LMK5 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

---

"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

Why all the gray areas?

---

It was a stock Red/Blue America map. I could have chosen any number of them.
Just go with it.

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

---

"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

What do you want for our country? That should define what you advocate instead being led by a leash by those who hate, and empowering them by primarily reacting to them.

---

Right, well, I think my point was that a lot of people DON'T want immigration in this country.
Because they are racist and culturally closed minded. AND, I was adding, because they don't see the economic benefits of immigration.

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation? Is what is happening now in the south with kids being pushed across dangerous territory led by the cartel in the hopes of cutting in line the right situation? You and I agree that the brain drain that resulted from shutting down immigration the last four year not only from the south but from the East and Europe is a disaster and violates who we are as a nation of immigrants, but what do you want? It cannot just be a reaction to what you hate. Move past Trump since Biden is now president. What do you want from this administration?

calbear93 said:

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

If we are honest, immigration has nothing to do with that.

Quote:

---

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation?

---

My ideal situation is that we need to seriously deal with the immigration issue as a Mexico problem, rather than a Mexicans problem.

SFBear92 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

If we are honest, immigration has nothing to do with that.

Quote:

---

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation?

---

My ideal situation is that we need to seriously deal with the immigration issue as a Mexico problem, rather than a Mexicans problem.

---

On the first point, I didn't write that immigration comes from that. I wrote the current divisive positions on immigration has a history derived from those four factions in America.

Absolutely right on your last sentence. I would add that this goes beyond Mexico and includes Honduras. But we also cannot be sole provider of solutions and we need to provide the countries with incentive to come to the table. Trump was an ******* but he did force these other countries to start working to help address the mass migration instead of treating people leaving their country to come illegally to USA as only an American problem.

calbear93 said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

If we are honest, immigration has nothing to do with that.

Quote:

---

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation?

---

My ideal situation is that we need to seriously deal with the immigration issue as a Mexico problem, rather than a Mexicans problem.

---

Absolutely right on your last sentence.

---

The reason we don't have an immigration issue on our northern border is that Canada is a nice place. The reason we have an immigration issue on our southern border is because outside of some tourist areas, Mexico is a place most people wouldn't want to live.

There are a lot of reasons why I think we avoid dealing with the Mexico problem, but it needs to be addressed.

Quote:

---

Locus has moved further South. Guatemala, Honduras Salvador are the worst countries in the world. There are reasons we are not overrun by Costa Rican's

From Pew
1) U.S. unauthorized immigrant total declines from Mexico, but rises from other nations. The number of Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. illegally has declined by 2 million since 2007. In 2017, 4.9 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down from a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. Mexicans now make up fewer than half of the nation's 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants (47% in 2017).

2 At the U.S.-Mexico border, there have been more apprehensions of non-Mexicans than Mexicans every year since fiscal 2016

Mexican unauthorized immigrant adults are more likely to be long-term residents of the U.S. As of 2017, 83% had lived in the U.S. for more than 10 years, while only 8% had been in the country for five years or less. By comparison, 51% of unauthorized immigrant adults from countries other than Mexico had lived in the U.S. a decade or more as of 2017, while 30% had lived in the U.S. for five years or less.

---

It's not a question of which nations are the worst. It's a question of borders.

U.S. has a very large land border with Mexico, a country nobody wants to live in. Those other countries are south of Mexico. If Mexico was substantially better than Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador, those people would go to Mexico, rather than going through Mexico and straight on up to the United States.

Additionally, the southern border of Mexico would be far easier to defend than the southern border of the United States if you really wanted to keep people from going north by land.

All of this requires that Mexico be a better safer place to live. There are a whole lot of policies that we could work on diplomatically to improve the situation. And if, when it comes right down to it, Mexico wants to keep being a corrupt country with even more extreme wealth inequality, crime, and corruption issues than the United States, then you start making it clear they don't have a choice in the matter.

Looking at it as an immigrant problem is a backasswards way of looking at the situation. People are looking for a better life. If the problem is that everything in the Western Hemisphere south of the United States sucks, then maybe we ought to spend a little more of our time investing in Central and South America and a lot less in the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Africa.

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

---

"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

What do you want for our country? That should define what you advocate instead being led by a leash by those who hate, and empowering them by primarily reacting to them.

---

Right, well, I think my point was that a lot of people DON'T want immigration in this country.
Because they are racist and culturally closed minded. AND, I was adding, because they don't see the economic benefits of immigration.

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction,

---

Huh??????

calbear93 said:

---

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation? Is what is happening now in the south with kids being pushed across dangerous territory led by the cartel in the hopes of cutting in line the right situation? You and I agree that the brain drain that resulted from shutting down immigration the last four year not only from the south but from the East and Europe is a disaster and violates who we are as a nation of immigrants, but what do you want? It cannot just be a reaction to what you hate. Move past Trump since Biden is now president. What do you want from this administration?

---

Great pivot!

So, being no expert on this issue I will couch my following comments as saying I leave room to edit and such.

First thing I want is for people who have grown up here (Dreamers) to get their citizenship. When I was in middle school, I learned that if you were in the US for 14 years (or something like that) you were a citizen. I think that goes way back. Is it a bit of a joke to suggest that someone hide out for that long and then be rewarded? Yes. But those kids only/mainly know America now, and it's wrong to keep them as permanent second class citizens.

I agree that you cannot open up unlimited inflow. We'd be at 400M, 500M, in population fast, and I don't want that fast of social change. How to control the flow? I don't know - but chants of Build That Wall were irresponsible. There are MANY issues to consider:
* private property.
* wildlife migration.
* cost to construct and maintain/patrol a system of stopping flow.
* etc.

The "Build the wall" crowd ignored all such considerations and it simply became a racist trope. They could have been yelling "F--k Mexico" and I would have understood it just the same.

Shoot - if the Right Wing wants to have such a large military force, take those damn people off bases in timbuktu and put them down on the border until we figure out some sort of solution to the walk-across population.

