Herm Edwards fires offensive staff.

2,547 Views | 37 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by GBear4Life
MathTeacherMike
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.
ColoradoBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
He plays to win the game, obviously.
CALiforniALUM
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.


So you are saying that making a decisive move to fire your offensive staff always portends greater success? Not sure there are any facts to support your opinion. Just saying.
71Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.
Younger than UCLA?

UCLA has (including walk-ons):

63 freshmen, including redshirts
22 sophomores
19 juniors
13 seniors

ASU has (including walk-ons):

57 freshmen, including redshirts
16 sophomores
12 juniors
17 seniors

By the way, here is Cal's count, including walk-ons:

50 freshmen, including redshirts
20 sophomores
18 juniors
16 seniors
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.


Identical 7-5, 4-5 record as Cal. Finished the season beating their Rival and knocked off #6 Oregon. Earlier also beat Cal and #18 Michigan State.

ASU's offense was #59 in the country at 6.0 yards per play. Right in the middle. Average. Arizona State started a true freshman QB and was hit with injuries. Offensive staff is fired before the bowl game.

Cal's offense was #119 in the country (versus ASU's #59). Among the worst in the country and among the worst in Cal history. Worst in the PAC-12 over the last three years. Contract is up. Fans debate giving OC a new contract.
moonpod
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Likens was a hold over from Graham. I was surprised he was retained this year. he isn't one of "Herm's guys". now what surprised me is Todd Orlando got canned and I think he was a Herm Hire
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
moonpod said:

Likens was a hold over from Graham. I was surprised he was retained this year. he isn't one of "Herm's guys". now what surprised me is Todd Orlando got canned and I think he was a Herm Hire


ASU had the #55 offense in yards per play in 2017 (when Likens was PGC), the #48 offense last year as OC and that dropped to #59 this year. So that is pretty consistently average. Herm wants better.

Cal's offense has been: #101 in 2017, #120 in 2018 and #119 in 2019.
Nasal Mucus Goldenbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
At ourlads.com's 2-deep Offensive Depth Charts (updated 11/26 or 11/27):

*ASU has 9 fr./rs.fr.
*UCLA has 7.
*CAL has 5.

Each of these offenses has one freshman listed twice in the 2-deep, either a starter who is listed as backup in another position, or a backup who backs up 2 positions.
71Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
moonpod said:

Likens was a hold over from Graham. I was surprised he was retained this year. he isn't one of "Herm's guys". now what surprised me is Todd Orlando got canned and I think he was a Herm Hire
Orlando was fired by Tom Herman at Texas. He did not work for Edwards....
moonpod
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lol wrong herm. Hahaha
joe amos yaks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
moonpod said:

Lol wrong herm. Hahaha

They'll fire him anyway just to be sure Coach Herm got the right guy.
hanky1
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Herm is awesome. He plays to win the game.

Letting poor performers go is the most difficult thing to do as a supervisor. But it's what separates the good ones from the average ones. Wilcox has not yet demonstrated this ability.
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.
MathTeacherMike
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MathTeacherMike said:

GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
Herm didn't own his mistake. That's what's chicken sh*t. If Likens wasn't doing things that in Herm's eyes were the culprit of not maximizing the unit's potential, you communicate that, manage, guide, and if behavior doesn't change or doesn't change sufficiently then you part ways.

Jesus christ you're the HC/CEO, you picked the guy. The coordinators job isn't to have the best offense in the conference, it's to maximize the potential of the unit's personnel. Period. I think Wilcox is very in-tune with what that reality is for his Bears, and isn't going to knee jerk can BB when Wilcox knows A) BB is doing a good job (in his mind) B) the personnel challenges are real and near bottom of conference. You disagree with this, but I presume Wilcox is in a better position than you to make that informed decision.

