"Rebuilding a program is never easy" Wyking Jones

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socaliganbear
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The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
Cal88
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Going .139 in two seasons is not easy either, it takes a special kind of effort to post that kind of record. Jones is not cut out to coach a major NCAAB program.
wifeisafurd
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Sorta Tom Holmoe like. A guy people liked personally, but not cut out to be a head coach of a D1 program (or too early). Hopefully, Jones lands on his feet like Holmoe.
calumnus
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wifeisafurd said:

Sorta Tom Holmoe like. A guy people liked personally, but not cut out to be a head coach of a D1 program (or too early). Hopefully, Jones lands on his feet like Holmoe.


Yeah, but the guy got paid $5 million. No need to feel too sorry for him.
tsubamoto2001
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The first season was somewhat forgivable. It was his 1st year as the top guy. But this season should have been more of like a 13 or 14 win season. Had things not gone right the last 3 games, we were looking at 5 wins. Not to mention those embarrassing blowouts to low major schools in the non-conference. That can't happen.

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
BEAR2dBONE
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As of today, USF (heavy tradition program) big time on the rise, is looking for a HC .
Go DONS Go. Could be a boon for everybody in the Bay Area.
Wyking is a stand up guy, class rep for a program that is well run. Lets hope !

bear2034
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Consecutive last place conference finishes isn't easy either.
bearister
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calumnus said:

wifeisafurd said:

Sorta Tom Holmoe like. A guy people liked personally, but not cut out to be a head coach of a D1 program (or too early). Hopefully, Jones lands on his feet like Holmoe.


Yeah, but the guy got paid $5 million. No need to feel too sorry for him.


My wife and I were having dinner a few years back on our wedding anniversary in Walnut Creek. Our table was by a widow looking out on the street. We saw Jeff Tedford getting out of his car with his wife. I have never seen two people with bigger smiles on their faces in my life. I later found that it was within a few days of when he reached the $5.55 million settlement buyout of the remaining term on his Cal contract. No, I don't feel sorry for Wyking. It takes a long time for us common folk to earn $3 million.
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bearister
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BEAR2dBONE said:

As of today, USF (heavy tradition program) big time on the rise, is looking for a HC .
Go DONS Go. Could be a boon for everybody in the Bay Area.
Wyking is a stand up guy, class rep for a program that is well run. Lets hope !




Well, Kyle will do well there and he got himself a crackerjack of a player in CJ Elleby.
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Genocide Joe 58
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bearister said:


Our table was by a widow looking out on the street.
Did you try to hit on her? Some nice cougar action from the sound of it.
bearister
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Yogi Bear said:

bearister said:


Our table was by a widow looking out on the street.
Did you try to hit on her? Some nice cougar action from the sound of it.

If I was that kind of guy It would have been the opposite, aka "robbing the cradle."
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SFCityBear
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socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.
SFCityBear
bearister
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...but Cuonzo did Wyking a Major Solid: He created the set of circumstances that got him $5 million for two years of work. If I was Wyking I would send Cuonzo a case of DP and 4 cases of Fiji water on Cuonzo's birthday every year for the rest of his life.

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socaltownie
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SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.
OK.....

But Jones was on the staff!!! And what we know is that there were kids that Martin wanted (and apparently would have signed) but which failed to get past admissions. Whether that was because of the new rules or the old I am not privy to. Jones can not be absolved of that and the failure of the staff to find kids who COULD qualify and contribute.

Look. He had a VERY bad hand. We are AWFULLY young. But Jones was unable (perhaps anyone would have been but it rests on him) to hold the Baker class together when a Big part of the reason Williams gave at the presser was "continuity". If you are going to claim any part of the credit for the Martin years you have to take the good with the bad.
TheSouseFamily
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bearister said:

...but Cuonzo did Wyking a Major Solid: He created the set of circumstance that got him $5 million for two years of work. If I was Wyking I would send Cuonzo a case of DP and 4 cases of Fiji water on Cuonzo's birthday every year for the rest of his life.




Bearister - I will never EVER tire of hearing a Cuonzo bottled water joke. In fact, the only remaining mental visual I have from that game is the one of Cuonzo chugging down the H2O like a spring breaker would chug down beer. It cracked me up during the game, still does and likely always will.
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.
OK.....