I'm sure we could imagine a ton of solutions. My "hate" as you called it is pretty much simply Trump et al's lack of willingness to have that discussion. They want to boil it down to raw xenophobic emotion, and that blocks the conversation. Ending that dynamic is what I want. Having the rationale discussion about it is what I want.

Republican officials could very easily start those discussions up (again). But they don't want to, because they are afraid they'll never win another election.

calbear93 said:

---

Trump was an *******

---

Thank you for saying that. It goes a long way toward establishing credibility.
Seriously. Thank you. That's the very first step for me.
It's like, "Wait, we can agree on basic truths, right? The sky is blue. There are 24 hours in a day. And Trump is an *******."
If we can agree on those basic facts, then the conversation can continue.
If not, there is no point in carrying on.
Thank you.

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

---

"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

What do you want for our country? That should define what you advocate instead being led by a leash by those who hate, and empowering them by primarily reacting to them.

---

Right, well, I think my point was that a lot of people DON'T want immigration in this country.
Because they are racist and culturally closed minded. AND, I was adding, because they don't see the economic benefits of immigration.

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Trump was an *******

---

Thank you for saying that. It goes a long way toward establishing credibility.
Seriously. Thank you. That's the very first step for me.
It's like, "Wait, we can agree on basic truths, right? The sky is blue. There are 24 hours in a day. And Trump is an *******."
If we can agree on those basic facts, then the conversation can continue.
If not, there is no point in carrying on.
Thank you.

---

Not sure what you're getting at. I think you need to tone it down a bit. I have been posting even before this was bearinsider and, unless you are new here, you seem pretty foolish to indicate me saying Trump is an ******* I is some breakthrough. I have been against Trump ever since the racist birther bull**** and have never even implied he is anything but an *******. Quite frankly, other than Trump related topics, don't remember you posting before. I voted for Clinton and Biden so what the **** are you going on about? Based on what you have been posting recently, you may be the one that needs to establish a bit of credibility. Just tone it down a bit and get over Trump. He is a non factor like Clinton and the only reason he has any influence is that people who were addicted to him like crack on both sides cannot move on.

concordtom said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation? Is what is happening now in the south with kids being pushed across dangerous territory led by the cartel in the hopes of cutting in line the right situation? You and I agree that the brain drain that resulted from shutting down immigration the last four year not only from the south but from the East and Europe is a disaster and violates who we are as a nation of immigrants, but what do you want? It cannot just be a reaction to what you hate. Move past Trump since Biden is now president. What do you want from this administration?

---

Great pivot!

So, being no expert on this issue I will couch my following comments as saying I leave room to edit and such.

First thing I want is for people who have grown up here (Dreamers) to get their citizenship. When I was in middle school, I learned that if you were in the US for 14 years (or something like that) you were a citizen. I think that goes way back. Is it a bit of a joke to suggest that someone hide out for that long and then be rewarded? Yes. But those kids only/mainly know America now, and it's wrong to keep them as permanent second class citizens.

I agree that you cannot open up unlimited inflow. We'd be at 400M, 500M, in population fast, and I don't want that fast of social change. How to control the flow? I don't know - but chants of Build That Wall were irresponsible. There are MANY issues to consider:
* private property.
* wildlife migration.
* cost to construct and maintain/patrol a system of stopping flow.
* etc.

The "Build the wall" crowd ignored all such considerations and it simply became a racist trope. They could have been yelling "F--k Mexico" and I would have understood it just the same.

Shoot - if the Right Wing wants to have such a large military force, take those damn people off bases in timbuktu and put them down on the border until we figure out some sort of solution to the walk-across population.

I'm sure we could imagine a ton of solutions. My "hate" as you called it is pretty much simply Trump et al's lack of willingness to have that discussion. They want to boil it down to raw xenophobic emotion, and that blocks the conversation. Ending that dynamic is what I want. Having the rationale discussion about it is what I want.

Republican officials could very easily start those discussions up (again). But they don't want to, because they are afraid they'll never win another election.

---

Dreamer is not a solution to the migrant issue. Not sure anyone here is against it but that is not slowing down the inflow.

Using the armed military in our state borders to stop children crossing? Having people come from Honduras by saying we will be compassionate and process your asylum request and then stop them with the military when they get here? That does not sound like good policy. This whole issue was thinking just being against Trump instead of waiting until the cabinet was appointed to say things that will have severe consequences. This has the potential to damage Biden despite some really good progress he is making with vaccination. We need the allies to enforce their borders by using diplomacy and economic threats, have them assist us in processing asylum request from their country and have them help us punish those here and outside paying the drug cartel to smuggle kids dangerously to break our laws.

And I didn't use the word "hate" to describe you but describe who was dictating your thought and conversation. If all you are doing is responding in kind with the same idiocy as those who are using immigration issue to promote their racist views, you are part of problem. With the dilemma involving actual human beings who are trying to better their lives vs the utter chaos that would result for us if we did this in a knee-jerk woke manner (get rid of immigration laws like getting rid of the police), this could be a disaster. We need to think about this beyond posting pictures of KKK and then proposing we use the military (what you propose in using armed military frankly seems even more offensive than a wall, which was plenty offensive). And this will be a multi-country effort that will probably involve more open trade that allows countries in the south to have a better economy.

concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

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"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

What do you want for our country? That should define what you advocate instead being led by a leash by those who hate, and empowering them by primarily reacting to them.

---

Right, well, I think my point was that a lot of people DON'T want immigration in this country.
Because they are racist and culturally closed minded. AND, I was adding, because they don't see the economic benefits of immigration.

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction,

---

Huh??????

