Missouri not doing well and lot of discontent amongst the fan base
So will Cuonzo find a new coaching opportunity now?
5,984 Views |
51 Replies |
Last: 4 yr ago by Jeff82
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
Nathan will surely have a better grasp on this than me but Cuonzo isn't going anywhere for a while. For one thing, they can't even fire him at all (unless for cause) in the first three years. And the buyout is fairly prohibitive after that. I believe there's a provision that calls for the contract to auto extend if he wins 20 games or go to the tourney (which he's done once) which also pushes the buyout back a year too. And the original $21M of the original deal is locked in. So, I think they'd be looking at a buyout of $8M or so to fire him once that initial three year guarantee elapses.
martin went to missouri and immediately hired the father of the #1 recruit (porter jr) and his 5 star younger brother
he also signed some other 4 star players that year
it looked like missouri would be off to the races
but then the #1 player was injured for almost the entire season, and even though the team had a lot of talent, they flamed out. I think they lost to in the first round of the NCAA (with the porter jr actually playing in the game)
missouri continues to recruit well, but just has poor results on the court
he also signed some other 4 star players that year
it looked like missouri would be off to the races
but then the #1 player was injured for almost the entire season, and even though the team had a lot of talent, they flamed out. I think they lost to in the first round of the NCAA (with the porter jr actually playing in the game)
missouri continues to recruit well, but just has poor results on the court
Of course. Beau Baldwin got a job.MiZery said:
Missouri not doing well and lot of discontent amongst the fan base
Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's "great" foundation for Cal's future was Lee, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits), along with Davis, Coleman, and Hamilton. He also signed future players Sueing, Anticevich, and JHD, and Wyking was able to hold on to them, but lost future recruit Baker. Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks, Moute a Bidias, and Christian Behrens.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
Cuonzo Martin = A+ self promoter. You have to respect that. He made bank.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Martin's 18-0 year was impressive, but the metric that matters is home record in the Pac-12, since overall home record is padded with OOC games against directional schools, etc.SFCityBear said:Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's great foundation for Cal's future was Rabb, Bird, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits). Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks. All of it now down the dumper.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
bearister said:
Cuonzo Martin = A+ self promoter. You have to respect that. He made bank.
I disagree that you have to respect that. Why exactly?
True. Montgomery had two seasons at Cal with 17-1 home records, also impressive. How about road record? I don't know if it is an important metric, but if you win games on the road, especially conference road games in unfriendly arenas, that can build confidence for tourney games against good opponents, which are usually all away from home.UrsaMajor said:Martin's 18-0 year was impressive, but the metric that matters is home record in the Pac-12, since overall home record is padded with OOC games against directional schools, etc.SFCityBear said:Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's great foundation for Cal's future was Rabb, Bird, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits). Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks. All of it now down the dumper.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
Bearprof said:bearister said:
Cuonzo Martin = A+ self promoter. You have to respect that. He made bank.
I disagree that you have to respect that. Why exactly?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Absolutely. I was only commenting on the fact that home records tend to be inflated. The typical successful season might be going 7-2 or 8-1 at home and 5-4 on the road. (yes, of course we'd like to be better than that but...)SFCityBear said:True. Montgomery had two seasons at Cal with 17-1 home records, also impressive. How about road record? I don't know if it is an important metric, but if you win games on the road, especially conference road games in unfriendly arenas, that can build confidence for tourney games against good opponents, which are usually all away from home.UrsaMajor said:Martin's 18-0 year was impressive, but the metric that matters is home record in the Pac-12, since overall home record is padded with OOC games against directional schools, etc.SFCityBear said:Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's great foundation for Cal's future was Rabb, Bird, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits). Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks. All of it now down the dumper.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
SFCityBear said:Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's great foundation for Cal's future was Rabb, Bird, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits). Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks. All of it now down the dumper.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
And Lee, right?
