OT: Simone Biles Choosing to Not Compete

9,653 Views | 107 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by coachdeke
Chapman_is_Gone
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This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I'm operating on limited information. But here goes.

Part of the joy of being a sports fan is admiring incredible athletes who both PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY dominate their peers, especially in the clutch. Those who can focus and excel when the pressure is at its highest. Excelling in those situations is not for everybody. But excelling in those situations is how legends are made: Michael Jordan. Tom Brady. And so on.

Has our society become so woke and neutered that we can no longer worship those with nerves of steel, and we now have to empathize with and embrace the tender, therapist-seeking side of our favorite athletes? Do we truly have to respect it when some athlete chooses to sit out a game 7, because maybe their golden retriever died the day before? Or because their mom failed to send a birthday card? And now we have to hear nonstop in the media about how "powerful their message" was?

Look, Simone, whatever you're going through, I'm not trying to minimize it...I realize it could be as serious as depression or a mental breakdown. I just don't want to hear about it in my favorite athletes. Life is too short. IDGAF. I'm not going to make fun of your mental troubles, or speculate on talk radio about what's going on in your personal life. But for God's sake, I don't want to hear about it. If you're not mentally cut out for competing in the Olympics, bow out before the Games begin, and don't take the spot of someone else who is itching to compete. Frankly, you're a ***** for bowing out and not even trying. Keep your mental issues on the sidelines...none of us wants to hear about them. Give up your spot to someone who can handle the heat of the spotlight, or bravely fail trying, for we as a society tend to admire that in our athletes.

And, yeah, I know, I'm a *****, too, for living in my parents' basement and never doing a backwards flip in my entire life. But at least when I start a game of Fortnite, I finish it.




dimitrig
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Simone has proven to be a champion.

She has 4 gold medals.

She doesn't have to answer to you. She might owe an explanation to her team, but I haven't heard their reactions yet. I did see a lot of support from her former teammates.

You mention Michael Jordan. The dude quit basketball at the peak of his career and then came back to reach the pinnacle again.

It is too early to comment on Simone's possible health issues or mental state, but it's not too early to say that this is a really lame take.


Okay you added this part later:

"And, yeah, I know, I'm a *****, too, for living in my parents' basement and never doing a backwards flip in my entire life. But at least when I start a game of Fortnite, I finish it."

Sarcasm then?







Chapman_is_Gone
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Did Michael Jordan quit in the middle of a season? Or in the middle of the playoffs? Thereby letting down his teammates, his city, and basketball fans across the nation? I don't recall him doing that. In fact, in sports, it is virtually unheard of for an athlete to quit mid-season.

There is a lot about your response that I don't agree with...and a lot of it is not apples to apples to my main arguments and I don't want to take the time to respond to everything you've said. You just don't get my view. You say "It is too early to comment..." My point is, I don't want anyone to comment on it. I couldn't care less. I don't want to hear about it every time I turn on the TV or radio.

And, of course, Simone's friends and former teammates aren't going to say a single critical word about her, no matter how they truly feel about the situation...Why would they? What's the upside?

I bet the last woman left off the team might have some critical words to say in private...


CALiforniALUM
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This has to be the most underwhelming Olympics I can recall. Quite a few hype trains left the station but never reached their hyped destination.

Women's Softball
Women''s Gymnastics
Women's Soccer (still en route)
Ladecky dethroned (200m?)
Men's Basketball (still en route)
Women's Tennis

I'm sure there are others as these are just the ones I have heard about without even trying.
socaliganbear
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Go get laid.
okaydo
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I'm operating on limited information. But here goes.

Part of the joy of being a sports fan is admiring incredible athletes who both PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY dominate their peers, especially in the clutch. Those who can focus and excel when the pressure is at its highest. Excelling in those situations is not for everybody. But excelling in those situations is how legends are made: Michael Jordan. Tom Brady. And so on.

Has our society become so woke and neutered that we can no longer worship those with nerves of steel, and we now have to empathize with and embrace the tender, therapist-seeking side of our favorite athletes? Do we truly have to respect it when some athlete chooses to sit out a game 7, because maybe their golden retriever died the day before? Or because their mom failed to send a birthday card? And now we have to hear nonstop in the media about how "powerful their message" was?

