Honestly, this will depend mostly on the offense. If the offense can establish a slightly above average running game, improve to a below average passing game, and not turn the ball over a lot, the defense should be in the Top Fifteen Nationally. If the defense has to stay on the field a lot and is put in bad spots with regards to turnovers and field position, they will still be excellent but not develop the stats that reflect their strength.

golden sloth said:

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Honestly, this will depend mostly on the offense. If the offense can establish a slightly above average running game, improve to a below average passing game, and not turn the ball over a lot, the defense should be in the Top Fifteen Nationally. If the defense has to stay on the field a lot and is put in bad spots with regards to turnovers and field position, they will still be excellent but not develop the stats that reflect their strength.

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I agree with your analysis. But these are an awful lot of "ifs".
Same thing could have been aid if last year's D.
Personally I feel that this year's D can be better than last year's D.
Which is saying a lot

GivemTheAxe said:

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golden sloth said:

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Honestly, this will depend mostly on the offense. If the offense can establish a slightly above average running game, improve to a below average passing game, and not turn the ball over a lot, the defense should be in the Top Fifteen Nationally. If the defense has to stay on the field a lot and is put in bad spots with regards to turnovers and field position, they will still be excellent but not develop the stats that reflect their strength.

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I agree with your analysis. But these are an awful lot of "ifs".

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If's and or's are true for every team, every season.

I agree that our ability to manage game and tempo with running will aid D. So where is our MM this year. I have flashbacks of the dropoff in our running game in JTs time when we lost our FB.

But on D itself I think its about the middle still. Can we replace or dare I say improve our run stopping with the player losses in the middle front seven. I see we are longer and rangier at backer and deep at corner/safety. But Palmer and JK?

So yeah how do we replace what MM did for us in the running game with no MM 2.0 and no in line TE blockers?

Who replaces Palmer and JK and how do we read that? I trust JW and TD on adjustments but those types of roles and players you could argue is the essense of football itself.

Prior to last season there were many who doubted that JK had the lateral speed and agility to become a good LB. Let's hope that a few others surprise us this year.

"But on D itself I think its about the middle still. "

Not sure if you are saying our D will be in the middle still - as in it was "middle" last year. By most commonly used national ranking measures (Total Yards (#11), Yards Per Game (#16), Points Per Game (#24)) we were an upper tier D. Conference wise, we're pretty much #2 or #3 by almost all typical metrics.

Certainly getting to an average O will help all those D stats. So I agree with most of the posters that our final ranking will be somewhat determined by our O - but I don't think we were ever "middle" last season

To the original post - if we can get an average O performance, I think our D would pretty much rank in the top-15 in all the aforementioned categories. Not sure how much further we could go without, basically, some more of those 4 and 5 star athletes we've been trying to bring on board

Spoke with Baldwin about replacing McMorris a few weeks back. We clearly don't have a great answer here. He gushed about how he was a generational talent at that position with skills unlike anything he'd seen in his career. Which again raises the question why BB had Malik running on and off the field like an Olympic sprinter between each play, but that's in the past time to move on.

On the defense I really think this group has the potential to be one of our all time greats. There's a few names on there (Weaver, Goode) who I think would have to be in that conversation if they have the season I expect. There's a few more (Bynum, etc) who I could easily see being all PAC 12. Excited to see what they can do this year.

Hail2Calif said:

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"But on D itself I think its about the middle still. "

Not sure if you are saying our D will be in the middle still - as in it was "middle" last year. By most commonly used national ranking measures (Total Yards (#11), Yards Per Game (#16), Points Per Game (#24)) we were an upper tier D. Conference wise, we're pretty much #2 or #3 by almost all typical metrics.

Certainly getting to an average O will help all those D stats. So I agree with most of the posters that our final ranking will be somewhat determined by our O - but I don't think we were ever "middle" last season

To the original post - if we can get an average O performance, I think our D would pretty much rank in the top-15 in all the aforementioned categories. Not sure how much further we could go without, basically, some more of those 4 and 5 star athletes we've been trying to bring on board

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Sorry I meant the middle of our D. Not middlin performance. I think this D is definitely deserving of its objective rankings near the top. And so I was referring to Palmer and JK.

BearGreg said:

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Nationally?

History of Cal Football?

Pac-12?

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Given the history of the program stretches over 135 years, before one could rank this year's edition among all teams, they would have to conduct significant research. Heck, the Wonder years were amazing and more recently the Bear Minimum group set the standard for the modern era.

We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

ducky23 said:

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We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

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Hyperbole thine name is ducky....

71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

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Hyperbole thine name is ducky....

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What did I say that was incorrect?

Among Deng, Goode, Weaver, Bynum, Hawkins, Hicks, Davis, which one do you think won't get drafted. Heck, beyond that, beck, Rambo, banjo, Paul all have legit shots at getting drafted.

Also last year beck had the best passer rating when targeted amongst all pac 12 cornerbacks.

Again tell me where I'm wrong.

Sonny didn't care about, or recruit for, defense. Ergo, no draftees.

ducky23 said:

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71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

---

Hyperbole thine name is ducky....

---

What did I say that was incorrect?