---

It's like you have no sense of history or where the parties stood on issues. Are you not aware of the anti-immigration stance taken by the blue collar Democrats in the 80s and 90s, especially in the rust belt manufacturing sector and their false belief that immigration was the cause of decline in manufacturing? Are you not aware that many of these people like Minot you view as RWNJ who may have voted for Obama became the biggest Trump fans? You think anti-immigration and trade wars and tariffs were traditional business oriented Republican platforms (more the racist segment but not the free trade / business segment).

https://www.npr.org/2013/02/05/171175054/how-the-labor-movement-did-a-180-on-immigration

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/19/694804917/democrats-used-to-talk-about-criminal-immigrants-so-what-changed-the-party

Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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Quote:

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Locus has moved further South. Guatemala, Honduras Salvador are the worst countries in the world. There are reasons we are not overrun by Costa Rican's

From Pew
1) U.S. unauthorized immigrant total declines from Mexico, but rises from other nations. The number of Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. illegally has declined by 2 million since 2007. In 2017, 4.9 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down from a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. Mexicans now make up fewer than half of the nation's 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants (47% in 2017).

2 At the U.S.-Mexico border, there have been more apprehensions of non-Mexicans than Mexicans every year since fiscal 2016

Mexican unauthorized immigrant adults are more likely to be long-term residents of the U.S. As of 2017, 83% had lived in the U.S. for more than 10 years, while only 8% had been in the country for five years or less. By comparison, 51% of unauthorized immigrant adults from countries other than Mexico had lived in the U.S. a decade or more as of 2017, while 30% had lived in the U.S. for five years or less.

---

It's not a question of which nations are the worst. It's a question of borders.

U.S. has a very large land border with Mexico, a country nobody wants to live in. Those other countries are south of Mexico. If Mexico was substantially better than Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador, those people would go to Mexico, rather than going through Mexico and straight on up to the United States.

Additionally, the southern border of Mexico would be far easier to defend than the southern border of the United States if you really wanted to keep people from going north by land.

All of this requires that Mexico be a better safer place to live. There are a whole lot of policies that we could work on diplomatically to improve the situation. And if, when it comes right down to it, Mexico wants to keep being a corrupt country with even more extreme wealth inequality, crime, and corruption issues than the United States, then you start making it clear they don't have a choice in the matter.

Looking at it as an immigrant problem is a backasswards way of looking at the situation. People are looking for a better life. If the problem is that everything in the Western Hemisphere south of the United States sucks, then maybe we ought to spend a little more of our time investing in Central and South America and a lot less in the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Africa.

---

I'd agree that the US owns a lot of wreckage in Central America and there should be an economic union with the goal of fixing it. This whole drama is one of fleeing horrible regimes on the basis of amnesty and children. The roots of this are in international and US laws concerning asylum . As long as these laws exist people will use their feet and they are interested in reaching the golden mountain not some way station.

---

Well said.

And many of these oppressive regimes have been U.S. backed.

SFBear92 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

---

concordtom said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

---

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


It's not all rosy though:

Quote:

---

"I see more potential for lingering problems from outmigration, poor housing affordability and an inability to quickly ramp up the state's residential construction this year," he said.

---

So what does everyone think?

---

I'm pro immigration.
These people work, hard, cheap.
Boost to the economy.
Viva Mexico!

I mean, if the #1 driver of GDP is consumption, and the #1 driver of consumption is population, and if the indigenous population ain't f***'ing enough, then you've got to import your consumption, right???!!!!

Anything below 2.1 kids per woman is a declining population.
This is the long term chart of births per 1000 women.


And the middle graph shows the US now below 1.8 per woman.



Viva Mexico! I'm Pro Growth!

Build the wall = Kill our economy!

---

I think this is at best an incomplete picture of immigration, and we are not in favor of immigration just so we have people to exploit to do our laundry or pick our fruit or supplement our birthrate. We want immigration because we are under no delusion that we have a monopoly on brains and talent. We want the world's best and brightest bringing their American dream to this country, helping us innovate, and build their future in this country.

Both the left and the right get so ****ing lost in illegal immigration and think that immigration is about allowing poor people who are crossing the border illegally. And so we have two extremes, either separate families and treat them as violent criminals or have no borders and allow massive illegal immigration and allow people who break the laws to cut in front of people who have been waiting legally. Because, you know, we all love others who cut in front of us with reasons why their cause is more important than ours. When we have been waiting patiently in line for hours, we just love it when others just come late and cut in line in the front.

In order to have robust immigration, we should enforce our immigration laws, have borders, and make it easier for people to immigrate legally. We should work with our allies in the south to have a process for people to apply for asylum before they enter into the country instead of thinking that encouraging cartels to exploit people by not enforcing our laws is somehow compassionate.

We have lost our ****ing mind.

---

Of course it was not a complete picture. It was a basic statement about immigration actually fueling the GDP growth that everyone relies on for economic modeling.

I think you made some really good points. Sadly, I don't foresee any orderly immigration on the horizon. For one thing, Trump turned the issue into a racial/culturally divisive issue.... No. He exacerbated it.. People are more "emotional" about "build the wall" concept that ever, by far. Because of his rhetoric, we have a huge swath of this country who will NEVER accept immigration from the southern border. Because they now think more than ever that they are rapists, criminals, they bring drugs and diseases and suck money off social programs.

If white's attitudes towards black America wasn't bad enough, just add attitudes toward latinos.
Fortunately, I speak spanish!!

---

I think if you want to abate the divisiveness, blaming just one race or not pushing back on the other side that borders (no pun intended) on eliminating immigration laws probably don't help. We are a country of law and order but also a country of immigrants. They are not mutually exclusive. And no one deserves to cut in front of someone else by breaking the law but instead we should change the law and resource allocation to make it more aligned with the better spirit of this country while also enforcing the laws and creating deterrence for breaking it or allowing drug cartels to exploit the most needy.

---

Those are nice things you've written. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you.
Here - I've found a map to show you where you can find those people:

---

What do you want for our country? That should define what you advocate instead being led by a leash by those who hate, and empowering them by primarily reacting to them.

---

Right, well, I think my point was that a lot of people DON'T want immigration in this country.
Because they are racist and culturally closed minded. AND, I was adding, because they don't see the economic benefits of immigration.

