Article in East Bay times today covering quarterbacks Jackson and Finley. It addresses how the OC we need better qb play. As I read it I thought, both qb's would be better with better offensive line play.
If you guys had to break it down, what percentage of our passing game problems is applicable to qb play and what percentage is applicable to offensive line play?

I know its hard to break down but I'm just interested in other posters' opinions.

Sure good idea. Lets add one more category and stop at 4. Play calling.

I would like to add a fourth factor: high quality H2O
If it worked for the South Central Louisiana State University Mud Dogs, it can help the California Golden Bears!

1.) QB Play
2.) O-Line Play
3.) WR lacking separation
4.) Play Calling

sure, there usually are a lot of different causes when you have inconsistent QB play. Lot of this may be just plain QB inexperience.

As for the oline, so far the run blocking in the first 3 games seems improved over last year. Pass blocking to my amateur eye, less so. Kinda hard to tell because Cal has not been showing much on offense.

wifeisafurd said:

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sure, there usually are a lot of different causes when you have inconsistent QB play. Lot of this may be just plain QB inexperience.

As for the oline, so far the run blocking in the first 3 games seems improved over last year. Pass blocking to my amateur eye, less so. Kinda hard to tell because Cal has not been showing much on offense.

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I think we are forgetting how appalling the o-line was last year. They were about 50% of the time just simply missing rushers on passing downs. It was a free for all back there. I think pass blocking is better and run blocking is loads better. Last year there was virtually no time at all.

Good coaching on the line has made a significant difference. Running plays are doing well. QB needs experience, and he will get better. Plummer was much more experienced and quicker on the throw. Sam needs to get there - I think he is much more accurate than Plummer but just not seeing the field.

I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

So far using suggestions from MrGpac and Rushin Bear it appears that since our offensive line's effectivenes is in question and since we have a quarterback is mobile but short, that Spavital should be running more plays of deception, misdirection, and a rolling pocket more often. Sounds reasonable to me, let's see if it will actually happen.

The most immediate, fixable issue is play calling.

Then it is the QBs and receivers getting more experience playing, and playing together.

Wishing you had different players, "better recruiting" etc. is pointless, at least until the off-season.

bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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No it isn't.

bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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no question that Finley is a better passer, but he has a slow release and doesn't have a gun; moreover, he's a statue back there. Kinda hard to pass the ball when you have 2-3 DL's in your face.

OTOH, Jax is a much better athlete, but is really, really inexperienced. (only played one year of HS ball.). Coach must think he gives us the best change of winning -- next year. Those expecting him to get much better this year are dreaming.

bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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No actually it isn't. Ben so far has shown a tendency to force the ball, but he could use more reps as well. I think Space is going with SJ5 because of his upside and explosiveness, and the offense seems more comparable with a run first offense. That could change with different opponents.

It is glaringly obvious that the big problem is QB play.
So last year our OL was arguably worse, but, when given time, and even often when not given time, Plummer completed passes.

Plummer was completing nearly 2/3 of his passes. This is roughly what Finley has done at Cal. Jackson....not so much. Also the OL is giving our QB time at least some of the times when our QB has been completely off target. Also, as for play calling. You can't call plays that your players can't execute, if the problem is the OL, Spav. has the expertise to scheme that. The problem is that, as far as I can tell, Spav. does not think the main problem is that OL. He thinks the main problem is Jackson's accuracy...even when he has time. You cannot play call your way into passing accuracy, which is why you don't see that being done.

Everyone wants to be entertained with gadget plays, deep throws and play action, but Spav. is not the problems and he knows very well how to do that. He did it a ton with Davis Webb.

On to the WRs. This may also be a problem, but they may be stopping in place because Jackson only throws to guys who are stationary. He does not know how to throw guys open (guys on the run). He throws to an open stationary guy.

I know I will get blowback from, at least Calumbus, and maybe even be accused of racism, but I don't like small athletic running QBs with accuracy issues. And nobody is going to sell me on SJV right now. He's got to show me more...way more.

I will give SJV this, he flashes. He has done well getting the ball in the end zone, which has been a problem for Cal. So there is a roll for him.

But the question was asked and I have answered it. It is all just my opinion but, reading between the lines, I believe this is Spav's take also. Spav. had given SJV the starting job but has now pulled back from that. You do the math. Take it for what it is worth. I'm wrong often enough and that should give solace to guys like Calumnus, who, I know, favors dual threat over pocket passing. So I'll just say that, my preference for pocket QBs has not been altered by SJV.

calumnus said:

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Big Dog said:

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bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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no question that Finley is a better passer, but he has a slow release and doesn't have a gun; moreover, he's a statue back there. Kinda hard to pass the ball when you have 2-3 DL's in your face.

