bluesaxe said:

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calgo430 said:

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bottom line get a really good scorer who can create. one james harden prospect would be good for all cal bball fans.

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Please use a different example. I hate that guy's game.

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To the point where you actually thought he'd be a bust in the league, actually.

sluggo said:

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What makes me crazy is that I am sure that the answer is no. But if you are so incompetent that you would not want to watch video, you can get your basketball crazy intern (me thirty years ago) to watch for you. I could have told you Fox was a no go. Better yet, you have a couple of friends in the basketball business who can give you unbiased advice.

I have watched Cal basketball since the Campanelli era. If we exclude recruiting, there has only been one above average coach (Montgomery) and six (Campy, Bozeman, Braun, Martin, Jones, Fox) below average coaches. It is not so damn hard. Go to a program that has good player development and in-game coaching and take the top assistant. They don't charge much because they want a head coaching gig and you get someone who is good at basketball coaching. Maybe I should start a search firm.

Sluggo

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While I tend to agree with your sentiment about the hire, I think two of your points are misleading (or possibly misinformed).

First, other than Jones, the coaches you mention are probably better described as average P6 (70+ teams) coaches or above average D1 (300+) coaches. Below average would best fit if you were only talking about Top 25 programs, which Cal has barely touched in that period. And by that metric, Monty would best be described as average while at Cal (and honestly he performed better at Stanford after a few years, then he did at Cal).

Second: Today's P5 head coaches have much more on their plate than player development and in-game coaching (although probably of highest importance). Managing a recruiting staff is also vitally important in today's P5 landscape. Any AD interviewing a head coach is also looking for someone to help them with Compliance, Campus relations, general PR, Fundraising, etc. Top assistants at a good program don't always provide that.

Finally, Cal is/was not the only program looking for coaches - and they probably don't get the pick of the crop when they have a recent history of dysfunction.


But yeah, at this point, I'm feeling that Fox is like a rebound girlfriend. He's something that isn't like the last one, but probably not going to marry.

Callisto said:

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bluesaxe said:

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calgo430 said:

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bottom line get a really good scorer who can create. one james harden prospect would be good for all cal bball fans.

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Please use a different example. I hate that guy's game.

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To the point where you actually thought he'd be a bust in the league, actually.

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Not a bust, but not a star and certainly not the scorer he is now. I was wrong about that, but I wouldn't want to have him on a team I rooted for. I am not a fan of guys using their talent to fool refs and then choking in the playoffs, but I do admit to enjoying the latter.

The ASU guy I thought would be a bust was Diogu,

SFCityBear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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sluggo said:

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What makes me crazy is that I am sure that the answer is no. But if you are so incompetent that you would not want to watch video, you can get your basketball crazy intern (me thirty years ago) to watch for you. I could have told you Fox was a no go. Better yet, you have a couple of friends in the basketball business who can give you unbiased advice.

I have watched Cal basketball since the Campanelli era. If we exclude recruiting, there has only been one above average coach (Montgomery) and six (Campy, Bozeman, Braun, Martin, Jones, Fox) below average coaches. It is not so damn hard. Go to a program that has good player development and in-game coaching and take the top assistant. They don't charge much because they want a head coaching gig and you get someone who is good at basketball coaching. Maybe I should start a search firm.

Sluggo

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Don't take this as approving the current process, but I've watched Cal basketball since Dick Edwards and Cal did exactly what you suggest when they hired Dick Kuchen. Results were not better. OK, maybe his rep was more in recruiting than player development, but it's not that simple.

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I agree. I think I remember Kuchen being highly regarded as an assistant at Notre Dame at working with big men, and also regarded as an excellent teacher of the motion offense. Unfortunately, it didn't translate into success at Cal.

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Although, having said that, if Cal had gone with a guy like Kenny Payne from Kentucky or Tommy Lloyd from Gonzaga, both assistants at successful programs with both recruiting chops and good reputations for player development (Payne in particular) I'd have been considerably more excited about Cal's prospects. I just read that Tim Miles was a finalist for the Cal job, a guy who coached Nebraska for seven years and made the tourney once. If that's the kind of experienced candidate pool we're talking about, roll the damned dice.

BeachedBear said:

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But yeah, at this point, I'm feeling that Fox is like a rebound girlfriend. He's something that isn't like the last one, but probably not going to marry.

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This is the best description of Fox yet.

bluesaxe said:

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SFCityBear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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sluggo said:

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What makes me crazy is that I am sure that the answer is no. But if you are so incompetent that you would not want to watch video, you can get your basketball crazy intern (me thirty years ago) to watch for you. I could have told you Fox was a no go. Better yet, you have a couple of friends in the basketball business who can give you unbiased advice.