You are correct. I made a mistake. I should have listed Lee as part of the foundation which Martin left for the future, not Rabb, as Rabb had left soon after Martin's final season ended. And Martin should get some credit for the recruits he had signed before he left, Sueing, JHD, and Anticevich, but not as much credit for signing Baker, and Wyking was unable to convince him to stay. Baker was out of here as fast as the Roadrunner could run, so I wonder if he ever gave Wyking a chance to talk to him. Martin also left Roman Davis, Don Coleman, and Nick Hamilton, etc., who should be mentioned.calumnus said:SFCityBear said:Martin was undefeated at home in one of his three seasons. Overall at home, he had a record of winning 81%, While Montgomery's record at home was 83%. Martin's great foundation for Cal's future was Rabb, Bird, Singer, KO, and Rooks (3 of whom were Montgomery recruits). Montgomery's foundation that he left was Bird, Wallace, Mathews, Kravish, Singer, and Rooks. All of it now down the dumper.Bobodeluxe said:
Many experts here would have him back. Undefeated at home, and a great foundation for the foreseeable future.
And Lee, right?
In that light, Roger Moute a Bidias and Christian Behrens should also be listed as players whom Montgomery left for the foundation for Cal's future. Unless Montgomery had signed Hamilton, Montgomery left no one else for the foundation for Cal's future. I think Hamilton was signed by Martin.
Hamilton walked on at Cal, as a Bill Gates Millennium Scholar. Probably came here mostly for the academics.
Joined:
Feb 26, 2019
Posts:
1,408
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
This is almost correct. There was a clause in his contract that if he made an NCAA Tourny or had 20+ wins in one of his first three seasons, he gets an additional three years where he cannot be fired without cause (that's how unattractive the Mizzou hoops job was at the time). Since he did that in his first season, he cannot be fired without cause before next spring. And even then, it's a $6.5 million buyout which is a lot for an athletics department that has been operating in the red for years now.TheSouseFamily said:
Nathan will surely have a better grasp on this than me but Cuonzo isn't going anywhere for a while. For one thing, they can't even fire him at all (unless for cause) in the first three years. And the buyout is fairly prohibitive after that. I believe there's a provision that calls for the contract to auto extend if he wins 20 games or go to the tourney (which he's done once) which also pushes the buyout back a year too. And the original $21M of the original deal is locked in. So, I think they'd be looking at a buyout of $8M or so to fire him once that initial three year guarantee elapses.
If you're still with me and want to hear (read) some more thoughts from a lifelong Mizzou fan and Berkeley fan of the last six years, read on.
First, on Martin leaving Cal for Mizzou. I realize there is a group of Cal fans still upset about how Cuonzo left, but this was objectively the best decision for him and his family. First, it was a massive raise in not just the raw financial numbers but also comparing cost-of-living in Columbia, Missouri compared to Berkeley. Second, Columbia is a little more than two hours away from where Cuonzo grew up and still has family in East Saint Louis, Illinois. Lastly, Cuonzo has spoken at length on record about the importance of his presence at a university with some recent racial tensions. I don't think you can blame a guy for any of those reasons to take a new job.
Is there fan discontentment in the Mizzou base? Yes. But it's mainly the same subset of fans that exist in all fanbases and what to fire a coach as soon as things don't go well. I think most can see some objective truths about the program. It was in a generational-low. There was virtually no talent on the roster and no consistency. So you're starting at a horrible level and then you get some really bad key industries in each of the three seasons Cuonzo has been the coach.
First with Michael Porter Jr. I know a lot of people around the country saw that situation as Martin hiring his way to the No. 1 recruit and while that's true, I think a lot of people miss some context. First, once Romar was fired from UW, no matter who Mizzou hired, that person was going to hire Mike Porter Sr and get MPJ and his brother Jontay. The family grew up in Columbia, Missouri and MPJ's aunt (senior's sister-in-law) has been the Mizzou women's head coach for years now. It was known around the program that the Porters would come back for basically anyone besides the coach before Cuonzo (Martin).
MPJ is a player you build your offense around. And then he gets injured in the first two minutes of the season. The fact Martin was still able to get that team to an NCAA Tourny was an incredible coaching job. He took a team that had finished last in the SEC multiple years in a row, plugged in a few pieces, and coached it to an NCAA birth.
