Frank and Theo

OneTopOneChickenApple
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SFCityBear said:

OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

Go!Bears said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

Go!Bears said:

Or Theo and Frank. I have no idea if it is even something they would consider but it seems to me that a reunion of Theo Robertson and his old coach (an advisor now at USF) Frank Allocco could be exactly what our young team needs. It would be great for Theo to have strong mentor. Might be great for Frank to get back to what he has done so well (teach athletes how to play the game). Allocco has taken the role of Associate Head Coach before. It probably would not be terribly expensive and I think they would certainly know how to right the ship.
Why do people have such low aspirations for our basketball program?


As I said before, tell me what we are willing to spend and I might consider figuring out who might be a good candidate. If our price point is the same as last time, this might be a legitimate option. It's not what I aspire to, but I'm assuming the OP is assuming that we are on a tight budget. For the same money I think it likely better than the last choice, not that that is the standard we want to go with
That is kind of where I was coming from. I do not see us showing up in Utah (or wherever) with a Brinks truck and it is also true that I think an alum is our only real hope long term. Why do I have such low aspirations? What is it about the last 30 years of Cal basketball that makes anyone think we will hire, or could retain a 'rock star' coach? I believe we need to build a coach. Take someone not yet ready and invest in them. I think it needs to be an alum because I think only an alum might stick with us if they ever break through to the top tier. Theo is someone who might be worth that investment, but he needs help. Because of the relationship to Allocco who has proven he can teach, it seems like something that might work. I think the best we can hope for is a roll of the dice. Why not take a chance on Theo? He was astute enough to see early that Wyking was a bust.
You make good points. I feel your pain and frustration. But the biggest drawback to hiring a guy like Jones is that he had never been a head coach at any level from pee-wee to college. He had never been the guy fully responsible for a team's play. He had never had any experience trying his ideas, methods, strategies or tactics out to see if they worked. He had never been held accountable by players, press, or fans before, and Cal chose to throw him into the lions' den or into the fire. He agreed, and even if Cal retains him, he has dug himself a hole, as has Cal, which will be a few years digging out of for either party. No offense, but Theo (and Dennis Gates) has the same problem, lack of ever having been the head man anywhere. Maybe you can name some successful head coaches who had never been head coaches at any level. There must be some, but I can't think of any. Allocco has the high school chops, and would be less of a risk than Theo in my mind, in terms of having been the head guy at some level, but I'm not sure it translates to a jump to the next level, where the age and maturity of players is different. As I've said before, two of San Francisco's most successful high school coaches Herrerias and Ben Neff, failed as college head coaches. And nobody had a better basketball mind than Rene. The era in which he coached had some truly great challenges both in opponents and in a new culture, but his teams could have done better. Mike Montgomery was a darn good college coach. He was successful first and Montana, then at Stanford, and at Cal.. I felt the game was beginning to pass him by with all the rule changes, some designed to take away the things his Stanford teams did best, like defense, and a more structured offense. He failed to be successful in the NBA, in a culture of athletic stars, different rules and a faster shot clock. I would rather see us do a search for an experienced head coach. And put some focus on the parochial schools. Xavier, for example, is a training ground for head coaches, like Thad Matta, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack. Those priests and nuns know basketball, based on the success of small schools like USF, Villanova, Gonzaga, Chicago Loyola, Marquette, and many more. There may be more diamonds in the parochial rough somewhere.
You make good points too, and not necessarily disagreeing, but here's a list off the top of my head of head coaches who started successfully without previous head coaching experience. I'm sure there are more. Just saying it's not impossible.

I was really hoping we hired Travis DeCuire when we had a chance.

You mentioned Chris Mack and Sean Miller - Xavier
Tom Izzo - Michigan State
Kevin Ollie - UConn (OK, he cheated)
Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
Gary Cunningham - UCLA
Bobby Knight - Army
Gregg Marshall - Winthrop

Greg Popovich - Spurs
Paul Westhead, Pat Riley - Lakers
Steve Kerr - Dubs
This is a great list. Thanks for posting it. I will look into it, and it will probably cause me to revamp my thinking on the subject.
I forgot Mark Few of Gonzaga. And just for kicks, Ben Braun.
ducky23
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SFCityBear said:

Go!Bears said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

Go!Bears said:

Or Theo and Frank. I have no idea if it is even something they would consider but it seems to me that a reunion of Theo Robertson and his old coach (an advisor now at USF) Frank Allocco could be exactly what our young team needs. It would be great for Theo to have strong mentor. Might be great for Frank to get back to what he has done so well (teach athletes how to play the game). Allocco has taken the role of Associate Head Coach before. It probably would not be terribly expensive and I think they would certainly know how to right the ship.
Why do people have such low aspirations for our basketball program?