Look, Simone, whatever you're going through, I'm not trying to minimize it...I realize it could be as serious as depression or a mental breakdown. I just don't want to hear about it in my favorite athletes. Life is too short. IDGAF. I'm not going to make fun of your mental troubles, or speculate on talk radio about what's going on in your personal life. But for God's sake, I don't want to hear about it. If you're not mentally cut out for competing in the Olympics, bow out before the Games begin, and don't take the spot of someone else who is itching to compete. Frankly, you're a ***** for bowing out and not even trying. Keep your mental issues on the sidelines...none of us wants to hear about them. Give up your spot to someone who can handle the heat of the spotlight, or bravely fail trying, for we as a society tend to admire that in our athletes.

And, yeah, I know, I'm a *****, too, for living in my parents' basement and never doing a backwards flip in my entire life. But at least when I start a game of Fortnite, I finish it.







Obviously Biles knows what it takes to succeed. But it seems like all the armchair pundits have erased that previous knowledge.

What she does is incredibly dangerous. She has to be physically and mentally all in. She recognized she wasn't mentally all in and checked herself out for the good of the team.

Mental health is usually associated with the P-word (see hanky's thread in OT).

But high-profile athletes are pushing back, including Aaron Rodgers and Dak Prescott.

Heck Michael Phelps -- who wanted to kill himself amid his triumphs in the pool -- made a documentary for HBO about the mental health of Olympians just last year.















okaydo
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BearoutEast67
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okaydo said:








That's some massive font.
Donate to Cal's NIL at https://calegends.com/donation/
Goobear
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I understand the danger in the routines. The fact she recognized that to protect herself makes sense. Obviously she is an awesome talent. If it is mental I respect that too. But the mental thing surely didn't pop up just now. It must have been going on for longer. Nothing wrong with that. What irks me is the hype she herself immersed in to the point of way over the top. She should have taken a step back and have been way more subdued. She didn't and now the expectations are insane and not meeting them creates this *** reaction. Also she took a spot of someone else. I wish her the best of course. She has done a lot for her sport and hope she will bounce back for the individual rounds. However, it would not surprise me if she bows out because it is hard to regenerate all the energy and confidence after all what happened.
BearoutEast67
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I've wondered about the mental toughness of the American competitors overall this Olympics. Men's swimming, women's soccer, etc... sure hasn't met the marketing expectations. We can't blame COVID-19 and the tough year we've all had, as other countries had the same but likely worse experience. I've also wondered about officiating homerism allowing so much Japanese success, but I suppose that happens with each host team.
Biles pulling out of the team effort reminds me of our own football team players' struggles with stepping away from the game until just prior to the season's start. It would be ideal to see them leaving as per usual upon graduation or the next best opportunity arises, or unfortunately when their bodies first say "enough."
Meeting one's mental health needs early and along the way is important, with Biles denial of her sexual abuse until recently perhaps preventing sufficient treatment prior to the current Olympics. It will be interesting to see if she "pulls it together" for individual events after stepping away from the team finals at the last minute.
Mental toughness, fortitude, grit all matter. Yet it comes with cost.
Donate to Cal's NIL at https://calegends.com/donation/
okaydo
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okaydo
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GivemTheAxe
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okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffell's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffell's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the risk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffell's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". In my mind neither one is a quitter.
Goobear
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GivemTheAxe said:

okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffel's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffel's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the rusk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffel's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". I, for one, am not.

That is a joke comparing Saffel to Biles. Ask the football players what they think.
GivemTheAxe
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Goobear said:

GivemTheAxe said:

okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffel's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffel's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the rusk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffel's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". I, for one, am not.

That is a joke comparing Saffel to Biles. Ask the football players what they think.

Better yet, ask the members of the Cal gymnastics team what they think.
Unit2Sucks
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It's a shame Chapman_is_gone doesn't post here any more because he would castigate this poster for starting a thread on growls that has nothing to do with Cal Football. He is dearly missed.
Bear04
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My daughter and I got to meet Simon Biles and she is a tremendously impressive person. We also read her book and it is amazing what she has overcome in her life. She has represented our country well and continues to.
oski003
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Maybe more like Chris Borland, but the day before the Super Bowl? Possibly Jonathan Martin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-most-dangerous-man-in-football-traded-an-nfl-career-for-an-internship/2016/06/07/8087971c-2c21-11e6-9b37-42985f6a265c_story.html

Maybe even Calvin Johnson... but the day before the Super Bowl (not that the Lions were that good)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/calvin-johnson-latest-young-nfl-player-retiring-early-2016-2%3famp
Goobear
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About comparing Mike to Biles? I don't think either quit on the team but I do see one promoted herself over the top while the other one stayed humble.
mbBear
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I'm operating on limited information. But here goes.