In the second season, Jontay Porter (MPJ's younger brother) went down in a scrimmage a couple weeks before the season with an ACL tear. That's another person you absolutely build the offense around. Later in the season, the team's best shooter, Mark Smith also got injured for the remainder of the season. And now this season, right at the beginning of conference play, Mizzou's junior center Jeremiah Tilmon goes down with an injury.
It's not excuses. This season has for sure been a disappointment and already was one before Tilmon's injury and I think even the more rational subsets of the fanbase are questioning Martin's coaching ability, which is fair.
As for the Martin is a "self-promoter" comments, I'm not even sure what that means. What college coach isn't going to do their own self-promoting? But at the end of the day, you can question Martin's coaching all you want. And it has been less than impressive this season. But you can't question the man's character. In a world that sees schools cheating very regularly, by all accounts, Cuonzo has done things right. And that doesn't even touch on his survival of cancer and survival and rise out of East Saint Louis, which is a tough place to grow up.
Now go ahead and rip all this apart!
1. "I don't think you can blame a guy for any of those reasons to take a new job."
I not only don't blame him, I'm glad he left
2." As for the Martin is a "self-promoter" comments, I'm not even sure what that means."
I can only tell you what I mean: He has successfully convinced at least two programs that he is worth a lot more money than he is actually worth. I do not think he is a good basketball coach, or at a minimum, not good enough to justify his compensation. His recruiting ability exceeds his coaching ability but I'm not sure his recruiting justifies his salary level either;
3. " But you can't question the man's character."
You are picking a fight with an empty room here. Who ever questioned his character? I don't know him. In print his character seemed exemplary. The only minor bone I had to pick with him is that ticket buyers for the NIT game against Cal State Bakersfield got defrauded because Cuonzo had the new gig lined up and he knew he was going to tank that game before hand and I wished I had known that. That game also shamed the university. If memory serves he was accused of looking the other way and enabling the sexual harassment conduct of his assistant coach but that was never proven so he could be completely innocent in that matter.
P.S. Mark Fox is a far superior basketball coach although it is unlikely he will ever land a recruit like Jaylen Brown or even Ivan Rabb. I might add Cuonzo had no idea how to coach up Brown or Rabb and Rabb cost himself millions sticking around a program for an extra year that did zero for his player development.
I not only don't blame him, I'm glad he left
2." As for the Martin is a "self-promoter" comments, I'm not even sure what that means."
I can only tell you what I mean: He has successfully convinced at least two programs that he is worth a lot more money than he is actually worth. I do not think he is a good basketball coach, or at a minimum, not good enough to justify his compensation. His recruiting ability exceeds his coaching ability but I'm not sure his recruiting justifies his salary level either;
3. " But you can't question the man's character."
You are picking a fight with an empty room here. Who ever questioned his character? I don't know him. In print his character seemed exemplary. The only minor bone I had to pick with him is that ticket buyers for the NIT game against Cal State Bakersfield got defrauded because Cuonzo had the new gig lined up and he knew he was going to tank that game before hand and I wished I had known that. That game also shamed the university. If memory serves he was accused of looking the other way and enabling the sexual harassment conduct of his assistant coach but that was never proven so he could be completely innocent in that matter.
P.S. Mark Fox is a far superior basketball coach although it is unlikely he will ever land a recruit like Jaylen Brown or even Ivan Rabb. I might add Cuonzo had no idea how to coach up Brown or Rabb and Rabb cost himself millions sticking around a program for an extra year that did zero for his player development.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Good stuff, Nathan, as always. Well said.
I'm a little less down on Cuonzo than many here. I saw him as a good man, a strong leader of young men and someone who brought a needed dose or toughness and grit defensively. Even though he left us in the lurch, what coach wouldn't leave to take a ton more money to be closer to home and to be in an environment a little more conducive to success?
He's surely been snake-bit by the rash of key injuries at Mizzou just as we was for us just before our NCAA tourney meltdown against Hawaii. Those are tough lumps. But It made sense for him to bring Porter Sr and his kids on board. Frankly, it was a wise move and it was way more defensible than what SC did with Mobley.
