How can Cal compete in the Pac-12?

9,469 Views | 56 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by wifeisafurd
SFCALBear72
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bearchamp said:

You can't really think Gottlieb was the quality of coach to establish a high quality program.
Yes, she was and she did. Plus, she was higher "quality" than your grammar in that sentence. Paid by the word here?

Apparently she was highly regarded by the NBA and by a successful men's coach from Michigan. She left on her own terms which is a "victory" over those of you on here who were constantly bad-mouthing her regardless of what she did.

Women's sports are hot right now with the WNBA getting large crowds and the USNWT winning the World Cup. If there was some way Cal Athletics could take some of that enthusiasm and put it into promoting Cal WBB, I think we might see an upswing in attendance and interest. I guess it all depends upon our non-conference home schedule to build momentum before conference play begins.
annarborbear
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The financials I have seen give revenue credit from the PAC12 Network only to football and men's basketball. That is because those are the sports that have substantial viewership. The ratings for all other sports are very small. They are on TV not because they draw a large audience, but because that is the model the PAC 12 Network has adopted. You do not see anywhere near as many non-revenue sports on the SEC and Big Ten Networks. They show a lot of football and men's basketball re-runs because that is what their paid viewers want to see.
bearchamp
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Check the history; I have spoken out about Gottlieb's inadequacies plenty.
annarborbear
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Given our low ticket prices, low ticket revenues, and relatively low attendance. I would try a totally different model. Give a free women's basketball season ticket to anyone who buys a football or men's basketball season ticket. Provide every Cal student with free attendance at all women's sports. Anyone under age 16 also gets in free. Provide interesting door prizes to any of those who actually show up. In other words, do whatever it takes to put bigger crowds in the seats, which will hopefully provide a more exciting atmosphere for recruiting.

I also like Clay's idea of adopting a style of play that would provide more opportunities for local players who are not quiet athletic enough for our previous style of play. Those local players often have local followings who would show up to watch them play at Cal. KC Waters is an example of a player that could have had a huge local following if we had had a system that could have utilized her particular talents, instead of reducing her to four years of towel-waving. If we could get something out of Chen, it might also attract our Asian student community.
GOLDEN
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Lone Star said:

annarborbear said:

Scott Rueck started off with walk-on try-outs in a dilapidated Gill Stadium. Oregon had plenty of Nike money before Kelly Graves showed up, but didn't do much until then. Clearly, you are making a facetious argument to provide some off-season entertainment. As has been said before, if you want to support Cal women's sports, buy a football season ticket. Football will continue to have to provide the financial subsidy for everything else.
....... OSU made an investment in their facilities (Gill) PRIOR TO Rueck starting there and made additional renovations just a few years AFTER he started. And this was BEFORE the program started to take off in 2014. ....




LOL, Cosmetic improvements. Recruits ain't going there because of Gill. If it was only that easy.
annarborbear
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I posted this on the men's forum after Fox showed his early emphasis on an international recruiting strategy.

International players: "I am attracted by Cal's world-wide academic reputation, its great cultural diversity, the beautiful campus and the wonderful weather".

US players: "Where is the dedicated practice facility, and have you talked recently with my agent?"
wbbilluminati
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SFCALBear72 said:

bearchamp said:

You can't really think Gottlieb was the quality of coach to establish a high quality program.
Yes, she was and she did. Plus, she was higher "quality" than your grammar in that sentence. Paid by the word here?

Apparently she was highly regarded by the NBA and by a successful men's coach from Michigan. She left on her own terms which is a "victory" over those of you on here who were constantly bad-mouthing her regardless of what she did.

Women's sports are hot right now with the WNBA getting large crowds and the USNWT winning the World Cup. If there was some way Cal Athletics could take some of that enthusiasm and put it into promoting Cal WBB, I think we might see an upswing in attendance and interest. I guess it all depends upon our non-conference home schedule to build momentum before conference play begins.
Incidentally I was in stitches the other day on the UConn board after reading a comment about the "celebrity" of being a WNBA player, to which another poster replied: "Celebrity? I thought it was witness protection..."

Unfortunately, there's some truth, as I recall reading that WNBA attendance took a noticeable dip last season.

I don't necessarily think the wind is suddenly at our back now that the women's World Cup is trending (which feels more like the cyclical popularity of so-called "Olympic sports"), but you're right that scheduling is an opportunity and it's great that LG jumped on the chance to bring UConn out to Haas (x2).

I think as far as WCBB coaching changes go, we're all at peace and have been relatively well behaved. At the end of the day, even Lindsay's biggest critics know she's always been a class act and likely are rooting for to excel at this trailblazing new NBA gig.
Lone Star
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bearchamp said:

Check the history; I have spoken out about Gottlieb's inadequacies plenty.
That's great. YOUR opinionated history versus the FACTS! You should do some research on coaching records in the PAC-12 over the past decade, it might wake you up to the truth. You are welcome to your opinion on Gottlieb but, over the past decade, she ranks in the top 3 coaches in the PAC-12 over that time in terms of winning percentage and NCAA appearances. Yes, that includes comparing to Rueck, Graves, and Turner-Thorne at ASU. (Yes, I purposely left Vandeveer out of this because everyone else is playing for second behind her).