But Jones was on the staff!!! And what we know is that there were kids that Martin wanted (and apparently would have signed) but which failed to get past admissions. Whether that was because of the new rules or the old I am not privy to. Jones can not be absolved of that and the failure of the staff to find kids who COULD qualify and contribute.

Look. He had a VERY bad hand. We are AWFULLY young. But Jones was unable (perhaps anyone would have been but it rests on him) to hold the Baker class together when a Big part of the reason Williams gave at the presser was "continuity". If you are going to claim any part of the credit for the Martin years you have to take the good with the bad.
Despite the bitter taste at how he left, I think Cuonzo is a decent guy. I don't think he did anything intentionally. And it doesn't make sense that he would as it would only look bad for him. That said, he tanked the program. I think that was the result in personnel mismanagement AND a lot of bad luck. But it was the result.

It's his job to know what his situation is with admissions. The bottom line is he mostly sucked as a recruiter outside of two very big signings. That left him with significant roster shortages and imbalance. So a couple of losses cratered the roster. Jones had extremely little to work with. Moore was leaving regardless. Probably Rooks also. If Cuonzo stayed we probably keep Baker because he would have had no excuse to get out of his LOI. But no doubt he wanted to go now that he had better options and was going to leave no matter who we hired. I don't think you can blame Jones for any of the losses. If anything, Jones did a fairly decent job of bolstering the crap roster he was given.

I really don't see that Jones being an assistant on staff makes him responsible for what Cuonzo did. That is a hard argument to make.

That is not saying the hire made sense or that he did a good job. If Williams hired him to keep the team and recruiting class together that was moronic as I think many knew the losses were going to occur regardless. (Seriously, Cal never could have kept Baker if UK was recruiting him and he had an out).

What I have said and continue to say is that Jones inherited a program in dire straits. He didn't put it there. That is not to defend his job or the hire. It is to say that we need to realize AS A PROGRAM we had gotten to that point. It was not due to one bad hire and one bad coach.

I will say this about Jones. I think he left the program better than he found it. (pending finalization of roster losses this off season). Of course that was not hard to do. He did a reasonably okay job of filling the roster and that roster is a lot better than the one he inherited. Definitely another coach might have done a better job filling that roster. As a coach, he was horribly in over his head. In terms of results he probably took a horrible situation and made it worse than horrible. It was very clear it was not going to work.

I don't feel bad for Jones. He lucked into $5M he was never, ever, ever, ever going to get from anyone else. He can now go back to being an assistant with that money in his pocket. He did a few good things. He did a lot of bad things. And we move on. But Jones was like putting manure on a pig. It was always a pig, he just made it smell a little worse.

Civil Bear
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SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
SFCityBear
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socaltownie said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.
OK.....

But Jones was on the staff!!! And what we know is that there were kids that Martin wanted (and apparently would have signed) but which failed to get past admissions. Whether that was because of the new rules or the old I am not privy to. Jones can not be absolved of that and the failure of the staff to find kids who COULD qualify and contribute.

Look. He had a VERY bad hand. We are AWFULLY young. But Jones was unable (perhaps anyone would have been but it rests on him) to hold the Baker class together when a Big part of the reason Williams gave at the presser was "continuity". If you are going to claim any part of the credit for the Martin years you have to take the good with the bad.
Jones was on the staff. So what? Are you saying that Jones was in charge of all Cuonzo's recruiting, so he is in charge of selecting all the recruiting targets, planning how to target them, and assigning assistants to these targets? I'm just guessing, but I'd say that Cuonzo was in charge of recruiting, not Jones. I'm sure they met as a staff and discussed who to recruit, and how to do it, but in the end, it had to be Cuonzo who decided who to target, and who would be the lead recruiter for each target. Because in the end, it is the head coach who is responsible for the recruits and their quality. Montgomery before Cuonzo was held totally responsible for his recruiting and BI fans held him accountable for every miss, and gave him little credit for his hits. None of Monty's assistants was ever criticized on the BI for signing or not signing a recruit. It should be the same for Cuonzo, but in the BI, I guess not.

If assistants are targeting or recruiting kids who can't gain admission, then that is on Counzo, because he is in charge. Have you heard anyone criticize Grace or other assistants for Jones' not highly rated recruiting classes? No. It is Wyking's fault and responsibility if Cal did not get highly rated classes under him. So it has to be Cuonzo's responsibility during his time, not Wyking's, not Hufnagel's, not anyone but Cuonzo.