I think he was generally good for Cal until the unfortunate, albeit understandable, circumstances of his departure.
I had two primary complaints about his time at Cal. First, the way he phoned in the last part of his final season was inexcusable, especially when we were fighting for a tourney bid late in the year. Just seemed like he didn't care and had a foot out the door. It all struck me as unprofessional. The Bakersfield NiT was one of the most bizarre, most surreal Cal games I've ever seen and I thought it inexcusable.
And second, it seemed like his greatest strength was having the recruiting chops to make Cal relevant for guys like Jaylen Brown, Ivan Rabb and even Charlie Moore. But recruiting (and to be more precise, scouting) was probably his biggest weakness. Anyone can recruit top 20 players and be confident they'll produce. But once we got to recruiting and scouting non-obvious guys outside the top 150, those results were Pretty poor. For every 1-year guy like Brown, there was a 4-year guy like Roman Davis who never ever averaged double figures at a small HS. For every Rabb, there was a Brandon Chauca. We got a Charlie Moore but then also a Don Coleman and a few more recruiting misses of marginal, poorly scouted/assessed guys. We got a few stars for 1-2 years and a bunch of other 3-4 year guys who frankly never should have gotten scholarships. So, for me, recruiting was decidedly mixed and probably a net negative.
Still, no hard feelings. It's a shame the early optimism of his tenure led to minimal successs and eventually us getting stuck with a roster with a bunch of guys that weren't ever gonna be valuable contributors which put us (and especially Wyking) in a serous hole.
I'm a little less down on Cuonzo than many here. I saw him as a good man, a strong leader of young men and someone who brought a needed dose or toughness and grit defensively. Even though he left us in the lurch, what coach wouldn't leave to take a ton more money to be closer to home and to be in an environment a little more conducive to success?
He's surely been snake-bit by the rash of key injuries at Mizzou just as we was for us just before our NCAA tourney meltdown against Hawaii. Those are tough lumps. But It made sense for him to bring Porter Sr and his kids on board. Frankly, it was a wise move and it was way more defensible than what SC did with Mobley.
I think he was generally good for Cal until the unfortunate, albeit understandable, circumstances of his departure.
I had two primary complaints about his time at Cal. First, the way he phoned in the last part of his final season was inexcusable, especially when we were fighting for a tourney bid late in the year. Just seemed like he didn't care and had a foot out the door. It all struck me as unprofessional. The Bakersfield NiT was one of the most bizarre, most surreal Cal games I've ever seen and I thought it inexcusable.
And second, it seemed like his greatest strength was having the recruiting chops to make Cal relevant for guys like Jaylen Brown, Ivan Rabb and even Charlie Moore. But recruiting (and to be more precise, scouting) was probably his biggest weakness. Anyone can recruit top 20 players and be confident they'll produce. But once we got to recruiting and scouting non-obvious guys outside the top 150, those results were Pretty poor. For every 1-year guy like Brown, there was a 4-year guy like Roman Davis who never ever averaged double figures at a small HS. For every Rabb, there was a Brandon Chauca. We got a Charlie Moore but then also a Don Coleman and a few more recruiting misses of marginal, poorly scouted/assessed guys. We got a few stars for 1-2 years and a bunch of other 3-4 year guys who frankly never should have gotten scholarships. So, for me, recruiting was decidedly mixed and probably a net negative.
Still, no hard feelings. It's a shame the early optimism of his tenure led to minimal successs and eventually us getting stuck with a roster with a bunch of guys that weren't ever gonna be valuable contributors which put us (and especially Wyking) in a serous hole.
Joined:
Feb 26, 2019
Posts:
1,408
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
bearister said:
1. "I don't think you can blame a guy for any of those reasons to take a new job."
I not only don't blame him, I'm glad he left
2." As for the Martin is a "self-promoter" comments, I'm not even sure what that means."