Part of the joy of being a sports fan is admiring incredible athletes who both PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY dominate their peers, especially in the clutch. Those who can focus and excel when the pressure is at its highest. Excelling in those situations is not for everybody. But excelling in those situations is how legends are made: Michael Jordan. Tom Brady. And so on.

Has our society become so woke and neutered that we can no longer worship those with nerves of steel, and we now have to empathize with and embrace the tender, therapist-seeking side of our favorite athletes? Do we truly have to respect it when some athlete chooses to sit out a game 7, because maybe their golden retriever died the day before? Or because their mom failed to send a birthday card? And now we have to hear nonstop in the media about how "powerful their message" was?

Look, Simone, whatever you're going through, I'm not trying to minimize it...I realize it could be as serious as depression or a mental breakdown. I just don't want to hear about it in my favorite athletes. Life is too short. IDGAF. I'm not going to make fun of your mental troubles, or speculate on talk radio about what's going on in your personal life. But for God's sake, I don't want to hear about it. If you're not mentally cut out for competing in the Olympics, bow out before the Games begin, and don't take the spot of someone else who is itching to compete. Frankly, you're a ***** for bowing out and not even trying. Keep your mental issues on the sidelines...none of us wants to hear about them. Give up your spot to someone who can handle the heat of the spotlight, or bravely fail trying, for we as a society tend to admire that in our athletes.

And, yeah, I know, I'm a *****, too, for living in my parents' basement and never doing a backwards flip in my entire life. But at least when I start a game of Fortnite, I finish it.





You can worship anyone you want. Who is stopping you? Part of being "woke" is having the courage to stand up to what you believe in. And operating with "limited information"-you have plenty of company with people doing exactly that, embrace them.
I certainly don't care if you don't empathize. I don't care if you like Brady or Jordan more than her. You do know she has won at the highest level before this Olympics right? But okay, you are going to say that doesn't matter for the here and now, and sure, have had it.
I take it your Fortnight comment means you think you have faced pressure, or fine, it's just sarcasm.
LunchTime
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(moved this to the top because its my primary thought on the topic): Regardless of that, though; I think the real reason she dropped out is because she was royally screwed by the pageant side of the sport earlier this week, taking away her accomplishment because other athletes shouldnt even try to do what she can. *** is that? How can you continue to compete if you know the judged side of what you do is blatantly anti-competition?

Further, I dont know if she, as part of the Olympic team, can say any of that. A coach in football cant **** on refs without hurting the team during the game or themselves after. She might get her team punished if she were to say that is the reason.

I could imagine any of the other GOATs dropping out if suddenly their punches were "too fast" or "too powerful" or called back touchdowns because they needed to place a handicap on them. In my estimation what they did to her is no different than that. Who would blame Ali for walking out of the ring if he found out the judges werent counting his knockouts because he was too good.



(edit: as an aside)
I feel like the sexism on this topic is pretty clear.

If Rodgers, or Labron, or Brady, Ali etc backed out because of the mental stress of carrying the sport, the media would **** all over them. The only thing I see different is MAYBE a different time (I dont think that would apply to male GOATs though), or that it is a female doing it.

mbBear
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CALiforniALUM said:

This has to be the most underwhelming Olympics I can recall. Quite a few hype trains left the station but never reached their hyped destination.

Women's Softball
Women''s Gymnastics
Women's Soccer (still en route)
Ladecky dethroned (200m?)
Men's Basketball (still en route)
Women's Tennis

I'm sure there are others as these are just the ones I have heard about without even trying.
You skipping Ryan Murphy intentionally? I'm not a "it's either gold or you suck" person. Medaling means you are among the elite in the world. Do I hold women's soccer and Men's hoops to a higher standard? Sure. If you want to lump them all in together, that's your prerogative.
wifeisafurd
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GivemTheAxe said:

okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffell's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffell's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the risk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffell's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". In my mind neither one is a quitter.

I don't think they are comparable and you do both Biles and Saffel a disservice by saying so. In Safell's case you are fighting through physical pain and the inability of your body to perform during injury. He may further harm another area of his body, and has a doctor telling him to consider stop playing (not going into too much specifics for privacy). But you are talking about a medical condition that with a new injury will become chronic. For a player's career, overuse injuries, which exacerbate over time and lead to permanent disability.

