Coleman

7,280 Views | 43 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by ddc_Cal
Yogi58
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roqmoq said:

Is DC the type of player who is necessary for the team to win, but will also be partially responsible for some losses? In other words, "can't win without him and can lose because of him".
I'll buy that.
SmellinRoses
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I don't even have to look to assume Coleman has the lowest season FG% of the starters against St. Mary's. He's a volume shooter yes but not a good shooter - and this is a guy who is mostly shooting layups. Didn't say he never passes, said he was a ball hog. If you're controlling the ball most of the time - you're going to get assists here and there.
MSaviolives
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SFCityBear said:

SmellinRoses said:

Coleman is a ball hog period - and he's not a good shooter. He isn't even remotely looking to pass to any open man his wild driving creates.

Was good to see Lee play well.
Just my opinion, but I don't think Coleman is a ball hog. He has an uncanny ability to finish at the rim, but that depends first of all on him generating great speed. He is also a pretty good passer who sometimes creates baskets with assists. I think he has a one-track mind, in that when he gets the ball, he quickly makes a decision to pass or shoot, and 80-90% of the time, he decides to drive and shoot or to shoot a perimeter shot. When he decides to pass, it will usually be an assist. The problem is that once he decides, his mind locks in on that plan, and he is almost unable to change his mind on the fly. If he decides to drive, he immediately begins to accelerate tremendously, and he can not stop until he puts up a shot. He can not even slow down and veer off to the side and bring the ball back out, or pass it back out.

The best guards, when they drive, are able to think on the fly as the play develops. Jason Kidd could do all of that, often changing his mind at the last second, on what he would do, shoot, pass, or dribble away from the defenders and restart the offense. A player like Justin Cobbs or Ty Wallace were good guards, but not great, and could change their minds during a drive, but usually made their decision to shoot or pass much earlier in the drive than Kidd would do, and they more often chose to take the shot. Kidd's last second decisions were usually to not take the shot if it was not a good look, and make the pass. If neither option was good, he would not give up the ball like Coleman does, but he would make another decision to back off an restart the offense in hopes of getting a better shot for himself or a teammate. While speed is Coleman's great asset, it is also his problem, because once he gets up to speed, he is going so fast, he no longer can change his mind not to take the shot, if it is a bad look, or if a teammate is more wide open. Kidd, Cobbs, and Wallace all played slower (by different degrees) than Coleman on the drive.





I think you nailed it. Once he decides to go to the hoop, he is going so fast (which is his talent and allows him to get to the rim) that he simply can't change his mind and go for the assist or back off to restart.
SmellinRoses
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SFCityBear said:

SmellinRoses said:

Coleman is a ball hog period - and he's not a good shooter. He isn't even remotely looking to pass to any open man his wild driving creates.

Was good to see Lee play well.
Just my opinion, but I don't think Coleman is a ball hog. He has an uncanny ability to finish at the rim, but that depends first of all on him generating great speed. He is also a pretty good passer who sometimes creates baskets with assists. I think he has a one-track mind, in that when he gets the ball, he quickly makes a decision to pass or shoot, and 80-90% of the time, he decides to drive and shoot or to shoot a perimeter shot. When he decides to pass, it will usually be an assist. The problem is that once he decides, his mind locks in on that plan, and he is almost unable to change his mind on the fly. If he decides to drive, he immediately begins to accelerate tremendously, and he can not stop until he puts up a shot. He can not even slow down and veer off to the side and bring the ball back out, or pass it back out.

The best guards, when they drive, are able to think on the fly as the play develops. Jason Kidd could do all of that, often changing his mind at the last second, on what he would do, shoot, pass, or dribble away from the defenders and restart the offense. A player like Justin Cobbs or Ty Wallace were good guards, but not great, and could change their minds during a drive, but usually made their decision to shoot or pass much earlier in the drive than Kidd would do, and they more often chose to take the shot. Kidd's last second decisions were usually to not take the shot if it was not a good look, and make the pass. If neither option was good, he would not give up the ball like Coleman does, but he would make another decision to back off an restart the offense in hopes of getting a better shot for himself or a teammate. While speed is Coleman's great asset, it is also his problem, because once he gets up to speed, he is going so fast, he no longer can change his mind not to take the shot, if it is a bad look, or if a teammate is more wide open. Kidd, Cobbs, and Wallace all played slower (by different degrees) than Coleman on the drive.