Among Deng, Goode, Weaver, Bynum, Hawkins, Hicks, Davis, which one do you think won't get drafted. Heck, beyond that, beck, Rambo, banjo, Paul all have legit shots at getting drafted.

Also last year beck had the best passer rating when targeted amongst all pac 12 cornerbacks.

Again tell me where I'm wrong.

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First, Beck: Heck, the BI 2 deep doesn't list him as the starter. How can he be the best in the country when he isn't a starter for a mid-level P5 program? Also, even if he were among the top guys in the P12, that only puts him in the top 20 nationally. Beck is good but he isn't an All-American.

Second, 7 guys will be drafted: Bynum - yes (if he runs a strong 40 at the combine or pro day); Deng - I have no idea, he has not played a down of college football (check back after this season); Goode - hard to say, he has played very little (again, check back after this season, if he stays healthy, we will have a much better read on his pro potential); Weaver - possibly, the concern is that he may not have the necessary speed to be NFL caliber; Hawkins/Hicks/Davis - probably not, unless they demonstrate something in the upcoming season that we have not seen to this point.

71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

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Hyperbole thine name is ducky....

---

What did I say that was incorrect?

Among Deng, Goode, Weaver, Bynum, Hawkins, Hicks, Davis, which one do you think won't get drafted. Heck, beyond that, beck, Rambo, banjo, Paul all have legit shots at getting drafted.

Also last year beck had the best passer rating when targeted amongst all pac 12 cornerbacks.

Again tell me where I'm wrong.

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First, Beck: Heck, the BI 2 deep doesn't list him as the starter. How can he be the best in the country when he isn't a starter for a mid-level P5 program? Also, even if he were among the top guys in the P12, that only puts him in the top 20 nationally. Beck is good but he isn't an All-American.

Second, 7 guys will be drafted: Bynum - yes (if he runs a strong 40 at the combine or pro day); Deng - I have no idea, he has not played a down of college football (check back after this season); Goode - hard to say, he has played very little (again, check back after this season, if he stays healthy, we will have a much better read on his pro potential); Weaver - possibly, the concern is that he may not have the necessary speed to be NFL caliber; Hawkins/Hicks/Davis - probably not, unless they demonstrate something in the upcoming season that we have not seen to this point.

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Um I said beck might be the best "nickleback" in the country. I said nothing about him being the best cornerback. As I'm sure you'll agree, there's a slight distinction between the two

And I'm willing to bet you anything you want that davis (barring injury) gets drafted. How about the loser can't post on BI for six months?

As long as the players stay hungry and at least fairly healthy we should do as well as last year or possibly better. We have the talent and the coaching for that.

ducky23 said:

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71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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71Bear said:

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ducky23 said:

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We've probably had better defensive lines before (hit squad comes to mind), but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any back 7 as good as this one.

I count 7 guys in the back 7 who (barring injury) will be drafted. And an 8th guy (beck) who may be the best nickleback in the country.

---

Hyperbole thine name is ducky....

---

What did I say that was incorrect?

Among Deng, Goode, Weaver, Bynum, Hawkins, Hicks, Davis, which one do you think won't get drafted. Heck, beyond that, beck, Rambo, banjo, Paul all have legit shots at getting drafted.

Also last year beck had the best passer rating when targeted amongst all pac 12 cornerbacks.

Again tell me where I'm wrong.

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First, Beck: Heck, the BI 2 deep doesn't list him as the starter. How can he be the best in the country when he isn't a starter for a mid-level P5 program? Also, even if he were among the top guys in the P12, that only puts him in the top 20 nationally. Beck is good but he isn't an All-American.

Second, 7 guys will be drafted: Bynum - yes (if he runs a strong 40 at the combine or pro day); Deng - I have no idea, he has not played a down of college football (check back after this season); Goode - hard to say, he has played very little (again, check back after this season, if he stays healthy, we will have a much better read on his pro potential); Weaver - possibly, the concern is that he may not have the necessary speed to be NFL caliber; Hawkins/Hicks/Davis - probably not, unless they demonstrate something in the upcoming season that we have not seen to this point.

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Um I said beck might be the best "nickleback" in the country. I said nothing about him being the best cornerback. As I'm sure you'll agree, there's a slight distinction between the two

And I'm willing to bet you anything you want that davis (barring injury) gets drafted. How about the loser can't post on BI for six months?

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Best slot corner in the country - Shyheim Carter - Alabama.

Since I do not wager on anything sports-related, I must decline your betting offer. However, let's make note of your comment re: Davis and revisit this in next April.

RhetoriCal Bear said:

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As long as the players stay hungry and at least fairly healthy we should do as well as last year or possibly better. We have the talent and the coaching for that.

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This is exactly what I was going to say. I also think we have more depth and an added year of experience for a lot of guys than we had last year.

ducky23 said:

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And I'm willing to bet you anything you want that davis (barring injury) gets drafted. How about the loser can't post on BI for six months?

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Regarding Davis, I agree, and in fact I think he is the most likely to get drafted of the defensive backfield. I don't think he is the best player at his specific position (I think Bynum is), but I believe his athleticism and experience on special teams make him more versatile, thus motivating teams to draft him late.

upsetof86 said:

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I agree that our ability to manage game and tempo with running will aid D. So where is our MM this year. I have flashbacks of the dropoff in our running game in JTs time when we lost our FB.