OTOH, Jax is a much better athlete, but is really, really inexperienced. (only played one year of HS ball.). Coach must think he gives us the best change of winning -- next year. Those expecting him to get much better this year are dreaming.

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Yes, apart from having a slower release, less arm strength, poorer accuracy, and having less mobility, Finley is unquestionably better.

The problem is when we play Finley we just can't move the ball, get first downs and score. We had great field position against Auburn in the first half and Finley got nothing. We have yet to be out scored with Jackson at QB. All of his TD throws have been strikes, on the money in perfect position for his receiver. The criticism on even those throws seems unwarranted.

We are about to enter the teeth of season (conference) and we need both QBs and likely Mendoza too. I really believe they, and our RBs need far better playcalling going forward. We need plays that get WRs (and TEs, remember them?) open we can't go another year running only sideline patterns with posters complaining our WRs "can't get separation."

However, the two QBs are different and need offenses tailored to their strengths. Jackson needs to move outside the pocket after play action with deep throws attacking the middle of the field, while Finley needs more of a quick passing Air Raid offense, with more playmakers like the Jet on the field for him to get the ball to.

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you either have an Air Raid system or you don't. You have a dual threat QB system or you don't.

Jackson is raw. His mechanics and footwork are poor for a P5 QB. He reminds me of playing street ball -- run around and launch it down field to an open guy. Poor mechanics leads to poor accuracy. Sure, Spav has tutored QB's, but the kind of work Jax needs is stuff you do in the off season, not as you prepare to play a Top 25 team.

BearoutEast67 said:

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I would like to add a fourth factor: high quality H2O
If it worked for the South Central Louisiana State University Mud Dogs, it can help the California Golden Bears!

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Big Dog said:

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That group of comely young maidens catered on the sidelines during the Cal vs Cal State Bakersfield NIT game at Haas. The Cal coaching staff broke a Guinness Book of World Records by drinking 17 cases of water during that loss. Coach Martin actually drank an additional case during his cab ride to the Oakland Airport to catch his flight to Missouri after the game.

The OL is vastly improved from last year. We have slightly below average pass protection and slightly above average run blocking. This is a significant change.

That said, I am still team Jackson all the way, especially with UWs pass rush.

Big Dog said:

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calumnus said:

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Big Dog said:

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bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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no question that Finley is a better passer, but he has a slow release and doesn't have a gun; moreover, he's a statue back there. Kinda hard to pass the ball when you have 2-3 DL's in your face.

OTOH, Jax is a much better athlete, but is really, really inexperienced. (only played one year of HS ball.). Coach must think he gives us the best change of winning -- next year. Those expecting him to get much better this year are dreaming.

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Yes, apart from having a slower release, less arm strength, poorer accuracy, and having less mobility, Finley is unquestionably better.

The problem is when we play Finley we just can't move the ball, get first downs and score. We had great field position against Auburn in the first half and Finley got nothing. We have yet to be out scored with Jackson at QB. All of his TD throws have been strikes, on the money in perfect position for his receiver. The criticism on even those throws seems unwarranted.

We are about to enter the teeth of season (conference) and we need both QBs and likely Mendoza too. I really believe they, and our RBs need far better playcalling going forward. We need plays that get WRs (and TEs, remember them?) open we can't go another year running only sideline patterns with posters complaining our WRs "can't get separation."

However, the two QBs are different and need offenses tailored to their strengths. Jackson needs to move outside the pocket after play action with deep throws attacking the middle of the field, while Finley needs more of a quick passing Air Raid offense, with more playmakers like the Jet on the field for him to get the ball to.

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you either have an Air Raid system or you don't. You have a dual threat QB system or you don't.

Jackson is raw. His mechanics and footwork are poor for a P5 QB. He reminds me of playing street ball -- run around and launch it down field to an open guy. Poor mechanics leads to poor accuracy. Sure, Spav has tutored QB's, but the kind of work Jax needs is stuff you do in the off season, not as you prepare to play a Top 25 team.

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We agree Jackson is developing and has only scratched his potential.

Yet, I am fairly certain we are 3-0 if Jackson had started against Auburn.

We are simply more productive on offense when he is at QB. Even if Finley is a better passer, which is arguable, it does not make up for the advantage Jackson gives us with his running threat. If they commit a spy, that is one less man in coverage or one less blitzer, one less player keying on Ott. Instead people denigrate Jackson <because> he can run, because he hits wide open WRs for TDs without seeing that as a feature, not a flaw.