---

If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

There is NO DOUBT that the Republicans began ramping up the other-than-white rhetoric. Trump did it with his birtherism, and he wasn't even a Republican. The other-than-white mindset affected people of all shades. And then in 2015, Trump expanded it big time with his presidential race announcement speech (they are rapists, they are bringing in drugs - you know the speech). All that got lots of traction, and it turned quickly into Build The Wall.

It gives a certain faction in this country something to rally around.
It's racism, pure and simple. Cloaked in "economics" like they are going to take our healthcare, not pay taxes, etc. We saw the same issues debated in CA in the 90's.

calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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Trump was an *******

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Thank you for saying that. It goes a long way toward establishing credibility.
Seriously. Thank you. That's the very first step for me.
It's like, "Wait, we can agree on basic truths, right? The sky is blue. There are 24 hours in a day. And Trump is an *******."
If we can agree on those basic facts, then the conversation can continue.
If not, there is no point in carrying on.
Thank you.

---

Not sure what you're getting at. I think you need to tone it down a bit. I have been posting even before this was bearinsider and, unless you are new here, you seem pretty foolish to indicate me saying Trump is an ******* I is some breakthrough. I have been against Trump ever since the racist birther bull**** and have never even implied he is anything but an *******. Quite frankly, other than Trump related topics, don't remember you posting before. I voted for Clinton and Biden so what the **** are you going on about? Based on what you have been posting recently, you may be the one that needs to establish a bit of credibility. Just tone it down a bit and get over Trump. He is a non factor like Clinton and the only reason he has any influence is that people who were addicted to him like crack on both sides cannot move on.

---

If you look at my profile, you'll see that most of my posts have been on the hoops board. I've been here way too long!
Seems I'm getting you confused with Bear92. Sorry.

We are simpatico in our despising Trump!

Just apply my post to any person who I previously thought was pro-trump and it fits. Misdirected to you.

concordtom said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

---

Way bro.

People's attitudes toward immigration far precede Obama's administration and you're a fool to think that Obama is the source of that attitude, especially when his administration deported more immigrants than any other.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

The border issue goes back much further than that.

calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation? Is what is happening now in the south with kids being pushed across dangerous territory led by the cartel in the hopes of cutting in line the right situation? You and I agree that the brain drain that resulted from shutting down immigration the last four year not only from the south but from the East and Europe is a disaster and violates who we are as a nation of immigrants, but what do you want? It cannot just be a reaction to what you hate. Move past Trump since Biden is now president. What do you want from this administration?

---

Great pivot!

So, being no expert on this issue I will couch my following comments as saying I leave room to edit and such.

First thing I want is for people who have grown up here (Dreamers) to get their citizenship. When I was in middle school, I learned that if you were in the US for 14 years (or something like that) you were a citizen. I think that goes way back. Is it a bit of a joke to suggest that someone hide out for that long and then be rewarded? Yes. But those kids only/mainly know America now, and it's wrong to keep them as permanent second class citizens.

I agree that you cannot open up unlimited inflow. We'd be at 400M, 500M, in population fast, and I don't want that fast of social change. How to control the flow? I don't know - but chants of Build That Wall were irresponsible. There are MANY issues to consider:
* private property.
* wildlife migration.
* cost to construct and maintain/patrol a system of stopping flow.
* etc.

The "Build the wall" crowd ignored all such considerations and it simply became a racist trope. They could have been yelling "F--k Mexico" and I would have understood it just the same.

Shoot - if the Right Wing wants to have such a large military force, take those damn people off bases in timbuktu and put them down on the border until we figure out some sort of solution to the walk-across population.

I'm sure we could imagine a ton of solutions. My "hate" as you called it is pretty much simply Trump et al's lack of willingness to have that discussion. They want to boil it down to raw xenophobic emotion, and that blocks the conversation. Ending that dynamic is what I want. Having the rationale discussion about it is what I want.

Republican officials could very easily start those discussions up (again). But they don't want to, because they are afraid they'll never win another election.

---

Dreamer is not a solution to the migrant issue. Not sure anyone here is against it but that is not slowing down the inflow.

---

AGREED that is doesn't fix the future/ongoing inflow. But it DOES need to be dealt with for those in the past. I think folks need to accept that there's going to be a certain amount of uncontrolled immigration, and when that happens, you just can't keep people locked in a box forever - particularly when they grew up here.

SFBear92 said:

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concordtom said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

---

Way bro.

People's attitudes toward immigration far precede Obama's administration and you're a fool to think that Obama is the source of that attitude, especially when his administration deported more immigrants than any other.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

The border issue goes back much further than that.

---

Okay, so I'm agreeing with you that the issue goes back many years. Cesar Chavez? Hello?
Yes, I realize that Obama deported a lot.
I wasn't saying that Obama was the source of the anti-immigration movement - I was saying that Trump heightened it to the fore.

concordtom said:

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SFBear92 said:

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concordtom said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

---

Way bro.

People's attitudes toward immigration far precede Obama's administration and you're a fool to think that Obama is the source of that attitude, especially when his administration deported more immigrants than any other.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

The border issue goes back much further than that.

---

Okay, so I'm agreeing with you that the issue goes back many years. Cesar Chavez? Hello?
Yes, I realize that Obama deported a lot.
I wasn't saying that Obama was the source of the anti-immigration movement - I was saying that Trump heightened it to the fore.

---

Blaming immigration has been our history as long as immigration has existed. Whether it was blaming Irish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, etc., this has always been a battle between each party and across party (whether it was social liberals vs. labor workers on the left or business vs. social conservatives on the right), you would be a fool to think that the last four years have been the height of anti-immigration movement. Americans really could benefit from studying history a bit more.

If you look at Trump's core base (and I am not referring to the business folks who had hoped to hold their nose and ride his coattail to achieve less regulation and more business friendly measures and jumped off when he tilted more to the core base with trade wars and isolationism), his base consolidation was centered on isolationism with some overflow from people who were more center-right feeling tired of some far left woke craziness (just like some people who were center-left moved more to the far left due to the craziness of the far right). Those people who were for isolationism were (i) segment of the blue-collar workers in displaced manufacturing segments who, like they did in the '80s and '90s, blamed immigration for lack of high paying manual labor, (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon who believed that we had to shut down globalism because we were giving away the store, and (iii) straight out racists like Stephen Miller. Trump didn't heightened anti-immigration feelings - that has always been there - he just played to his base like the con man that he is.

calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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SFBear92 said:

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concordtom said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

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I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

---

Way bro.