Herm is off in never never land. He probably isn't dumb enough not to understand that it's irrational to draw a straight line from coach to end on-field result (he's dumb, but not that dumb). But he knows the offense should get better. Does he have a tangible plan how to do that? Probably not. So what can you do? Fire the coordinator. It looks good.
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
And why is the HC given a pass for making what is clearly (to YOU) an incompetent mistake hiring an incompetent OC, and why would you trust him to make the right one to fix it? If you were the AD managing JW and applied your same logic, wouldn't your course of duty to can Wilcox?
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
hanky1 said:

Herm is awesome. He plays to win the game.

Letting poor performers go is the most difficult thing to do as a supervisor. But it's what separates the good ones from the average ones. Wilcox has not yet demonstrated this ability.
The dilemma here is in what constitutes a poor performer. If it's end result that's fine but we should at least be honest that it's irrational but it's the nature of the business because it is logically more common than not for a coach to do a GREAT job and get "poor" end-results (relative to peers). Saban takes Cal job and Cal goes 7-5, is Saban trash? Of course not. But we don't follow this simple logical reality when we're unhappy (or happy) with end-results.

If Herm can articulate how ASU's offense was underachieving given the personnel, and communicated this to Likens, gave him opportunity to take your guidance and feedback to make those articulated changes, then fine.

How much you wanna bet that's NOT the case with Big Herm? Herm can't articulate a highlight reel let alone breakdown what/why/how the offense is working and maximizing its talents, and how to tangibly improve on that. So covering how own arse and possibly his misguided expectations of the end result given the personnel, is chicken sh*t.
UrsineMaximus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
welp, some CEO's and managers see the bigger picture and move FORWARD prior to the abyss. Good for him to see it.
hanky1
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Omg please make this happen. LOL

BerlinerBaer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
moonpod said:

Likens was a hold over from Graham. I was surprised he was retained this year. he isn't one of "Herm's guys". now what surprised me is Todd Orlando got canned and I think he was a Herm Hire
My take is that Herm wants to change offensive philosophy, maybe move from a spread to more RPO or even a pro-style. In that case, and based on Likens being a Graham guy, it makes sense to let him go even if he isn't under-performing by most metrics. I recall Likens was an assistant HC at Cal, so Herm may have valued his leadership during the early period of his tenure at ASU.
59bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:

hanky1 said:

Herm is awesome. He plays to win the game.

Letting poor performers go is the most difficult thing to do as a supervisor. But it's what separates the good ones from the average ones. Wilcox has not yet demonstrated this ability.
The dilemma here is in what constitutes a poor performer. If it's end result that's fine but we should at least be honest that it's irrational but it's the nature of the business because it is logically more common than not for a coach to do a GREAT job and get "poor" end-results (relative to peers). Saban takes Cal job and Cal goes 7-5, is Saban trash? Of course not. But we don't follow this simple logical reality when we're unhappy (or happy) with end-results.

If Herm can articulate how ASU's offense was underachieving given the personnel, and communicated this to Likens, gave him opportunity to take your guidance and feedback to make those articulated changes, then fine.

How much you wanna bet that's NOT the case with Big Herm? Herm can't articulate a highlight reel let alone breakdown what/why/how the offense is working and maximizing its talents, and how to tangibly improve on that. So covering how own arse and possibly his misguided expectations of the end result given the personnel, is chicken sh*t.
How do you know that Herm didn't have the come to Jesus intervention you call for in the next to last paragraph? Maybe there has been ongoing activity or maybe there were other issues (job hunting on the side by the firees).
Coaching staffs turn over regularly for a variety of reasons and I don't buy that butt covering is the most logical basis for this change. Is there any evidence that Herm is feeling heat? From where I sit, he's done a hell of a job.
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
59bear said:

GBear4Life said:

hanky1 said:

Herm is awesome. He plays to win the game.

Letting poor performers go is the most difficult thing to do as a supervisor. But it's what separates the good ones from the average ones. Wilcox has not yet demonstrated this ability.
The dilemma here is in what constitutes a poor performer. If it's end result that's fine but we should at least be honest that it's irrational but it's the nature of the business because it is logically more common than not for a coach to do a GREAT job and get "poor" end-results (relative to peers). Saban takes Cal job and Cal goes 7-5, is Saban trash? Of course not. But we don't follow this simple logical reality when we're unhappy (or happy) with end-results.