I don't get the responses regarding SJV's game. Here's a guy who's basically about to play in his third game. For all intents and purposes, he didn't play against North Texas. He's done enough to win his games and whose only loss is to an undefeated Auburn team who was outplayed by Cal. (I know Auburn hasn't beaten anyone of note either but they are giving up points to their weaker opponents either) He's still learning the game and probably the intricacies of the offense. And we want to play a less talented guy who can't beat out a guy who's still learning the game? That say more for Finley than it does for Jackson.

I noticed posters continue to want to see Mendoza. Okay. Here's a guy who has been third string by two completely different OCs. He's been behind four different QBs. The little I saw of him against NT did not suggest to me that he's anything special. Why would you want to see him?

I am not on the coaching staff, but it seems logical to me that you'd want to develop your talented players before developing less talented players. As other posters mentioned, Finley is less mobile, has a weaker arm, and forces the ball. Maybe he understands the offense better and goes through his progressions better. That could be. But if that's his only advantage and potential, then there's not much to develop there.

In order to develop your talent, you have to let them develop their games. That's why you play a Goff early in his career. He got better didn't he?

If you had a more talented or a well established QB, then you start him over Jackson. If Plummer or Garbers were still around, that would be your starter, no questions asked. We don't have that. Let's see what he can do. Finley can get some reps as a backup. I get that. But you have to develop your talent. That's SJV.

Big Dog said:

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calumnus said:

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Big Dog said:

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bearister said:

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I prefer Finley's passing game. Is that crazy talk?

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no question that Finley is a better passer, but he has a slow release and doesn't have a gun; moreover, he's a statue back there. Kinda hard to pass the ball when you have 2-3 DL's in your face.

OTOH, Jax is a much better athlete, but is really, really inexperienced. (only played one year of HS ball.). Coach must think he gives us the best change of winning -- next year. Those expecting him to get much better this year are dreaming.

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Yes, apart from having a slower release, less arm strength, poorer accuracy, and having less mobility, Finley is unquestionably better.

The problem is when we play Finley we just can't move the ball, get first downs and score. We had great field position against Auburn in the first half and Finley got nothing. We have yet to be out scored with Jackson at QB. All of his TD throws have been strikes, on the money in perfect position for his receiver. The criticism on even those throws seems unwarranted.

We are about to enter the teeth of season (conference) and we need both QBs and likely Mendoza too. I really believe they, and our RBs need far better playcalling going forward. We need plays that get WRs (and TEs, remember them?) open we can't go another year running only sideline patterns with posters complaining our WRs "can't get separation."

However, the two QBs are different and need offenses tailored to their strengths. Jackson needs to move outside the pocket after play action with deep throws attacking the middle of the field, while Finley needs more of a quick passing Air Raid offense, with more playmakers like the Jet on the field for him to get the ball to.

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you either have an Air Raid system or you don't. You have a dual threat QB system or you don't.

Jackson is raw. His mechanics and footwork are poor for a P5 QB. He reminds me of playing street ball -- run around and launch it down field to an open guy. Poor mechanics leads to poor accuracy. Sure, Spav has tutored QB's, but the kind of work Jax needs is stuff you do in the off season, not as you prepare to play a Top 25 team.

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The days of "pure Air Raid" were 10-15 years ago. More and more, every system is hybrid.

Agree that we likely won't know about SJV until he has had another complete off-season.

Oski87 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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sure, there usually are a lot of different causes when you have inconsistent QB play. Lot of this may be just plain QB inexperience.

As for the oline, so far the run blocking in the first 3 games seems improved over last year. Pass blocking to my amateur eye, less so. Kinda hard to tell because Cal has not been showing much on offense.

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I think we are forgetting how appalling the o-line was last year. They were about 50% of the time just simply missing rushers on passing downs. It was a free for all back there. I think pass blocking is better and run blocking is loads better. Last year there was virtually no time at all.

Good coaching on the line has made a significant difference. Running plays are doing well. QB needs experience, and he will get better. Plummer was much more experienced and quicker on the throw. Sam needs to get there - I think he is much more accurate than Plummer but just not seeing the field.

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I think you're right about the O-line being better, but I went to the Arizona game last season and thought they were improved, then. It turned out that Arizona just sucked. I watched Barrett Miller at tackle in the Idaho game and while he's big, he does not look real agile. I think a fast outside rusher could give him real problems.

I don't know that accuracy is the issue with SJV. He has a quick release and seems to be on target more often than not. The biggest issue for him is inability to get some air under the ball, and the ability to take something off the pass when the situation calls for it to make it easier to catch.

