OneKeg said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

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Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

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Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

HoopDreams said:

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This game is the pinnacle of when you shouldn't say something too early

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I think game 6 was the pinnacle. Down by 17, win by 29. This was close though.

concordtom said:

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Draymond did not play well these past games, imho.

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I agree. He's a defender/rebounder right now. He's lost confidence on the offensive end and his assist numbers get inflated when he makes a simple outside pass and one of the W's sharpshooters makes a long shot.

Durant has less moxie than previously imagined. It's still very very high, and he has tons of talent, I've loved him since TX, knew he'd be a star! But it's interesting watching these athletes compete on the high wire.

Even draymond said post game that he was surprised to see the guy talking the most in the halftime locker was Klay. They are like children, growing up before our eyes. Sometimes they really sprout up, and sometimes they shrink.

The stage.

Anyways, I'm just saying, Durant is not a "killer" like Jordan and Kobe were. Of course, that had its downsides, too. Neither were terrific teammates. On a team of true all stars you've gotta be able to balance the spotlight, the ball. I'm always thinking of this for my fantasy all-star team. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the dish. If you picked a fantasy team of all alpha males, they'd tear each other apart.

Tim Duncan, Kareem, Olajuwon... none were "me first" players.
Jordan is such a supreme talent, but you gotta pick guys who would gell with him.
Personalities, the back story to championships. Kinda like my prior quote at the end of page 4 about the coaches getting rattled, or not. It's not just shot making, but the mental part of the game!!

Houston, 27 missed 3's in a row? How does that even happen at this level???

82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

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Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

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Sure but the example you give is at least arguably still a (borderline) foul, or at least qualifies as generally-accepted gamesmanship on Harden's part.

What happened on "Bell's moving screen" is something that no one should ever consider a foul on Bell if they see the whole play in detail. It really should have been a foul on Harden and Bell should have been shooting a FT on top of Curry's 3. But at least it was a good job by the refs for not getting completely fooled as they often are.

Here are a couple others (out of many) from Harden's career:

Blatantly hooking defender in plain sight.

Here's one off the ball like the one on Bell (just on O, not D) where Harden hooks and throws down his man at the edge of the key but actually benefits from it.

Harden even does it to Lebron.

Extremely talented offensive player. But come on.

82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

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Harden is talented. No doubt. But he's also extremely gimmicky and he got exposed in the playoffs.

Right now all of Houston is howling cause of the refs. What they don't realize is that the ticky tack calls harden is used to getting in the regular season you can't count on getting called in the playoffs.

Harden is more than welcome to continue his career by trying to game the system and just searching for contact. And he can continue to dominate the regular season and fade in the playoffs.

Harden and Paul commit a ridiculous number of uncalled offensive fouls every game. Paul is just one of the dirtiest players in the league and does it on both ends and I guess because of his rep or size or something doesn't get called. Harden pushes off or makes swim moves a lot. Amazing scorer but just ugly to watch and very friendly refereeing reliant.

OneKeg said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

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Sure but the example you give is at least arguably still a (borderline) foul, or at least qualifies as generally-accepted gamesmanship on Harden's part.

What happened on "Bell's moving screen" is something that no one should ever consider a foul on Bell if they see the whole play in detail. It really should have been a foul on Harden and Bell should have been shooting a FT on top of Curry's 3. But at least it was a good job by the refs for not getting completely fooled as they often are.

Here are a couple others (out of many) from Harden's career:

Blatantly hooking defender in plain sight.

Here's one off the ball like the one on Bell (just on O, not D) where Harden hooks and throws down his man at the edge of the key but actually benefits from it.

Harden even does it to Lebron.

Extremely talented offensive player. But come on.

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You make a very good argument with the 3 vids. And I think that it's both veteran wise and also stupid of him to engage in such antics, for these reasons:

1) he ruins his reputation so that he doesn't get important calls when it matters later on. Word gets around with refs, as you've shown here.
2) he should spend the time he's devoted to this craft on perfecting his finishing aspect of games. That he came up unable to close out games 6&7 after being spotted 17 and 15 point leads says something.

THAT SAID, can you show me a different angle which proves your assertion that Harden was to blame for the Bell screen foul? Looking at this, it appears to be all Bell.