If Herm can articulate how ASU's offense was underachieving given the personnel, and communicated this to Likens, gave him opportunity to take your guidance and feedback to make those articulated changes, then fine.

How much you wanna bet that's NOT the case with Big Herm? Herm can't articulate a highlight reel let alone breakdown what/why/how the offense is working and maximizing its talents, and how to tangibly improve on that. So covering how own arse and possibly his misguided expectations of the end result given the personnel, is chicken sh*t.
How do you know that Herm didn't have the come to Jesus intervention you call for in the next to last paragraph? Maybe there has been ongoing activity or maybe there were other issues (job hunting on the side by the firees).
Coaching staffs turn over regularly for a variety of reasons and I don't buy that butt covering is the most logical basis for this change. Is there any evidence that Herm is feeling heat? From where I sit, he's done a hell of a job.


Likens was a first time OC, promoted from WR/PGC. Edwards gave the guy a chance. He produced mediocre/average results two years in a row and Edwards wants to compete for championships so he is making a change.
going4roses
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yes at pro style
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:

MathTeacherMike said:

GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
Herm didn't own his mistake. That's what's chicken sh*t. If Likens wasn't doing things that in Herm's eyes were the culprit of not maximizing the unit's potential, you communicate that, manage, guide, and if behavior doesn't change or doesn't change sufficiently then you part ways.

Jesus christ you're the HC/CEO, you picked the guy. The coordinators job isn't to have the best offense in the conference, it's to maximize the potential of the unit's personnel. Period. I think Wilcox is very in-tune with what that reality is for his Bears, and isn't going to knee jerk can BB when Wilcox knows A) BB is doing a good job (in his mind) B) the personnel challenges are real and near bottom of conference. You disagree with this, but I presume Wilcox is in a better position than you to make that informed decision.

Herm is off in never never land. He probably isn't dumb enough not to understand that it's irrational to draw a straight line from coach to end on-field result (he's dumb, but not that dumb). But he knows the offense should get better. Does he have a tangible plan how to do that? Probably not. So what can you do? Fire the coordinator. It looks good.
The bolded statement above shows how uninformed you are. To fire a coach, Herm has to go to his AD, explain what he wants to do, get approval/funds, and then do it. You don't think he has a plan in that scenario? You don't think he's maybe asked around and perhaps identified a few candidates (cough, Hue Jackson)? If nothing else, Herm has contacts. And his AD doesn't authorize firing a coach making big bucks unless Herm has a plan.

And for the record, it is not clear Likens is "Herm's mistake." To some extent, Herm was forced to keep Likens and the other two coaches when he took over. Likens had 2 years - that is more than fair. It really just seems like a case of Herm wanting to run a different system designed around Daniels. Kudos to Herm - he's not messing around and making tough decisions. No doubt he brings that from the NFL the ultimate results oriented business - winners don't accept mediocrity and make excuses.

If you have access, you can read more about the background here. Bottom line is Herm is playing to win and I admire that. Cal could learn a thing or two.

https://theathletic.com/1423731/2019/12/01/what-the-firing-of-rob-likens-and-others-says-about-herm-edwards-and-the-programs-direction/





okaydo
How long do you want to ignore this user?

Uthaithani
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Man, the arguments some people make for keeping mediocre/ bad coaches is astounding.

College football is not meant to be stable employment for the mediocre. It's produce or you're out. If you're mediocre and need to support your family, there are plenty of other career paths. It's not the job of fans and alumni to prop people up or retain because people feel sorry for them or other similar lame, sorry excuses.

It's a cutthroat industry. Produce, or be fired. Don't waste time feeling sorry for people who chose this line of work. They'll be fine, more than fine.

