Cuonzo and the Mathews

concordtom
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I can't help but continue to be upset with CM for the way he let both Jordan and little bro go.
Dumb.
SFCityBear
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concordtom said:

I can't help but continue to be upset with CM for the way he let both Jordan and little bro go.
Dumb.
Jonah is improving fast. He may turn out to be better than Jordan. He can already drive to the basket, for example.
oskidunker
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The father was a problem. Would have like to have him but dont blame Cuonzo.
califortunate
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No idea what your source is for that comment.
But totally false.
bearister
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oskidunker said:

The father was a problem. Would have like to have him but dont blame Cuonzo.


My guess is that Phil already knew what it took us Cal chumps a couple of seasons to figure out and that he advised his sons accordingly. Cuonzo is a master self promoter, and I suppose a pretty darn good recruiter for the time being until people figure out the pattern.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
helltopay1
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It makes sense to surmise that the entire Mathews family was furious at Martin. the logical explanation was that Martin recruited two shooting guards rather than the younger Mathews. We all know that neither of the shooting guards came to Cal. by that time, Mathews the younger had committed to USC. Logical to assume that Mathews the elder ( Phil) advised Jordan to leave Cal as a way to punish Martin. No other scenario makes sense. of course, sometimes logic makes sense, and, sometimes reality is something different.
bearister
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helltopay1 said:

It makes sense to surmise that the entire Mathews family was furious at Martin. the logical explanation was that Martin recruited two shooting guards rather than the younger Mathews. We all know that neither of the shooting guards came to Cal. by that time, Mathews the younger had committed to USC. Logical to assume that Mathews the elder ( Phil) advised Jordan to leave Cal as a way to punish Martin. No other scenario makes sense. of course, sometimes logic makes sense, and, sometimes reality is something different.

So you are discounting the possibility they knew he sucked?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Bobodeluxe
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All of the above. Phil was always willing to share his views with those at the games.
HoopDreams
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To me, Cal would be on an entirely different path if Martin signed the younger Mathews.

Scouting reports were saying he was better/more athletic than Jordan, and I think he is also taller.

Not only would we have kept Mathews, who was talented and a great shooter, but he would have been a senior that would have made the difference that year. We just missed the tournament that year, and there is no doubt in my mind that with a senior Mathews we would have gotten to the Dance, and probably made some noise.

Add to that team would have been the younger Jonah who would have been playing with his brother. Good news all around.

Then this year we would have had another shooter and combo guard, making it a much better team and increasing the overall talent, length and athleticism. Jonah was also a good student.

To make matters worse, Martin went after two other guards that had questionable academics.

For me, this was the single biggest mistake Martin made during his days at Cal, and we have paid for it, and are continuing to pay for it
puget sound cal fan
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...well, of course, there is that.
4thGenCal
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HoopDreams said:

To me, Cal would be on an entirely different path if Martin signed the younger Mathews.

Scouting reports were saying he was better/more athletic than Jordan, and I think he is also taller.

Not only would we have kept Mathews, who was talented and a great shooter, but he would have been a senior that would have made the difference that year. We just missed the tournament that year, and there is no doubt in my mind that with a senior Mathews we would have gotten to the Dance, and probably made some noise.

Add to that team would have been the younger Jonah who would have been playing with his brother. Good news all around.

Then this year we would have had another shooter and combo guard, making it a much better team and increasing the overall talent, length and athleticism. Jonah was also a good student.

To make matters worse, Martin went after two other guards that had questionable academics.

For me, this was the single biggest mistake Martin made during his days at Cal, and we have paid for it, and are continuing to pay for it

