RedlessWardrobe said:

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As a Cal fan, these 2 guys are extremely hard to watch.

Wish there was a way that we could suck some of the energy out of JHD and inject it into Lars. (Kill two birds with one stone)

These guys are extremely hard to watch.

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I'm not a basketball guy, but I did watch the game last night. Lars is a very tentative player and seems genuinely surprised when the ball finds him. Bears' shooting is very poor also. They seemed unprepared to play last night.

Lars is a frosh so got to give him some leeway, espcially coming from Europe and having to adjust to the different style of play. i think he'll be solid next season. just has to work on his hands and sliding his feet on defense

JHD does bring great energy and is a good defender but is a liability on offense and hasn't improved on that end at all. no outside shot, and somehow consistenly misses dunks and lay-ups. looks like he's rushing everything out there

I wouldnt be surprised to see a lineup change.

Yeah - Lars is tall. That is all I am seeing right now. He is NOT a good rim defender, can't really defend the post, ins't a pick and pop guy (which this team DESPERATELY needs at the 4/5 given that Fox is so gung ho on the high pick and roll)

On the offensive end, teams overplay our wings because they KNOW they will not get hurt by a guy who blows by the first defender. Without finishers in the front line the attacker just has to go all the way to the rim. They get swatted cause most other teams DO have a rim defender. The overplay slows us down, makes it hard to get threes and disrupts any flow.

Then on the defensive end it again becomes a problem. Teams will attack the rim. If we don't help they are able to simple get layups by blowing by Lars/going weak side with his lack of mobility/defensive technique. IF we DO help they simply drive and kick out to wide open 3s. It is going to be a LONG season until Fox solves this problem - a deficiency since Rabb left.

And I am not sure Frosh. I hope so. But I am seeing a guy who is pretty slow, has no hops (he couldn't Dunk from a foot out last night) and who lacks much fire.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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As a Cal fan, these 2 guys are extremely hard to watch.

Wish there was a way that we could suck some of the energy out of JHD and inject it into Lars. (Kill two birds with one stone)

These guys are extremely hard to watch.

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" ... suck some of the energy out of JHD and inject it into Lars ... "

Funny and also accurate. Sometimes Harris-Dyson needs to slow down. Lars doesn't have that problem.

socaltownie said:

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Yeah - Lars is tall. That is all I am seeing right now. He is NOT a good rim defender, can't really defend the post, ins't a pick and pop guy (which this team DESPERATELY needs at the 4/5 given that Fox is so gung ho on the high pick and roll)

On the offensive end, teams overplay our wings because they KNOW they will not get hurt by a guy who blows by the first defender. Without finishers in the front line the attacker just has to go all the way to the rim. They get swatted cause most other teams DO have a rim defender. The overplay slows us down, makes it hard to get threes and disrupts any flow.

Then on the defensive end it again becomes a problem. Teams will attack the rim. If we don't help they are able to simple get layups by blowing by Lars/going weak side with his lack of mobility/defensive technique. IF we DO help they simply drive and kick out to wide open 3s. It is going to be a LONG season until Fox solves this problem - a deficiency since Rabb left.

And I am not sure Frosh. I hope so. But I am seeing a guy who is pretty slow, has no hops (he couldn't Dunk from a foot out last night) and who lacks much fire.

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I would never abandon hope on a freshman big. Okay, right now he doesn't contribute much at either end and I don't see that changing much over the next three months (Vanover was an anomaly). The question is, how badly does he want to be here, work his butt off and accept coaching?

I too watched the game. The game for Lars may be a bit too fast for him. I tease he has hands of stone, but as he rolls or posts up, or even if someone is penetrating and dishing off to him. He needs to be ready and assert himself. He is a freshman and has some time to grow, but needs to either learn to catch some bricks, but definitely needs to learn to catch the BB.