As I said before, tell me what we are willing to spend and I might consider figuring out who might be a good candidate. If our price point is the same as last time, this might be a legitimate option. It's not what I aspire to, but I'm assuming the OP is assuming that we are on a tight budget. For the same money I think it likely better than the last choice, not that that is the standard we want to go with
That is kind of where I was coming from. I do not see us showing up in Utah (or wherever) with a Brinks truck and it is also true that I think an alum is our only real hope long term. Why do I have such low aspirations? What is it about the last 30 years of Cal basketball that makes anyone think we will hire, or could retain a 'rock star' coach? I believe we need to build a coach. Take someone not yet ready and invest in them. I think it needs to be an alum because I think only an alum might stick with us if they ever break through to the top tier. Theo is someone who might be worth that investment, but he needs help. Because of the relationship to Allocco who has proven he can teach, it seems like something that might work. I think the best we can hope for is a roll of the dice. Why not take a chance on Theo? He was astute enough to see early that Wyking was a bust.
Since you like alums for the job, here are a couple of names which I don't think have been mentioned yet: Shantay Legans and Richard Midgely. Legans is currently the head coach at Eastern Washington, and Midgely was a head coach in high school for a couple of years, and is now a scout for the Atlanta Hawks.

As for Theo, I don't know what his credentials are exactly, his previous responsibilities. Dennis Gates was a good individual defensive player, so he might know something of defense, and that, in my opinion, is Cal's greatest need, now and going forward, to develop a much stronger defense. That will require a defense-minded coach, who will pay attention to defense when recruiting, and who will recruit big men who have some instincts and fundamentals in that area, as rare as that may be. And he will have to be able to teach tough defense, not just the flavor-of-the-year zone defense, or the full court press for 40 minutes, but individual man defense fundamentals, on which all other defenses are based to some extent. A tough man defender is usually better in a zone than a player who has mostly been playing zone. Midgely was a tough defender as a player, Legans not so much.

Cal has tried an alum as head football coach with mixed results: Ray Willsey a backup QB, was an outstanding defensive coach, but not much of and offensive coach, and his teams played like it. Mike White was an end at Cal, and as a head coach, his offenses were well designed and effective. He put it all together in 1975, defense and offense. Joe Kapp was a player with more sheer drive and will to win than he was a strategist, and as Cal's head coach, his teams failed, except for one play we will always love him for (and of course, his playing days).




While we are at it, I heard Randy duck was coaching the girls srv team.
Go!Bears
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socaliganbear said:

Go!Bears said:

socaliganbear said:

This thread is a reminder of why the Wyking hire is allowed to happen. The AD knows that we will never demand better.
I think you are right, but this is where we are. The question is, since this is where we are, what is the best path forward. 20 people on an Internet board can demand better all day long but the Cal community is what it is. We are not UCLA, we are never going to be UCLA and we are not going to do what UCLA does. We need to find a path that works for us. How do we find our own Mark Few? A coach who can win here and yet will stay?


I don't agree that hiring a high school coach is were we're at tbh.
Agreed. The thought was that Theo might be the future. The HS guy is the bridge.
SFCityBear
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OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

Go!Bears said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

Go!Bears said:

Or Theo and Frank. I have no idea if it is even something they would consider but it seems to me that a reunion of Theo Robertson and his old coach (an advisor now at USF) Frank Allocco could be exactly what our young team needs. It would be great for Theo to have strong mentor. Might be great for Frank to get back to what he has done so well (teach athletes how to play the game). Allocco has taken the role of Associate Head Coach before. It probably would not be terribly expensive and I think they would certainly know how to right the ship.
Why do people have such low aspirations for our basketball program?