Are you saying harden grabs him with the left hand and pulls him back to the official?
I dunno....
More angles needed. I saw one on the telecast and it looked like bell stuck his butt out and then backed up.

Maybe it's the officials way of getting revenge. "You gonna trick us into calling all that ticky tack bs during the season, we're gonna let you know what we think about it."

I imagine there's a lot that goes on, and is said, behind the scenes we have no clue about.

Harden definitely grabs Bell's arm, but does he push/pull Bell as well?

one benefit of the Warriors' experience seemed to be that they had a better idea of what would and wouldn't be a foul in this type of setting (after the first few minutes anyway). Most refs don't want to be the ones to decide a game like this. All the times that Curry gets hugged or his jersey grabbed or whatever off the ball, or when he drives into a bunch of bodies and gets bumped to the ground, that stuff doesn't get called late in the playoffs in key situations. Probably should but doesn't. So when Harden drives into 2 or 3 guys and it looks like there was probably a foul in there somewhere but you can't really identify it, that's not free throws in game 7 of the conference finals. It is free throws in game 7 of the regular season.

OneKeg said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

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What happened on "Bell's moving screen" is something that no one should ever consider a foul on Bell if they see the whole play in detail. It really should have been a foul on Harden and Bell should have been shooting a FT on top of Curry's 3. But at least it was a good job by the refs for not getting completely fooled as they often are.

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I don't agree. Looked to me like Bell set a moving screen, and then Harden tried to counteract it by push/pulling him. You can't "see the whole play" in a situation like this - Bell's foul came first and would have ended the play. But, I agree - I think the refs have been doing a good job letting the players play, so I appreciate the no-call.

Although, there was absolutely one play where Tucker or Gordon drove the lane and got fouled by two players and there was no foul call. That was completely absurd. Announcers called it a "double foul" on the replay.

GMP said:

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OneKeg said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

---

What happened on "Bell's moving screen" is something that no one should ever consider a foul on Bell if they see the whole play in detail. It really should have been a foul on Harden and Bell should have been shooting a FT on top of Curry's 3. But at least it was a good job by the refs for not getting completely fooled as they often are.

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I don't agree. Looked to me like Bell set a moving screen, and then Harden tried to counteract it by push/pulling him. You can't "see the whole play" in a situation like this - Bell's foul came first and would have ended the play. But, I agree - I think the refs have been doing a good job letting the players play, so I appreciate the no-call.

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Sounds like we disagree - I think you can see Bell plant his feet just as Harden gets to him - it's right at a moment when Bell's feet are wide apart if you're looking at it on the above close-up. Bell is essentially stationary and all the rest of the "moving" is caused by Harden grabbing and dragging Bell. So I don't think it was a moving screen on Bell's part.

I'm fine with the no-call. My "foul on Harden" point was admittedly just exasperation at the howling by Rockets fans to call that on Bell.

There were a couple other plays that could have been legitimate fouls on the Warriors. One in particular where the Warriors fouled Gordon as mentioned above, and another on a Harden 3 attempt (but not all of them). Meanwhile, there were plays where Curry was fouled on a drive, or one Rockets player shoved Durant into Harden and Durant was called for the foul. During the Rockets' first half run, a couple times Warrior turnovers came from entry passes which, while sloppy, mostly resulted in turnovers because the target (often Looney or Bell) were mauled.

It happens. It's the playoffs. The refs are not going to call everything. Curry has not shot a free throw since game 5.

OneKeg said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

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thanks for pointing that out
I don't watch a lot of NBA except the Western/Eastern finals and the Finals

when I do watch, I'm amazed/shocked at the difference between college/pro ball.
One of the big differences I see are the screens (looks more like TE's blocking) and all the grabbing, hooking

much more dirty play in the nba (and Harden is one of the worst)

GMP said:

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OneKeg said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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OneKeg said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

Although you know you're playing in the nba when you {Bell} take out a player and move him 3 feet back and not get called for the moving screen

---

Watch the alternate angles on that play.

Harden hooked Bell's arm, then backpedaled and fell backwards, dragging Bell with him to try to make it look like a moving screen. Great job by the officials not buying it.