Cuonzo can be blamed for offensive half court short comings, but not for losing JM. JM wanted to start and made that a near ultimatim with Coach (directly from Coach and a couple of other starters). JM actually averaged the second most minutes on the team - yet he felt he deserved starting. While he was a knock down excellent spot up shooter (either best or 2nd best outside shooter) he had definite basketball skill deficiencies - namely on ball man defense, and ball handling against pressure. Second his Dad was fueling the importance of his Son starting, to the staff, Third - Gonzaga staff inappropriately contacted JM before gaining direct approval to do so - and this was going on while Few was speaking directly with Coach about acceptable home and home game dates!
Finally JM's personality was absolutely wearing thin with the players - JM would constantly complain/berate players who made mistakes, yet when the coach's (mainly Cuonzo) would criticize JM, he did not take it well and felt he was being singled out. The seniors were initially disappointed he transferred, as they voiced their wish to him to stay for his senior year. However, by late summer, they were of the opinion that the unity and team work/chemistry was better without him - fact. Clearly without him, the team failed to make the tournament. The players opinion, was the failure of the season to win more and make the tournament, was more of other factors; including Raab being either sick or injured in large parts of the season and Bird not always injury free. However yes, they also felt that there were not enough plays drawn up for Raab and that more practice time could have been spent on half court offensive sets. It is important for the readers here to know that the vast majority of players who played for Cuonzo, respected him and would not have traded their time with him for another coach/program etc.
OdontoBear66
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Ah , but as I recall that those of us were suggesting such we're not in good favor with mods at the time. I suspect they were involved in a protective sense with damage control to the program. I will repeat as I said then, Phil Matthews was the puppeteer. A coach who " knew too much for his biz"
helltopay1
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Dear 4th gen cal---your knowledge of goings-on behind the scenes is much appreciated. There is so much that is not known for those not privy to inside information. please do us the honor by lending your thoughts and observations more often on this site. when accurate info is not known, most folks rush in with speculation and wishful thinking.
Big C
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helltopay1 said:

Dear 4th gen cal---your knowledge of goings-on behind the scenes is much appreciated. There is so much that is not known for those not privy to inside information. please do us the honor by lending your thoughts and observations more often on this site. when accurate info is not known, most folks rush in with speculation and wishful thinking.
Yeah, 4th delivers the goods (when he feels it's appropriate). If you want to find some truths to some of the questions that have been argued back and forth about Cal Basketball and Football over the past few years, go back and read what he wrote.
OaktownBear
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bearister said:

helltopay1 said:

It makes sense to surmise that the entire Mathews family was furious at Martin. the logical explanation was that Martin recruited two shooting guards rather than the younger Mathews. We all know that neither of the shooting guards came to Cal. by that time, Mathews the younger had committed to USC. Logical to assume that Mathews the elder ( Phil) advised Jordan to leave Cal as a way to punish Martin. No other scenario makes sense. of course, sometimes logic makes sense, and, sometimes reality is something different.

So you are discounting the possibility they knew he sucked?
I saw Phil coach at USF. If his issue was that he thought Cuonzo sucked, that is definitely a case of the sucking pot calling the sucking kettle sucky.

There is no effing way Phil would have put up with a dad like him when he was coaching. I don't know why some are portraying Phil as some wise sage. He was pretty much known for being an arse when he was a head coach. Frankly, they both were poor coaches, but if I was going to guess who was being a jackass in this scenario it is much more consistent with Phil's personality than Cuonzo's.
OaktownBear
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4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

To me, Cal would be on an entirely different path if Martin signed the younger Mathews.

Scouting reports were saying he was better/more athletic than Jordan, and I think he is also taller.

Not only would we have kept Mathews, who was talented and a great shooter, but he would have been a senior that would have made the difference that year. We just missed the tournament that year, and there is no doubt in my mind that with a senior Mathews we would have gotten to the Dance, and probably made some noise.

Add to that team would have been the younger Jonah who would have been playing with his brother. Good news all around.

Then this year we would have had another shooter and combo guard, making it a much better team and increasing the overall talent, length and athleticism. Jonah was also a good student.

To make matters worse, Martin went after two other guards that had questionable academics.

For me, this was the single biggest mistake Martin made during his days at Cal, and we have paid for it, and are continuing to pay for it