People's attitudes toward immigration far precede Obama's administration and you're a fool to think that Obama is the source of that attitude, especially when his administration deported more immigrants than any other.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

The border issue goes back much further than that.

---

Okay, so I'm agreeing with you that the issue goes back many years. Cesar Chavez? Hello?
Yes, I realize that Obama deported a lot.
I wasn't saying that Obama was the source of the anti-immigration movement - I was saying that Trump heightened it to the fore.

---

Blaming immigration has been our history as long as immigration has existed. Whether it was blaming Irish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, etc., this has always been a battle between each party and across party (whether it was social liberals vs. labor workers on the left or business vs. social conservatives on the right), you would be a fool to think that the last four years have been the height of anti-immigration movement. Americans really could benefit from studying history a bit more.

If you look at Trump's core base (and I am not referring to the business folks who had hoped to hold their nose and ride his coattail to achieve less regulation and more business friendly measures and jumped off when he tilted more to the core base with trade wars and isolationism), his base consolidation was centered on isolationism with some overflow from people who were more center-right feeling tired of some far left woke craziness (just like some people who were center-left moved more to the far left due to the craziness of the far right). Those people who were for isolationism were (i) segment of the blue-collar workers in displaced manufacturing segments who, like they did in the '80s and '90s, blamed immigration for lack of high paying manual labor, (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon who believed that we had to shut down globalism because we were giving away the store, and (iii) straight out racists like Stephen Miller. Trump didn't heightened anti-immigration feelings - that has always been there - he just played to his base like the con man that he is.

---

Okay, so, fine - I agree with you.
But Trump's racism and anti-immigration was overt and disgusting.

And, the main point I'd like to make - we need to DO SOMETHING about it, not just say "this has always been a part of America - why don't you study history more".

I'm simply calling the anti-immigration people out on it, especially the overtly gross ones.

concordtom said:

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calbear93 said:

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concordtom said:

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SFBear92 said:

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concordtom said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

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I think there was a huge subconscious reaction in this country to Obama - a black man in the white house. I think immigrants are paying the price.

---

Your theory is as ridiculous as the union theory. And the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants.

---

No way, bro!
That theory is rock solid!

---

Way bro.

People's attitudes toward immigration far precede Obama's administration and you're a fool to think that Obama is the source of that attitude, especially when his administration deported more immigrants than any other.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

The border issue goes back much further than that.

---

Okay, so I'm agreeing with you that the issue goes back many years. Cesar Chavez? Hello?
Yes, I realize that Obama deported a lot.
I wasn't saying that Obama was the source of the anti-immigration movement - I was saying that Trump heightened it to the fore.

---

Blaming immigration has been our history as long as immigration has existed. Whether it was blaming Irish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, etc., this has always been a battle between each party and across party (whether it was social liberals vs. labor workers on the left or business vs. social conservatives on the right), you would be a fool to think that the last four years have been the height of anti-immigration movement. Americans really could benefit from studying history a bit more.

If you look at Trump's core base (and I am not referring to the business folks who had hoped to hold their nose and ride his coattail to achieve less regulation and more business friendly measures and jumped off when he tilted more to the core base with trade wars and isolationism), his base consolidation was centered on isolationism with some overflow from people who were more center-right feeling tired of some far left woke craziness (just like some people who were center-left moved more to the far left due to the craziness of the far right). Those people who were for isolationism were (i) segment of the blue-collar workers in displaced manufacturing segments who, like they did in the '80s and '90s, blamed immigration for lack of high paying manual labor, (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon who believed that we had to shut down globalism because we were giving away the store, and (iii) straight out racists like Stephen Miller. Trump didn't heightened anti-immigration feelings - that has always been there - he just played to his base like the con man that he is.

---

Okay, so, fine - I agree with you.
But Trump's racism and anti-immigration was overt and disgusting.

And, the main point I'd like to make - we need to DO SOMETHING about it, not just say "this has always been a part of America - why don't you study history more".

I'm simply calling the anti-immigration people out on it, especially the overtly gross ones.

---

Sorry but what do mean by this? The only recommendation from you I have seen is execute Trump and use armed military to enforce the border. We made recommendation on working jointly with the countries, open up trade to improve economy, enforce laws against sending money by families members here to the cartel to break immigration laws, set up asylum centers in other countries.

calbear93 said:

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SFBear92 said:

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calbear93 said:

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If we are honest, the immigration position of the last four years and the powder keg that it has become is a direct result of (I) far left union faction, epitomized by Sanders in the 90s, who were previously blue collar democrats (like many you now view here o. This board as RWNJ), (ii) economic nationalist like Bannon, (iii) hard core racists like Miller and (in) people who were reacting to the stupidity of the left arguing for no enforcement of immigration laws and sanctuary cities.

---

If we are honest, immigration has nothing to do with that.

Quote:

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But again, instead of couching this solely as what you hate about Americans, what do you want? What would be your ideal situation?

---

My ideal situation is that we need to seriously deal with the immigration issue as a Mexico problem, rather than a Mexicans problem.

---

On the first point, I didn't write that immigration comes from that. I wrote the current divisive positions on immigration has a history derived from those four factions in America.

Absolutely right on your last sentence. I would add that this goes beyond Mexico and includes Honduras. But we also cannot be sole provider of solutions and we need to provide the countries with incentive to come to the table. Trump was an ******* but he did force these other countries to start working to help address the mass migration instead of treating people leaving their country to come illegally to USA as only an American problem.

---

There is a lot here in this discussion. First of all neither party has any political incentive to actually come up with a solution. I realized that a long time ago so I treat political solutions on immigration like Cal basketball. I'll get serious about it when they get serious about it.