I think Jones did pretty well holding the "Baker class" together, losing only Mr. Baker. Martin quit on March 15, and Baker decommitted on March 27. So Jones had 2 weeks to convince Baker to stay, while at the same time trying to convince the rest of the class to stay. Howcum you don't blame whatever assistant was assigned to Baker for losing him? Because Baker is Wyking's responsibility, as you rightly stated. You can not blame or credit an assistant for a recruit in one instance and blame or credit the head coach in another instance.

If Jones had held on to Baker, it would have made no difference to Cal's results so far. Baker missed his entire 2018 season with a knee injury. In 2019 he is 10th man on an 11 man roster at Kentucky. He averaged 9 minutes and 2 points per game. You fail to mention that Wyking Jones got Darius McNeill to decommit from Iowa State and sign with Cal to take Baker's place. I think it would be more proper to call Cal's 2017 recruiting class the "McNeill Class," or the "Sueing Class" as they both did a lot more for Cal's teams than Baker has done for Kentucky so far. I think maybe you are just throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks, in one more attempt to trash Wyking Jones. He failed at Cal. He had little to start with, but he did nothing with it. He should have won 10-15 games in the first year at least. He's been fired. We all need to get over this now. Put on your toughest boots, and kick him out the door and down the road, and then lets get over it and get on with what Cal does next..
SFCityBear
KenBurnski
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Howcum indeed
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

...but Cuonzo did Wyking a Major Solid: He created the set of circumstance that got him $5 million for two years of work. If I was Wyking I would send Cuonzo a case of DP and 4 cases of Fiji water on Cuonzo's birthday every year for the rest of his life.


I wish someone would do me a major solid, Jimmy Rainwood. I need a major infusion of cash. I just don't have the ability or the stomach to coach basketball. Office politics is everywhere, even in basketball.
SFCityBear
GoCalBears
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SFCityBear said:

socaltownie said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.
OK.....

But Jones was on the staff!!! And what we know is that there were kids that Martin wanted (and apparently would have signed) but which failed to get past admissions. Whether that was because of the new rules or the old I am not privy to. Jones can not be absolved of that and the failure of the staff to find kids who COULD qualify and contribute.

Look. He had a VERY bad hand. We are AWFULLY young. But Jones was unable (perhaps anyone would have been but it rests on him) to hold the Baker class together when a Big part of the reason Williams gave at the presser was "continuity". If you are going to claim any part of the credit for the Martin years you have to take the good with the bad.
Jones was on the staff. So what? Are you saying that Jones was in charge of all Cuonzo's recruiting, so he is in charge of selecting all the recruiting targets, planning how to target them, and assigning assistants to these targets? I'm just guessing, but I'd say that Cuonzo was in charge of recruiting, not Jones. I'm sure they met as a staff and discussed who to recruit, and how to do it, but in the end, it had to be Cuonzo who decided who to target, and who would be the lead recruiter for each target. Because in the end, it is the head coach who is responsible for the recruits and their quality. Montgomery before Cuonzo was held totally responsible for his recruiting and BI fans held him accountable for every miss, and gave him little credit for his hits. None of Monty's assistants was ever criticized on the BI for signing or not signing a recruit. It should be the same for Cuonzo, but in the BI, I guess not.

If assistants are targeting or recruiting kids who can't gain admission, then that is on Counzo, because he is in charge. Have you heard anyone criticize Grace or other assistants for Jones' not highly rated recruiting classes? No. It is Wyking's fault and responsibility if Cal did not get highly rated classes under him. So it has to be Cuonzo's responsibility during his time, not Wyking's, not Hufnagel's, not anyone but Cuonzo.

I think Jones did pretty well holding the "Baker class" together, losing only Mr. Baker. Martin quit on March 15, and Baker decommitted on March 27. So Jones had 2 weeks to convince Baker to stay, while at the same time trying to convince the rest of the class to stay. Howcum you don't blame whatever assistant was assigned to Baker for losing him? Because Baker is Wyking's responsibility, as you rightly stated. You can not blame or credit an assistant for a recruit in one instance and blame or credit the head coach in another instance.