JHD played a bit out of control and made mistakes freshman's make. The game unfortunately has not slowed down for him. It's unfortunate that his game has not developed to a finished product. Some of it is he needs to learn to play through mistakes and make his own in game adjustments. It's tough to see him struggle, cause he plays hard and you can see he cares enough to want to do well. Unlike talented kids who don't go all out. It's quite the opposite with JHD. I wish them both well. He really needs to work on a left hand.

Thorpe looks like he needs to get in better shape. He is a big body and is willing to be able to bang. I would prefer Thorpe at the Center spot and Kelly at PF spot. I believe they could clean the glass and learn to work a high low game within the structure of the offense. Fox needs to incorporate this ASAP.

Cal could use Sueing and Vanover. They could have made this a decent team. Going to be a long winter.

Growing paeans or pains.

How does USF recruit better players than Cal?

Thanks. Very clear analysis.

LMK5 said:

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How does USF recruit better players than Cal?

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Don't know if they are better players.

They do have more players who can shoot the 3 for sure.
Cal has one.
In this day and age, everybody has to be able to shoot the three.
Ask Counzo how about his "we play the best defense" strategy and how "tough his teams are" and how that's working out. Good shooting teams beat the strong defensive teams. Just like the Warriors did for a few years. The only good defenders were Klay and Draymond. But everybody could shoot.
Cal needs 3 or 4 more guys who can shoot from range,

Yah it's a bit sad with those two guys as I like them both.

Like people have said in this thread, Lars needs to be more ready to receive the ball on offense and seek to be more forceful on rebounds and loose balls. Some of that will get better with more coaching and experience. I would think he is plenty strong enough overall. And I'm not sure you can teach hands. Some guys just have it, some don't. Exh. 1 Nick Van Derlaan. Now I do think Andre has very good hands. I have to think a front line of Thorpe and Kelly gives us more upside right now.

JHD when we first saw him early in the year looked like he got leaner and more athletic, and maybe he worked on his O more so that he was a different player. Well, he certainly is still athletic, but he seems to have no sense on when to attack the basket, when to pull up (not that he really has any kind of outside shot) and when to pull it back. I think he still can be used in spurts mostly on D and he should be looking for easy offense on run outs and just get confidence finishing through contact.

I believe that we need three guys to score to have a chance to beat anyone decent -- Bradley, South and Anticevich. South certainly did his part last night. Bradley getting 11 and Anticevich 9 ain't gonna cut it. The three of them need to be in the 15s at least and then we need some support on offense from Paris, Kelly and maybe Gordon, on a consistent basis.

Brown also needs to look to attack the basket more and score on runners or finishes at the rim (he had a nice one in the first half, but we need way more of that). Also knock down some mid-range Js if they are waiting for him at the rim.

It's a long road back to respectability. I would think Santa Clara is a more winnable game. We'll see.

Alkiadt said:

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LMK5 said:

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How does USF recruit better players than Cal?

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Don't know if they are better players.

They do have more players who can shoot the 3 for sure.
Cal has one.
In this day and age, everybody has to be able to shoot the three.
Ask Counzo how about his "we play the best defense" strategy and how "tough his teams are" and how that's working out. Good shooting teams beat the strong defensive teams. Just like the Warriors did for a few years. The only good defenders were Klay and Draymond. But everybody could shoot.
Cal needs 3 or 4 more guys who can shoot from range,

---

You may question the defensive capabilities of specific Warrior players of the recent past, but they were generally ranked VERY high on defense as a team, in some cases first in the league. So your comment is a bit puzzling.

Bun Boy, Jimbo Lull, who shredded us last night, didn't set the world on fire as a frosh either.

Jimbo Lull Stats, News, Bio | ESPN


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4066748/jimbo-lull

bearister said:

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Bun Boy, Jimbo Lull, who shredded us last night, didn't set the world on fire as a frosh either.