I can only tell you what I mean: He has successfully convinced at least two programs that he is worth a lot more money than he is actually worth. I do not think he is a good basketball coach, or at a minimum, not good enough to justify his compensation. His recruiting ability exceeds his coaching ability but I'm not sure his recruiting justifies his salary level either;
3. " But you can't question the man's character."
You are picking a fight with an empty room here. Who ever questioned his character? I don't know him. In print his character seemed exemplary. The only minor bone I had to pick with him is that ticket buyers for the NIT game against Cal State Bakersfield got defrauded because Cuonzo had the new gig lined up and he knew he was going to tank that game before hand and I wished I had known that. That game also shamed the university. If memory serves he was accused of looking the other way and enabling the sexual harassment conduct of his Israeli assistant coach but that was never proven so he could be completely innocent in that matter.
P.S. Mark Fox is a far superior basketball coach although it is unlikely he will ever land a recruit like Jaylen Brown or even Ivan Rabb. I might add Cuonzo had no idea how coach up Brown or Rabb and Rabb cost himself millions sticking around a program for an extra year that did zero for his player development.
I'm not gonna get into any of this with sour grapes in the fan base.
The only Cal players I can remember who improved significantly under Martin's coaching were Jabari Bird (on defense) and Kingsley Okoroh (to a rather low ceiling). Then again very few stayed long enough for coaching to have much effect.bearister said:
P.S. Mark Fox is a far superior basketball coach although it is unlikely he will ever land a recruit like Jaylen Brown or even Ivan Rabb. I might add Cuonzo had no idea how coach up Brown or Rabb and Rabb cost himself millions sticking around a program for an extra year that did zero for his player development.
I also think Martin's recruiting was overrated because he failed to recruit enough good players who would stay at Cal enough seasons to maintain a full roster. That might be better at Missouri, dunno.
Not sour grapes. Just stating the facts.NathanAllen said:I'm not gonna get into any of this with sour grapes in the fan base.bearister said:
...the NIT game against Cal State Bakersfield (fans) got defrauded because Cuonzo had the new gig lined up and he knew he was going to tank that game before hand and I wished I had known that. That game also shamed the university. ...Cuonzo had no idea how coach up Brown or Rabb and Rabb cost himself millions sticking around a program for an extra year that did zero for his player development.
"Now go ahead and rip all this apart!"
So now you are telling me you didn't really mean that? I didn't rip you apart anyway. Lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo yet you singled out some of my comments so I gave the reasoning behind them. You then get upset that I disagree with you and go to the personal level and chalk up my take as "sour grapes." I never characterized your take with any insulting terms.
So now you are telling me you didn't really mean that? I didn't rip you apart anyway. Lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo yet you singled out some of my comments so I gave the reasoning behind them. You then get upset that I disagree with you and go to the personal level and chalk up my take as "sour grapes." I never characterized your take with any insulting terms.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
NathanAllen said:This is almost correct. There was a clause in his contract that if he made an NCAA Tourny or had 20+ wins in one of his first three seasons, he gets an additional three years where he cannot be fired without cause (that's how unattractive the Mizzou hoops job was at the time). Since he did that in his first season, he cannot be fired without cause before next spring. And even then, it's a $6.5 million buyout which is a lot for an athletics department that has been operating in the red for years now.TheSouseFamily said:
Nathan will surely have a better grasp on this than me but Cuonzo isn't going anywhere for a while. For one thing, they can't even fire him at all (unless for cause) in the first three years. And the buyout is fairly prohibitive after that. I believe there's a provision that calls for the contract to auto extend if he wins 20 games or go to the tourney (which he's done once) which also pushes the buyout back a year too. And the original $21M of the original deal is locked in. So, I think they'd be looking at a buyout of $8M or so to fire him once that initial three year guarantee elapses.
If you're still with me and want to hear (read) some more thoughts from a lifelong Mizzou fan and Berkeley fan of the last six years, read on.
First, on Martin leaving Cal for Mizzou. I realize there is a group of Cal fans still upset about how Cuonzo left, but this was objectively the best decision for him and his family. First, it was a massive raise in not just the raw financial numbers but also comparing cost-of-living in Columbia, Missouri compared to Berkeley. Second, Columbia is a little more than two hours away from where Cuonzo grew up and still has family in East Saint Louis, Illinois. Lastly, Cuonzo has spoken at length on record about the importance of his presence at a university with some recent racial tensions. I don't think you can blame a guy for any of those reasons to take a new job.