As I said before, tell me what we are willing to spend and I might consider figuring out who might be a good candidate. If our price point is the same as last time, this might be a legitimate option. It's not what I aspire to, but I'm assuming the OP is assuming that we are on a tight budget. For the same money I think it likely better than the last choice, not that that is the standard we want to go with
That is kind of where I was coming from. I do not see us showing up in Utah (or wherever) with a Brinks truck and it is also true that I think an alum is our only real hope long term. Why do I have such low aspirations? What is it about the last 30 years of Cal basketball that makes anyone think we will hire, or could retain a 'rock star' coach? I believe we need to build a coach. Take someone not yet ready and invest in them. I think it needs to be an alum because I think only an alum might stick with us if they ever break through to the top tier. Theo is someone who might be worth that investment, but he needs help. Because of the relationship to Allocco who has proven he can teach, it seems like something that might work. I think the best we can hope for is a roll of the dice. Why not take a chance on Theo? He was astute enough to see early that Wyking was a bust.
You make good points. I feel your pain and frustration. But the biggest drawback to hiring a guy like Jones is that he had never been a head coach at any level from pee-wee to college. He had never been the guy fully responsible for a team's play. He had never had any experience trying his ideas, methods, strategies or tactics out to see if they worked. He had never been held accountable by players, press, or fans before, and Cal chose to throw him into the lions' den or into the fire. He agreed, and even if Cal retains him, he has dug himself a hole, as has Cal, which will be a few years digging out of for either party. No offense, but Theo (and Dennis Gates) has the same problem, lack of ever having been the head man anywhere. Maybe you can name some successful head coaches who had never been head coaches at any level. There must be some, but I can't think of any. Allocco has the high school chops, and would be less of a risk than Theo in my mind, in terms of having been the head guy at some level, but I'm not sure it translates to a jump to the next level, where the age and maturity of players is different. As I've said before, two of San Francisco's most successful high school coaches Herrerias and Ben Neff, failed as college head coaches. And nobody had a better basketball mind than Rene. The era in which he coached had some truly great challenges both in opponents and in a new culture, but his teams could have done better. Mike Montgomery was a darn good college coach. He was successful first and Montana, then at Stanford, and at Cal.. I felt the game was beginning to pass him by with all the rule changes, some designed to take away the things his Stanford teams did best, like defense, and a more structured offense. He failed to be successful in the NBA, in a culture of athletic stars, different rules and a faster shot clock. I would rather see us do a search for an experienced head coach. And put some focus on the parochial schools. Xavier, for example, is a training ground for head coaches, like Thad Matta, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack. Those priests and nuns know basketball, based on the success of small schools like USF, Villanova, Gonzaga, Chicago Loyola, Marquette, and many more. There may be more diamonds in the parochial rough somewhere.
You make good points too, and not necessarily disagreeing, but here's a list off the top of my head of head coaches who started successfully without previous head coaching experience. I'm sure there are more. Just saying it's not impossible.

I was really hoping we hired Travis DeCuire when we had a chance.

You mentioned Chris Mack and Sean Miller - Xavier
Tom Izzo - Michigan State
Kevin Ollie - UConn (OK, he cheated)
Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
Gary Cunningham - UCLA
Bobby Knight - Army
Gregg Marshall - Winthrop

Greg Popovich - Spurs
Paul Westhead, Pat Riley - Lakers
Steve Kerr - Dubs
This is a great list. Thanks for posting it. I will look into it, and it will probably cause me to revamp my thinking on the subject.
I forgot Mark Few of Gonzaga. And just for kicks, Ben Braun.
SFCityBear
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SFCityBear said:

OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

Go!Bears said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

Go!Bears said:

Or Theo and Frank. I have no idea if it is even something they would consider but it seems to me that a reunion of Theo Robertson and his old coach (an advisor now at USF) Frank Allocco could be exactly what our young team needs. It would be great for Theo to have strong mentor. Might be great for Frank to get back to what he has done so well (teach athletes how to play the game). Allocco has taken the role of Associate Head Coach before. It probably would not be terribly expensive and I think they would certainly know how to right the ship.
Why do people have such low aspirations for our basketball program?


As I said before, tell me what we are willing to spend and I might consider figuring out who might be a good candidate. If our price point is the same as last time, this might be a legitimate option. It's not what I aspire to, but I'm assuming the OP is assuming that we are on a tight budget. For the same money I think it likely better than the last choice, not that that is the standard we want to go with
That is kind of where I was coming from. I do not see us showing up in Utah (or wherever) with a Brinks truck and it is also true that I think an alum is our only real hope long term. Why do I have such low aspirations? What is it about the last 30 years of Cal basketball that makes anyone think we will hire, or could retain a 'rock star' coach? I believe we need to build a coach. Take someone not yet ready and invest in them. I think it needs to be an alum because I think only an alum might stick with us if they ever break through to the top tier. Theo is someone who might be worth that investment, but he needs help. Because of the relationship to Allocco who has proven he can teach, it seems like something that might work. I think the best we can hope for is a roll of the dice. Why not take a chance on Theo? He was astute enough to see early that Wyking was a bust.
You make good points. I feel your pain and frustration. But the biggest drawback to hiring a guy like Jones is that he had never been a head coach at any level from pee-wee to college. He had never been the guy fully responsible for a team's play. He had never had any experience trying his ideas, methods, strategies or tactics out to see if they worked. He had never been held accountable by players, press, or fans before, and Cal chose to throw him into the lions' den or into the fire. He agreed, and even if Cal retains him, he has dug himself a hole, as has Cal, which will be a few years digging out of for either party. No offense, but Theo (and Dennis Gates) has the same problem, lack of ever having been the head man anywhere. Maybe you can name some successful head coaches who had never been head coaches at any level. There must be some, but I can't think of any. Allocco has the high school chops, and would be less of a risk than Theo in my mind, in terms of having been the head guy at some level, but I'm not sure it translates to a jump to the next level, where the age and maturity of players is different. As I've said before, two of San Francisco's most successful high school coaches Herrerias and Ben Neff, failed as college head coaches. And nobody had a better basketball mind than Rene. The era in which he coached had some truly great challenges both in opponents and in a new culture, but his teams could have done better. Mike Montgomery was a darn good college coach. He was successful first and Montana, then at Stanford, and at Cal.. I felt the game was beginning to pass him by with all the rule changes, some designed to take away the things his Stanford teams did best, like defense, and a more structured offense. He failed to be successful in the NBA, in a culture of athletic stars, different rules and a faster shot clock. I would rather see us do a search for an experienced head coach. And put some focus on the parochial schools. Xavier, for example, is a training ground for head coaches, like Thad Matta, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack. Those priests and nuns know basketball, based on the success of small schools like USF, Villanova, Gonzaga, Chicago Loyola, Marquette, and many more. There may be more diamonds in the parochial rough somewhere.
You make good points too, and not necessarily disagreeing, but here's a list off the top of my head of head coaches who started successfully without previous head coaching experience. I'm sure there are more. Just saying it's not impossible.