DO SOME RESEARCH AND YOU OPINION "MIGHT" CHANGE.
Lone Star
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GOLDEN said:

Lone Star said:

annarborbear said:

Scott Rueck started off with walk-on try-outs in a dilapidated Gill Stadium. Oregon had plenty of Nike money before Kelly Graves showed up, but didn't do much until then. Clearly, you are making a facetious argument to provide some off-season entertainment. As has been said before, if you want to support Cal women's sports, buy a football season ticket. Football will continue to have to provide the financial subsidy for everything else.
....... OSU made an investment in their facilities (Gill) PRIOR TO Rueck starting there and made additional renovations just a few years AFTER he started. And this was BEFORE the program started to take off in 2014. ....




LOL, Cosmetic improvements. Recruits ain't going there because of Gill. If it was only that easy.
I would agree with you there. However, there are other program improvements (training facilities and training staff that make it stand out) that attract players to Corvallis. Isn't much else to do there.

Me personally, would love to be in the Bay Area where there is much more to do and the weather is more pleasant year round.
annarborbear
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Unfortunately, the LG trend lines in performance and recruiting were down over the past five seasons while others were rising. However, a mid-career mentorship with a great coach like Beilein is exactly what she needed, and she will be a better coach in the future.
ClayK
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Lindsay was 30-42 in her last four years in the Pac-12, and the cupboard is pretty much bare.

She obviously did some good things, but the strength of her tenure was early. Recently, the arrow has been pointing down ...

As for the NBA, to borrow a phrase, they've been doing a lot of virtue signalling lately by adding women to their bloated coaching staffs. It is unclear to me how much of this is real and how much is just PR. One NBA scout who's worked in the league for many years told me that it's pretty much window-dressing and the misogyny among the players (and some coaches) is substantial. That said, maybe one or two players will listen to a female coach, and given the NBA's resources, it's worth the investment if a couple players improve who wouldn't have otherwise.

But still, she's a quality person and a good addition to any organization -- and in fact, I think she'll be better as an assistant than as a head coach (which is true of a lot of people, including myself).
bearchamp
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Better jump on Annarborbear and ClayK for stating what has been obvious for some time. Gottlieb has not been good for a while. Maybe just the way for most coaches. Tedford was great in football for a few years, but a disaster in the last several years of his tenure. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Your argument is a case in point.
GATC
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ClayK said:

Lindsay was 30-42 in her last four years in the Pac-12, and the cupboard is pretty much bare.

She obviously did some good things, but the strength of her tenure was early. Recently, the arrow has been pointing down ...

As for the NBA, to borrow a phrase, they've been doing a lot of virtue signalling lately by adding women to their bloated coaching staffs. It is unclear to me how much of this is real and how much is just PR. One NBA scout who's worked in the league for many years told me that it's pretty much window-dressing and the misogyny among the players (and some coaches) is substantial. That said, maybe one or two players will listen to a female coach, and given the NBA's resources, it's worth the investment if a couple players improve who wouldn't have otherwise.

But still, she's a quality person and a good addition to any organization -- and in fact, I think she'll be better as an assistant than as a head coach (which is true of a lot of people, including myself).
Excellent post. Agree with all the key points.
gipsonke
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Coach Lindsey was a great coach in a lot of areas (recruiting, etc), except one. In my opinion she was NOT a good GAME coach, from the sidelines. Her maddening habit of "clapping UP" her players even when flat out bonehead decisions were made, was annoying.

There was a study done that analyzed social cooperation (think "team work"). The conclusion: "Cooperation decays without punishment"

Now obviously I'm NOT talking about ABUSING anyone!

Now that that's out of the way, what's my point?

My point is that there are MANY facets to being a great coach, but when a player is having low energy, not focussed and or is just not having a good day, a great coach understands when it's time to motivate vs sternly correct.

"Cheering on" and giving positive reinforcement from the sideline continuously doesn't make sense to me.
annarborbear
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I always did like this story about Bobby Knight:

Coach sends player to bench.
Bench sends message to butt.
Butt sends message to mouth.
Mouth sends message to coach.
"Yes, coach, I am now ready to follow the game plan".
gipsonke
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Nuff said.
Lone Star
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annarborbear said:

I always did like this story about Bobby Knight:

Coach sends player to bench.
Bench sends message to butt.
Butt sends message to mouth.
Mouth sends message to coach.
"Yes, coach, I am now ready to follow the game plan".
Bobby was a great one, until he lost it one day in practice.....

He is the reason Indiana was so good and the players that wanted to be challenged went there. Nowadays, "most" of these young players want to be coddled and stroked. They will find out that doesn't happen in the real world when their basketball careers are over.