If Jones had held on to Baker, it would have made no difference to Cal's results so far. Baker missed his entire 2018 season with a knee injury. In 2019 he is 10th man on an 11 man roster at Kentucky. He averaged 9 minutes and 2 points per game. You fail to mention that Wyking Jones got Darius McNeill to decommit from Iowa State and sign with Cal to take Baker's place. I think it would be more proper to call Cal's 2017 recruiting class the "McNeill Class," or the "Sueing Class" as they both did a lot more for Cal's teams than Baker has done for Kentucky so far. I think maybe you are just throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks, in one more attempt to trash Wyking Jones. He failed at Cal. He had little to start with, but he did nothing with it. He should have won 10-15 games in the first year at least. He's been fired. We all need to get over this now. Put on your toughest boots, and kick him out the door and down the road, and then lets get over it and get on with what Cal does next..

Didn't Jones miss out on Jordan Bown? According to BI, Bown was certain to come to Cal and Jones couldn't get him to sign.
Civil Bear
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GoCalBears said:


Didn't Jones miss out on Jordan Bown? According to BI, Bown was certain to come to Cal and Jones couldn't get him to sign.


Jones missed with Brown because it was supposed to be a package deal with the MGT. Jones couldn't free up the extra scholley, so it was a no go.
GoCalBears
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Civil Bear said:

GoCalBears said:


Didn't Jones miss out on Jordan Bown? According to BI, Bown was certain to come to Cal and Jones couldn't get him to sign.


Jones missed with Brown because it was supposed to be a package deal with the MGT. Jones couldn't free up the extra scholley, so it was a no go.
MGT?
Civil Bear
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Mystery Grad Transfer James Thompson IV. Brown didn't want to end up playing center.
SFCityBear
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Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
Sorry you couldn't. That is my fault. I described Cuozo's first year, and described what Cuonzo's first recruits, Okoroh, Chauca and transfer Tarwater had done, IN THAT FIRST YEAR, which was not much. In the same paragraph, I mentioned that at the end of that first year, Kravish would graduate, but he would be replaced in the roster by Rooks in that second year of Cuonzo, and Rooks was another player passed on to Cuonzo by Montgomery. When I said Rooks was a good player, it was what I would have described him as at that time, right before Cuonzo's second season began. An improved KO started 17 games and Rooks 10 that year, but Rooks played almost twice the minutes as KO, so I think Rooks was still the better player at that point. Not a lot to choose between them. I imagine Cuonzo was happy to have Rooks. I was not comparing the two players but we can do that:

Here are KO's per game stats in year 2015: 2pts, 2rebs, 1blk

2016:

KO: 2 pts, 2 rebs, 1 blk
Rooks: 4 pts, 5rebs, 1 blk

Cal career:
KO: 3.5pts, 4rebs, 2blks, 0.463FG%
Rooks: 5pts, 5rebs, 1blk, 0.541FG%

SFCityBear
bearister
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TheSouseFamily said:

bearister said:

...but Cuonzo did Wyking a Major Solid: He created the set of circumstance that got him $5 million for two years of work. If I was Wyking I would send Cuonzo a case of DP and 4 cases of Fiji water on Cuonzo's birthday every year for the rest of his life.




Bearister - I will never EVER tire of hearing a Cuonzo bottled water joke. In fact, the only remaining mental visual I have from that game is the one of Cuonzo chugging down the H2O like a spring breaker would chug down beer. It cracked me up during the game, still does and likely always will.

During that NIT tank job to Bakersfield I wanted to storm the court and waterboard him.

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stu
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OaktownBear said:

I will say this about Jones. I think he left the program better than he found it.
I agree. Decent enough not to scare off good applicants for the coaching position.
BearlyCareAnymore
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SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
Sorry you couldn't. That is my fault. I described Cuozo's first year, and described what Cuonzo's first recruits, Okoroh, Chauca and transfer Tarwater had done, IN THAT FIRST YEAR, which was not much. In the same paragraph, I mentioned that at the end of that first year, Kravish would graduate, but he would be replaced in the roster by Rooks in that second year of Cuonzo, and Rooks was another player passed on to Cuonzo by Montgomery. When I said Rooks was a good player, it was what I would have described him as at that time, right before Cuonzo's second season began. An improved KO started 17 games and Rooks 10 that year, but Rooks played almost twice the minutes as KO, so I think Rooks was still the better player at that point. Not a lot to choose between them. I imagine Cuonzo was happy to have Rooks. I was not comparing the two players but we can do that:

