It was incredibly odd they way his status/situation was handled throughout the entire year.
He posted on his IG with Bryce Treggs in plain clothes with a beer in his hand the day of The Big Game. Didn't seem like a guy who was going to be even in a jersey standing on the sidelines. All signs point to his days of Cal football being over, which is a shame. After a season of this, I believe he is still the best QB of the three.MilleniaBear said:
Nope. Saw him before the Big Game. He didnt even suit up.
How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Are you seriously blaming Garbers for the pick off of Wharton's hands? Because if so, that is incredibly stupid.SmellinRoses said:
Yep. Garbers is not good. Doesn't mean he can't get better but he's not good now. He isn't very accurate, doesn't have a strong arm and has a penchant for throwing ducks - see Big Game pik six that went through Wharton's hands.
Given the cluster at the position, time seems ripe for a grad transfer a la Webb. We'll see.
Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Bowers, McIlwain and Garbers all wanted the ball in their hands to win the game for us. The question is, did WE want the ball in their hands?71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Re: your last paragraph...Big C said:Bowers, McIlwain and Garbers all wanted the ball in their hands to win the game for us. The question is, did WE want the ball in their hands?71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Are you suggesting, even for a second, that this year's team would not have been A LOT better with Davis Webb at QB?
Garbers can be better next year, especially with a better supporting cast. I hope he is, but this is the same conversation we were having a year ago, just substitute the name Bowers.
Not converting on 3rd down seems to be one of the current offense's bigger issues, a giant momentum killer. It's been a year but I recall Bowers making clutch plays on 3rd down.BearGreg said:
Some data here - Passing Stats
Hard to get to a clutch data point, but here are two cuts that may provide some insight
Bowers had a 125 QB rating in 4th quarters in 2017
Garbers had a 123 QB rating in 4th quarters in 2016
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
I wasn't comparing Marino to Montana. (I'd take Montana every time). I was comparing him to Dilfer. Marino never had a defense. I guarantee you he takes that Ravens team to a Super Bowl Championship. (I'm quite sure he'd have won at least one with SF also). Look at Elway. He didn't win when he was the whole team, making clutch plays. He won when the rest of the team picked him up in a very Dilferesque manner.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Look up thread, to the green highlighted box, I believe #14.BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
Quote:
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
I am not sure that I have seen it announced that Bowers has "left" the team, other than speculation on BI.KoreAmBear said:He posted on his IG with Bryce Treggs in plain clothes with a beer in his hand the day of The Big Game. Didn't seem like a guy who was going to be even in a jersey standing on the sidelines. All signs point to his days of Cal football being over, which is a shame. After a season of this, I believe he is still the best QB of the three.MilleniaBear said:
Nope. Saw him before the Big Game. He didnt even suit up.
BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
Passer rating ignores sacks, fumbles, designed runs and scrambles. It also ignores context (i.e., whether the game is on the line vs. other scenarios).Another Bear said:Look up thread, to the green highlighted box, I believe #14.BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.Quote:
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
Too many pronouns in your response - not sure who you think was better. In any event, I agree Garbers performance this year has earned him nothing. Bowers won't be back, but I hope and expect there is competition from a true freshman qb and grad transfer.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
You are confusing good with better. He wasn't good. (Although he was in the okay range). He was clearly better.
And as far as I'm concerned, that isn't the whole point. There is no way in hell Garbers performance this year earned him the spot on the depth chart without earning it in Spring and Fall, especially if Bowers is back. For some reason there are some here that want to pretend it has. Bowers shouldn't have the spot either. They should be competing for it. (But I'm pretty sure Bower isn't coming back)
BearGoggles said:Passer rating ignores sacks, fumbles, designed runs and scrambles. It also ignores context (i.e., whether the game is on the line vs. other scenarios).Another Bear said:Look up thread, to the green highlighted box, I believe #14.BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.Quote:
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
By no means will I claim that Garbers is clearly better than Bowers or should have played over a healthy bowers. But Bower's passer rating on the third down is not the end of the story or (at least to me) all that persuasive.
https://calbears.com/boxscore.aspx?id=19799&path=footballOaktownBear said:
The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got.
The overall passer rating for Bowers 2017 v Garbers 2018 was about even. So if you ascribe great significance to that stat (which I don't) then its hard to argue there is much difference between the two. Having a higher passing rating on 3rd and long (without any analysis of whether you actually converted first downs on those plays) is literally meaningless.dajo9 said:BearGoggles said:Passer rating ignores sacks, fumbles, designed runs and scrambles. It also ignores context (i.e., whether the game is on the line vs. other scenarios).Another Bear said:Look up thread, to the green highlighted box, I believe #14.BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.Quote:
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
By no means will I claim that Garbers is clearly better than Bowers or should have played over a healthy bowers. But Bower's passer rating on the third down is not the end of the story or (at least to me) all that persuasive.
3rd down passer rating may not be the end of the story but 3rd down was worth you writing a whole paragraph above. 50 points of passer rating equates to a helluva lot of fumbles, sacks, and rushing yards - none of which you back up with data.
Yogi Bear said:https://calbears.com/boxscore.aspx?id=19799&path=footballOaktownBear said:
The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got.