Jimbo Lull Stats, News, Bio | ESPN


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4066748/jimbo-lull

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Lars positioned himself all night daring Bun Boy have to baseline if he wanted. But Bun Boy refused and kept going left shoulder and Lars let him do it. The doubling down in the first half was effective as Bun Boy kept being forced into bad passes. It was quite a good 10 minute stretch when we came from 16 down to 2.

KoreAmBear said:

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bearister said:

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Bun Boy, Jimbo Lull, who shredded us last night, didn't set the world on fire as a frosh either.

Jimbo Lull Stats, News, Bio | ESPN


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4066748/jimbo-lull

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Lars positioned himself all night daring Bun Boy have to baseline if he wanted. But Bun Boy refused and kept going left shoulder and Lars let him do it. The doubling down in the first half was effective as Bun Boy kept being forced into bad passes. It was quite a good 10 minute stretch when we came from 16 down to 2.

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They adjusted I believe to having 2 guys ready on that side so the double team required either leaving a shooter or leaving a cutter on the weak side which Lars was moving to since I am not sure he CAN dribble with his left hand (we never saw it all night ;-)

Alkiadt said:

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LMK5 said:

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How does USF recruit better players than Cal?

---

Don't know if they are better players.

They do have more players who can shoot the 3 for sure.
Cal has one.
In this day and age, everybody has to be able to shoot the three.
Ask Counzo how about his "we play the best defense" strategy and how "tough his teams are" and how that's working out. Good shooting teams beat the strong defensive teams. Just like the Warriors did for a few years. The only good defenders were Klay and Draymond. But everybody could shoot.
Cal needs 3 or 4 more guys who can shoot from range,

---

You seem to forget that those Warriors teams played great defense.

Yeah, we need shooters but you don't win without defense either and our defense was abysmal last night.

LMK5 said:

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How does USF recruit better players than Cal?

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More specifically, how do mid-majors in general have no problem finding 3 point shooting guards and wings and power conference teams like Cal end up with guards who cannot shoot that shot? Either they're overprioritizing other things like length and leaping ability or they just can't scout for *****

Blows my mind every year watching college basketball.

Alkiadt said:

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Just like the Warriors did for a few years. The only good defenders were Klay and Draymond. But everybody could shoot.
Cal needs 3 or 4 more guys who can shoot from range,

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You obviously either don't watch much NBA basketball or don't watch much of the Warriors if you think those were the only two guys who could defend.

Pigskin Pete said:

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Alkiadt said:

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Just like the Warriors did for a few years. The only good defenders were Klay and Draymond. But everybody could shoot.
Cal needs 3 or 4 more guys who can shoot from range,

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You obviously either don't watch much NBA basketball or don't watch much of the Warriors if you think those were the only two guys who could defend.

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I said they have elite defenders at a few positions. But Steph isn't one of them...and yes enough defensive ability to help them to their championships. I never said they were a bad defensive team.
My opinion is that their success was primarily due to their offense prowess, not their defense.
My point is Cal needs more shooters (obvious).
And yes, I watch a lot of basketball, including the Warriors. Since the early 1960's.

LMK5 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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As a Cal fan, these 2 guys are extremely hard to watch.

Wish there was a way that we could suck some of the energy out of JHD and inject it into Lars. (Kill two birds with one stone)

These guys are extremely hard to watch.

---

I'm not a basketball guy, but I did watch the game last night. Lars is a very tentative player and seems genuinely surprised when the ball finds him. Bears' shooting is very poor also. They seemed unprepared to play last night.

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These are common in young, big players still adjusting to their size and the speed of the game. They need to develop some "muscle memory" and learn to anticipate events on the floor. Lots of reps and game experience can help. He may not have a lot of athleticism but size and a soft shooting touch are serious assets.

Lars is lacking in confidence and knowledge. Frequently, he is surprised to get the ball for two reasons: first, he doesn't anticipate the flow of the game, and, second, he has never seen Paris pass to the post previously. He will improve immensely on the first issue, and graduation will take care of the second.

