The Sports Report: Three former UCLA football players sue Jim Mora, school https://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sports-newsletter-20190530-story.html

My two cents:

1) If what is alleged is true, things like helmet to helmet drills, it is contrary to practice protocols almost ever D1 school (if not all) implemented as SOP. This should be worrisome from not only a callous attitude towards players, but also optics as UCLA touts its concussion research.

2) There also are allegations that staff mishandled concussions and other injuries, and that Mora shamed injured players into playing injured, which also runs contra to stated current practices by every D1 program. There is one really bad accusation about rushing a guy with concussion issues back into games (the guy probably would have been told not to play that season with so many concussions)

3) There is a trade-off with physical play in practice. Though some drills clearly are not done anymore, there is a need to build up some level of toughness so as one expert puts it, you don't want to take your first hit on Saturday or Sunday. By way of example: Dangerous football drills that you'd never see now https://usat.ly/2inR1sF via @usatoday. I'm not sure there is a precise formula for toughening a team up. Cal clearly had become soft under Sonny (they go physically pushed around), and that changed under Wilcox somehow. There can be slippery slope to these suits, in a contact sport. That said, I don't think that is this case here: helmet to helmet drills, as suggested by plaintiffs, in the last 10 years just isn't not consistent with good practices.

Just so people appreciate, this is the plaintiffs accusations in the story as it has been reported. No response from Mora or UCLA (UCLA won't comment).

I'm surprised by that in the three suits, plaintiffs are only asked for $15 million given the alleged conduct.

This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

TheSouseFamily said:

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This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

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Show up early to any DLS game and you'll see their linemen going one-on-one with each other, and not at half speed.

82gradDLSdad said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

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Show up early to any DLS game and you'll see their linemen going one-on-one with each other, and not at half speed.

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That isn't an Oklahoma drill. An Oklahoma drill's intention is to create a loser.

What DLS and every other team does pregame is warming up with contact. The intent is reps, not creating a loser.

I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

kad02002 said:

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I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

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Because the drill limits the players to a three yard width, helmet to helmet collisions are guaranteed on every single drill execution. Each collision results in both subconcussive and/or concussive brain neuron damage. Running the drill on a regular basis vastly increases this damage throughout the season. The drill has been replaced by with drills that teach tackling, running behind blocking, etc. without direct helmet to helmet smashing. There is no reason to increase neuron damage during practices when it can be minimized.

The DLS warmup drill has both players using the "heads-up" technique that utilizes "rugby" tackling technique to minimize direct head collissions. Thank goodness this has become the standard, accepted approach in HS, college, pro football.

You can see college & pro players still leading with their helmets since they grew up being taught with old school techniques. NFL, college & the better HS officials now flag these hits as being illegal.

LunchTime said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

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Show up early to any DLS game and you'll see their linemen going one-on-one with each other, and not at half speed.

---

That isn't an Oklahoma drill. An Oklahoma drill's intention is to create a loser.

What DLS and every other team does pregame is warming up with contact. The intent is reps, not creating a loser.

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I have not seen one DLS opponent do what DLS does. The visitors do a warm up, DLS goes full tilt and there is a winner.

Bear19 said:

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kad02002 said:

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I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

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Because the drill limits the players to a three yard width, helmet to helmet collisions are guaranteed on every single drill execution. Each collision results in both subconcussive and/or concussive brain neuron damage. Running the drill on a regular basis vastly increases this damage throughout the season. The drill has been replaced by with drills that teach tackling, running behind blocking, etc. without direct helmet to helmet smashing. There is no reason to increase neuron damage during practices when it can be minimized.

The DLS warmup drill has both players using the "heads-up" technique that utilizes "rugby" tackling technique to minimize direct head collissions. Thank goodness this has become the standard, accepted approach in HS, college, pro football.

You can see college & pro players still leading with their helmets since they grew up being taught with old school techniques. NFL, college & the better HS officials now flag these hits as being illegal.