Cuonzo can be blamed for offensive half court short comings, but not for losing JM. JM wanted to start and made that a near ultimatim with Coach (directly from Coach and a couple of other starters). JM actually averaged the second most minutes on the team - yet he felt he deserved starting. While he was a knock down excellent spot up shooter (either best or 2nd best outside shooter) he had definite basketball skill deficiencies - namely on ball man defense, and ball handling against pressure. Second his Dad was fueling the importance of his Son starting, to the staff, Third - Gonzaga staff inappropriately contacted JM before gaining direct approval to do so - and this was going on while Few was speaking directly with Coach about acceptable home and home game dates!
Finally JM's personality was absolutely wearing thin with the players - JM would constantly complain/berate players who made mistakes, yet when the coach's (mainly Cuonzo) would criticize JM, he did not take it well and felt he was being singled out. The seniors were initially disappointed he transferred, as they voiced their wish to him to stay for his senior year. However, by late summer, they were of the opinion that the unity and team work/chemistry was better without him - fact. Clearly without him, the team failed to make the tournament. The players opinion, was the failure of the season to win more and make the tournament, was more of other factors; including Raab being either sick or injured in large parts of the season and Bird not always injury free. However yes, they also felt that there were not enough plays drawn up for Raab and that more practice time could have been spent on half court offensive sets. It is important for the readers here to know that the vast majority of players who played for Cuonzo, respected him and would not have traded their time with him for another coach/program etc.
One of the things that was mentioned at the time was that the staff criticized his shot selection. I pointed out back then that while he was an excellent 3 point shooter (and a useful piece as a shooter) his 2 point shooting percentage was terrible - one of the worst on the team. It was fair to pretty much tell him to stick outside and to stop shooting so much inside the arc (which, by the way, is pretty much what Gonzaga did with him).
mikecohen
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4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

To me, Cal would be on an entirely different path if Martin signed the younger Mathews.

Scouting reports were saying he was better/more athletic than Jordan, and I think he is also taller.

Not only would we have kept Mathews, who was talented and a great shooter, but he would have been a senior that would have made the difference that year. We just missed the tournament that year, and there is no doubt in my mind that with a senior Mathews we would have gotten to the Dance, and probably made some noise.

Add to that team would have been the younger Jonah who would have been playing with his brother. Good news all around.

Then this year we would have had another shooter and combo guard, making it a much better team and increasing the overall talent, length and athleticism. Jonah was also a good student.

To make matters worse, Martin went after two other guards that had questionable academics.

For me, this was the single biggest mistake Martin made during his days at Cal, and we have paid for it, and are continuing to pay for it

Cuonzo can be blamed for offensive half court short comings, but not for losing JM. JM wanted to start and made that a near ultimatim with Coach (directly from Coach and a couple of other starters). JM actually averaged the second most minutes on the team - yet he felt he deserved starting. While he was a knock down excellent spot up shooter (either best or 2nd best outside shooter) he had definite basketball skill deficiencies - namely on ball man defense, and ball handling against pressure. Second his Dad was fueling the importance of his Son starting, to the staff, Third - Gonzaga staff inappropriately contacted JM before gaining direct approval to do so - and this was going on while Few was speaking directly with Coach about acceptable home and home game dates!
Finally JM's personality was absolutely wearing thin with the players - JM would constantly complain/berate players who made mistakes, yet when the coach's (mainly Cuonzo) would criticize JM, he did not take it well and felt he was being singled out. The seniors were initially disappointed he transferred, as they voiced their wish to him to stay for his senior year. However, by late summer, they were of the opinion that the unity and team work/chemistry was better without him - fact. Clearly without him, the team failed to make the tournament. The players opinion, was the failure of the season to win more and make the tournament, was more of other factors; including Raab being either sick or injured in large parts of the season and Bird not always injury free. However yes, they also felt that there were not enough plays drawn up for Raab and that more practice time could have been spent on half court offensive sets. It is important for the readers here to know that the vast majority of players who played for Cuonzo, respected him and would not have traded their time with him for another coach/program etc.
Dear 4th: What happened with Theo?
BC Calfan
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4thGenCal said:



Finally JM's personality was absolutely wearing thin with the players - JM would constantly complain/berate players who made mistakes, yet when the coach's (mainly Cuonzo) would criticize JM, he did not take it well and felt he was being singled out.
I too heard this. He was a disruptive force at practice---a know it all.

BTW it was mentioned on another thread but Chauca also had similar disruptive issues. But he was just more of a baby and his act wore thin.
concordtom
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Ha! Good question, MC!
Perhaps you'll have to start a specific thread. And wait until the relevant parties are all no longer at Cal.

Thx for shedding the light, 4thG.
Bobodeluxe
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Revisionist history. I urge a train car of salt.

Whatever.
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