The worst OC in the nation is making a whole lot more than the huge majority of Cal fans. And it's coming from our ticket purchases and revenue that could be going to a much better coach - which would pay off better for the stakeholders in terms of revenue and quality of game experience. He has more than enough money to pay his bills and land softly at some other nice job that pays well above his value, that shouldn't be our consideration. He'll be fine. Stop feeling sorry for him and making lame sentimental excuses for retaining a poor performer. It's better for everyone to let the deadwood go - quickly and decisively. That's what GOOD managers do. Bad ones keep the deadwood because they feel pity or some BS about "loyalty," which is nonsense.

The fact that some schools retain bad coaches for too long doesn't mean firing a bad coach is wrong. It's certainly not chickens**t .
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
hanky1 said:

Omg please make this happen. LOL


I thought Hue was really respected as a coordinator?
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Uthaithani said:

Man, the arguments some people make for keeping mediocre/ bad coaches is astounding.

College football is not meant to be stable employment for the mediocre. It's produce or you're out. If you're mediocre and need to support your family, there are plenty of other career paths. It's not the job of fans and alumni to prop people up or retain because people feel sorry for them or other similar lame, sorry excuses.

It's a cutthroat industry. Produce, or be fired. Don't waste time feeling sorry for people who chose this line of work. They'll be fine, more than fine.

The worst OC in the nation is making a whole lot more than the huge majority of Cal fans. And it's coming from our ticket purchases and revenue that could be going to a much better coach - which would pay off better for the stakeholders in terms of revenue and quality of game experience. He has more than enough money to pay his bills and land softly at some other nice job that pays well above his value, that shouldn't be our consideration. He'll be fine. Stop feeling sorry for him and making lame sentimental excuses for retaining a poor performer. It's better for everyone to let the deadwood go - quickly and decisively. That's what GOOD managers do. Bad ones keep the deadwood because they feel pity or some BS about "loyalty," which is nonsense.

The fact that some schools retain bad coaches for too long doesn't mean firing a bad coach is wrong. It's certainly not chickens**t .
What a sh*t load of strawmen to prop up an insane and hyperbolic assertion - "the worst OC in the nation" lmao

Who the hell is denying CFB is cutthroat or not stable

What's amazing is the arguments made to obfuscate a HCs ability to acquire talented personnel by scapegoating the coordinator
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles said:

GBear4Life said:

MathTeacherMike said:

GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
Herm didn't own his mistake. That's what's chicken sh*t. If Likens wasn't doing things that in Herm's eyes were the culprit of not maximizing the unit's potential, you communicate that, manage, guide, and if behavior doesn't change or doesn't change sufficiently then you part ways.

Jesus christ you're the HC/CEO, you picked the guy. The coordinators job isn't to have the best offense in the conference, it's to maximize the potential of the unit's personnel. Period. I think Wilcox is very in-tune with what that reality is for his Bears, and isn't going to knee jerk can BB when Wilcox knows A) BB is doing a good job (in his mind) B) the personnel challenges are real and near bottom of conference. You disagree with this, but I presume Wilcox is in a better position than you to make that informed decision.

Herm is off in never never land. He probably isn't dumb enough not to understand that it's irrational to draw a straight line from coach to end on-field result (he's dumb, but not that dumb). But he knows the offense should get better. Does he have a tangible plan how to do that? Probably not. So what can you do? Fire the coordinator. It looks good.
The bolded statement above shows how uninformed you are. To fire a coach, Herm has to go to his AD, explain what he wants to do, get approval/funds, and then do it. You don't think he has a plan in that scenario? You don't think he's maybe asked around and perhaps identified a few candidates (cough, Hue Jackson)? If nothing else, Herm has contacts. And his AD doesn't authorize firing a coach making big bucks unless Herm has a plan.

And for the record, it is not clear Likens is "Herm's mistake." To some extent, Herm was forced to keep Likens and the other two coaches when he took over. Likens had 2 years - that is more than fair. It really just seems like a case of Herm wanting to run a different system designed around Daniels. Kudos to Herm - he's not messing around and making tough decisions. No doubt he brings that from the NFL the ultimate results oriented business - winners don't accept mediocrity and make excuses.