Here are KO's per game stats in year 2015: 2pts, 2rebs, 1blk

2016:

KO: 2 pts, 2 rebs, 1 blk
Rooks: 4 pts, 5rebs, 1 blk

Cal career:
KO: 3.5pts, 4rebs, 2blks, 0.463FG%
Rooks: 5pts, 5rebs, 1blk, 0.541FG%


SF - I agreed with a lot of your post and pretty much agreed with the overall points you were making as you could tell from my later post, but saying that Monty left Cuonzo with "SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS" (and putting it in all caps) was an oversell. Calling Sam Singer a very good player was an oversell and there is no way that you could put Rooks in that category. I would definitely say that Monty left a solid core with 4 good players, a decent player and a serviceable player with size to start a rotation. And no question Monty left Cuonzo a lot more than Cuonzo left Wyking.
Cal8285
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Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
You got farther than me, I didn't make it past "this is a lot of hooey."
SFCityBear
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Civil Bear said:

Mystery Grad Transfer James Thompson IV. Brown didn't want to end up playing center.
Thank you. I had no clue what the MGT was, so I couldn't answer the question.
SFCityBear
Genocide Joe 58
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SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

Mystery Grad Transfer James Thompson IV. Brown didn't want to end up playing center.
Thank you. I had no clue what the MGT was, so I couldn't answer the question.
The one good thing about Jordan Brown is that it motivated us to get Vanover, who I predict will be a better player than Brown.
SFCityBear
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OaktownBear said:

SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
Sorry you couldn't. That is my fault. I described Cuozo's first year, and described what Cuonzo's first recruits, Okoroh, Chauca and transfer Tarwater had done, IN THAT FIRST YEAR, which was not much. In the same paragraph, I mentioned that at the end of that first year, Kravish would graduate, but he would be replaced in the roster by Rooks in that second year of Cuonzo, and Rooks was another player passed on to Cuonzo by Montgomery. When I said Rooks was a good player, it was what I would have described him as at that time, right before Cuonzo's second season began. An improved KO started 17 games and Rooks 10 that year, but Rooks played almost twice the minutes as KO, so I think Rooks was still the better player at that point. Not a lot to choose between them. I imagine Cuonzo was happy to have Rooks. I was not comparing the two players but we can do that:

Here are KO's per game stats in year 2015: 2pts, 2rebs, 1blk

2016:

KO: 2 pts, 2 rebs, 1 blk
Rooks: 4 pts, 5rebs, 1 blk

Cal career:
KO: 3.5pts, 4rebs, 2blks, 0.463FG%
Rooks: 5pts, 5rebs, 1blk, 0.541FG%


SF - I agreed with a lot of your post and pretty much agreed with the overall points you were making as you could tell from my later post, but saying that Monty left Cuonzo with "SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS" (and putting it in all caps) was an oversell. Calling Sam Singer a very good player was an oversell and there is no way that you could put Rooks in that category. I would definitely say that Monty left a solid core with 4 good players, a decent player and a serviceable player with size to start a rotation. And no question Monty left Cuonzo a lot more than Cuonzo left Wyking.
I guess it all depends on what you and I mean by "very good player". I meant that they were very good players to start a team with. Singer had his deficiencies as we know, mostly shooting the ball. After a short time, he became the best perimeter defender that Cuonzo had, IMO, and that probably began with Monty teaching him some fundamentals. He was a solid player for Cal on 4 winning teams, and in his first year with Cuonzo, he logged the 5th most minutes on the floor. In the following two years, he was the team's 6th man in terms of minutes played. You could trust him to take care of the ball, and run offense. Who would your rather have as a player to start your first team at Cal with, Monty's recruit, Singer, or Cuonzo's recruit, Coleman? Sam was not a player you build a team around, but a good role player off the bench.

I can understand your point about Rooks. However, he was a solid player, not a total stiff, and a little better than Okoroh when each of them arrived on Cuonzo's roster. He was another player you don't build a team around, but a steady player off the bench. Neither Rooks nor Okoroh was a very good player, but both improved each year over their first 3 years at Cal. He did help Cuonzo by being available to start playing in Cuonzo's 2nd year after Kravish had graduated. He was the 7th man in Cuonzo's rotation in terms of minutes in both 2016 and 2017.