I agree with almost all of this - we just have a different definition of ball hog, the "one-track mind" making him one imo. But will disagree with "uncanny ability." There are many who could go full speed to the basket throwing up a wild, off-balance low shot - just assume they are coached to not do so.


flounder
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coleman reminds me of a far less talented monta ellis
roqmoq
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MSaviolives said:

SFCityBear said:

SmellinRoses said:

Coleman is a ball hog period - and he's not a good shooter. He isn't even remotely looking to pass to any open man his wild driving creates.

Was good to see Lee play well.
Just my opinion, but I don't think Coleman is a ball hog. He has an uncanny ability to finish at the rim, but that depends first of all on him generating great speed. He is also a pretty good passer who sometimes creates baskets with assists. I think he has a one-track mind, in that when he gets the ball, he quickly makes a decision to pass or shoot, and 80-90% of the time, he decides to drive and shoot or to shoot a perimeter shot. When he decides to pass, it will usually be an assist. The problem is that once he decides, his mind locks in on that plan, and he is almost unable to change his mind on the fly. If he decides to drive, he immediately begins to accelerate tremendously, and he can not stop until he puts up a shot. He can not even slow down and veer off to the side and bring the ball back out, or pass it back out.

The best guards, when they drive, are able to think on the fly as the play develops. Jason Kidd could do all of that, often changing his mind at the last second, on what he would do, shoot, pass, or dribble away from the defenders and restart the offense. A player like Justin Cobbs or Ty Wallace were good guards, but not great, and could change their minds during a drive, but usually made their decision to shoot or pass much earlier in the drive than Kidd would do, and they more often chose to take the shot. Kidd's last second decisions were usually to not take the shot if it was not a good look, and make the pass. If neither option was good, he would not give up the ball like Coleman does, but he would make another decision to back off an restart the offense in hopes of getting a better shot for himself or a teammate. While speed is Coleman's great asset, it is also his problem, because once he gets up to speed, he is going so fast, he no longer can change his mind not to take the shot, if it is a bad look, or if a teammate is more wide open. Kidd, Cobbs, and Wallace all played slower (by different degrees) than Coleman on the drive.





I think you nailed it. Once he decides to go to the hoop, he is going so fast (which is his talent and allows him to get to the rim) that he simply can't change his mind and go for the assist or back off to restart.
Maybe slow down just a bit and develop a pull-up shot or floater? I believe that would help his game.
SFCityBear
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SmellinRoses said:

I don't even have to look to assume Coleman has the lowest season FG% of the starters against St. Mary's. He's a volume shooter yes but not a good shooter - and this is a guy who is mostly shooting layups. Didn't say he never passes, said he was a ball hog. If you're controlling the ball most of the time - you're going to get assists here and there.
I understand what you are saying. Coleman is a talented scorer, but he does make a lot of questionable decisions on the floor. I would disagree with the idea that Coleman is controlling the ball most of the time. To understand what Coleman is doing and why he is doing it, we need only to listen to Wyking Jones words before the season began, which were that Coleman was going to be this team's scorer, this team's "go-to" guy. In Cuonzo Martin's offense, everyone (well most everyone) was coached to take the ball strong to the rim, or shoot the three. And when Coleman got the chance to play for Cuonzo, he did the same thing. But he had to share scoring duties with Mullins, Bird, Moore, Singer, Rabb, etc. Coleman had only a couple of games when he scored well, but I think his inconsistency was due to the fact that other players had to have the ball a lot. This season, he is the #1 option for the Cal offense. I believe Coleman has been told to score a lot, or at least he has been given the green light. My definition of a ball hog has always been whether you hog the ball when a coach is preaching team offense.

In that light, I don't think Coleman is controlling the ball most of the time. The player who is assigned that job is McNeill, the point guard. He is the one bringing the ball up the floor most of the time, and he is the one deciding what plays, if any, are run. He is the one making the first pass to start a play, much of the time.he is the one doing the most dribbling. Coleman is very good at moving without the ball and getting open. and
I would guess that his teammates have been told to locate him, and get him the ball if he is open. The other thing Coleman does is get his hands on loose balls, and turn those into shot attempts for him. I could be wrong, but the only time I see him controlling the ball is when he makes up his mind to go for a basket or an assist.

Another thing is many teams have players who are reluctant to shoot. On this team, Okoroh, Anticevich, Mcullogh, Winston, and maybe others are reluctant to shoot. Another reason perhaps why Jones designated Coleman as the team's go-to guy, and for everyone else to get him the ball. He is very aggressive.