I agree with much of this talk about young Lars, but I think we are piling on a bit much, and it started with his very first game. It seems as time goes by, that we Cal fans get more and more critical of our players. Is it the years of no success in the NCAA, or teams just not winning enough games for us?

Now we have taken to piling criticism on a young 7-footer from Germany for not being what we expected, I guess. What did you expect? He is an unranked player. He did not splash on the recruiting scene with the glowing reviews of a Dirk Nowitski when Ben Braun tried to sign the great future pro player. Lars was basically unknown compared to Nowitski. If he was known, and if he was matured basketball-wise beyond his years, the Gonzagas, or Arizonas or Utahs of the world would have snapped him up like an anteater scoops up an ant.

I and someone else here at least have said Lars as a freshman is ahead of Darrall Imhoff as a freshman. That means little to fans who never saw the great Darrall, who wasn't so great when he arrived at Cal. He was a gangly klutz, to put it mildly. With coaching and playing, he became a star, and he made the Cal team a star, making those around him better. Maybe I wasn't listening but I don't remember near as much criticism of Rooks and Okoroh by fans, compared to what I am reading here about Lars. They were both slow, clumsy, awkward. They hardly ever dunked a ball, maybe none at all as freshmen, and yet we posters are quick to criticize Lars for missing a shot against USF that, had he more experience, might have gone up hard and dunked it. It was not that he COULD NOT dunk the ball, as one poster said, but that he DID NOT dunk it. He needs to play more and begin to feel what is the right shot for the occasion. If he has been here a year or two and does not dunk that shot, the criticism is amply justified, but not as a freshman in his 8th college game. He has to come to understand that inside that contemptible (for me) little semi-circle painted on the floor, he can't get called for a charge, so just go ahead and take it hard to the rim, no matter who you crash into.

Imhoff was ineligible as a freshman. Here is the sophomore Imhoff vs the freshman Lars, per game:

FG%: Lars .522, Imhoff .353
FT%: Lars .438, Imhoff .400
Rebounds: Lars 2.3, Imhoff 1.4
Points: Lars 3.9, Imhoff 0.9

Frosh Lars vs frosh Solomon Hughes, per game:

FG%: Hughes .524, Lars .522
FT%: Lars .438, Hughes .231
Rebounds: Hughes 2.4, Lars 2.3
Points: Lars 3.9, Hughes 3.3

Frosh Lars vs frosh Rooks and frosh Okoroh, per 40 minutes:

FG%: Lars .522, Okoroh .462, Rooks .429
FT%: Rooks .529, Okoroh .522, Lars .438
Rebounds: Rooks 9.0, Okoroh 6.7, Lars 5.3
Blocks: Okoroh 2.8, Rooks 2.2, Lars 1.8
Turnovers: Rooks 1.3 Okoroh, 2.1, Lars 2.1
Personal Fouls: Lars 5.3, Okoroh 6.0, Rooks 6.8
Points: Lars 9.2, Rooks 7.3, Okoroh 6.1

I did this exercise to show that the freshman Lars, statistically speaking, compares favorably to some Cal centers as freshmen. I don't remember as much critical commentary about Rooks and Okoroh after 8 games, as I am reading here. I do remember fans worried about how Imhoff would be able to fill the shoes of the great Don McIntosh, who had graduated. And I never heard anything negative about Hughes as a freshman.

The stats point out some of the areas I am most concerned with for Lars: Rebounds and free throws. He is not doing much of a job on defense yet, although he seems better man to man than his first game. He was overplaying Jimbo, and got burned several times, but I'd bet he was overplaying him on instructions from the coach, or the coach would have told him to play Jimbo another way when the overplay wasn't working. I like Lars' free throw stroke, and I expect his free throws will improve. Kingsley Okoroh had one of the worst looking free throw strokes, and I can't believe Lars won't become a better shooter than KO was from the line. He has got to make those free throws, or once he begins to score more points, teams will foul him as a smart strategy.