Tied for 2nd from season low in offensive TD's for a game (Washington was worst with zero offensive TD's). And he only produced 17 points in his other start.
The myth that the offense scored more with McIlwain is a myth that needs to die.
BearGoggles said:Too many pronouns in your response - not sure who you think was better. In any event, I agree Garbers performance this year has earned him nothing. Bowers won't be back, but I hope and expect there is competition from a true freshman qb and grad transfer.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
You are confusing good with better. He wasn't good. (Although he was in the okay range). He was clearly better.
And as far as I'm concerned, that isn't the whole point. There is no way in hell Garbers performance this year earned him the spot on the depth chart without earning it in Spring and Fall, especially if Bowers is back. For some reason there are some here that want to pretend it has. Bowers shouldn't have the spot either. They should be competing for it. (But I'm pretty sure Bower isn't coming back)
BearGoggles said:The overall passer rating for Bowers 2017 v Garbers 2018 was about even. So if you ascribe great significance to that stat (which I don't) then its hard to argue there is much difference between the two. Having a higher passing rating on 3rd and long (without any analysis of whether you actually converted first downs on those plays) is literally meaningless.dajo9 said:BearGoggles said:Passer rating ignores sacks, fumbles, designed runs and scrambles. It also ignores context (i.e., whether the game is on the line vs. other scenarios).Another Bear said:Look up thread, to the green highlighted box, I believe #14.BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.Quote:
On 3rd and longs (10+ yards)
Bowers had a 134 passer rating, Garbers had an 84 rating.
By no means will I claim that Garbers is clearly better than Bowers or should have played over a healthy bowers. But Bower's passer rating on the third down is not the end of the story or (at least to me) all that persuasive.
3rd down passer rating may not be the end of the story but 3rd down was worth you writing a whole paragraph above. 50 points of passer rating equates to a helluva lot of fumbles, sacks, and rushing yards - none of which you back up with data.
Here is one big difference. Bowers rushed 60 times for -142 yards (obviously negative due to sacks being counted as rushing yards). Garbers rushed 90 times for +398 yards.
There are so many variables (different years, different OL/WR) that you can't conclude much when comparing the two players. That is why I said they would/should both be in competition for the job next year if Bowers weren't leaving.
Bowers third down play was only better if you use QB rating as the only metric. Your argument is circular because you are assuming that QBR is roughly equivalent to (or a reasonable metric of) the quality of QB play. QBR is flawed for the reasons I already stated (failure to take into account sacks, time of game, etc.). Most notably, Garbers gets no QBR credit for his running yardage.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:Too many pronouns in your response - not sure who you think was better. In any event, I agree Garbers performance this year has earned him nothing. Bowers won't be back, but I hope and expect there is competition from a true freshman qb and grad transfer.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
You are confusing good with better. He wasn't good. (Although he was in the okay range). He was clearly better.
And as far as I'm concerned, that isn't the whole point. There is no way in hell Garbers performance this year earned him the spot on the depth chart without earning it in Spring and Fall, especially if Bowers is back. For some reason there are some here that want to pretend it has. Bowers shouldn't have the spot either. They should be competing for it. (But I'm pretty sure Bower isn't coming back)
To clarify, you said not to pretend that Bowers third down play was better. But his third down play was better. That is demonstrated by third down conversion rate. I don't like QB rating generally, But it is one thing to say 130 might not be better than 120 under circumstances, but 134 to 84 is not a difference that any set of circumstances can overcome.
The point about third downs came in response to 71Bears argument that Garbers was some fearless clutch player and Bowers wasn't, so it was making a narrow point about their respective skills, not about their play overall.
Aaron Rodgers' third down play was only better if you use QB rating as the only metric. Your argument is circular because you are assuming that QBR is roughly equivalent to (or a reasonable metric of) the quality of QB play. QBR is flawed for the reasons I already stated (failure to take into account sacks, time of game, etc.). Most notably, Garbers gets no QBR credit for his running yardage.BearGoggles said:Bowers third down play was only better if you use QB rating as the only metric. Your argument is circular because you are assuming that QBR is roughly equivalent to (or a reasonable metric of) the quality of QB play. QBR is flawed for the reasons I already stated (failure to take into account sacks, time of game, etc.). Most notably, Garbers gets no QBR credit for his running yardage.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:Too many pronouns in your response - not sure who you think was better. In any event, I agree Garbers performance this year has earned him nothing. Bowers won't be back, but I hope and expect there is competition from a true freshman qb and grad transfer.OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:dajo9 said:Are you talking about Chase Garbers here or some other Garbers? Because Chase Garbers, repeatedly on 3rd down, didn't take the shot. Instead he panicked and ran before getting tackled before the 1st down marker.71Bear said:Funny that you should mention Marino. He is my poster guy for stats over wins. The SF/Miami Super Bowl was the classic example of why being a complete quarterback requires more skills/attributes than simply piling up gaudy stats.OaktownBear said:71Bear said:How did Cal's record in 2017 compare to 2018?hotlanta said:
How did Bowers 2017 passing yardage compare to the 2018 Garbers/McIlwain passing yardage?
