Should they be expelled from the school they are at currently if their SAT/ACT was paid for? Star your choice.
SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
Key words bolded for emphasis.Quote:
who knowingly submitted doctored SAT scores
Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
Yes, and they should be fined, with the fines going towards scholarships for low income students with good grades.B.A. Bearacus said:
A. Yes
socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
How dumb could these students possibly be to not know something was fishy? The kids are playing dumb. They didn't orchestrate the whole cheat, but they ALL knew they were benefiting from some unfair advantage (unlimited extra time in Houston) or straightup naked fraud (someone taking the test for them or knowing the answers beforehand).Quote:
According to the charging documents, Singer facilitated cheating on the SAT and ACT exams for his clients by instructing them to seek extended time for their children on college entrance exams, which included having the children purport to have learning disabilities in order to obtain the required medical documentation. Once the extended time was granted, Singer allegedly instructed the clients to change the location of the exams to one of two test centers: a public high school in Houston, Texas, or a private college preparatory school in West Hollywood, Calif. At those test centers, Singer had established relationships with test administrators Niki Williams and Igor Dvorskiy, respectively, who accepted bribes of as much as $10,000 per test in order to facilitate the cheating scheme. Specifically, Williams and Dvorskiy allowed a third individual, typically Riddell, to take the exams in place of the students, to give the students the correct answers during the exams, or to correct the students' answers after they completed the exams. Singer typically paid Ridell $10,000 for each student's test. In many instances, the students taking the exams were unaware that their parents had arranged for the cheating.
I find it almost impossible to believe they didn't know, or at least have suspicion. Hey, I got a crew scholarship! Weird. I've never been in a boat! Weird I got into Yale with a 3.3 GPA!socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
but only if they cheated on the reading comprehension portion of the examsocaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
If you read the indictment, it's clear that some kids had no idea; others did. For example for one kid who got into USC, the middleman and the dad discussed how to keep the athletic aspect from the kid, and what to tell the kid if/when he/she received a letter inviting the kid to the athletics orientation the summer before school started.blungld said:I find it almost impossible to believe they didn't know, or at least have suspicion. Hey, I got a crew scholarship! Weird. I've never been in a boat! Weird I got into Yale with a 3.3 GPA!socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
But I didn't their innocence should have anything to do with it. It's a horrible life lesson for them to move forward and benefit without consequence. These kids (and their parents and future kids and parents) need a wake up call to their ego and entitlement and what is right and wrong. If nothing happens there is no lesson.
Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
Okay this may be apropos of nothing, but my brother received a partial baseball scholarship to a very good academic institution (in a major D1 conference). He didn't end up going there but we always found it funny. He did play that sport in high school and was a fine player, but nowhere near the level of achievement necessary to play at that level. Maybe the fact that he was a catcher helped? I dunno.blungld said:I find it almost impossible to believe they didn't know, or at least have suspicion. Hey, I got a crew scholarship! Weird. I've never been in a boat! Weird I got into Yale with a 3.3 GPA!socaliganbear said:B.A. Bearacus said:socaliganbear said:B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
But I didn't their innocence should have anything to do with it. It's a horrible life lesson for them to move forward and benefit without consequence. These kids (and their parents and future kids and parents) need a wake up call to their ego and entitlement and what is right and wrong. If nothing happens there is no lesson.
Yes, very well put, Oaktown! I'll add...somewhat redundantly (now that I actually read the replies!)...wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
TandemBear said:Yes, very well put, Oaktown! I'll add...somewhat redundantly (now that I actually read the replies!)...wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
The problem with not expelling the student who may not have known is that you've effectively expelled an innocent student who was displaced by the fraudulent admission. This is a wrong that should not be perpetuated. Expel all students involved and admit those who earned it.
This is the best course of action. Sure, the unknowing kids will feel wronged, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't attending on merit required for admission.
PS Full disclosure. My kid's right in the middle of the admissions process. I would like to know that admission would be based solely on merit. That said, I'm kinda pissed our college counselor didn't "go that extra mile," if you get my drift! I kid. Jeez, that's not even funny!
B.A. Bearacus said:
Should they be expelled from the school they are at currently if their SAT/ACT was paid for? Star your choice.
Yes!calumnus said:TandemBear said:Yes, very well put, Oaktown! I'll add...somewhat redundantly (now that I actually read the replies!)...wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
The problem with not expelling the student who may not have known is that you've effectively expelled an innocent student who was displaced by the fraudulent admission. This is a wrong that should not be perpetuated. Expel all students involved and admit those who earned it.
This is the best course of action. Sure, the unknowing kids will feel wronged, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't attending on merit required for admission.
PS Full disclosure. My kid's right in the middle of the admissions process. I would like to know that admission would be based solely on merit. That said, I'm kinda pissed our college counselor didn't "go that extra mile," if you get my drift! I kid. Jeez, that's not even funny!