Quote:

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Frosh Lars vs frosh Rooks and frosh Okoroh, per 40 minutes:

FG%: Lars .522, Okoroh .462, Rooks .429
FT%: Rooks .529, Okoroh .522, Lars .438
Rebounds: Rooks 9.0, Okoroh 6.7, Lars 5.3
Blocks: Okoroh 2.8, Rooks 2.2, Lars 1.8
Turnovers: Rooks 1.3 Okoroh, 2.1, Lars 2.1
Personal Fouls: Lars 5.3, Okoroh 6.0, Rooks 6.8
Points: Lars 9.2, Rooks 7.3, Okoroh 6.1

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Thanks for doing this...especially the "per 40"

I felt badly for The King and Ivan and Jaylen and......and....etc.

KO's FT% his senior year was .682...BUT

FG% his last three years: .606 down to .504 down to .405

I certainly hope Lars gets better coaching.

SFCityBear said:

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I agree with much of this talk about young Lars, but I think we are piling on a bit much, and it started with his very first game. It seems as time goes by, that we Cal fans get more and more critical of our players. Is it the years of no success in the NCAA, or teams just not winning enough games for us?

Now we have taken to piling criticism on a young 7-footer from Germany for not being what we expected, I guess. What did you expect? He is an unranked player. He did splash on the recruiting scene with the glowing reviews of a Dirk Nowitski when Ben Braun tried to sign the great future pro player. Lars was basically unknown compared to Nowitski. If he was known, and if he was matured basketball-wise beyond his years, the Gonzagas, or Arizonas or Utahs of the world would have snapped him up like an anteater scoops up an ant.

I and someone else here at least have said Lars as a freshman is ahead of Darrall Imhoff as a freshman. That means little to fans who never saw the great Darrall, who wasn't so great when he arrived at Cal. He was a gangly klutz, to put it mildly. With coaching and playing, he became a star, and he made the Cal team a star, making those around him better. Maybe I wasn't listening but I don't remember near as much criticism of Rooks and Okoroh by fans, compared to what I am reading here about Lars. They were both slow, clumsy, awkward. They hardly ever dunked a ball, maybe none at all as freshmen, and yet we posters are quick to criticize Lars for missing a shot against USF that, had he more experience, might have gone up hard and dunked it. It was not that he COULD NOT dunk the ball, as one poster said, but that he DID NOT dunk it. He needs to play more and begin to feel what is the right shot for the occasion. If he has been here a year or two and does not dunk that shot, the criticism is amply justified, but not as a freshman in his 8th college game. He has to come to understand that inside that contemptible (for me) little semi-circle painted on the floor, he can't get called for a charge, so just go ahead and take it hard to the rim, no matter who you crash into.

Imhoff was ineligible as a freshman. Here is the sophomore Imhoff vs the freshman Lars, per game:

FG%: Lars .522, Imhoff .353
FT%: Lars .438, Imhoff .400
Rebounds: Lars 2.3, Imhoff 1.4
Points: Lars 3.9, Imhoff 0.9

Frosh Lars vs frosh Solomon Hughes, per game:

FG%: Hughes .524, Lars .522
FT%: Lars .438, Hughes .231
Rebounds: Hughes 2.4, Lars 2.3
Points: Lars 3.9, Hughes 3.3

Frosh Lars vs frosh Rooks and frosh Okoroh, per 40 minutes:

FG%: Lars .522, Okoroh .462, Rooks .429
FT%: Rooks .529, Okoroh .522, Lars .438
Rebounds: Rooks 9.0, Okoroh 6.7, Lars 5.3
Blocks: Okoroh 2.8, Rooks 2.2, Lars 1.8
Turnovers: Rooks 1.3 Okoroh, 2.1, Lars 2.1
Personal Fouls: Lars 5.3, Okoroh 6.0, Rooks 6.8
Points: Lars 9.2, Rooks 7.3, Okoroh 6.1

I did this exercise to show that the freshman Lars, statistically speaking, compares favorably to some Cal centers as freshmen. I don't remember as much critical commentary about Rooks and Okoroh after 8 games, as I am reading here. I do remember fans worried about how Imhoff would be able to fill the shoes of the great Don McIntosh, who had graduated. And I never heard anything negative about Hughes as a freshman.

