arizona his game against Hawaii was so terrible that it left a really bad first impression. With him as DB coach I didn't see any problems in 2020, but you always have to be careful when someone inherits a unit from a really good coach like GA, so I'm not too worried about that loss, depending on who Wilcox hires.
As for scheme/playcalling, no matter what you run, the most important thing for a coordinator is understanding what your opponent is trying to do, and having a good feel for what's coming next. There is SO MUCH DATA that these guys gather during gameplanning, and you can't possibly use it all in an effective way when you have 10-20 seconds to make a playcall, so it's really a talent for complex pattern recognition that gives some guys a great feel for the game (this is what Tosh had trouble with at Alabama, and politics aside it's another huge reason that we shouldn't have hired him as DC, at least not now). I haven't watched enough of Wilcox/Sirmon as solo DC's to know how much of that they've got, but TDR definitely had it. So, to your question, I'm most concerned/interested in how playcalling will change. Unlike personnel, which can take a while to cycle through and let a coach ride the coattails of his predecessor for a while, we'll be able to see right away whether or not there are several great playcalls per game in 2021.
I think that, on the balance, I prefer the playbook that I expect Wilcox and Sirmon to aim for; when TDR got killed at Cal it was usually from teams attacking inherent weaknesses in that style of zone defense, and Cal not having the kind of overwhelming talent that could eliminate those weaknesses. I think that what Wilcox/Sirmon are likely to run will give them more answers against that kind of thing. But, there are great coaches in every scheme, and there are bad coaches in every scheme, and I'd rather have a great coach running whatever he runs vs. a mediocre coach running something that I like a little more.
Special words of wisdom at the end there and in language even I can understand! (same for OCs as well as DCs, too)
BearGreg (I believe it was) was opining starting in 2019 that opposing coordinators were beginning to figure out what TDR was doing for us and planning effective counters for it. That what had been unpredictable was becoming less so.
One take away is how critical it is for the QB to correctly and quickly read the defense (and disguises). Why having an experienced QB is so important. One answer to all this is have several game breakers on your offense, so the offense dictates what the defense does (like USC with great WRs in Slovis' first year).
Can the op Ed get a few more stars ?
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The thing that made DeRuyter so effective with all of this is that his zone blitz coverages were so solid across the board. If you watch the last play in the video (the Zone Blitz play), Mills wants to throw to the left based on his pre-snap look, but Cal drops an OLB right to where he wants to throw. He sees that fine and tries to look back to his right where...Cal's shifted the CB inside to cut that route as well. I didn't go into the later part of the down in the video, but when he saw that his backside option was covered as well he tried a panic scramble, but he tripped over his own feet for the sack. Mills is a good QB who sees the field well, and you just didn't see that level of confusion much from him in 2020.wifeisafurd said:
One take away is how critical it is for the QB to correctly and quickly read the defense (and disguises). Why having an experienced QB is so important. One answer to all this is have several game breakers on your offense, so the offense dictates what the defense does (like USC with great WRs in Slovis' first year).
Unless Sirmon was responsible for that, which would be good news! It'll be interesting to see what happens.
berk18.2 said:The thing that made DeRuyter so effective with all of this is that his zone blitz coverages were so solid across the board. If you watch the last play in the video (the Zone Blitz play), Mills wants to throw to the left based on his pre-snap look, but Cal drops an OLB right to where he wants to throw. He sees that fine and tries to look back to his right where...Cal's shifted the CB inside to cut that route as well. I didn't go into the later part of the down in the video, but when he saw that his backside option was covered as well he tried a panic scramble, but he tripped over his own feet for the sack. Mills is a good QB who sees the field well, and you just didn't see that level of confusion much from him in 2020.wifeisafurd said:
One take away is how critical it is for the QB to correctly and quickly read the defense (and disguises). Why having an experienced QB is so important. One answer to all this is have several game breakers on your offense, so the offense dictates what the defense does (like USC with great WRs in Slovis' first year).
Unless Sirmon was responsible for that, which would be good news! It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Great analysis-but wasn't it Sirmon's defense that was causing those problems for Mills? Wasn't Sirmon the D-coordinator last year and Deruyter the "co"??
That's the big question, for sure. I definitely believe that over the last two years especially, all three guys have contributed stuff to the defense. I noticed that particular CB technique last year as well, and you can find it in Gregory's Boise State playbook as early as 2001, when Wilcox was his GA, so it could've come from anyone. So, who was the guy that watched Stanford tape and said "When they do this, this'll be good against it?" It's definitely true that attributing that particular play to DeRuyter could be presumptuous. A more accurate statement would be "That's the kind of play that was especially representative of our best defensive gameplans in 2018."NVBear78 said:berk18.2 said:The thing that made DeRuyter so effective with all of this is that his zone blitz coverages were so solid across the board. If you watch the last play in the video (the Zone Blitz play), Mills wants to throw to the left based on his pre-snap look, but Cal drops an OLB right to where he wants to throw. He sees that fine and tries to look back to his right where...Cal's shifted the CB inside to cut that route as well. I didn't go into the later part of the down in the video, but when he saw that his backside option was covered as well he tried a panic scramble, but he tripped over his own feet for the sack. Mills is a good QB who sees the field well, and you just didn't see that level of confusion much from him in 2020.wifeisafurd said:
One take away is how critical it is for the QB to correctly and quickly read the defense (and disguises). Why having an experienced QB is so important. One answer to all this is have several game breakers on your offense, so the offense dictates what the defense does (like USC with great WRs in Slovis' first year).
Unless Sirmon was responsible for that, which would be good news! It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Great analysis-but wasn't it Sirmon's defense that was causing those problems for Mills? Wasn't Sirmon the D-coordinator last year and Deruyter the "co"??
going4roses said:
Can the op Ed get a few more stars ?
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