I was really hoping we hired Travis DeCuire when we had a chance.

You mentioned Chris Mack and Sean Miller - Xavier
Tom Izzo - Michigan State
Kevin Ollie - UConn (OK, he cheated)
Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
Gary Cunningham - UCLA
Bobby Knight - Army
Gregg Marshall - Winthrop

Greg Popovich - Spurs
Paul Westhead, Pat Riley - Lakers
Steve Kerr - Dubs
This is a great list. Thanks for posting it. I will look into it, and it will probably cause me to revamp my thinking on the subject.
I forgot Mark Few of Gonzaga. And just for kicks, Ben Braun.

Oops. Hit the wrong key. Ben Braun did get his first head coaching job with no experience, at Sienna College, where he was successful, and even more successful as head coach at Eastern Michigan, before Cal hired him.
SFCityBear
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OneTopOneChickenApple said:

SFCityBear said:

Go!Bears said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

Go!Bears said:

Or Theo and Frank. I have no idea if it is even something they would consider but it seems to me that a reunion of Theo Robertson and his old coach (an advisor now at USF) Frank Allocco could be exactly what our young team needs. It would be great for Theo to have strong mentor. Might be great for Frank to get back to what he has done so well (teach athletes how to play the game). Allocco has taken the role of Associate Head Coach before. It probably would not be terribly expensive and I think they would certainly know how to right the ship.
Why do people have such low aspirations for our basketball program?


As I said before, tell me what we are willing to spend and I might consider figuring out who might be a good candidate. If our price point is the same as last time, this might be a legitimate option. It's not what I aspire to, but I'm assuming the OP is assuming that we are on a tight budget. For the same money I think it likely better than the last choice, not that that is the standard we want to go with
That is kind of where I was coming from. I do not see us showing up in Utah (or wherever) with a Brinks truck and it is also true that I think an alum is our only real hope long term. Why do I have such low aspirations? What is it about the last 30 years of Cal basketball that makes anyone think we will hire, or could retain a 'rock star' coach? I believe we need to build a coach. Take someone not yet ready and invest in them. I think it needs to be an alum because I think only an alum might stick with us if they ever break through to the top tier. Theo is someone who might be worth that investment, but he needs help. Because of the relationship to Allocco who has proven he can teach, it seems like something that might work. I think the best we can hope for is a roll of the dice. Why not take a chance on Theo? He was astute enough to see early that Wyking was a bust.
You make good points. I feel your pain and frustration. But the biggest drawback to hiring a guy like Jones is that he had never been a head coach at any level from pee-wee to college. He had never been the guy fully responsible for a team's play. He had never had any experience trying his ideas, methods, strategies or tactics out to see if they worked. He had never been held accountable by players, press, or fans before, and Cal chose to throw him into the lions' den or into the fire. He agreed, and even if Cal retains him, he has dug himself a hole, as has Cal, which will be a few years digging out of for either party. No offense, but Theo (and Dennis Gates) has the same problem, lack of ever having been the head man anywhere. Maybe you can name some successful head coaches who had never been head coaches at any level. There must be some, but I can't think of any. Allocco has the high school chops, and would be less of a risk than Theo in my mind, in terms of having been the head guy at some level, but I'm not sure it translates to a jump to the next level, where the age and maturity of players is different. As I've said before, two of San Francisco's most successful high school coaches Herrerias and Ben Neff, failed as college head coaches. And nobody had a better basketball mind than Rene. The era in which he coached had some truly great challenges both in opponents and in a new culture, but his teams could have done better. Mike Montgomery was a darn good college coach. He was successful first and Montana, then at Stanford, and at Cal.. I felt the game was beginning to pass him by with all the rule changes, some designed to take away the things his Stanford teams did best, like defense, and a more structured offense. He failed to be successful in the NBA, in a culture of athletic stars, different rules and a faster shot clock. I would rather see us do a search for an experienced head coach. And put some focus on the parochial schools. Xavier, for example, is a training ground for head coaches, like Thad Matta, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack. Those priests and nuns know basketball, based on the success of small schools like USF, Villanova, Gonzaga, Chicago Loyola, Marquette, and many more. There may be more diamonds in the parochial rough somewhere.
You make good points too, and not necessarily disagreeing, but here's a list off the top of my head of head coaches who started successfully without previous head coaching experience. I'm sure there are more. Just saying it's not impossible.