Is there fan discontentment in the Mizzou base? Yes. But it's mainly the same subset of fans that exist in all fanbases and what to fire a coach as soon as things don't go well. I think most can see some objective truths about the program. It was in a generational-low. There was virtually no talent on the roster and no consistency. So you're starting at a horrible level and then you get some really bad key industries in each of the three seasons Cuonzo has been the coach.
First with Michael Porter Jr. I know a lot of people around the country saw that situation as Martin hiring his way to the No. 1 recruit and while that's true, I think a lot of people miss some context. First, once Romar was fired from UW, no matter who Mizzou hired, that person was going to hire Mike Porter Sr and get MPJ and his brother Jontay. The family grew up in Columbia, Missouri and MPJ's aunt (senior's sister-in-law) has been the Mizzou women's head coach for years now. It was known around the program that the Porters would come back for basically anyone besides the coach before Cuonzo (Martin).
MPJ is a player you build your offense around. And then he gets injured in the first two minutes of the season. The fact Martin was still able to get that team to an NCAA Tourny was an incredible coaching job. He took a team that had finished last in the SEC multiple years in a row, plugged in a few pieces, and coached it to an NCAA birth.
In the second season, Jontay Porter (MPJ's younger brother) went down in a scrimmage a couple weeks before the season with an ACL tear. That's another person you absolutely build the offense around. Later in the season, the team's best shooter, Mark Smith also got injured for the remainder of the season. And now this season, right at the beginning of conference play, Mizzou's junior center Jeremiah Tilmon goes down with an injury.
It's not excuses. This season has for sure been a disappointment and already was one before Tilmon's injury and I think even the more rational subsets of the fanbase are questioning Martin's coaching ability, which is fair.
As for the Martin is a "self-promoter" comments, I'm not even sure what that means. What college coach isn't going to do their own self-promoting? But at the end of the day, you can question Martin's coaching all you want. And it has been less than impressive this season. But you can't question the man's character. In a world that sees schools cheating very regularly, by all accounts, Cuonzo has done things right. And that doesn't even touch on his survival of cancer and survival and rise out of East Saint Louis, which is a tough place to grow up.
Now go ahead and rip all this apart!
Nathan, thanks for a great and knowledgeable post. Personally, I had no problems with Cuonzo Martin's departure. While he did not prove to be the greatest on-court coach here, and was also not a very strategic recruiter, he always had my respect. Good for him for landing a higher paying job, near his home area. I have always wished him well.
Joined:
Feb 26, 2019
Posts:
1,408
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
I didn't state once I was upset. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way. College sports is a point of enjoyment to me which is why I spend time covering Cal. I was simply trying to give some context around the Missouri and Cuonzo Martin situation.bearister said:
"Now go ahead and rip all this apart!"
So now you are telling me you didn't really mean that? I didn't rip you apart anyway. Lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo yet you singled out some of my comments so I gave the reasoning behind them. You then get upset that I disagree with you and go to the personal level and chalk up my take as "sour grapes." I never characterized your take with any insulting terms.
I've just never understood why "lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo" as you stated, which is also what I consider sour grapes. It's been three years and two coaches since Cuonzo was on the sideline in Berkeley. Why is this something people still care about?
Cal just had arguably its best win of the season against a rival school and Cuonzo Martin is still a topic of discussion?
Joined:
Feb 26, 2019
Posts:
1,408
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
I think these are two very smart and legitimate critiques on Martin. I'm not sure how much I buy into the "phoning" it in idea, but there was a very similar situation at Mizzou when Mike Anderson left for Arkansas. Martin also coached an absolute stinker this year when Charleston Southern came into Columbia and made the Teeegers look silly.TheSouseFamily said:
I had two primary complaints about his time at Cal. First, the way he phoned in the last part of his final season was inexcusable, especially when we were fighting for a tourney bid late in the year. Just seemed like he didn't care and had a foot out the door. It all struck me as unprofessional. The Bakersfield NiT was one of the most bizarre, most surreal Cal games I've ever seen and I thought it inexcusable.