Regarding legal immigration. We absolutely need to have a sensible policy for bringing in immigrants. Legal immigration is good for us. I disagree with you to some extent that the focus should be on bringing in the best and the brightest. Some of legal immigration should be based on that. But I believe that immigration has been an engine for our economy throughout our history and not just by bringing in the best. It is also by bringing in immigrants who are driven to find a better way of life. There is no way to talk about these things without generalizing to some extent so caveat that I'm never talking about all people of a particular group. It is a statistical fact that children of immigrants are far more successful than children of people of the same racial, ethnic, socioeconomic backgrounds who have been here for more generations. It is not hard to see why. People often do not think about what these immigrants give up to come here because we often look down on their countries. But their countries are their home. They are giving up their culture, their way of life and that is a huge sacrifice. They are often doing it not for themselves, but for their children to have a better life. To decide to leave the home of your family and your ancestors requires a significant drive to succeed. And this isn't speculation. It is demonstrated in immigrant populations across ethnicities again and again. If I were designing a legal immigration policy it would be based on 3 buckets:

1. The best and the brightest as you say. That is buying Apple stock in 2021.
2. People coming for a "better life" not where they are forced to flee due to war and famine. People who are choosing the US to seek their "fortune". That is buying Apple stock in 1984 (with the understanding that buying the equivalent of Apple stock in 1984 doesn't always make a lot of money and sometimes loses your investment).
3. People fleeing war, violence famine. That is your charitable contribution.

Regarding illegal immigration - our entire conversation on this is a complete fantasy. I disagree that we need to primarily deal with this as a Mexico problem rather than a Mexicans problem (though yes that improvement needs to happen). Illegal immigration into our country is an American problem. Specifically Americans' addiction to black market labor. Of course the disparity in prosperity between the US and Latin America causes people to seek opportunity in the US. But that is not a problem we are going to fix.

Our problem is that it is very easy for us to criminalize Latinx foreigners. It is not so easy for us to imagine criminalizing the behavior of good old Americans. And that is what is necessary. You want to stop illegal immigration. Make it a mandatory $1M fine to the employer per illegal worker. Fines go up from there. AND ENFORCE IT. That will stop it very quickly. The dirty little secret is nobody wants to stop it. Some of the most virulently anti-immigrant areas will quietly say, "well, no, we aren't for shutting off the border" because they depend on their cheap labor. What they want is for illegal immigrants to come here with zero rights, work on the farms under the table for far less than an American worker will get, with no benefits or power to ask for decent working conditions. They want them to live somewhere outside of town, not go into town, not open any stores. not send their kids to their schools. Not use the medical facilities. not have any cultural influence in any way. They want them to invisibly work. Calling them illegal while not calling the employers illegal is the way to accomplish that.

The reason why we lefties are "sympathetic" to their plight is that, while we can scream cutting in line, breaking the law, etc. all day long, the fact is that we yell "how dare you sir!" and then whisper "come around back". They are not gate crashers. They are invited. Sometimes quite literally with advertising by US employers in their homeland telling them they have jobs is they cross the border. And the fact is they are not cutting in line for those jobs because those jobs are never (under our current system) going to legal workers, native or immigrant. The whole point is they are black market jobs. What we lefties are saying is, if you are going to invite them here to do those jobs, there are some minimum standards. We are not turning their kids away from schools and dooming a generation to be illiterate. We are not turning them away from medical facilities when they are sick or injured. And we are not letting them come here, set down roots and then saying get the eff out as soon as we are done with them. If you want your black market labor, those are the conditions.

The bottom line is there are no legal workers willing to do these jobs at wages these employers are paying them. If we dried up the black market work force, be prepared to pay more for things as wages will need to go up significantly. I'm fully prepared to do that if their are workers available to do those jobs. If illegal immigration is truly keeping wages for lower income, manual laborers depressed, IMO, the black market needs to stop. (I honestly don't know the answer to this question). On the flip side, I'm also not against a little black market labor if it is a win/win for everyone. They get more than they can get back home. We get workers to supplement jobs Americans won't do - if we have full employment. So I propose 2 alternatives. I don't care which.

1. We decide no more black market labor. We tighten the borders. But most of all, we crack down on employers hiring illegal workers. Severely. If you aren't willing to do that, you aren't serious about this issue. And with this, we realize it is going to have impacts on our economy that we will need to adjust to.

2. We acknowledge the reality that our economy has a black market labor component that it depends on. We give these people some basic rights as outlined above. Communities that want to rely on black market labor but don't want to pay the cost of providing basic human services can eff off. That is the cost of cheap labor. Go tax the employers you know are benefitting.

The bottom line is that politicians benefit from the racial division of the issue and any actual solution that involves minimizing illegal immigration will hurt the economy in the short run and more importantly hurt the political sacred cow that is the American farmer. They have zero political will to do anything.

As for the issue of people showing up on the border to claim asylum, Obama started to go the right way on that and Biden needs to follow that path. Negotiate with countries to allow the US to open facilities in their country to process applications. Once that is done, you make clear rules that make the chances of success higher at those facilities than at the border. People figure it out quickly. This should be clear to any Democratic politician because Trumpists want to create the situation at the border so they can maintain the optics of hoards of immigrants invading and they can conflate asylum seekers with people seeking immigration in my 2nd bucket waaaay up at the top of this post, and can also conflate them with illegal immigrants coming to work black market labor jobs. Most of these people do not have true asylum claims so we should get them off of our border and dispel any notion that somehow they have a better chance if they just show up.

GoOskie said:

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Just before the pandemic, I went to the service center to get my car worked on. I was sitting there reading and this lady starts up a convo with me, then asked me (almost demanded) to sit with her. She went on about how California will be bankrupt soon. It was odd. I couldn't tell if she was trying to pick up on me, sell me something, or if she was just a kooky MAGA. She seemed nice though.

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Was she hot?

SFBear92 said:

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I shake my head and laugh at anyone who complains about the declining birth rate. If there's one thing we don't have a shortage of on this planet, it's people. A decline in the birth rate is a good thing.