I was really hoping we hired Travis DeCuire when we had a chance.

You mentioned Chris Mack and Sean Miller - Xavier
Tom Izzo - Michigan State
Kevin Ollie - UConn (OK, he cheated)
Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
Gary Cunningham - UCLA
Bobby Knight - Army
Gregg Marshall - Winthrop

Greg Popovich - Spurs
Paul Westhead, Pat Riley - Lakers
Steve Kerr - Dubs
Chris Mack was a high school head coach for 5 years before he got a college assistant job. Tom Izzo was a high school head coach for 3 years before he became a college assistant.

John Wooden was a high school head coach for 11 years before he got the head coaching job at Indiana State.

If we are looking at coaches who got their first job with no previous head coaching (or any coaching) experience, we need look no farther than Pete Newell, whose first job was head coach of USF, and a couple of years later he won the national championship at USF.

Greg Popovich was a head coach at Pomona Pitzer (with a record of 76-129) before he landed an NBA job.

In thinking about it, I don't think naming NBA coaches here is quite relevant to college coaches, as the NBA players are much older, more fundamentally sound, and far more experienced, than coaching kids coming out of high school into college before they fully mature. Plus, the NBA quite often hires a former player with no experience coaching to be a head coach. But if we do want to look at pro coaches, we don't have to look much farther than the Warriors head coaches who got their first head coaching job with an NBA team: Alex Hannum, Bill Sharman, Al Attles, Don Nelson, Mark Jackson, and Steve Kerr whom you mentioned.
SFCityBear
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joe amos yaks said:

Don't overlook Creighton and Dayton.
Well, it was Loyola Marymount that produced two of the best coaches of all time, Pete Newell and Phil Woolpert, who played on the same team. Newell got the USF job with no experience coaching, and Woolpert was head coach at St Ignatius High School for 4 years before he was named the head coach at USF. Back in the day when Bay Area basketball was the best in the country.
Yogi Bear
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UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.
Yogi Bear
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ducky23 said:

Go!Bears said:

Do you know what a straw man is?


Let me give you some advice. Yogi is like trump. He picks a fight with everyone and you will never beat his "logic". I've learned to stop responding to him long ago.
Just because you aren't able to outdebate me doesn't mean that nobody can.
smokeyrover
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SFCityBear said:


Since you like alums for the job, here are a couple of names which I don't think have been mentioned yet: Shantay Legans and Richard Midgely. Legans is currently the head coach at Eastern Washington, and Midgely was a head coach in high school for a couple of years, and is now a scout for the Atlanta Hawks.


There is a Cal alum coaching college basketball who is 19-3 this year. Won 25 games last year.
Yogi Bear
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Go!Bears said:

Do you know what a straw man is?
Yes, but clearly you don't.

Hint: I never said we should try to hire a "rock star" coach. You did.
Yogi Bear
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BeachedBear said:

Since Knowlton relies on BI for his decision making, I'll offer up two solid pieces of advice for the next hire.

  • Don't use retention of a future class as a rationale for retaining a coach. Good players and bad coaching is not a recipe for success.
  • Don't worry about someone using Cal as a stepping stone to greener pastures. Even one good season is better than the last two.

Good to see some people don't fall into the typiCal loser mindset.
Yogi Bear
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UrsaMajor said:

BeachedBear said:

Since Knowlton relies on BI for his decision making, I'll offer up two solid pieces of advice for the next hire.

  • Don't use retention of a future class as a rationale for retaining a coach. Good players and bad coaching is not a recipe for success.
  • Don't worry about someone using Cal as a stepping stone to greener pastures. Even one good season is better than the last two.