Maybe that is what I meant by very good player. High up in the rotation in minutes played for some good 20-win teams, and both Singer and Rooks became those kind of players.
SFCityBear
socaltownie
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SFCityBear said:

OaktownBear said:

SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

socaliganbear said:

The thing that stands out to me about Wyking's statement is how royally CAL (not Wyking) effed the program. Everyone from the Chancellor, Mike Williams, down to the associate ADs that oversee it, dropped the ball to say the least. "Rebuilding a program is never easy".

The three years prior to Wyking's tenure, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games respectively. What happened immediately after shouldn't have happened. We were not placed on sanctions. We did not have a massive recruiting or academic scandal looming over us. We were not rotting at the core. We had underperformed, sure, but we were a very solid program. This shouldn't have been a complete and total tear down. With where we are now, you'd think we're recovering from USC or Ole Miss like NCAA scandals.

Believe it or not, I've moved on. But man... the people in charge of the program, and by extension, our brand, really effed us.
With all due respect, this is a lot of hooey. We were not a "very solid program" at all before Wyking took over. Cuonzo Martin had wrecked the Cal program, and he got out in the nick of time, so he would not be blamed for where it was headed. Yes, Cal won 18, 23, and 21 games under him. But look at what he started with: SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS all turned over to him by Mike Montgomery. Jabari Bird, Tyrone Wallace, Jordan Mathews, David Kravish, Rooks, and Sam Singer. Martin brought in two recruits, Okoroh and Chauca, plus transfer Tarwater. Okoroh contributed very little at all, Tarwater slightly more, and Chauca contributed NOTHING. That team was successful entirely due to Montgomery's recruiting. And the bonus was that only one of those players, Kravish, would graduate, but he would be replaced by another good player, Kameron Rooks, also a Montgomery recruit returning from missing a season with injury. So for his second year, Martin had a very good nucleus to work with.

Martin turned over no such roster and program to Wyking Jones. Martin's next recruits were fabulously highly ranked, Rabb and Brown, enabling to him to add them to Montgomery's nucleus, and the team was even better. Tarwater graduated, so Martin signed a transfer who was a very highly rated recruit in Stephen Domingo, who played two seasons, and was nearly a complete bust. He also signed Roman Davis, who redshirted, but became a three year bust. The team struggled, and underperformed in the early season, and put things together at the end but injuries to two of Cal's lesser stars, Bird and Wallace, doomed the team to a first round loss in the NCAA. The team still had five good players, including Rabb and Brown, and should have been able to beat Hawaii easily, but failed.

That was the start of things beginning to unravel for Martin and the Cal program. Brown left for the NBA as expected. Tyrone Wallace graduated, and Jordan Mathews and Martin did not see eye to eye, I believe, and Mathews transferred to Gonzaga. Rabb decided to stay on for another season. Martin did sign a good recruit in Charlie Moore, a very erratic unranked Don Coleman, and a good grad transfer in Grant Mullins, along with transfer Marcus Lee for the future. The team did alright. However, Martin had run out of tricks. He had failed more than any Cal coach on his way out to having planned his roster to have a mix of underclassmen and upperclassmen for the future. Bird, Singer, Mullins, Domingo, and RMB would all graduate at the same time. His recruiting, except for the big stars, Rabb and Brown, plus Moore, was abysmal. He would have had Okoroh, Rooks, Lee, Moore, Coleman and Davis coming back. But Moore's father already was ill, and Moore transferred. Rooks transferred to be with his family after the death of his father. No one knows if they would have stayed for Cuonzo, but even if they had, the team would have struggled to play .500, IMO. Maybe Baker would have stayed, but he has been injured and missed a lot of games in Kentucky, so maybe he would have been injured at Cal as well.

I want to give Martin the benefit of the doubt, and just say he did not plan his recruiting well for the future, or too many of his recruits did not deliver, but the cynic in me thinks he might have planned his exit all along. He started with Montgomery's best recruiting class ever, 6 good players, and rode that for a year, until he could sign Brown and Rabb, thus solidifying his rep as a master recruiter. I think if Rabb had left as expected, Cuonzo's 2016-17 team would not have won 20 games. Not even close. Martin over three years brought in 3 good recruits, Rabb, Brown, and Moore, and two good transfers, Mullins and Lee. The bad thing about them was only one, Rabb, played longer than one year for Cal.