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Yep!

This idea of growth is based upon corporations who need more consumers for their products to make more money.

Imagine if the Earth's population was 10% of what it is now and what our standard of living would be like.

I am fine with declining "growth" because making more and more money isn't as important to me as quality of life.

I third this notion. Nominal growth is a corporate shareholder construct. I'm interested in per capita growth and quality of life measures.

OaktownBear said:

---

Regarding illegal immigration - our entire conversation on this is a complete fantasy. I disagree that we need to primarily deal with this as a Mexico problem rather than a Mexicans problem (though yes that improvement needs to happen). Illegal immigration into our country is an American problem. Specifically Americans' addiction to black market labor. Of course the disparity in prosperity between the US and Latin America causes people to seek opportunity in the US. But that is not a problem we are going to fix.

Our problem is that it is very easy for us to criminalize Latinx foreigners. It is not so easy for us to imagine criminalizing the behavior of good old Americans. And that is what is necessary. You want to stop illegal immigration. Make it a mandatory $1M fine to the employer per illegal worker. Fines go up from there. AND ENFORCE IT. That will stop it very quickly. The dirty little secret is nobody wants to stop it. Some of the most virulently anti-immigrant areas will quietly say, "well, no, we aren't for shutting off the border" because they depend on their cheap labor. What they want is for illegal immigrants to come here with zero rights, work on the farms under the table for far less than an American worker will get, with no benefits or power to ask for decent working conditions. They want them to live somewhere outside of town, not go into town, not open any stores. not send their kids to their schools. Not use the medical facilities. not have any cultural influence in any way. They want them to invisibly work. Calling them illegal while not calling the employers illegal is the way to accomplish that.

The reason why we lefties are "sympathetic" to their plight is that, while we can scream cutting in line, breaking the law, etc. all day long, the fact is that we yell "how dare you sir!" and then whisper "come around back". They are not gate crashers. They are invited. Sometimes quite literally with advertising by US employers in their homeland telling them they have jobs is they cross the border. And the fact is they are not cutting in line for those jobs because those jobs are never (under our current system) going to legal workers, native or immigrant. The whole point is they are black market jobs. What we lefties are saying is, if you are going to invite them here to do those jobs, there are some minimum standards. We are not turning their kids away from schools and dooming a generation to be illiterate. We are not turning them away from medical facilities when they are sick or injured. And we are not letting them come here, set down roots and then saying get the eff out as soon as we are done with them. If you want your black market labor, those are the conditions.

The bottom line is there are no legal workers willing to do these jobs at wages these employers are paying them. If we dried up the black market work force, be prepared to pay more for things as wages will need to go up significantly. I'm fully prepared to do that if their are workers available to do those jobs. If illegal immigration is truly keeping wages for lower income, manual laborers depressed, IMO, the black market needs to stop. (I honestly don't know the answer to this question). On the flip side, I'm also not against a little black market labor if it is a win/win for everyone. They get more than they can get back home. We get workers to supplement jobs Americans won't do - if we have full employment. So I propose 2 alternatives. I don't care which.

1. We decide no more black market labor. We tighten the borders. But most of all, we crack down on employers hiring illegal workers. Severely. If you aren't willing to do that, you aren't serious about this issue. And with this, we realize it is going to have impacts on our economy that we will need to adjust to.

2. We acknowledge the reality that our economy has a black market labor component that it depends on. We give these people some basic rights as outlined above. Communities that want to rely on black market labor but don't want to pay the cost of providing basic human services can eff off. That is the cost of cheap labor. Go tax the employers you know are benefitting.

The bottom line is that politicians benefit from the racial division of the issue and any actual solution that involves minimizing illegal immigration will hurt the economy in the short run and more importantly hurt the political sacred cow that is the American farmer. They have zero political will to do anything.

---

OTB hits the nail on the head here again as to the real problem. The real issue is how many people are willing to employ illegal immigrants.

There's also a good argument that this system actually ran more smoothly before we as a country decided to "get tough" about enforcing border security back in the 80s and 90s. Before that you had people crossing the border for temporary work all the time. They didn't intend to stay; they just came in for seasonal jobs and then went back to their families in Mexico or wherever. Since the border was more porous in those days it was easy to do. But when the border locked down it became more difficult to have regular crossings, so now you have people who cross once with their families and never look back. They bring kids who are now in their 20s and don't remember living anywhere else but who also aren't citizens. It's a much bigger mess.

It's probably not politically tenable to go back to the old "quasi-open" border system we once had, but it may be time to better codify the kind of work we need temporary immigrants to do and start issuing legal work permits for it, with the understanding that you will return to your home country once the time is up. If the rules are fair and clear enough people will follow them.

Over 1 Million Job Vacancy Postings In Computer Occupations In U.S.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2021/03/18/over-1-million-job-vacancy-postings-in-computer-occupations-in-us/

bearister said:

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Over 1 Million Job Vacancy Postings In Computer Occupations In U.S.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2021/03/18/over-1-million-job-vacancy-postings-in-computer-occupations-in-us/

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If companies aren't allowed to move the workers to where the jobs are, they will move the jobs to where the workers are.

sycasey said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Regarding illegal immigration - our entire conversation on this is a complete fantasy. I disagree that we need to primarily deal with this as a Mexico problem rather than a Mexicans problem (though yes that improvement needs to happen). Illegal immigration into our country is an American problem. Specifically Americans' addiction to black market labor. Of course the disparity in prosperity between the US and Latin America causes people to seek opportunity in the US. But that is not a problem we are going to fix.

Our problem is that it is very easy for us to criminalize Latinx foreigners. It is not so easy for us to imagine criminalizing the behavior of good old Americans. And that is what is necessary. You want to stop illegal immigration. Make it a mandatory $1M fine to the employer per illegal worker. Fines go up from there. AND ENFORCE IT. That will stop it very quickly. The dirty little secret is nobody wants to stop it. Some of the most virulently anti-immigrant areas will quietly say, "well, no, we aren't for shutting off the border" because they depend on their cheap labor. What they want is for illegal immigrants to come here with zero rights, work on the farms under the table for far less than an American worker will get, with no benefits or power to ask for decent working conditions. They want them to live somewhere outside of town, not go into town, not open any stores. not send their kids to their schools. Not use the medical facilities. not have any cultural influence in any way. They want them to invisibly work. Calling them illegal while not calling the employers illegal is the way to accomplish that.