You mean like Cuonzo's "one good season?" Where did that leave us.
You must really want to get rid of Wyking if you think 18-15 and 21-13 years were bad seasons.
Yogi Bear
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smokeyrover said:

SFCityBear said:


Since you like alums for the job, here are a couple of names which I don't think have been mentioned yet: Shantay Legans and Richard Midgely. Legans is currently the head coach at Eastern Washington, and Midgely was a head coach in high school for a couple of years, and is now a scout for the Atlanta Hawks.
There is a Cal alum coaching college basketball who is 19-3 this year. Won 25 games last year.
Who is it?
SFCityBear
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Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.


News Bulletin: Mariucci was an average or mediocre college coach and an average or mediocre NFL coach. a .500 coach at both levels. He was 6-6 at Cal, finished 5th in the PAC10, and lost in the Aloha Bowl. He was 72-67 in the NFL in 9 seasons, and made the playoffs 4 times, losing in the NFC Championship game, losing twice in the divisional playoff, and losing once in a wild card game. Maybe he "could win a Super Bowl", but he didn't, because none of his teams were good enough to even get to the Super Bowl. He was not a "GOOD" coach.

It is quite an accomplishment to get some teams to play .500 ball in the NFL, but he did not go beyond that, which is what I assume is what you want. Do you really want to settle for a .500 coach, who likely will never win the big one? Just because Mariucci said that was his goal does not mean he would ever get there. And in order to get there, he would have to leave Cal, which is not what I'd want a job applicant to be saying, setting me up to accept the fact that he will be leaving, sooner or later.

UrsaMajor was exactly right in his assessment of Mariucci, and if Mariucci actually said that, then I'd disqualify him too. I can't think of a similar situation in basketball, but let's say a candidate for the current Cal job says his goal is to win the NBA Championship one day (instead of saying his goal is to coach Cal to a win in the NCAA Final game) Do you hire him, or not?

SFCityBear
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Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:

BeachedBear said:

Since Knowlton relies on BI for his decision making, I'll offer up two solid pieces of advice for the next hire.

  • Don't use retention of a future class as a rationale for retaining a coach. Good players and bad coaching is not a recipe for success.
  • Don't worry about someone using Cal as a stepping stone to greener pastures. Even one good season is better than the last two.

You mean like Cuonzo's "one good season?" Where did that leave us.
You must really want to get rid of Wyking if you think 18-15 and 21-13 years were bad seasons.
All of Cuonzo's seasons were underachieving seasons, with the personnel he had to work with. I had no expectations for Wyking Jones, after I looked at the personnel he would have. As Mike Montgomery pointed out in today's broadcast, this team is really, really young, and it will take time for them to learn from their mistakes. Getting rid of Wyking may be a decision forced upon the AD by the empty seats, and may not be a good basketball decision for the good of the players and the team.
NVBear78
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smokeyrover said:

SFCityBear said:


Since you like alums for the job, here are a couple of names which I don't think have been mentioned yet: Shantay Legans and Richard Midgely. Legans is currently the head coach at Eastern Washington, and Midgely was a head coach in high school for a couple of years, and is now a scout for the Atlanta Hawks.


There is a Cal alum coaching college basketball who is 19-3 this year. Won 25 games last year.


The guy at SFCC?
Yogi Bear
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SFCityBear said:


Getting rid of Wyking may be a decision forced upon the AD by the empty seats, and may not be a good basketball decision for the good of the players and the team.
Yogi Bear
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NVBear78 said:

smokeyrover said:

SFCityBear said:


Since you like alums for the job, here are a couple of names which I don't think have been mentioned yet: Shantay Legans and Richard Midgely. Legans is currently the head coach at Eastern Washington, and Midgely was a head coach in high school for a couple of years, and is now a scout for the Atlanta Hawks.


There is a Cal alum coaching college basketball who is 19-3 this year. Won 25 games last year.


The guy at SFCC?
23-1
smokeyrover
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Alex Pribble

https://smusaints.com/coaches.aspx?rc=490
bearister
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Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:

BeachedBear said:

Since Knowlton relies on BI for his decision making, I'll offer up two solid pieces of advice for the next hire.

  • Don't use retention of a future class as a rationale for retaining a coach. Good players and bad coaching is not a recipe for success.
  • Don't worry about someone using Cal as a stepping stone to greener pastures. Even one good season is better than the last two.

You mean like Cuonzo's "one good season?" Where did that leave us.
You must really want to get rid of Wyking if you think 18-15 and 21-13 years were bad seasons.