And second, it seemed like his greatest strength was having the recruiting chops to make Cal relevant for guys like Jaylen Brown, Ivan Rabb and even Charlie Moore. But recruiting (and to be more precise, scouting) was probably his biggest weakness. Anyone can recruit top 20 players and be confident they'll produce. But once we got to recruiting and scouting non-obvious guys outside the top 150, those results were Pretty poor. For every 1-year guy like Brown, there was a 4-year guy like Roman Davis who never ever averaged double figures at a small HS. For every Rabb, there was a Brandon Chauca. We got a Charlie Moore but then also a Don Coleman and a few more recruiting misses of marginal, poorly scouted/assessed guys. We got a few stars for 1-2 years and a bunch of other 3-4 year guys who frankly never should have gotten scholarships. So, for me, recruiting was decidedly mixed and probably a net negative.
While injuries to key players have been tough, his misses on scouting and (lack of) player development could be what end up causing an earlier separation between him and Mizzou. A lot of this season's and overall program's success depends on how the current sophomore class improves. And so far, basically, all of them look the same or worse than they did as freshmen.
When schools like Cal and Missouri have coaches like Fox and Martin, they're not going to draw in loads of blue-chip recruits. So they're going to have to thrive on very good scouting and player development. I think Tad Boyle at Colorado is a decent comparison. He's built a very strong team by getting some continuity and developing three-star types of players.
" It's been three years and two coaches since Cuonzo was on the sideline in Berkeley. Why is this something people still care about?"
Hell, at least 90% of the BI community still has a major case of the red a$$ over Walter Christie's coaching deficiencies.
Hell, at least 90% of the BI community still has a major case of the red a$$ over Walter Christie's coaching deficiencies.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Bearister--
Yanni wasn't Israeli, he was a New Yorker
And yes he is proudly Jewish.
And what the crap does that have to do with any misdeeds he was credited with.
Yanni wasn't Israeli, he was a New Yorker
And yes he is proudly Jewish.
And what the crap does that have to do with any misdeeds he was credited with.
Apparently Yanni is no longer coaching and started a business that sells "cold pressed lemon flavored water."
calfanz said:
Bearister--
Yanni wasn't Israeli, he was a New Yorker
And yes he is proudly Jewish.
And what the crap does that have to do with any misdeeds he was credited with.
My apologies. I edited my comment.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
NathanAllen said:I didn't state once I was upset. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way. College sports is a point of enjoyment to me which is why I spend time covering Cal. I was simply trying to give some context around the Missouri and Cuonzo Martin situation.bearister said:
"Now go ahead and rip all this apart!"
So now you are telling me you didn't really mean that? I didn't rip you apart anyway. Lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo yet you singled out some of my comments so I gave the reasoning behind them. You then get upset that I disagree with you and go to the personal level and chalk up my take as "sour grapes." I never characterized your take with any insulting terms.
I've just never understood why "lots of people are pi$$ed at Cuonzo" as you stated, which is also what I consider sour grapes. It's been three years and two coaches since Cuonzo was on the sideline in Berkeley. Why is this something people still care about?
Cal just had arguably its best win of the season against a rival school and Cuonzo Martin is still a topic of discussion?
The topic started the day before the game with furd. The very first post after the victory against furd was an essay by you defending the guy. You are the main reason this is a topic of discussion after the victory. You shouldn't be surprised.
I think Nathan was reacting to isolated, but 'loud' opinions of Martin.Big C said:
Nathan, thanks for a great and knowledgeable post. Personally, I had no problems with Cuonzo Martin's departure. While he did not prove to be the greatest on-court coach here, and was also not a very strategic recruiter, he always had my respect. Good for him for landing a higher paying job, near his home area. I have always wished him well.