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DLS's pre game drill has no running back or tackling. If that is part of the OK drill then DLS doesn't do the OK drill pregame. But they do go one-on-one, full speed, with two linemen. And helmets do collide albeit from a short distance.

The Oklahoma drills I'm familiar with come in 2 varieties - with and without ball carriers and tacklers. Without its OK but with its brutal. Players like the Oklahoma drill for a secondary reason - lots of waiting in line for your turn. It can decrease the # of helmet hits for lineman since they don't make contact for great lengths of time versus every play on the scrimmage. Depends on the size of the team, # of coaches to organize drills, etc. With a ball carrier its brutal on the tackler and ball carrier. Without a ball carrier its not too bad - becomes a wrestling match frequently.

82gradDLSdad said:

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DLS's pre game drill has no running back or tackling. If that is part of the OK drill then DLS doesn't do the OK drill pregame. But they do go one-on-one, full speed, with two linemen. And helmets do collide albeit from a short distance.

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Don't forget that Force = Mass x Acceleration. Acceleration = meters per second per second (m/s/s) or meters per second squared, which makes the brunt of the Force of the collision tied to how fast each player is moving. And when the two players collide, the force each player receives is the sum of the force each player is generating. That's why linebackers & defensive backs, who have time to accelerate to top speed, can inflict more damage than heavier linemen who engage each other within one or two steps.

Two players colliding in a short space from a stationary position can't accelerate to full speed, which minimizes Force & therefore possible neuron damage. Add the heads up technique, instead of spearing, and neuron damage is further minimized.

Bear19 said:

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kad02002 said:

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I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

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Because the drill limits the players to a three yard width, helmet to helmet collisions are guaranteed on every single drill execution. Each collision results in both subconcussive and/or concussive brain neuron damage. Running the drill on a regular basis vastly increases this damage throughout the season. The drill has been replaced by with drills that teach tackling, running behind blocking, etc. without direct helmet to helmet smashing. There is no reason to increase neuron damage during practices when it can be minimized.

The DLS warmup drill has both players using the "heads-up" technique that utilizes "rugby" tackling technique to minimize direct head collissions. Thank goodness this has become the standard, accepted approach in HS, college, pro football.

You can see college & pro players still leading with their helmets since they grew up being taught with old school techniques. NFL, college & the better HS officials now flag these hits as being illegal.

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It only guarantees head to head contact as much as any running play does. Proper technique still needs to be taught either way. One might argue that some "live" reps, with a smaller amount of players (easier to isolate on film) is a very valuable exercise in safety, rather than sending the guys out full speed on gameday with no live experience.

Bear19 said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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DLS's pre game drill has no running back or tackling. If that is part of the OK drill then DLS doesn't do the OK drill pregame. But they do go one-on-one, full speed, with two linemen. And helmets do collide albeit from a short distance.

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Don't forget that Force = Mass x Acceleration. Acceleration = (Speed x Speed) which makes the brunt of the Force of the collision tied to how fast each player is moving. A player who weighs 1/2 as much as another player, but is speeding 1.5 faster than the heavier player will generate much more force. And when they collide, the force each player receives is the sum of the force each player is generating. That's why linebackers & defensive backs, who have time to accelerate to top speed, can inflict much more damage than a heavier lineman.

Two players colliding in a short space from a stationary position can't accelerate to full speed, which minimizes Force & therefore possible neuron damage. Add the heads up technique, instead of spearing, and neuron damage is further minimized.

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Acceleration=d(speed)/dt not speed x speed.

Original comment amended.

Bear19 said:

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Original comment amended.

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In a collision, it is described in terms of momentum ( P=momentum=mass x velocity). In order to stop or change direction of an object with a large momentum requires a large force due to the relationship between force and momentum ( F=d(P)/dt ). Mr. Lynch was hard to bring down due to his large mass and velocity!