At least knowledgeable people like Don McLean, Monty, and SFCB make colorable arguments that the youth and inexperience of the Bears and the "on the job training" for our inexperienced coach explain our current predicament. In Cuonzo's case, he had no place to hide. He had highly skilled players but was absolutely clueless what to do with them. It was one of those rare situations where I honestly think the players were responsible for the wins but due to the nature of the losses they were mostly squarely on him. He made me angry and he will leave a trail of broken hearts and unexpired contract payouts wherever he goes. Cuonzo with this team would not even be covering the spreads and I would not be flush with Guinness 8 packs.
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joe amos yaks
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Do you think these two llama guys would walk-on for football . . . WR / RB?
UrsaMajor
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Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.
In my view, if you interview someone who says his goal is eventually to be somewhere else, it's a recipe for turmoil. In fact, Mariucci left after ONE year and left Cal in the lurch. The benefit of having him was a 6-6 season and 4 years of Holmoe.

Yogi: what I don't understand is why you insist on being snarky or downright nasty to anyone you disagree with. I can understand you position that a good coach for a short term is worth the risk of his leaving abruptly. On balance, I disagree, but I believe I can disagree without insults.
Yogi Bear
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smokeyrover said:

Alex Pribble

https://smusaints.com/coaches.aspx?rc=490
I hope this was tongue in cheek. You never know with this board.
Yogi Bear
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UrsaMajor said:

Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.
In my view, if you interview someone who says his goal is eventually to be somewhere else, it's a recipe for turmoil. In fact, Mariucci left after ONE year and left Cal in the lurch. The benefit of having him was a 6-6 season and 4 years of Holmoe.

Yogi: what I don't understand is why you insist on being snarky or downright nasty to anyone you disagree with. I can understand you position that a good coach for a short term is worth the risk of his leaving abruptly. On balance, I disagree, but I believe I can disagree without insults.
What part of the above is nasty? It is 100% your view.
SFCityBear
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Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:

Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.
In my view, if you interview someone who says his goal is eventually to be somewhere else, it's a recipe for turmoil. In fact, Mariucci left after ONE year and left Cal in the lurch. The benefit of having him was a 6-6 season and 4 years of Holmoe.

Yogi: what I don't understand is why you insist on being snarky or downright nasty to anyone you disagree with. I can understand you position that a good coach for a short term is worth the risk of his leaving abruptly. On balance, I disagree, but I believe I can disagree without insults.
What part of the above is nasty? It is 100% your view.
What is nasty about it is that you are making personal comments, insulting comments, to UrsaMajor, and literally telling him what his view is, reading his mind. I read what he wrote, and he did not write what you described. The difference between you and UrsaMajor here is he is talking about the Cal coaching situation, and you are talking about UrsaMajor.
LOUMFSG2
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I mentioned this in another post, but one guy I am interested in following is Matt McMahon at Murray State. I've read some good things about him, last year he led Murray State to the NCAA's and a 26-6 record. They currently sit at 19-4 overall, 10-2 and tied for 1st place in the Ohio Valley Conference with Belmont.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have any west coast ties, so I'm not sure how good of a fit he would be here, but I'm gonna predict he becomes a hot name at the end of the year when some higher profile jobs become available.
Yogi Bear
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LOUMFSG2 said:

I mentioned this in another post, but one guy I am interested in following is Matt McMahon at Murray State. I've read some good things about him, last year he led Murray State to the NCAA's and a 26-6 record. They currently sit at 19-4 overall, 10-2 and tied for 1st place in the Ohio Valley Conference with Belmont.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have any west coast ties, so I'm not sure how good of a fit he would be here, but I'm gonna predict he becomes a hot name at the end of the year when some higher profile jobs become available.
If we confine ourselves to only programs with west coast ties, we're severely cuttting down the number of candidates we might consider. It didn't seem to hurt Arizona much to go with a guy from Xavier (though that of course opens up a whole other can of worms) or Washington to go with a guy from Syracuse. Let's just focus on getting the best guy we're willing to afford and hope that he is a good enough recruiter in general that he will ultimately develop those ties.
TheSouseFamily
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LOUMFSG2 said:

I mentioned this in another post, but one guy I am interested in following is Matt McMahon at Murray State. I've read some good things about him, last year he led Murray State to the NCAA's and a 26-6 record. They currently sit at 19-4 overall, 10-2 and tied for 1st place in the Ohio Valley Conference with Belmont.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have any west coast ties, so I'm not sure how good of a fit he would be here, but I'm gonna predict he becomes a hot name at the end of the year when some higher profile jobs become available.


West Coast ties are over-rated. None of Sean Miller, Dana Altman, Larry K or Mike Hopkins had west coast ties, for example (though Hopkins did grow up in CA, he's been on the east coast for decades since). Having some staff members connected to west coast AAU and HS basketball is useful but for the top guy, just hire the best candidate.
Big C
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TheSouseFamily said:

LOUMFSG2 said:

I mentioned this in another post, but one guy I am interested in following is Matt McMahon at Murray State. I've read some good things about him, last year he led Murray State to the NCAA's and a 26-6 record. They currently sit at 19-4 overall, 10-2 and tied for 1st place in the Ohio Valley Conference with Belmont.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have any west coast ties, so I'm not sure how good of a fit he would be here, but I'm gonna predict he becomes a hot name at the end of the year when some higher profile jobs become available.