If you have access, you can read more about the background here. Bottom line is Herm is playing to win and I admire that. Cal could learn a thing or two.

https://theathletic.com/1423731/2019/12/01/what-the-firing-of-rob-likens-and-others-says-about-herm-edwards-and-the-programs-direction/

Big Herm went to AD and said "we need to score more points. Hand over funds, please."
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:

BearGoggles said:

GBear4Life said:

MathTeacherMike said:

GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
Herm didn't own his mistake. That's what's chicken sh*t. If Likens wasn't doing things that in Herm's eyes were the culprit of not maximizing the unit's potential, you communicate that, manage, guide, and if behavior doesn't change or doesn't change sufficiently then you part ways.

Jesus christ you're the HC/CEO, you picked the guy. The coordinators job isn't to have the best offense in the conference, it's to maximize the potential of the unit's personnel. Period. I think Wilcox is very in-tune with what that reality is for his Bears, and isn't going to knee jerk can BB when Wilcox knows A) BB is doing a good job (in his mind) B) the personnel challenges are real and near bottom of conference. You disagree with this, but I presume Wilcox is in a better position than you to make that informed decision.

Herm is off in never never land. He probably isn't dumb enough not to understand that it's irrational to draw a straight line from coach to end on-field result (he's dumb, but not that dumb). But he knows the offense should get better. Does he have a tangible plan how to do that? Probably not. So what can you do? Fire the coordinator. It looks good.
The bolded statement above shows how uninformed you are. To fire a coach, Herm has to go to his AD, explain what he wants to do, get approval/funds, and then do it. You don't think he has a plan in that scenario? You don't think he's maybe asked around and perhaps identified a few candidates (cough, Hue Jackson)? If nothing else, Herm has contacts. And his AD doesn't authorize firing a coach making big bucks unless Herm has a plan.

And for the record, it is not clear Likens is "Herm's mistake." To some extent, Herm was forced to keep Likens and the other two coaches when he took over. Likens had 2 years - that is more than fair. It really just seems like a case of Herm wanting to run a different system designed around Daniels. Kudos to Herm - he's not messing around and making tough decisions. No doubt he brings that from the NFL the ultimate results oriented business - winners don't accept mediocrity and make excuses.

If you have access, you can read more about the background here. Bottom line is Herm is playing to win and I admire that. Cal could learn a thing or two.

https://theathletic.com/1423731/2019/12/01/what-the-firing-of-rob-likens-and-others-says-about-herm-edwards-and-the-programs-direction/

Big Herm went to AD and said "we need to score more points. Hand over funds, please."
Man do you argue in bad faith which only highlights the absurdity of the positions you take. Perhaps Herm said more to his AD than what he said publicly? Maybe Herm's public statement was the full elucidation of his plan? Perhaps he decided not to disclose the details of his plan because he's in the process of implementing it and doing so might be problematic (e.g., if he's talking to coaches with jobs elsewhere). Herm's public comments are in line with what 99.99% of head coaches or ADs would say in that situation, yet you somehow find that as evidence that he lacks a plan.

It is amazing how you're willing to assume the absolute worst (and impugn) Herm - all without any evidence - while at the same time defending (and making excuses for) an OC who has objectively (and with lots of evidence) produced some of the worst offenses in the NCAA over a 3 year period.

Also, you keep saying that the OC (Baldwin) is being scapegoated by the head coach (Wilcox). Exactly what are you expecting Wilcox to do to "take responsibility"? In your view, should Wilcox resign? Because short of that absurdity, Wilcox's only recourse is to let Baldwin go. Baldwin's contract is up - Cal and Wilcox owe him nothing. Making a change "obfuscates" nothing - talk about strawman arguments.



GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles said:

GBear4Life said:

BearGoggles said:

GBear4Life said:

MathTeacherMike said:

GBear4Life said:

Wilcox has a lot of respect form his peers for NOT doing the bucking of accountability that is par for the course for HCs when things don't go well for them: fire the coordinator.