82gradDLSdad said:

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Bear19 said:

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kad02002 said:

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I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

---

Because the drill limits the players to a three yard width, helmet to helmet collisions are guaranteed on every single drill execution. Each collision results in both subconcussive and/or concussive brain neuron damage. Running the drill on a regular basis vastly increases this damage throughout the season. The drill has been replaced by with drills that teach tackling, running behind blocking, etc. without direct helmet to helmet smashing. There is no reason to increase neuron damage during practices when it can be minimized.

The DLS warmup drill has both players using the "heads-up" technique that utilizes "rugby" tackling technique to minimize direct head collissions. Thank goodness this has become the standard, accepted approach in HS, college, pro football.

You can see college & pro players still leading with their helmets since they grew up being taught with old school techniques. NFL, college & the better HS officials now flag these hits as being illegal.

---

DLS's pre game drill has no running back or tackling. If that is part of the OK drill then DLS doesn't do the OK drill pregame. But they do go one-on-one, full speed, with two linemen. And helmets do collide albeit from a short distance.

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Some versions are like this


Some versions are just full speed contained 1v1. But the 3 and 4 and 5 man versions are popular, it seems. EVERY version I have seen has the players (2-5) in the drill and the rest of the team watching - That is what I mean by a winner and loser.

It is distilling the game to ONLY the brain damaging part for the purpose of building an esprit de corps and drive to not be a loser; competitiveness. I dont see anything (aside from brain damage) "wrong" with it. But it doesnt seem like warm up to me, event where it started. It was a special event.

calpoly said:

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Bear19 said:

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Original comment amended.

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In a collision is described in terms of momentum ( P=momentum=mass x velocity). In order to stop or change direction of an object with a large momentum requires a large force due to the relationship between force and momentum ( F=d(P)/dt ). Mr. Lynch was hard to bring down due to his large mass and velocity!

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Chuck Muncie was similarly gifted - watching both run was a special experience.

Bear19 said:

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calpoly said:

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Bear19 said:

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Original comment amended.

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In a collision is described in terms of momentum ( P=momentum=mass x velocity). In order to stop or change direction of an object with a large momentum requires a large force due to the relationship between force and momentum ( F=d(P)/dt ). Mr. Lynch was hard to bring down due to his large mass and velocity!

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Chuck Muncie was similarly gifted - watching both run was a special experience.

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I agree. I certainly would not want to be the linebacker to try to tackle Mr. Muncie!

Good gracious = for those of us who played in the 60s and early 70s when tackling was WITH your helmet - I wonder how I made it to our 50th high school reunion last summer. To be honest, some of the "boys" from our year weren't fending so well. Sad

LunchTime said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

---

Show up early to any DLS game and you'll see their linemen going one-on-one with each other, and not at half speed.

---

That isn't an Oklahoma drill. An Oklahoma drill's intention is to create a loser.

What DLS and every other team does pregame is warming up with contact. The intent is reps, not creating a loser.

---

Right. Whenever this thing comes up, I wonder who played football, at any level, and who didn't. I played in high school. Oklahoma for us was two linemen and a running back and a linebacker. It was an absolutely brutal drill. There were cones barely wider than the linemen, and the running back had nowhere to go but directly into the linebacker, head to head. Another drill we ran was Bull in the Ring: team forms a circle. Two guys in the "ring" - one with the ball, and they go head on head from probably 10-15 yards. Brutal. I've never been to a DLS game, but I know what lineman warm ups look like, and DLSDad, I don't think it's that.



This one reminds me of ours in high school, but we didnt use the fullback or QB. To those who said "it's just like any other running play" - you're wrong. If you stepped outside the cones, you lost. It discourage trying to make tacklers miss, as running backs often do, and encourages direct hits in small spaces, which means helmet to helmet hits.

Here's another video, of UCLA under Mora, doing the drill similar to how my high school did it.