---

Yes. Harden is a master at creating fouls. A couple of times he was 28 ft from the basket with the ball and felt a hand check. He immediately went up for a shot by swinging his arms right into the outstretched defender's arm. It was really impressive actually. And that is just one of his many moves. And he doesn't just focus on making contact, he actually causes the foul while still being able to make the shots. Incredible.

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What happened on "Bell's moving screen" is something that no one should ever consider a foul on Bell if they see the whole play in detail. It really should have been a foul on Harden and Bell should have been shooting a FT on top of Curry's 3. But at least it was a good job by the refs for not getting completely fooled as they often are.

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I don't agree. Looked to me like Bell set a moving screen, and then Harden tried to counteract it by push/pulling him. You can't "see the whole play" in a situation like this - Bell's foul came first and would have ended the play. But, I agree - I think the refs have been doing a good job letting the players play, so I appreciate the no-call.

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I agree with GMP, it does look like Bell is initially moving. but i don't think harden did himself any favors by trying to drag bell in an obvious attempt to exaggerate the contact.

i read something in the athletic this morning that refs watch a lot of film before the game to identify players' tendencies.

i think this may be a case where harden's rep got the best of him. if it anyone other than harden, maybe they get the call.

I think there were some bad calls that hurt the Rockets in Game 7 but the Rockets are the last team in the association that can complain about officiating seeing as a huge part of Harden's game is essentially arbitraging the officiating. He has so many ugly (and often clever) little tricks to get to the line that makes him a great player but also at times unwatchable. Of course, without those moves he wouldn't get to the line 10+ times per game and wouldn't be the MVP this year.

He had a brutal WCF run after game 1 and I think if you look at his Q1 vs Q2-4 numbers in each game it would show a very big split. He needs to get more fit if he wants to show better in the playoffs because this is year after year of the exact same thing.

Harden isn't the MVP seems to me Lebron James is again.

Unit2Sucks said:

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I think there were some bad calls that hurt the Rockets in Game 7 but the Rockets are the last team in the association that can complain about officiating seeing as a huge part of Harden's game is essentially arbitraging the officiating. He has so many ugly (and often clever) little tricks to get to the line that makes him a great player but also at times unwatchable. Of course, without those moves he wouldn't get to the line 10+ times per game and wouldn't be the MVP this year.

He had a brutal WCF run after game 1 and I think if you look at his Q1 vs Q2-4 numbers in each game it would show a very big split. He needs to get more fit if he wants to show better in the playoffs because this is year after year of the exact same thing.

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interesting that refs watch for player tendencies. makes sense as they are the elite refs that get hand picked for the playoffs, and it doesn't get any bigger than the west/east finals and the finals.

it was so obvious that harden spends a lot of time hunting for fouls. He's got it down to an art, but I'm sure the refs don't want to reward that approach since it basically is gaming the system. If a player tries it occasionally, the refs have to call it straight up, but Harden was trying it every possession.

it's like in college where a player is constantly flopping. If you reward it too much it continues. It just takes once for the no call to stop it since the flopper will be laying on the ground watching his man make the uncontested basket

after watching Harden, I now don't even think he deserves the MVP.

7-44 from 3 is why the Rockets lost, not officiating.

DCW67MSW said:

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Harden isn't the MVP seems to me Lebron James is again.

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If the MVP was decided now, for the period including the playoffs, it'd be Lebron for sure, but I believe it is based only on the regular season. Harden's got it in the bag.

Similar situation to when Jordan was playing. He could've gotten it EVERY year, but that would've gotten boring.

Rockets pulled Ryan Anderson as every possession while playing GSW did iso on him... Similar to McGee and ZaZa not getting PT, in that with the Pick n Roll iso both teams doing alot of, as soon as a D player without good lateral movement in game, each team just go after that player until he is back to bench...

8 minutes of PT, -12 on +- .


How to play GSW if I am Cavs? Lebron does pick with Curry, and get switch... pass out and set up on low block with entry to Lebron with Curry having to guard him on low block.. Clear weak side out to reduce doubles and let Lebron deal... Get Curry into foul trouble early on each game... (as Klay got 3 early fouls in game 7)
Not that I want Cavs to do this, but that is how I would go into each game vs GSW with Lebron.



goGSW
goBears