The fact that our O-line is not going to give him all day means that he has to get rid of the ball quickly. If you throw the ball on a rope and you want to throw deep, the receiver has to be deep when the ball is thrown. Combine those two and throwing deep becomes very difficult. That is where Finley has a leg up. Finley is more capable of putting air under the ball and giving his big receivers a chance to make a play on the ball.

There have also been a disturbing amount of miscommunications. There have been a few passes where Jackson throws the ball before the receiver makes his break, the receiver turns and the ball is on his hands...aka perfect timing.

There have also been a large number of passes where Jackson throws the ball and the receiver never makes their break...or breaks the other way. Enough of those gets in the QB's head and then they start waiting for the receiver to be open to throw the ball....which makes things worse.

And of course there is the moment where "the game slows down" for an athlete. That hasn't happened yet for Jackson, and may take a year or two before it does. That means when pressured he'll sometimes miss the open guy and try to force it to the covered one....like on 4th and 18 with less than 2 minutes left down 4.

This. SJV has a rocket for an arm and needs to corral that a bit. Those two slants that were dropped against Idaho might have been partly for that reason. The only way the "game slows down" for him is for him to be in there. He's gonna make his mistakes. All QBs do.

I don't see Finley with the consistent arm strength to get the ball downfield the way we'd prefer. If he did, he'd probably be starting. His sideline passes are scary. But yes, he'd benefit from playing time and more assertive play calling too. I just don't he has the talent. There may be unique circumstances where the situation demands what Finley can offer versus SJV, but overall you have to let SJV be the best he can be. As you say, we may only get glimpses of that in 2023 but if the game slows down for him, then you might really have something. And we'll be the better for it.

Goof Ball Bear said:

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I don't get the responses regarding SJV's game. Here's a guy who's basically about to play in his third game. For all intents and purposes, he didn't play against North Texas. He's done enough to win his games and whose only loss is to an undefeated Auburn team who was outplayed by Cal. (I know Auburn hasn't beaten anyone of note either but they are giving up points to their weaker opponents either) He's still learning the game and probably the intricacies of the offense. And we want to play a less talented guy who can't beat out a guy who's still learning the game? That say more for Finley than it does for Jackson.

I noticed posters continue to want to see Mendoza. Okay. Here's a guy who has been third string by two completely different OCs. He's been behind four different QBs. The little I saw of him against NT did not suggest to me that he's anything special. Why would you want to see him?

I am not on the coaching staff, but it seems logical to me that you'd want to develop your talented players before developing less talented players. As other posters mentioned, Finley is less mobile, has a weaker arm, and forces the ball. Maybe he understands the offense better and goes through his progressions better. That could be. But if that's his only advantage and potential, then there's not much to develop there.

In order to develop your talent, you have to let them develop their games. That's why you play a Goff early in his career. He got better didn't he?

If you had a more talented or a well established QB, then you start him over Jackson. If Plummer or Garbers were still around, that would be your starter, no questions asked. We don't have that. Let's see what he can do. Finley can get some reps as a backup. I get that. But you have to develop your talent. That's SJV.

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Didn't Spav pretty much drive Plummer and JMS off in favor of Jackson?

dimitrig said:

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Goof Ball Bear said:

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I don't get the responses regarding SJV's game. Here's a guy who's basically about to play in his third game. For all intents and purposes, he didn't play against North Texas. He's done enough to win his games and whose only loss is to an undefeated Auburn team who was outplayed by Cal. (I know Auburn hasn't beaten anyone of note either but they are giving up points to their weaker opponents either) He's still learning the game and probably the intricacies of the offense. And we want to play a less talented guy who can't beat out a guy who's still learning the game? That say more for Finley than it does for Jackson.

I noticed posters continue to want to see Mendoza. Okay. Here's a guy who has been third string by two completely different OCs. He's been behind four different QBs. The little I saw of him against NT did not suggest to me that he's anything special. Why would you want to see him?

I am not on the coaching staff, but it seems logical to me that you'd want to develop your talented players before developing less talented players. As other posters mentioned, Finley is less mobile, has a weaker arm, and forces the ball. Maybe he understands the offense better and goes through his progressions better. That could be. But if that's his only advantage and potential, then there's not much to develop there.

In order to develop your talent, you have to let them develop their games. That's why you play a Goff early in his career. He got better didn't he?

If you had a more talented or a well established QB, then you start him over Jackson. If Plummer or Garbers were still around, that would be your starter, no questions asked. We don't have that. Let's see what he can do. Finley can get some reps as a backup. I get that. But you have to develop your talent. That's SJV.

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Didn't Spav pretty much drive Plummer and JMS off in favor of Jackson?

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Plummer was gone before last season ended.