Ours was shorter and more narrow. But you can see both how brutal the hits could be and how hitting is glorified on both sides of the ball. At one point a player, explaining the drill, says, "No juking. No running around. Just mano a mano." AND THIS IS A UCLA PRODUCED VIDEO. Plaintiff's lawyers must have been excited when they saw this. It's macho bullsh-t, not a "typical running play".

Bear19 said:

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kad02002 said:

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I don't understand the problem with the Oklahoma drill. It's a running play with only a few guys on the field. Nothing more brutal than any scrimmage or 9 on 7 drill (are those next??).

---

Because the drill limits the players to a three yard width, helmet to helmet collisions are guaranteed on every single drill execution. Each collision results in both subconcussive and/or concussive brain neuron damage. Running the drill on a regular basis vastly increases this damage throughout the season. The drill has been replaced by with drills that teach tackling, running behind blocking, etc. without direct helmet to helmet smashing. There is no reason to increase neuron damage during practices when it can be minimized.

The DLS warmup drill has both players using the "heads-up" technique that utilizes "rugby" tackling technique to minimize direct head collissions. Thank goodness this has become the standard, accepted approach in HS, college, pro football.

You can see college & pro players still leading with their helmets since they grew up being taught with old school techniques. NFL, college & the better HS officials now flag these hits as being illegal.

---

Exactly.

Participated in Oklahoma drills about a million times and was a running back and linebacker so yes, I know exactly how they work. You could still make people miss or at least only take partial contact, you just have to learn to do so in tighter quarters. Which, again, is training for the real thing.

In terms of repetitive head injuries and catastrophic head/neck injuries, I think it is very dangerous to send guys out into live action on gamedays without proper training. Again, I'm not ignoring contact in Oklahoma. But this way you can actually train how to hit and tackle correctly before you get out in a game situation and lead with your head because you have no experience. And where does it end? Are half line drills outlawed? What about 9 on 7?

In pop warner our coaches would sometimes have us line up 10-15 yards apart and just run at each other to kill each other. No ball. Just kill each other. Another coach tried to "toughen up" one of my friends who was a new player by having him jog in a straight line and the hardest hitters on the team taking turns blindsiding him.

Those examples are what I would call pointless and dangerous that should be outlawed. Oklahoma, on the other hand, has legitimate teaching purposes outside of merely hitting and toughness. Outlawing Oklahoma strikes me as a move for optics with potentially dangerous consequences.

kad02002 said:

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Participated in Oklahoma drills about a million times and was a running back and linebacker so yes, I know exactly how they work. You could still make people miss or at least only take partial contact, you just have to learn to do so in tighter quarters. Which, again, is training for the real thing.

In terms of repetitive head injuries and catastrophic head/neck injuries, I think it is very dangerous to send guys out into live action on gamedays without proper training. Again, I'm not ignoring contact in Oklahoma. But this way you can actually train how to hit and tackle correctly before you get out in a game situation and lead with your head because you have no experience. And where does it end? Are half line drills outlawed? What about 9 on 7?

In pop warner our coaches would sometimes have us line up 10-15 yards apart and just run at each other to kill each other. No ball. Just kill each other. Another coach tried to "toughen up" one of my friends who was a new player by having him jog in a straight line and the hardest hitters on the team taking turns blindsiding him.

Those examples are what I would call pointless and dangerous that should be outlawed. Oklahoma, on the other hand, has legitimate teaching purposes outside of merely hitting and toughness. Outlawing Oklahoma strikes me as a move for optics with potentially dangerous consequences.

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Watch those videos. Do you see a lot of coaching on how to tackle/make a hit without using your head? I see macho b.s. with zero coaching on how to safely make a hit. The issue is not with the mechanics of the drill - it's how it's coached and the culture surrounding the drill.

GMP said:

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kad02002 said:

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Participated in Oklahoma drills about a million times and was a running back and linebacker so yes, I know exactly how they work. You could still make people miss or at least only take partial contact, you just have to learn to do so in tighter quarters. Which, again, is training for the real thing.