Biles is a completely different situation. It is she is not performing one team event due to "mental issues". One could guess this anywhere from burn out to loss of confidence. But this happens, and if the gymnastics had anything remotely close to a coaching staff they would sit her down. This happens more than you think. Cal has a very famous alumni who was sat down in a game because he lost his confidence or just could not otherwise perform mentally, and that is good because he is a on his way to a hall of fame professional career. In a competitive world athletes have to regroup. Gymnastics really is an individual sport, but they have one team event, and unfortunately the Olympics coaching staff is historically made up of personal coaches and has no team orientation (and even worse things in the past). From a coaching perspective it continues to be a crap storm. So Biles took the action herself. Somewhat ground breaking.

I don't understand why you would even compare them, unless too otherwise just say "something."
GivemTheAxe
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Goobear said:

About comparing Mike to Biles? I don't think either quit on the team but I do see one promoted herself over the top while the other one stayed humble.

Be that as it may, the basic decisions were the same. Do I continue when there is a real risk of serious injury for the rest of my life; or do I stop.

As for stars that are self promoters vs stars that remain humble. That dichotomy has been a part of American life throughout our history. It is part of virtually every aspect of American life teaching even the highest political offices in our land.
Unfortunately the NIL developments will guarantee that it will become an even greater part of college sports.
So yes being humble is a positive character trait. But I don't hold it against Ms Biles that she is not.
LunchTime
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GivemTheAxe said:

Goobear said:

About comparing Mike to Biles? I don't think either quit on the team but I do see one promoted herself over the top while the other one stayed humble.

Be that as it may, the basic decisions were the same. Do I continue when there is a real risk of serious injury for the rest of my life; or do I stop.

As for stars that are self promoters vs stars that remain humble. That dichotomy has been a part of American life throughout our history. It is part of virtually every aspect of American life teaching even the highest political offices in our land.
Unfortunately the NIL developments will guarantee that it will become an even greater part of college sports.
So yes being humble is a positive character trait. But I don't hold it against Ms Biles that she is not.
I just want to say, I wish someone would favorably compare me to Biles. I think I would print it out and show my grandchildren.
GivemTheAxe
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wifeisafurd said:

GivemTheAxe said:

okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffell's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffell's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the risk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffell's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". In my mind neither one is a quitter.

I don't think they are comparable and you do both Biles and Saffel a disservice by saying so. In Safell's case you are fighting through physical pain and the inability of your body to perform during injury. He may further harm another area of his body, and has a doctor telling him to consider stop playing (not going into too much specifics for privacy). But you are talking about a medical condition that with a new injury will become chronic. For a player's career, overuse injuries, which exacerbate over time and lead to permanent disability.

Biles is a completely different situation. It is she is not performing one team event due to "mental issues". One could guess this anywhere from burn out to loss of confidence. But this happens, and if the gymnastics had anything remotely close to a coaching staff they would sit her down. This happens more than you think. Cal has a very famous alumni who was sat down in a game because he lost his confidence or just could not otherwise perform mentally, and that is good because he is a on his way to a hall of fame professional career. In a competitive world athletes have to regroup. Gymnastics really is an individual sport, but they have one team event, and unfortunately the Olympics coaching staff is historically made up of personal coaches and has no team orientation (and even worse things in the past). From a coaching perspective it continues to be a crap storm. So Biles took the action herself. Somewhat ground breaking.

I don't understand why you would even compare them, unless too otherwise just say "something."

If you read the various posts on this thread, you will note that some were clear or veiled comments that Ms Biles was a quitter. I was not the only poster who understood that clear or veiled criticism.
My comments were directed at those posts.
Of course I realize the differences between the two situations. But the basic decision for each person was the same. "Do I continue with a very real risk of serious and permanent injury or do I stop."

The fact that Saffell had other people informing him of that risk, and that Biles realized that on her own (assuming that she did not receive information from a third party) is irrelevant. She clearly understood the risks (just look at the info provided in some of the other posts on this thread or just take a quick look at comments on this topic on the internet).
ducky23
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Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.

Look it's great that our too woke culture allows female athletes to protect their mental health. Cause at the end of the day, ones health is the most important thing. But male athletes don't enjoy this same freedom. And no one is even discussing it. That's a problem.


GivemTheAxe
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ducky23 said:

Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.





[Note I am not a doctor or psychologist and my explanation that follows is in general non- medical terms.]

Every thing that I am reading about the condition and the way gymnasts deal with the situation is that the mind-body disconnect starts slowly in the back of the mind of the gymnast. The gymnast can often keep it under control. But the condition gets worse as the pressure on the gymnast increases and as the complexity of the gymnastic performance increases. Eventually something snaps and the gymnast has difficulty performing even the most basic gymnastic moves.