Bottom line - who gives a damn about QB yardage. The object of the game is to win not pile up stats.
I love ya, 71, but I can't get behind the logic in this reasoning. Our record is better because our defense went from middling to awesome. If our defense played each opponent last year as they did this year, we would have won four more games last year. Our offense scored 30 points five times last year. They scored 20 points four times this year. There were two major differences in Cal this year. The defense got dramatically better and the passing game got dramatically worse. The run game with almost the same personnel was less effective because everyone stacked the box because we couldn't throw.
I'll tell you why the passing yards matter. It is like a three point shooter who hits 40% by taking only the most wide open shots and going 8 for 20 on the season comparing to the guy who takes 5 shots a game. Garbers will not make a tough throw. If it isn't wide open, he pulls it down and runs, takes a sack, or throws it away. At some point, if you won't take a chance, the offense can't move or score. It is also telling that the OC goes into his shell when Garbers is in.
Your argument that he does enough to win while Bowers does enough to lose could apply equally to arguing Dilfer is better than Marino. There are 22 positions on the field. Sometimes the other 21 are just better. Garbers did exactly one thing enough to win. Nothing. In other words, he wasn't Brandon McIlwain. He didn't majorly screw up. (though this conversation would be going differently if WSU doesn't coug the pick six or Laird doesn't break through the line on fourth down after Garbers inexplicably slides against SC). Forrest could have done that. I could have done that. We have to stop being so scarred as fans that because the first QB is a turnover machine we think simply not turning the ball over without moving or scoring equals good. Bottom line, the offense moved and scored under Bowers. The offense moved and scored under McIlwain, but he gave up more than he got. The offense does zippo under Garbers.
Doesn't mean I'm down on Garbers as a prospect. He was just a frost. But crediting him with wins the defense single handedly achieved is silly. This year is one big lesson in how poor we are on offense generally and at QB specifically. He flat out wasn't and isn't ready.
I love the staff, but yanking all eggs out of the Bowers basket and going all in on Garbers and McIlwain was a huge mistake. I'm not saying Bowers wins the starting job (though I think he has been unquestionably the best of the three). But going into the Spring with Garbers the only option and no competition (or even back up) is frankly close to a disaster
Forget Bowers for the moment, let's talk about Davis Webb - a guy who made all the plays except when it counted. He piled up a lot of big numbers but no one will remember him in the long run. Bowers was cut from the same cloth. Cal's only chance to reach bowl status this year was to bench Bowers and put the offense in the hands of Garbers. I said that before the season and nothing that transpired this season has changed my mind.
We knew Garbers would struggle at times. Heck, he is 19 years old. He is just getting started. Assuming he receives an upgrade in support (i.e., OLers and WR's), I suggest that we will see a big leap in his results next season. He certainly possesses the confidence and physical ability to be successful. I liken it to a hoops player who wants the ball at a critical juncture in a game as opposed to a guy who chooses to pass the ball at that same point in a game. Garbers wants the ball because he knows he will bury the shot. That is the guy I want leading the team.
Look, Garbers may improve. But if you called for Garbers over Bowers in 2018, you made a bad call and have been bailed out by Bowers disappearance and Cal's defense.
Are you talking about Ross Bowers here or some other Bowers? Because Ross Bowers repeatedly on 3rd down didn't make a positive play. Instead he held the ball too long, took bad sacks and threw interceptions into obvious double coverage. Completions and first down conversion would have been ideal; but running with the ball for a modest gain is far better than taking a sack like Bowers often did.
I was hoping Bowers would play and take the next step this past year. For reasons we still don't know, that didn't happen though obviously he was injured at some point. Garbers' play was uneven (much like Bowers the year before). But let's not be revisionist and pretend Bower's 3rd down play was better.
You are confusing good with better. He wasn't good. (Although he was in the okay range). He was clearly better.
And as far as I'm concerned, that isn't the whole point. There is no way in hell Garbers performance this year earned him the spot on the depth chart without earning it in Spring and Fall, especially if Bowers is back. For some reason there are some here that want to pretend it has. Bowers shouldn't have the spot either. They should be competing for it. (But I'm pretty sure Bower isn't coming back)
To clarify, you said not to pretend that Bowers third down play was better. But his third down play was better. That is demonstrated by third down conversion rate. I don't like QB rating generally, But it is one thing to say 130 might not be better than 120 under circumstances, but 134 to 84 is not a difference that any set of circumstances can overcome.
The point about third downs came in response to 71Bears argument that Garbers was some fearless clutch player and Bowers wasn't, so it was making a narrow point about their respective skills, not about their play overall.
We are comparing different years with different personnel, different schedules, and lots of other variables. Bowers played with a dominant/healthy Laird, better (or healthier) wrs, and arguably an easier pathway (he was the clear starter). Garbers played with a lesser running game and without the benefit of taking first string reps for much of the year. QBR takes none of this into account.
The bottom line is that neither player has shown that they are clearly better overall or in a specific scenario such as third down. If Bowers were willing to come back (which by all accounts he is not), I would have no problem having him compete for and possibly be the starter. But his QBR on third down in 2017 is largely irrelevant.