If you do not expel the kid's whose rich dads bought their way into UPenn (knowingly or unknowingly) then they may grow up to be arrogant idiots who think they really have "the best brain" and that they do not need to read or listen to experts, but can get all they need to know from the talking heads at Fox News. Moreover, they will continue to cheat their way through life: cheat on grades, cheat their way out of military service, cheat on taxes, cheat on business deals, cheat consumers, cheat employees, cheat on marriages, cheat on elections...It is important for these kids to learn a little humility, to understand money will not always get them their way. They are from rich families and will be fine, they will still live lives of the 1%, but our society will be better if these future captains of the family businesses learn that cheating is not the way and that facts, science, reason, learning and knowledge matter.
Oh hellz yes!!!!calumnus said:TandemBear said:Yes, very well put, Oaktown! I'll add...somewhat redundantly (now that I actually read the replies!)...wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
The problem with not expelling the student who may not have known is that you've effectively expelled an innocent student who was displaced by the fraudulent admission. This is a wrong that should not be perpetuated. Expel all students involved and admit those who earned it.
This is the best course of action. Sure, the unknowing kids will feel wronged, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't attending on merit required for admission.
PS Full disclosure. My kid's right in the middle of the admissions process. I would like to know that admission would be based solely on merit. That said, I'm kinda pissed our college counselor didn't "go that extra mile," if you get my drift! I kid. Jeez, that's not even funny!
If you do not expel the kid's whose rich dads bought their way into UPenn (knowingly or unknowingly) then they may grow up to be arrogant idiots who think they really have "the best brain" and that they do not need to read or listen to experts, but can get all they need to know from the talking heads at Fox News. Moreover, they will continue to cheat their way through life: cheat on grades, cheat their way out of military service, cheat on taxes, cheat on business deals, cheat consumers, cheat employees, cheat on marriages, cheat on elections...It is important for these kids to learn a little humility, to understand money will not always get them their way. They are from rich families and will be fine, they will still live lives of the 1%, but our society will be better if these future captains of the family businesses learn that cheating is not the way and that facts, science, reason, learning and knowledge matter.
OneTopOneChickenApple said:Yes!calumnus said:TandemBear said:Yes, very well put, Oaktown! I'll add...somewhat redundantly (now that I actually read the replies!)...wifeisafurd said:Nicely stated Oak.OaktownBear said:socaliganbear said:Some of the articles I've read have said they didn't know. In one case, the student was surprised at how well he/she did and even considered taking it again because they might do even better. I'm sure some knew, but unless the school can prove that, I wouldn't expel them.B.A. Bearacus said:Curious why you would presume that they didn't know about this? I would assume that in 99.9% of cases, the students knew what was up.socaliganbear said:I'm saying these kids, who are already in school, and presumably did not know about this, should not be expelled.B.A. Bearacus said:SoCal, to clarify: you are saying that falsified SAT scores should not be grounds for expulsion? You're saying other factors should be taken into consideration?socaliganbear said:
Nope.
So an unqualified student whose parents cheated them into school on false pretenses should continue to take up a slot that could go to a qualified student. I'm sorry - no. If they knew, they need to be expelled. If they didn't know, they are still getting undeserved benefit. I sympathize enough to let them finish the current semester and to say the school should help them transfer. But no, they don't get to continue.
Next time your bank accidentally credits your account (as has happened to me) see if you get to keep the money.
I also don't buy that most didn't know. There is a difference between actually not knowing and the parties shielding them from proof of knowledge.
For the record, the Feds asserted the kids for the most part did not know about the bribes, etc. This makes sense. You don't want to tell you kid they are not good enough and I needed to pay someone off to help your dumb arse. From my perspective, they were admitted under false pretense, and that is all that matters. I may not expel them (that goes on their permanent record), but simply not allow them to enroll next semester. OTOH, the kids might want to reassess their relationship with their parent.
Edit: for the kids that did know, expel the butts.
The problem with not expelling the student who may not have known is that you've effectively expelled an innocent student who was displaced by the fraudulent admission. This is a wrong that should not be perpetuated. Expel all students involved and admit those who earned it.
This is the best course of action. Sure, the unknowing kids will feel wronged, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't attending on merit required for admission.
PS Full disclosure. My kid's right in the middle of the admissions process. I would like to know that admission would be based solely on merit. That said, I'm kinda pissed our college counselor didn't "go that extra mile," if you get my drift! I kid. Jeez, that's not even funny!
If you do not expel the kid's whose rich dads bought their way into UPenn (knowingly or unknowingly) then they may grow up to be arrogant idiots who think they really have "the best brain" and that they do not need to read or listen to experts, but can get all they need to know from the talking heads at Fox News. Moreover, they will continue to cheat their way through life: cheat on grades, cheat their way out of military service, cheat on taxes, cheat on business deals, cheat consumers, cheat employees, cheat on marriages, cheat on elections...It is important for these kids to learn a little humility, to understand money will not always get them their way. They are from rich families and will be fine, they will still live lives of the 1%, but our society will be better if these future captains of the family businesses learn that cheating is not the way and that facts, science, reason, learning and knowledge matter.
How could the students not know they weren't competitive athletes. I don't know exactly how the application process is now, but I assume it is done online and students have to swear that all information is theirs and accurate.
YesB.A. Bearacus said:
Should they be expelled from the school they are at currently if their SAT/ACT was paid for? Star your choice.