Herm was the one who kept Likens. Presumably Herm asked Likens what his philosophy was and made sure it aligned with his own vision for the program. Herm gets results less than desirable and draws a straight line to relieving coordinator is chicken sh*t. At least be a man and OWN that decision as YOUR failure as a HC.


Let me get this straight - Herm keeps Likens because he thinks he'll do a good job - Likens doesn't meet those expectations - Herm fires him - Herm is chicken***t? If Herm didn't like the results, what would you propose he do? Suck it up and give him another year or two? I already know how that plays out so I respect Herm Edwards for taking action.

I don't know how letting go of his staff will work out, but trying to get his team to compete at its potential is his job, so making the changes he deems will accomplish that mission is taking responsibility. Letting go of a coach that he hired because he was underperforming is OWNING his mistake.

I would respect Wilcox a whole lot more if he Would OWN his mistake; keeping BB for one year too many.
Herm didn't own his mistake. That's what's chicken sh*t. If Likens wasn't doing things that in Herm's eyes were the culprit of not maximizing the unit's potential, you communicate that, manage, guide, and if behavior doesn't change or doesn't change sufficiently then you part ways.

Jesus christ you're the HC/CEO, you picked the guy. The coordinators job isn't to have the best offense in the conference, it's to maximize the potential of the unit's personnel. Period. I think Wilcox is very in-tune with what that reality is for his Bears, and isn't going to knee jerk can BB when Wilcox knows A) BB is doing a good job (in his mind) B) the personnel challenges are real and near bottom of conference. You disagree with this, but I presume Wilcox is in a better position than you to make that informed decision.

Herm is off in never never land. He probably isn't dumb enough not to understand that it's irrational to draw a straight line from coach to end on-field result (he's dumb, but not that dumb). But he knows the offense should get better. Does he have a tangible plan how to do that? Probably not. So what can you do? Fire the coordinator. It looks good.
The bolded statement above shows how uninformed you are. To fire a coach, Herm has to go to his AD, explain what he wants to do, get approval/funds, and then do it. You don't think he has a plan in that scenario? You don't think he's maybe asked around and perhaps identified a few candidates (cough, Hue Jackson)? If nothing else, Herm has contacts. And his AD doesn't authorize firing a coach making big bucks unless Herm has a plan.

And for the record, it is not clear Likens is "Herm's mistake." To some extent, Herm was forced to keep Likens and the other two coaches when he took over. Likens had 2 years - that is more than fair. It really just seems like a case of Herm wanting to run a different system designed around Daniels. Kudos to Herm - he's not messing around and making tough decisions. No doubt he brings that from the NFL the ultimate results oriented business - winners don't accept mediocrity and make excuses.

If you have access, you can read more about the background here. Bottom line is Herm is playing to win and I admire that. Cal could learn a thing or two.

https://theathletic.com/1423731/2019/12/01/what-the-firing-of-rob-likens-and-others-says-about-herm-edwards-and-the-programs-direction/

Big Herm went to AD and said "we need to score more points. Hand over funds, please."
Man do you argue in bad faith which only highlights the absurdity of the positions you take. Perhaps Herm said more to his AD than what he said publicly? Maybe Herm's public statement was the full elucidation of his plan? Perhaps he decided not to disclose the details of his plan because he's in the process of implementing it and doing so might be problematic (e.g., if he's talking to coaches with jobs elsewhere). Herm's public comments are in line with what 99.99% of head coaches or ADs would say in that situation, yet you somehow find that as evidence that he lacks a plan.

It is amazing how you're willing to assume the absolute worst (and impugn) Herm - all without any evidence - while at the same time defending (and making excuses for) an OC who has objectively (and with lots of evidence) produced some of the worst offenses in the NCAA over a 3 year period.