The better players accept being coached at a higher level of intensity and know if they don't perform, they will be on the bench.
wifeisafurd
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bobbk said:

Last year each Pac 12 school received $30M. Lets say WBB viewership accounted for 5% of all views. That's $1.5 million in revenue. What ever it is should be counted as revenue

However given The ticket sale income above that's $4 per ticket. There seems to be opportunity with ticket pricing

Good approach. Let me try a deeper cut. What matters, in terms of TV cash flow back to the schools, is advertising revenue. The ads for football and mens basketball games are completely different than the same old ads for everything else. One major exception I noticed last year, is a few Thursday night games between top women's basketball teams (the Ford game where they got destroyed by Oregon last year as an example). But the reality is almost all of women's basketball and everyone not football and men's basketball is filler on the Pac 12 network, and doesn't really draw much ad revenue.

There is very little Pac programming in Fox or ESPN that is not football or men's basketball.

Just to throw out some figures, the Pac 12 last year provided around $353 million in distributions. Which is slightly less than $30 million per school as noted in the above post. That does not mean the distributions came from viewership or TV.

The revenues for the Pac 12 are around $496 million, from which you subtract off Pac 12 expenses like salaries and overhead, and you end up with the $353 million in distributions. One could argue that $140 Million Pac 12 expense seems extravagant, but that is another discussion.

The problem with the $498 million number is that only $339 million acmes from TV. A substantial portion of the remaining revenues comes from football bowl money and men's basketball post-season play. Until recently the women's NCAA lost money.

Looking straight at the money a program brings to the table, even allocating TV money, may not be the way the go. Women's basketball is gaining popularity and so if you want to be well positioned for the future you have to invest the program now even if that means running deficits.

But if you this is a look into the money that currently goes into the business of Division I college athletics, it's a look at the sizable gender coaching pay gaps (I get that UConn's may be different but look at the revenue they produce) and lower investment in women's programs that occurs at athletic institutions throughout the country. Women's basketball at Cal has been the biggest financial loser, that even allocating some unrealistic number of the conference cash distribution to the program won't make much of a dent in the deficit. But the assumption is that investing in women's basketball program is good for the future, and to the extent important donors matter, is supported by certain important donors. Otherwise, why not make major cuts to the program?

annarborbear
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The problem with Title IX is that it mandates equality in everything except in the obligation to bring in sufficient revenues to cover expenses. One suggestion has been to exempt football and men's basketball from the Title IX student participation calculations. Universities would then be required to have equality of opportunity in the remaining sports that require subsidization. The dream has been that women's sports will eventually become popular enough to bring in the same tv ratings and ticket prices as football and men's basketball. But it just hasn't been happening.

By the way, there is simply no alternative to providing a large subsidy for any women's basketball program in the PAC12. At Oregon, where attendance has really taken off, they still took in only $375,000 in ticket revenues last year versus expenses of $3.2 million. The best that we can hope for is that we get a winning program once again for the investment, and that we don't pay a premium salary to a coach without some performance accountability.
Lone Star
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Actually, it appears that you can blame football for the reason the athletic budget is so tight.

https://deadspin.com/the-desperate-future-of-cal-athletics-is-here-1797944572


A boondoggled, over paid for football stadium renovation will leave the University Athletic department in the red for a long time.
annarborbear
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Lone Star said:

Actually, it appears that you can blame football for the reason the athletic budget is so tight.

https://deadspin.com/the-desperate-future-of-cal-athletics-is-here-1797944572


A boondoggled, over paid for football stadium renovation will leave the University Athletic department in the red for a long time.
That is true. Ironically, Stanford did just the opposite. They tore down their old stadium and replaced it with a new lower-cost stripped-down version. We should have replaced ours with a similar lower-cost stadium on university owned land out in Richmond.
ClayK
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Just remember that every official cost/benefit analysis is basically a lie ...

If indeed 75% (or whatever the claim is) of all colleges lost money on athletics, then there would be a slow but steady succession of schools dropping out of Division I. Instead, the flow goes the other way, with more schools wanting to join their "money-losing" brethren.

Clearly, by their actions, university administrators and regents have demonstrated that athletics are the source of a positive cash flow, and one reason the books are cooked in this manner to avoid having to acknowledge that the men's basketball and football players deserve compensation over and above their scholarships. (As I've mentioned, let the market decide. If schools were allowed to pay players what the market said they were worth, then you'd see a lot of college quarterbacks driving a lot nicer cars.)

That's an excellent point about the hope that women's sports could generate revenue, given time, but they can't (in part because female students have no interest in attending). So, as suggested, separate men's basketball and football, pay those players only what the market suggests, and leave everything else pretty much the same.

And even then, with "bigger" red numbers, college sports will still be a winner for the bottom line.

wifeisafurd
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Lone Star said:

Actually, it appears that you can blame football for the reason the athletic budget is so tight.

https://deadspin.com/the-desperate-future-of-cal-athletics-is-here-1797944572


A boondoggled, over paid for football stadium renovation will leave the University Athletic department in the red for a long time.
The irony of course is the majority of the debt has been moved to campus and off the books of the Athletic Department, so the deadspin article is dead on arrival to this thread.
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