Often the gymnast can overcome the problem by going back to basics and relearning/reviewing the basic movements when there is no pressure.

Biles reported that she was having trouble with the "twisties" early in the Olympic trials. But she thought she could control them and push through.

I understand that Biles realized that she could not control her twisties and that her body was out of control during one of her most difficult routines. Her teammates realized by the way she was acting. They were really afraid that she would seriously injure herself. She managed to complete the performance but not up to her usual standards. Thereafter her performances went down hill.

Most sports fans can better appreciate physical problems than they can mental problems. It is macho to say just "tough it out". But an athlete knows when she/he can't perform. And IMO it is foolish to ignore those problems when there is real risk of serious and permanent injury.

You say why quit in the middle of a game. Well that happens all the time. How many times have star players been benched for the rest of the game or the rest of the season either because of concussion or to undergo further x-rays/testing.
They are being benched in order to avoid real risk of serious injury.
ducky23
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GivemTheAxe said:

ducky23 said:

Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.






Most sports fans can better appreciate physical problems than they can mental problems. It is macho to say just "tough it out". But an athlete knows when she/he can't perform. And IMO it is foolish to ignore those problems when there is real risk of serious and permanent injury.

You say why quit in the middle of a game. Well that happens all the time. How many times have star players been benched for the rest of the game or the rest of the season either because of concussion or to undergo further x-rays/testing.
They are being benched in order to avoid real risk of serious injury.


I'll say it again. Im only commenting on the reaction to biles' decision. Not on the decision itself.

Also your example is not analogous at all. This is not a coach pulling a football player for a concussion.

This is Tom Brady deciding himself to sit during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because of mental health issues. And we all know that it's unlikely a male athlete would do that. Not because they aren't suffering mental health issues. But because they know they'd be crushed by the media, by the fans, by their coaches and by their teammates. They don't have the same freedoms/protections female athletes have. That's just a fact.

So again. The question I have is why no one is discussing this huge double standard?
Eastern Oregon Bear
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CALiforniALUM said:

This has to be the most underwhelming Olympics I can recall. Quite a few hype trains left the station but never reached their hyped destination.

Women's Softball
Women''s Gymnastics
Women's Soccer (still en route)
Ladecky dethroned (200m?)
Men's Basketball (still en route)
Women's Tennis

I'm sure there are others as these are just the ones I have heard about without even trying.
I see you ignored Katie Ledecky having a dominant win in the 1500m race. It's been a few decades since Americans deserved any hype in tennis and I can't recall any American tennis player being hyped this time. The Women's Gymnastic team took silver. I'm sorry that was a major disappointment for you.

The media, especially NBC in this case, has a vested interest in hyping things up and generating excitement. I can't blame the athletes, after spending years working hard in anonymity, from getting involved and soaking up some attention and advertising dollars. I'd do it in their situation. Very few will receive any notice after they stop appearing in the Olympics.

As for the results, in timed events, I don't see any drop off in performance from previous Olympics. I think that in most sports, the rest of the world is learning and catching up with us. Look at the Olympians from Cal. 2/3 are competing for other countries, not the US. That's true to some degree that I haven't researched at other schools. Eventually that brings the standards up in the rest of the world and bites the US in the butt. I expect the trend to continue in future Olympics.

I agree this has been an underwhelming Olympics because of COVID and the lack of people in the stands. Still, I find I'm watching more this time than the last several Olympics. Mostly it's because I'm still home recovering from surgery last month, but I'm still finding it enjoyable, even if some of the compelling story lines involve athletes from other countries. I think my favorite moment so far was watching the woman weightlifter from the Philippines win the first gold medal for her country and being overcome with emotion.
okaydo
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dimitrig
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ducky23 said:

Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.

Look it's great that our too woke culture allows female athletes to protect their mental health. Cause at the end of the day, ones health is the most important thing. But male athletes don't enjoy this same freedom. And no one is even discussing it. That's a problem.

There hasn't been universal praise. Look at this thread for example. There has been a lot of criticism of her and of Naomi Osaka as well (for withdrawing from the French Open).

In men's sports we have seen athletes quit, too.

Dennis Rodman refused to go on a road trip with the Pistons.

Ced Ceballos decided to go waterskiing at Havasu instead of traveling with the team.

Ron Artest asked for a month off from the Pacers, which they denied.

The difference is that they didn't quit in the middle of the game.