The stats point out some of the areas I am most concerned with for Lars: Rebounds and free throws. He is not doing much of a job on defense yet, although he seems better man to man than his first game. He was overplaying Jimbo, and got burned several times, but I'd bet he was overplaying him on instructions from the coach, or the coach would have told him to play Jimbo another way when the overplay wasn't working. I like Lars' free throw stroke, and I expect his free throws will improve. Kingsley Okoroh had one of the worst looking free throw strokes, and I can't believe Lars won't become a better shooter than KO was from the line. He has got to make those free throws, or once he begins to score more points, teams will foul him as a smart strategy.

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I don't disagree with this. I would hope it isn't about piling on. It is, however, pointing out that when people critcize our lack of three point DEFENSE they are sometimes failing to understand how basketball is a TEAM game - we often left the Dons guys on the perimeter because Lars could do nothing against Emo Bun Dude (EBD for short ;-) and thus had to hedge down and we could not recover. The best was when Bradley did it - who is fast and strong enough to actually force EBD into some bad passes. The problem is that this will be the scouting report on cal....attack the block and go in to out.

My observations of Lars is not to "pile on." I know he needs minutes to improve for the future. My issue is why is he is getting so many minutes while D.J. barely gets to play. Obviously this is a rebuilding year but it still beneficial to win some games along the way. Lets give a few of his minutes to Thorpe and see what he can do.

Quote:

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I don't disagree with this. I would hope it isn't about piling on. It is, however, pointing out that when people critcize our lack of three point DEFENSE they are sometimes failing to understand how basketball is a TEAM game - we often left the Dons guys on the perimeter because Lars could do nothing against Emo Bun Dude (EBD for short ;-) and thus had to hedge down and we could not recover. The best was when Bradley did it - who is fast and strong enough to actually force EBD into some bad passes. The problem is that this will be the scouting report on cal....attack the block and go in to out.

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BTW: EBD is dyslexic and has worked very hard (academically, athletically ....) to, literally, be the best
he can be.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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My observations of Lars is not to "pile on." I know he needs minutes to improve for the future. My issue is why is he is getting so many minutes while D.J. barely gets to play. Obviously this is a rebuilding year but it still beneficial to win some games along the way. Lets give a few of his minutes to Thorpe and see what he can do.

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I agree with you, and I'd like to see more of Thorpe. Same goes for Gordon and Kuany. Some of it could be Thorpe's health. I don't think we know for sure that Thorpe, Gordon, or Kuany are all ready and able to play at 100%, or at least play with a low risk of re-injury. Fox is very guarded about revealing anything about a player's condition and readiness to play. Many or most coaches are the same in this regard.

bearup said:

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Quote:

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I don't disagree with this. I would hope it isn't about piling on. It is, however, pointing out that when people critcize our lack of three point DEFENSE they are sometimes failing to understand how basketball is a TEAM game - we often left the Dons guys on the perimeter because Lars could do nothing against Emo Bun Dude (EBD for short ;-) and thus had to hedge down and we could not recover. The best was when Bradley did it - who is fast and strong enough to actually force EBD into some bad passes. The problem is that this will be the scouting report on cal....attack the block and go in to out.

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BTW: EBD is dyslexic and has worked very hard (academically, athletically ....) to, literally, be the best
he can be.

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Kudos to the young man. It is always good to hear these stories of overcoming a disability or an injury. He'll be a load for many teams to try and defend this season.

S said:

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Kudos to the young man. It is always good to hear these stories of overcoming a disability or an injury. He'll be a load for many teams to try and defend this season.

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Really want to root for him.