But on D itself I think its about the middle still. Can we replace or dare I say improve our run stopping with the player losses in the middle front seven. I see we are longer and rangier at backer and deep at corner/safety. But Palmer and JK?

So yeah how do we replace what MM did for us in the running game with no MM 2.0 and no in line TE blockers?

Who replaces Palmer and JK and how do we read that? I trust JW and TD on adjustments but those types of roles and players you could argue is the essense of football itself.

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We mostly ran out of single back, spread sets the last two years. McMorris barely played, most often in goal line/short yardage situations, which is to say not very often. His few blocks on run/pass plays made the highlight reels. It kills me that people use "lack of talent" as a excuse for our offense when we don't even utilize the talent we have.

That said, I think MM would have really helped Laird, whose strength was following his blocks (if he had them). I think Dancy can be great out of a single back set.

I think we should have TEs in our base set.

Responding only about our set of defensive backs, Bynum, Hawkins, Davis, and Drayden/Hicks/Beck, I would say that it's the very best set of defensive backs we've ever had -- or at least the best since 1960 when I started going to games.

Except for Deltha and Artis Houston, I cannot think of any DBs who could replace any individuals.

And, as a group, they are better than any I can think of, even the 1991 group.

Syd Quan was a lockdown corner. He could start in this group, good as it is. They need to show another great year before we crown them best ever imo.

ddc_Cal said:

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Responding only about our set of defensive backs, Bynum, Hawkins, Davis, and Drayden/Hicks/Beck, I would say that it's the very best set of defensive backs we've ever had -- or at least the best since 1960 when I started going to games.

Except for Deltha and Artis Houston, I cannot think of any DBs who could replace any individuals.

And, as a group, they are better than any I can think of, even the 1991 group.

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Nnamdi Asomugha and Thomas DeCoud would give them a run for their money (and then some).

chazzed said:

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Baldwin's underutilzation of MM is not in the past, I'm afraid. Baldwin doesn't appear to know how to leverage his best weapons to the maximum. I'm not confident that this will change.

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I am trying to be a more positive person. Please don't nudge me back to the dark side.

ddc_Cal said:

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Responding only about our set of defensive backs, Bynum, Hawkins, Davis, and Drayden/Hicks/Beck, I would say that it's the very best set of defensive backs we've ever had -- or at least the best since 1960 when I started going to games.

Except for Deltha and Artis Houston, I cannot think of any DBs who could replace any individuals.

And, as a group, they are better than any I can think of, even the 1991 group.

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How soon we forget!

This group has a loooong way to go to match up with the 2004 group. Consider...

DeCoud
Giordano
Gutierrez
Smith
Hughes
McCleskey
Mixon

That was a unit for the ages......

I'm starting to forget who played what years. Bynum had a fine year last year. I was a bit surprised that he didn't make second-team all-conference. However, his year, IMO, only approached the best years of Squid Thompson and D. Hughes. But this year, who knows?

Asomugha didn't really blossom until the NFL, I thought.

Deleted

I think we will be as good as our DTs. Everything else looks great on paper. But if teams can run behind the guards you are toast, so we shall see. (I realize we play a 3-4 but the point still stands)

tequila4kapp said:

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I think we will be as good as our DTs. Everything else looks great on paper. But if teams can run behind the guards you are toast, so we shall see. (I realize we play a 3-4 but the point still stands)

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This is my view as well. We were not all that great against the run last season when Palmer was not in there. With Palmer in, we thrived when we could force teams to throw into the teeth of our skilled back 7 and deceptive coverages. But with Palmer gone, if teams can just grind out first downs by running it down our throat, all those opportunistic take-always could go away.

OneKeg said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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I think we will be as good as our DTs. Everything else looks great on paper. But if teams can run behind the guards you are toast, so we shall see. (I realize we play a 3-4 but the point still stands)

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This is my view as well. We were not all that great against the run last season when Palmer was not in there. With Palmer in, we thrived when we could force teams to throw into the teeth of our skilled back 7 and deceptive coverages. But with Palmer gone, if teams can just grind out first downs by running it down our throat, all those opportunistic take-always could go away.

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"What? I thought I'd never
see the day when Blueblood
would ever agree with a BI
Premium Board member.
The nerve of him to do so!"

I wholeheartedly agree with this Premium Board member's post. This, I'll have to admit, is
a rarity for me.

An excellent group to be sure.

And I had forgotten some of the excellent individual DBs who could start these days.

My intention was more to celebrate this group than to start a debate, but the comments are fun to read.


For many years, off and on, it rankled me that we would have excellent front sevens, only to have our weak link being one or more of our DBs.
Also, (and I may be wrong here) I don't remember ever seeing *all* our DBs actually looking for the ball while it is in the air, -- gratifying to see these days.

Yes, I like the skill level, attitude and cohesiveness of this group a whole lot. Go Bears!!

"For goodness sakes, look
at the Premium Board members
pile on when they get a
little attention!"