It was Montgomery who built Cal into a competitive program (with help from the roster left to him by Ben Braun). And it was Cuonzo Martin who broke it down, did a nearly complete teardown. He left Jones with a roster of 4 players, including Davis, who is not much of a player yet. Coleman would be a major challenge under any coach. Two were seniors. Martin left the next coach only Davis for his second season. Contrast that with the roster that Ben Braun left for Montgomery: Juniors Randle, Christopher, Theo, Boykin, Soph Kamp, Frosh Amok, Seeley, and Max Zhang. Two seasons later, Cal wins the PAC10 title with these players. Compared with that, Martin didn't leave himself or Wyking much of anything for 2017 and 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't get past Rooks was very good but Okoroh contributed very little. Kudos to those of you that could.
Sorry you couldn't. That is my fault. I described Cuozo's first year, and described what Cuonzo's first recruits, Okoroh, Chauca and transfer Tarwater had done, IN THAT FIRST YEAR, which was not much. In the same paragraph, I mentioned that at the end of that first year, Kravish would graduate, but he would be replaced in the roster by Rooks in that second year of Cuonzo, and Rooks was another player passed on to Cuonzo by Montgomery. When I said Rooks was a good player, it was what I would have described him as at that time, right before Cuonzo's second season began. An improved KO started 17 games and Rooks 10 that year, but Rooks played almost twice the minutes as KO, so I think Rooks was still the better player at that point. Not a lot to choose between them. I imagine Cuonzo was happy to have Rooks. I was not comparing the two players but we can do that:

Here are KO's per game stats in year 2015: 2pts, 2rebs, 1blk

2016:

KO: 2 pts, 2 rebs, 1 blk
Rooks: 4 pts, 5rebs, 1 blk

Cal career:
KO: 3.5pts, 4rebs, 2blks, 0.463FG%
Rooks: 5pts, 5rebs, 1blk, 0.541FG%


SF - I agreed with a lot of your post and pretty much agreed with the overall points you were making as you could tell from my later post, but saying that Monty left Cuonzo with "SIX VERY GOOD PLAYERS" (and putting it in all caps) was an oversell. Calling Sam Singer a very good player was an oversell and there is no way that you could put Rooks in that category. I would definitely say that Monty left a solid core with 4 good players, a decent player and a serviceable player with size to start a rotation. And no question Monty left Cuonzo a lot more than Cuonzo left Wyking.
I guess it all depends on what you and I mean by "very good player". I meant that they were very good players to start a team with. Singer had his deficiencies as we know, mostly shooting the ball. After a short time, he became the best perimeter defender that Cuonzo had, IMO, and that probably began with Monty teaching him some fundamentals. He was a solid player for Cal on 4 winning teams, and in his first year with Cuonzo, he logged the 5th most minutes on the floor. In the following two years, he was the team's 6th man in terms of minutes played. You could trust him to take care of the ball, and run offense. Who would your rather have as a player to start your first team at Cal with, Monty's recruit, Singer, or Cuonzo's recruit, Coleman? Sam was not a player you build a team around, but a good role player off the bench.

I can understand your point about Rooks. However, he was a solid player, not a total stiff, and a little better than Okoroh when each of them arrived on Cuonzo's roster. He was another player you don't build a team around, but a steady player off the bench. Neither Rooks nor Okoroh was a very good player, but both improved each year over their first 3 years at Cal. He did help Cuonzo by being available to start playing in Cuonzo's 2nd year after Kravish had graduated. He was the 7th man in Cuonzo's rotation in terms of minutes in both 2016 and 2017.

Maybe that is what I meant by very good player. High up in the rotation in minutes played for some good 20-win teams, and both Singer and Rooks became those kind of players.
+1. When Sam and Rooks could do what they could do it was good. When they were asked to start against top level Pac-12 talent it was....well....bad for my cardio health.
TheSouseFamily
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Kingsley brought value to the team. It was just entirely on the defensive end. Offensively, he really only contributed on the boards but defensively, it was a different story. By some metrics, he was our best defensive player and that's often overlooked.
Bear19
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Like many egocentric folks, Jones refused to recognize that he just was not capable of leading a P-5 MBB team. That Cal refused to see the obvious truth is another notch in the failed regime belt of Mike Williams. Enough of the obvious.

Knowlton has an opportunity to get the program back on track. No room for error on this critical hire decision.
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