West Coast ties are over-rated. None of Sean Miller, Dana Altman, Larry K or Mike Hopkins had west coast ties, for example (though Hopkins did grow up in CA, he's been on the east coast for decades since). Having some staff members connected to west coast AAU and HS basketball is useful but for the top guy, just hire the best candidate.
The next HC could be from Timbuktu and, if he retained David Grace, he'd have some pretty good West Coast ties.
TheSouseFamily
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That's basically what Andy Enfield did, another guy with no West coast ties. He hired Jason Hart and Tony Bland to shore up those connections. TBD though whether Bland's connnections are useful in prison.
bearister
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TheSouseFamily said:

That's basically what Andy Enfield did, another guy with no West coast ties. He hired Jason Hart and Tony Bland to shore up those connections. TBD though whether Bland's connnections are useful in prison.


"It's good to be King."

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oskidunker
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+1
smokeyrover
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TheSouseFamily said:

LOUMFSG2 said:

I mentioned this in another post, but one guy I am interested in following is Matt McMahon at Murray State. I've read some good things about him, last year he led Murray State to the NCAA's and a 26-6 record. They currently sit at 19-4 overall, 10-2 and tied for 1st place in the Ohio Valley Conference with Belmont.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have any west coast ties, so I'm not sure how good of a fit he would be here, but I'm gonna predict he becomes a hot name at the end of the year when some higher profile jobs become available.


West Coast ties are over-rated. None of Sean Miller, Dana Altman, Larry K or Mike Hopkins had west coast ties, for example (though Hopkins did grow up in CA, he's been on the east coast for decades since). Having some staff members connected to west coast AAU and HS basketball is useful but for the top guy, just hire the best candidate.
Agree, no prior connections out here are necessary, but a candidate's comfort level with the Bay Area and California culture, housing prices, and politics are all crucial to aligning a good fit. Cal likely isn't paying enough to override any misgivings the coach has about being here or desire to be somewhere else.

That is where previous familiarity/comfort with the region makes some candidates more intriguing then others. Kyle Smith vs. Tod Kowalczyk. Not to rule out Kowalczyk, maybe like Braun he falls in love with Cal and the Bay Area. But Knowlton really has to do some digging there. I'm sure Cuonzo said all the right things to the search firm intermediaries, but his motivation for taking the Cal job was more to find a major conference escape hatch from Tennessee. It wasn't about wanting to be at Cal.
calumnus
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SFCityBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

UrsaMajor said:


For me, that would have disqualified Mooch, because he obviously saw Cal as a stepping stone to the NFL (of course, no one expected him to bolt after 1 year).
And that's why I'm glad you're not in charge. It would be good to have a high enough quality coach that could win a Super Bowl, but you're all wrapped up in wanting to keep the coach and not enough in getting a GOOD coach.


News Bulletin: Mariucci was an average or mediocre college coach and an average or mediocre NFL coach. a .500 coach at both levels. He was 6-6 at Cal, finished 5th in the PAC10, and lost in the Aloha Bowl. He was 72-67 in the NFL in 9 seasons, and made the playoffs 4 times, losing in the NFC Championship game, losing twice in the divisional playoff, and losing once in a wild card game. Maybe he "could win a Super Bowl", but he didn't, because none of his teams were good enough to even get to the Super Bowl. He was not a "GOOD" coach.

It is quite an accomplishment to get some teams to play .500 ball in the NFL, but he did not go beyond that, which is what I assume is what you want. Do you really want to settle for a .500 coach, who likely will never win the big one? Just because Mariucci said that was his goal does not mean he would ever get there. And in order to get there, he would have to leave Cal, which is not what I'd want a job applicant to be saying, setting me up to accept the fact that he will be leaving, sooner or later.

UrsaMajor was exactly right in his assessment of Mariucci, and if Mariucci actually said that, then I'd disqualify him too. I can't think of a similar situation in basketball, but let's say a candidate for the current Cal job says his goal is to win the NBA Championship one day (instead of saying his goal is to coach Cal to a win in the NCAA Final game) Do you hire him, or not?




I personally think Mooch would have been a great college coach. His enthusiasm was perfect for the college game, he was already proving to be a great recruiter. He had a good mind for offense. His big mistake was taking Bill Walsh's advice and hiring Tom Holmoe as his DC, which resulted in his great offense being saddled with the worst defense in college football. Then, when the Niners crazily offered Mooch the number one job in his profession just before signing day, Cal promoted Holmoe in an effort to keep Mooch's highly rated class on board. The result was an unmitigated disaster to which we later gave an extension.
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