The reason why we lefties are "sympathetic" to their plight is that, while we can scream cutting in line, breaking the law, etc. all day long, the fact is that we yell "how dare you sir!" and then whisper "come around back". They are not gate crashers. They are invited. Sometimes quite literally with advertising by US employers in their homeland telling them they have jobs is they cross the border. And the fact is they are not cutting in line for those jobs because those jobs are never (under our current system) going to legal workers, native or immigrant. The whole point is they are black market jobs. What we lefties are saying is, if you are going to invite them here to do those jobs, there are some minimum standards. We are not turning their kids away from schools and dooming a generation to be illiterate. We are not turning them away from medical facilities when they are sick or injured. And we are not letting them come here, set down roots and then saying get the eff out as soon as we are done with them. If you want your black market labor, those are the conditions.

The bottom line is there are no legal workers willing to do these jobs at wages these employers are paying them. If we dried up the black market work force, be prepared to pay more for things as wages will need to go up significantly. I'm fully prepared to do that if their are workers available to do those jobs. If illegal immigration is truly keeping wages for lower income, manual laborers depressed, IMO, the black market needs to stop. (I honestly don't know the answer to this question). On the flip side, I'm also not against a little black market labor if it is a win/win for everyone. They get more than they can get back home. We get workers to supplement jobs Americans won't do - if we have full employment. So I propose 2 alternatives. I don't care which.

1. We decide no more black market labor. We tighten the borders. But most of all, we crack down on employers hiring illegal workers. Severely. If you aren't willing to do that, you aren't serious about this issue. And with this, we realize it is going to have impacts on our economy that we will need to adjust to.

2. We acknowledge the reality that our economy has a black market labor component that it depends on. We give these people some basic rights as outlined above. Communities that want to rely on black market labor but don't want to pay the cost of providing basic human services can eff off. That is the cost of cheap labor. Go tax the employers you know are benefitting.

The bottom line is that politicians benefit from the racial division of the issue and any actual solution that involves minimizing illegal immigration will hurt the economy in the short run and more importantly hurt the political sacred cow that is the American farmer. They have zero political will to do anything.

---

OTB hits the nail on the head here again as to the real problem. The real issue is how many people are willing to employ illegal immigrants.

There's also a good argument that this system actually ran more smoothly before we as a country decided to "get tough" about enforcing border security back in the 80s and 90s. Before that you had people crossing the border for temporary work all the time. They didn't intend to stay; they just came in for seasonal jobs and then went back to their families in Mexico or wherever. Since the border was more porous in those days it was easy to do. But when the border locked down it became more difficult to have regular crossings, so now you have people who cross once with their families and never look back. They bring kids who are now in their 20s and don't remember living anywhere else but who also aren't citizens. It's a much bigger mess.

It's probably not politically tenable to go back to the old "quasi-open" border system we once had, but it may be time to better codify the kind of work we need temporary immigrants to do and start issuing legal work permits for it, with the understanding that you will return to your home country once the time is up. If the rules are fair and clear enough people will follow them.

---

It seems like we are all in agreement that employers who do not do adequate diligence (I believe Romney and Cotton proposed tying raise in minimum wage with E-Verify). I am all for this, but E-Verify has to be tied with check on actual identity (identity theft is too easy and is used as a way to circumvent E-Verity) with higher penalty for intentional fraud and additional requirement to check actual background of the person. We should also have temporary work permits that permit people to come here just to work and go back, either on a daily or weekly basis. But, we cannot have counties and cities protect those who are here illegally - otherwise this all falls apart. Relaxed work visa has to be coupled with actual enforcement instead of treating immigration laws as an optional guide that can be violated openly and thinking that degrading our future for their expedient feel good morals somehow makes them a better person.

All of this has to be tied with a pathway for citizenship, application for asylums at the local country, and heavier penalty for those who monentize or incentivize illegal immigration and encouragement of exploitation by the drug cartel. Furthermore, for those who want to continue to live in an isolationist manner, know that we can either improve the economic conditions of our allies through free trade and focus on what each country is good at or we can bring the problem here. I just cannot tolerate idiots who think we engage in foreign policy and seek allies and trade arrangement for altruistic purposes...it benefits us as well.

However, I disagree that we should not continue to focus our immigration on bringing people who can immediately add innovative talent to American. We are not going to be a manufacturing society with high low skilled manual labor. There are too many HGMs where labor is cheap, and we are not going to be competing there. We need to encourage top minds and highly educated folks to immigrate here. That is not investing in Apple now. That is investing in those who can build future Apples tomorrow.

calbear93 said:

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It seems like we are all in agreement that employers who do not do adequate diligence (I believe Romney and Cotton proposed tying raise in minimum wage with E-Verify). I am all for this, but E-Verify has to be tied with check on actual identity (identity theft is too easy and is used as a way to circumvent E-Verity) with higher penalty for intentional fraud and additional requirement to check actual background of the person. We should also have temporary work permits that permit people to come here just to work and go back, either on a daily or weekly basis. But, we cannot have counties and cities protect those who are here illegally - otherwise this all falls apart. Relaxed work visa has to be coupled with actual enforcement instead of treating immigration laws as an optional guide that can be violated openly and thinking that degrading our future for their expedient feel good morals somehow makes them a better person.

---

I think that if the immigration system becomes more orderly and fair then a lot of the moral/emotional motivation for "sanctuary cities" and other methods to subvert the law will fall away. The trouble is that the system is not remotely fair or orderly right now, as many Presidents and Congresses have punted their responsibility for improving it, over multiple decades. Maybe Biden and the Democrats will be able to get something done this time. We'll see.