In terms of repetitive head injuries and catastrophic head/neck injuries, I think it is very dangerous to send guys out into live action on gamedays without proper training. Again, I'm not ignoring contact in Oklahoma. But this way you can actually train how to hit and tackle correctly before you get out in a game situation and lead with your head because you have no experience. And where does it end? Are half line drills outlawed? What about 9 on 7?

In pop warner our coaches would sometimes have us line up 10-15 yards apart and just run at each other to kill each other. No ball. Just kill each other. Another coach tried to "toughen up" one of my friends who was a new player by having him jog in a straight line and the hardest hitters on the team taking turns blindsiding him.

Those examples are what I would call pointless and dangerous that should be outlawed. Oklahoma, on the other hand, has legitimate teaching purposes outside of merely hitting and toughness. Outlawing Oklahoma strikes me as a move for optics with potentially dangerous consequences.

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Watch those videos. Do you see a lot of coaching on how to tackle/make a hit without using your head? I see macho b.s. with zero coaching on how to safely make a hit. The issue is not with the mechanics of the drill - it's how it's coached and the culture surrounding the drill.

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Yes, I mean...that's my point. I am not ignoring that the drill is about hitting. And it still should be - coached the right way. The game has changed, the Seattle "rugby tackling" video has been hugely influential in the coaching community, and coaches are very aware about head trauma now. This can be a very valuable and beneficial (for safety purposes) drill if coached the right way. If you are supposing that it will be coached the wrong way, well...in that case you are going to have problems no matter what you do. When I was coaching I ran this drill, made a point to stop the drill and teach and/or remove a player for leading with the helmet, and video taped the drill with coaching points shared to the team after practice. I have no doubt that this improved our technique and safety.

GMP said:

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LunchTime said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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This came up a few days ago as well with the NFL formally banning the "Oklahoma drill" which is the one on one OL versus DL drill that involves a lot of head contact. Most colleges and high schools also ban it. The one holdout appears to be Will Muschamp who still swears by it despite everyone else getting rid of it. (And yes, he calls it the c*ck drill)

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-football/josh-kendall-blog/article230911633.html

---

Show up early to any DLS game and you'll see their linemen going one-on-one with each other, and not at half speed.

---

That isn't an Oklahoma drill. An Oklahoma drill's intention is to create a loser.

What DLS and every other team does pregame is warming up with contact. The intent is reps, not creating a loser.

---

Right. Whenever this thing comes up, I wonder who played football, at any level, and who didn't. I played in high school. Oklahoma for us was two linemen and a running back and a linebacker. It was an absolutely brutal drill. There were cones barely wider than the linemen, and the running back had nowhere to go but directly into the linebacker, head to head. Another drill we ran was Bull in the Ring: team forms a circle. Two guys in the "ring" - one with the ball, and they go head on head from probably 10-15 yards. Brutal. I've never been to a DLS game, but I know what lineman warm ups look like, and DLSDad, I don't think it's that.



This one reminds me of ours in high school, but we didnt use the fullback or QB. To those who said "it's just like any other running play" - you're wrong. If you stepped outside the cones, you lost. It discourage trying to make tacklers miss, as running backs often do, and encourages direct hits in small spaces, which means helmet to helmet hits.

Here's another video, of UCLA under Mora, doing the drill similar to how my high school did it.



Ours was shorter and more narrow. But you can see both how brutal the hits could be and how hitting is glorified on both sides of the ball. At one point a player, explaining the drill, says, "No juking. No running around. Just mano a mano." AND THIS IS A UCLA PRODUCED VIDEO. Plaintiff's lawyers must have been excited when they saw this. It's macho bullsh-t, not a "typical running play".

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As I said earlier, if the strict definition of the OK drill is linemen and a running back and a tackle then, no, DLS does not run the OK drill during pregame. They do line up two linemen head on head and go full bore until the coach blows that whistle. Again, like I said, I have not seen one high school team warm up their linemen pre game at the intensity DLS does.