Also, you keep saying that the OC (Baldwin) is being scapegoated by the head coach (Wilcox). Exactly what are you expecting Wilcox to do to "take responsibility"? In your view, should Wilcox resign? Because short of that absurdity, Wilcox's only recourse is to let Baldwin go. Baldwin's contract is up - Cal and Wilcox owe him nothing. Making a change "obfuscates" nothing - talk about strawman arguments.

I'm obviously being tongue-and-cheek about Herm's coaching intelligence. I don't think very highly of it, but nonetheless.

I'm casting doubt on the level of certainty that doesn't scale with the evidence (because of a lack of relevant information). I'm open minded about Big Herm actually making the right call (how do I know?) and Cal moving on from BB being the right call especially since his contract is up (again, how would I know?). I also acknowledge that a unit's performance doesn't always reflect the quality of the coach (anybody with sense or athletic experience knows this) while also acknowledging this is a results business and sometimes moving on from a good coach who isn't getting the results is prudent. I think the certainty doesn't scale with the evidence and is disingenuous and self-affirming.

I've also litigated the hypocrisy of the competing (and conflicting) narratives on HC JW, DC TDR and OC BB many times in previous threads.
Pigskin Pete
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:


I'm obviously being tongue-and-cheek about Herm's coaching intelligence.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tongue-in-cheek

CalBarn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
calumnus said:

MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.


Identical 7-5, 4-5 record as Cal. Finished the season beating their Rival and knocked off #6 Oregon. Earlier also beat Cal and #18 Michigan State.

ASU's offense was #59 in the country at 6.0 yards per play. Right in the middle. Average. Arizona State started a true freshman QB and was hit with injuries. Offensive staff is fired before the bowl game.

Cal's offense was #119 in the country (versus ASU's #59). Among the worst in the country and among the worst in Cal history. Worst in the PAC-12 over the last three years. Contract is up. Fans debate giving OC a new contract.
It should be obvious to anyone who has watched any games the last three years--
there should be no debate.
GBear4Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
CalBarn said:

calumnus said:

MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.


Identical 7-5, 4-5 record as Cal. Finished the season beating their Rival and knocked off #6 Oregon. Earlier also beat Cal and #18 Michigan State.

ASU's offense was #59 in the country at 6.0 yards per play. Right in the middle. Average. Arizona State started a true freshman QB and was hit with injuries. Offensive staff is fired before the bowl game.

Cal's offense was #119 in the country (versus ASU's #59). Among the worst in the country and among the worst in Cal history. Worst in the PAC-12 over the last three years. Contract is up. Fans debate giving OC a new contract.
It should be obvious to anyone who has watched any games the last three years--
there should be no debate.
I agree. It's obvious to any non partisan that Cal doesn't have good players on offense.
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GBear4Life said:

CalBarn said:

calumnus said:

MathTeacherMike said:

Even though ASU beat their rival yesterday, and is headed to a bowl game with the youngest team in the P12 - Herm decided to let three of his offensive coaches go - including the O.C. - effective immediately.

It is a decisive move that was not influenced by recency bias, or the illusion of success that a lower-tier bowl projects to fans that settle for mediocrity.

Just sayin.


Identical 7-5, 4-5 record as Cal. Finished the season beating their Rival and knocked off #6 Oregon. Earlier also beat Cal and #18 Michigan State.

ASU's offense was #59 in the country at 6.0 yards per play. Right in the middle. Average. Arizona State started a true freshman QB and was hit with injuries. Offensive staff is fired before the bowl game.

Cal's offense was #119 in the country (versus ASU's #59). Among the worst in the country and among the worst in Cal history. Worst in the PAC-12 over the last three years. Contract is up. Fans debate giving OC a new contract.
It should be obvious to anyone who has watched any games the last three years--
there should be no debate.
I agree. It's obvious to any non partisan that Cal doesn't have good players on offense.


By the same token, neither does Oregon State or even WSU, right? Just like it was "obvious" Cal didn't have any good defensive players in 2016.

Even if it is true (it is not) in year 3 you are responsible for the talent level. Recruiting and retention are two of a college coach's most important job responsibilities.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.