I actually think Big C's portrayal is a more accurate reflection of the majority opinion on Cuonzo - both here on BI and in personal interaction with the fanbase. I would add two items:
1. His coaching/prep is unbalanced in that some more time spent on offense at the expense of defense would probably have meant better overall results.
2. His end of tenure behavior - primarily at the NIT game - was unprofessional and inexcusable. That really hurt his credibility. Many fans were lost during that 40 minutes.
are his sets on offense any better? they were horrible at Cal.
I agree that his coaching/prep was unbalanced, or it sure looked that way. And most of his Cal players seemed to improve on defense, but not so much on offense. For me Cuonzo's offensive strategy was summed up in two of his quotes. First was in year one, where he often said that his players needed to "take it to the rim", which resulted in a lot of one on one play, with trying to get his players to be more physical, and neglecting much of the other aspects of offense. Second was in his 2nd year when Wallace went down with an injury late in the season. An interviewer asked him how much he would miss Wallace, and he said he would miss Wallace a lot. He said he might be or was the only player in the PAC12, "who could make a play from anywhere on the basketball court" That is also one on one play, especially when the player starts with a defensive rebound or a turnover all the way at the opposite end of the floor, and then the player drives coast to coast and takes it to the rim. Basketball today is played with much more teamwork on defense, and less teamwork on offense, and Cuonzo was the epitome of that, IMO.BeachedBear said:I think Nathan was reacting to isolated, but 'loud' opinions of Martin.Big C said:
Nathan, thanks for a great and knowledgeable post. Personally, I had no problems with Cuonzo Martin's departure. While he did not prove to be the greatest on-court coach here, and was also not a very strategic recruiter, he always had my respect. Good for him for landing a higher paying job, near his home area. I have always wished him well.
I actually think Big C's portrayal is a more accurate reflection of the majority opinion on Cuonzo - both here on BI and in personal interaction with the fanbase. I would add two items:
1. His coaching/prep is unbalanced in that some more time spent on offense at the expense of defense would probably have meant better overall results.
2. His end of tenure behavior - primarily at the NIT game - was unprofessional and inexcusable. That really hurt his credibility. Many fans were lost during that 40 minutes.
His behavior at the NIT game, I've never seen demonstrated that way by any coach at Cal before, and I hope I don't see it again. That certainly does not help to build character in his players who came to play in that game.
Sets? I think I missed them.philbert said:
are his sets on offense any better? they were horrible at Cal.
Cuonzo coaching career analysis after leaving Cal and prior to starting as HC at Missouri*:
Mizzou's Cuonzo Martin can be a great coach; time for him to show it | Sporting News
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/ncaa-basketball/news/cuonzo-martin-missouri-basketball-coach-sec-tennessee-cal-missouri-state-ncaa-tournament/1uyy1znr3lijh1spdxwdcmjd6h
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/ncaa-basketball/news/cuonzo-martin-missouri-basketball-coach-sec-tennessee-cal-missouri-state-ncaa-tournament/1uyy1znr3lijh1spdxwdcmjd6h
*You can update this analysis with the following: His conference record at Missouri to date is 16 wins; 27 losses.
Verdict ?
Mizzou's Cuonzo Martin can be a great coach; time for him to show it | Sporting News
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/ncaa-basketball/news/cuonzo-martin-missouri-basketball-coach-sec-tennessee-cal-missouri-state-ncaa-tournament/1uyy1znr3lijh1spdxwdcmjd6h
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/ncaa-basketball/news/cuonzo-martin-missouri-basketball-coach-sec-tennessee-cal-missouri-state-ncaa-tournament/1uyy1znr3lijh1spdxwdcmjd6h
*You can update this analysis with the following: His conference record at Missouri to date is 16 wins; 27 losses.
Verdict ?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Featured Stories
See All
Bears Get Great Reviews from Big Game Visitors
by Jim McGill
Bears Hammer Mercyhurst, 81-55.
by Jim McGill
Ultimate Insider Podcast E100: Stanford Wrap-up, SMU Preview
by Mike Pawlawski
From the Other Sideline: Cal vs SMU Preview
by Jim McGill
Cal Takes Down Arizona
by Cal Athletics