I have watched Cal basketball since the Campanelli era. If we exclude recruiting, there has only been one above average coach (Montgomery) and six (Campy, Bozeman, Braun, Martin, Jones, Fox) below average coaches. It is not so damn hard. Go to a program that has good player development and in-game coaching and take the top assistant. They don't charge much because they want a head coaching gig and you get someone who is good at basketball coaching. Maybe I should start a search firm.

Sluggo

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Don't take this as approving the current process, but I've watched Cal basketball since Dick Edwards and Cal did exactly what you suggest when they hired Dick Kuchen. Results were not better. OK, maybe his rep was more in recruiting than player development, but it's not that simple.

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I agree. I think I remember Kuchen being highly regarded as an assistant at Notre Dame at working with big men, and also regarded as an excellent teacher of the motion offense. Unfortunately, it didn't translate into success at Cal.

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Although, having said that, if Cal had gone with a guy like Kenny Payne from Kentucky or Tommy Lloyd from Gonzaga, both assistants at successful programs with both recruiting chops and good reputations for player development (Payne in particular) I'd have been considerably more excited about Cal's prospects. I just read that Tim Miles was a finalist for the Cal job, a guy who coached Nebraska for seven years and made the tourney once. If that's the kind of experienced candidate pool we're talking about, roll the damned dice.

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I think if you look at Cal's coaching hires in basketball, Fox is another example of a fundamental problem with Cal's hiring philosophy. Cal is much more interested in hiring a coach that impresses 75 year old donors with a lot of money than 17 year old high school kids with a lot of basketball skill. The marketing department sending out that video of Fox talking at the team while really talking to issues that appeal to alums shows this mindset. I cringed at the video because it made Fox look bad and it should have been obvious that at least the way it was cut was not going to appeal to teenagers any more than a spoonful of castor oil. Until Cal gets an AD who will put himself in the shoes of a 17 year old who wants a career in basketball rather than a 60 year old administrator things aren't going to change much.

The coaching profession has changed drastically in the last 50 years. Some of what was considered good coaching technique when our monied alums were playing sports in their youth is considered antiquated now. If I had money, what would impress me is success, not a bunch of platitudes about discipline and such.

Yeah, I have yet to be impressed by anything Fox has said. He does the repeating thing a lot to add emphasis. "I'm going to ask you all to work harder than you ever have before. Harder then you ever have before. It's going to be a process. A process." Ugh, never a good sign. The guy has like no sense of humor either. Be human, be relatable---that's the first step to good leadership.

Did he come up with "Invest and Attack"? Because that's the worst rallying cry I've ever heard.

I'm a teenager with any basketball skills, Cal is off my radar completely.

parentswerebears said:

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I'm a teenager with any basketball skills, Cal is off my radar completely.

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Unfortunately, that is exactly what I heard from a number of high school recruits when Monty was coaching at Cal ( and when I still knew any HS recruits). It blew me away - and I think it had more to do with their influencers (family/youth coaches/etc) who simply didn't appreciate what Monty could do as a coach.

BeachedBear said:

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parentswerebears said:

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I'm a teenager with any basketball skills, Cal is off my radar completely.

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Unfortunately, that is exactly what I heard from a number of high school recruits when Monty was coaching at Cal ( and when I still knew any HS recruits). It blew me away - and I think it had more to do with their influencers (family/youth coaches/etc) who simply didn't appreciate what Monty could do as a coach.

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Monty's distaste for dealing with "influencers" made me equal parts respect him and realize that his days were frankly numbered. Not that I wouldn't have preferred Monty to everything we have had since, but Monty was not going to reach the heights he had previously and I think he knew that to do so he was going to have to deal with people he didn't want to deal with.

Fox definitely is no Montgomery.

BC Calfan said:

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Did he come up with "Invest and Attack"? Because that's the worst rallying cry I've ever heard.

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"Whip Inflation Now" - Gerald Ford

BC Calfan said:

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Yeah, I have yet to be impressed by anything Fox has said. He does the repeating thing a lot to add emphasis. "I'm going to ask you all to work harder than you ever have before. Harder then you ever have before. It's going to be a process. A process." Ugh, never a good sign. The guy has like no sense of humor either. Be human, be relatable---that's the first step to good leadership.

Did he come up with "Invest and Attack"? Because that's the worst rallying cry I've ever heard.

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Next year's slogan is "Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe!"