Of course, the reason for that is that an NBA player can sleepwalk through a game if he's not feeling his best. Ms. Biles has no such luxury in her sport.





wifeisafurd
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GivemTheAxe said:

wifeisafurd said:

GivemTheAxe said:

okaydo said:










There are some great posts on this thread about how dangerous Ms. Biles mental condition is and the serious physical harm that can come from the occurrence of the "twisties" as she (and other gymnasts) calls the Mind-body confusion that many gymnasts encounter.

Yet no one has mentioned Michael Saffell's decision
to leave the Cal team. No one on this board dared to criticize him for leaving the team nor called him a quitter who was letting down his team when his team was in need of experienced members of the OL.

Of course Saffell's decision was based upon a prior physical injury. So we all could understand the risk he faced and the logic behind that decision

Everything I have read on and outside of this board about Ms. Biles's condition makes it clear to me that her decision was similar to the decision that Saffell made. If she had continued to perform her acts of gymnastic brilliance suffering the mental conditions that she was going through, she was risking serious damage to life and limb. The fact her condition was a mental and Saffell's was physical does not matter.
If anyone calls her a " quitter" they should be prepared to call Saffell a "quitter". In my mind neither one is a quitter.

I don't think they are comparable and you do both Biles and Saffel a disservice by saying so. In Safell's case you are fighting through physical pain and the inability of your body to perform during injury. He may further harm another area of his body, and has a doctor telling him to consider stop playing (not going into too much specifics for privacy). But you are talking about a medical condition that with a new injury will become chronic. For a player's career, overuse injuries, which exacerbate over time and lead to permanent disability.

Biles is a completely different situation. It is she is not performing one team event due to "mental issues". One could guess this anywhere from burn out to loss of confidence. But this happens, and if the gymnastics had anything remotely close to a coaching staff they would sit her down. This happens more than you think. Cal has a very famous alumni who was sat down in a game because he lost his confidence or just could not otherwise perform mentally, and that is good because he is a on his way to a hall of fame professional career. In a competitive world athletes have to regroup. Gymnastics really is an individual sport, but they have one team event, and unfortunately the Olympics coaching staff is historically made up of personal coaches and has no team orientation (and even worse things in the past). From a coaching perspective it continues to be a crap storm. So Biles took the action herself. Somewhat ground breaking.

I don't understand why you would even compare them, unless too otherwise just say "something."

If you read the various posts on this thread, you will note that some were clear or veiled comments that Ms Biles was a quitter. I was not the only poster who understood that clear or veiled criticism.
My comments were directed at those posts.
Of course I realize the differences between the two situations. But the basic decision for each person was the same. "Do I continue with a very real risk of serious and permanent injury or do I stop."

The fact that Saffell had other people informing him of that risk, and that Biles realized that on her own (assuming that she did not receive information from a third party) is irrelevant. She clearly understood the risks (just look at the info provided in some of the other posts on this thread or just take a quick look at comments on this topic on the internet).
My point is different. If this is a player who lost her confidence (or fill in other mental issue) on the women's
volleyball team, Karch is there to know it and sits her down for the sake of the athlete and the team. On the dysfunctional gymnastic team there is no one to fill that role. If the coach had sat her down, it still is controversial in the media, but the whole quitter thing goes away. For the record, now that the doctors have become involved, she is not cleared for the all around and invidual events.

That all is very distinguished from somebody retiring from his sport on doctor's orders, rather than risk long term disability. Completely different and unrelated analysis, not about pressures of coping with high expectations and extreme attention (women's gymnastics is the most watched Olympic event in the world, involves less mature athletes, and Biles in particular was singled out to draw eye balls)

As for the media, sure, a guy they would be taking more cr@p. There is little sympathy or awareness on mental health issues, and men are supposed to tough it out. The one thing that concerns me is that is another high profile female athlete taking a mental brake will add to the narrative women athletes can't take pressure. Hoping some male voices (especially coaches) increase the dialogue and awareness around mental health.
socaliganbear
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Maybe Simone, the best to ever do the thing she does, will pave the way for the next Richard Sherman or any other male player to "take care of y'all mentals" and do what she did, and the culture war of the week talking heads will have to just deal with it.

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.
BearForce2
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CALiforniALUM said:

This has to be the most underwhelming Olympics I can recall. Quite a few hype trains left the station but never reached their hyped destination.

Women's Softball
Women''s Gymnastics
Women's Soccer (still en route)
Ladecky dethroned (200m?)
Men's Basketball (still en route)
Women's Tennis

I'm sure there are others as these are just the ones I have heard about without even trying.

I have been finding the Olympics quite entertaining actually seeing many other countries winning gold medals for the first time ever.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
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