I am really concerned about this kind of play. Coleman is very talented, and he risks injury every time he gets up in the air. Not only would this kill any chance of team success this season, but he could suffer a serious injury that might affect his future life. I used to have the same concern about Ty Wallace, because he would get up in the air on a drive, out of control, and hit the floor afterwards. However, Wallace had this unique ability to land on the floor softly, usually hitting it at an angle and sliding horizontally to slow his momentum. and he did not get hurt until the very end of his career. Watching Wallace fall was so graceful, it was like watching ballet without the music. Coleman, on the other hand, when he on a drive, usually collides point-blank with the floor. It is a crash, often knocking him woozy or winded, and sometime he needs help to get up. If he continues to olay this way, I can only hope he will make it through the season.
SFCityBear
UrsaMajor
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SFCityBear said:

SmellinRoses said:

I don't even have to look to assume Coleman has the lowest season FG% of the starters against St. Mary's. He's a volume shooter yes but not a good shooter - and this is a guy who is mostly shooting layups. Didn't say he never passes, said he was a ball hog. If you're controlling the ball most of the time - you're going to get assists here and there.
I understand what you are saying. Coleman is a talented scorer, but he does make a lot of questionable decisions on the floor. I would disagree with the idea that Coleman is controlling the ball most of the time. To understand what Coleman is doing and why he is doing it, we need only to listen to Wyking Jones words before the season began, which were that Coleman was going to be this team's scorer, this team's "go-to" guy. In Cuonzo Martin's offense, everyone (well most everyone) was coached to take the ball strong to the rim, or shoot the three. And when Coleman got the chance to play for Cuonzo, he did the same thing. But he had to share scoring duties with Mullins, Bird, Moore, Singer, Rabb, etc. Coleman had only a couple of games when he scored well, but I think his inconsistency was due to the fact that other players had to have the ball a lot. This season, he is the #1 option for the Cal offense. I believe Coleman has been told to score a lot, or at least he has been given the green light. My definition of a ball hog has always been whether you hog the ball when a coach is preaching team offense.

In that light, I don't think Coleman is controlling the ball most of the time. The player who is assigned that job is McNeill, the point guard. He is the one bringing the ball up the floor most of the time, and he is the one deciding what plays, if any, are run. He is the one making the first pass to start a play, much of the time.he is the one doing the most dribbling. Coleman is very good at moving without the ball and getting open. and
I would guess that his teammates have been told to locate him, and get him the ball if he is open. The other thing Coleman does is get his hands on loose balls, and turn those into shot attempts for him. I could be wrong, but the only time I see him controlling the ball is when he makes up his mind to go for a basket or an assist.

Another thing is many teams have players who are reluctant to shoot. On this team, Okoroh, Anticevich, Mcullogh, Winston, and maybe others are reluctant to shoot. Another reason perhaps why Jones designated Coleman as the team's go-to guy, and for everyone else to get him the ball. He is very aggressive.

I am really concerned about this kind of play. Coleman is very talented, and he risks injury every time he gets up in the air. Not only would this kill any chance of team success this season, but he could suffer a serious injury that might affect his future life. I used to have the same concern about Ty Wallace, because he would get up in the air on a drive, out of control, and hit the floor afterwards. However, Wallace had this unique ability to land on the floor softly, usually hitting it at an angle and sliding horizontally to slow his momentum. and he did not get hurt until the very end of his career. Watching Wallace fall was so graceful, it was like watching ballet without the music. Coleman, on the other hand, when he on a drive, usually collides point-blank with the floor. It is a crash, often knocking him woozy or winded, and sometime he needs help to get up. If he continues to olay this way, I can only hope he will make it through the season.

Good observations, SFCity. In fact, in recent games there have been many possessions in which Coleman never touched the ball. I think his crazy drives have colored the perception of some observers. In fact, Coleman is shooting 35% from 3, not great, but not bad.

Your second observation is also spot on. In that, Ty was a lot like Steph Curry, who slides when he hits the floor and doesn't get injured. Actually, Wallace's injury had nothing to do with his driving whatsoever. He jammed his hand during a defense drill (just as Curry's recent injury had nothing to do with driving and falling).
Yogi58
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Yogi Bear said:

ducky23 said:

Yogi Bear said:

TrueBlue42 said:

Quality minutes from Hamilton could help solve this problem.
I don't want to harsh on your buzz, but tonight was a unicorn.
Why do you say that so definitively?
Because it's the truth.
Do you get it now?
ddc_Cal
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"I am really concerned about this kind of play. Coleman is very talented, and he risks injury every time he gets up in the air. Not only would this kill any chance of team success this season, but he could suffer a serious injury that might affect his future life."

Couldn't agree more. If Coleman continues to fall down so much, I don't think he will finish the season playing.

Watching him more closely tonight, it is evident he takes a fall almost every drive -- and most of the falls are for no reason. Maybe he thinks he'll get a foul, I dunno.
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