If this spike in trans children is all biological, why is it regional? Either Ohio is shaming them or California is creating them. pic.twitter.com/t3Tx23MOsu

— Bill Maher (@billmaher) May 21, 2022

Bill Maher went on a rant and took on the trans movement in a way that was, let's just say, politically incorrect. He argued against puberty blockers and transitioning children. And he believes this movement is being pushed onto children by adults.

"The answer can't always be that anyone from a marginalized community is automatically right; trump card, mic drop, end of discussion. Because we're literally experimenting on children," Maher contended

"Someone needs to say it not everything's about you. And it's okay to ask questions about something that's very new and involves children," he noted since the ACLU had declared the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade was being said to have more of a negative impact on LGBTQ people than women.

BearForce2 said:

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If this spike in trans children is all biological, why is it regional? Either Ohio is shaming them or California is creating them. pic.twitter.com/t3Tx23MOsu

— Bill Maher (@billmaher) May 21, 2022

Bill Maher went on a rant and took on the trans movement in a way that was, let's just say, politically incorrect. He argued against puberty blockers and transitioning children. And he believes this movement is being pushed onto children by adults.

"The answer can't always be that anyone from a marginalized community is automatically right; trump card, mic drop, end of discussion. Because we're literally experimenting on children," Maher contended

"Someone needs to say it not everything's about you. And it's okay to ask questions about something that's very new and involves children," he noted since the ACLU had declared the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade was being said to have more of a negative impact on LGBTQ people than women.

---

Bill Maher is pretty smart and funny. Tough to do both but he pulls it off. As a long time married person I especially liked the joke about experiencing a life without balls.

Yes, there are more people identifying as trans in a state that is welcoming to them and fewer in a state ready to persecute them.

I can't imagine why this might be. Has to be because California is producing them in a factory.

sycasey said:

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Yes, there are more people identifying as trans in a state that is welcoming to them and fewer in a state ready to persecute them.

I can't imagine why this might be. Has to be because California is producing them in a factory.

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Thank you for this. The original post is so stupid.

sycasey said:

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Yes, there are more people identifying as trans in a state that is welcoming to them and fewer in a state ready to persecute them.

I can't imagine why this might be. Has to be because California is producing them in a factory.

---

I think most people would agree with welcoming and dignifying individuals who are old enough to make that decision. Most people do not want anyone to feel insecure for just being who they are.

For me, this is about when a public institution should talk about gender choice to kids? When they are going through puberty? Or when they think the other gender has cooties, etc?

You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

I took my kids to a university sponsored program on gender choices, sexuality, puberty, etc. when my kids went to middle school. I wanted some control over what my kids learned to make sure it was about knowledge and learning to respect and not some political agenda.

But I think you, like others, are making a conclusion without any basis either. Sure, your factor could be one. Could it also be what others are suggesting, that kids who are impressionable are pressured into doing what they view as cool and not what their bodies are telling them? Both positions are unfounded and trying to find a correlation based on their political views.

calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

As far as political demagoguery, I would say both parties are guilty of doing that by the extremist on both sides on this issue.

But glad you answered the question that I specifically asked. Appreciate it.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

Well, my attitude on this (just mine, not one I can force on other people) is that the information is out there and the kids will hear about it anyway, so it's better that they hear about it first from a responsible and trusted adult (whether that's me or their schoolteacher or both) rather than on the playground or on YouTube. It's gonna be the same with trans people. Heavy-handed restrictions on speech in schools don't accomplish anything.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

---

My experiences are different from yours, and I don't really put a lot weight into your perspective on what kids go through. I apologize if you are some child psychologist, but too many amateurs acting as experts.

When my son was in preschool, there was an Asian boy who wanted to wear his sister's dress. My son asked about why he likes to wear dresses. This was some 15 years ago. I just told him let him dress the way he wants and defend him if anyone made fun of him. No one actually did. The same boy was one of son's close friends in elementary school, and he became a typical boy who played soccer and baseball with my son. Just a phase he went through. Otherwise, from having raised three kids, I did not witness a lot of 2nd graders tormented that they were born in the wrong gender body. They had tendencies that sometimes they grew out of, but most of the time, my sons were thinking about Pokemon cards, sports, video games, and riding bikes with their friends. When they wanted to paint their nails because they wanted to, that was fine. They went to school like that. None of his friends cared. My daughter was a tomboy when she was young even though now she is as feminine as they come. But I suspect that came with her wanting to be more like her brothers or wanting to learn to fight like I did. I didn't turn their exploring into deep questioning with them on whether they wanted to change their gender. I just let them be instead of insisting they consider at that age whether they feel like they are identified in the right gender. This concept that there was a noticeable number of kids in 2nd grade thinking about whether they are in the right gender body is kind of like some worried about abortion right before birth. Just did not happen from my experience growing up or raising three kids, and I personally would not have wanted my second grader to learn about gender choices and transition in second grade.

You can parent your kids however you want, including teaching them about things, whether sex, intercourse, sexuality, or gender identification, you think they are ready for in second grade. Don't force it on my kids. I will choose to teach them about these personal things as I see fit and when I believe they are ready.

GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

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Or the democrats?

One of my dearest and oldest friends who is pretty politically conservative has a child who was born a girl but wants to transition to being a boy. This child was obviously from a very young age not going to be straight (and it was way, way beyond being a "tomboy"j and everyone who met the kid knew it. Some people are just wired differently.

Anyway, their child is now entering high school and very much wants to fully transition (with top surgery and hormone blockers). Mom and dad are adamantly opposed, which I will say feels like the right answer to me. I just think before you are 18 you really shouldn't do anything irreversible, which seems just like common sense.

But what is interesting is the pushback the parents have gotten from the Stanford doctors working with their child. The medical profession, at least in California, has come to the conclusion that with the parents consent for some kids this is the right outcome. I'll admit I was baffled at first but their perspective is that looking at suicide rates in trans teens, allowing them to transition sooner will save a lot of lives. These kids kill themselves at a shockingly high rate.

This has been incredibly difficult for my friend and his family but I will say it does tends to broaden one's view of such things when it's happening to someone you know and love. Things I previously thought were nonsense now seem possible and visa-versa.

I just thing society needs to get out of the way of these kids and their families. Only they can decide what's right for them.

Sebastabear said:

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I just thing society needs to get out of the way of these kids and their families. Only they can decide what's right for them.

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That is exactly right.

GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

---

Well, they could fall back on their well-constructed policies that will help working families . . . bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha, who are we kidding?

sycasey said:

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GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

---

That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

---

Well, they could fall back on their well-constructed policies that will help working families . . . bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha, who are we kidding?

---

Unfortunately, as little control as our federal government has on global macroeconomic conditions that are making the working families poorer by the day, I don't think the sentiment right now is that the Democrats have policies that help working families. If they were able to convince the working families that they have policies that will actually work, they will win the midterm easily because working families will ultimately vote on financial and economic well-being and not on social warfare. But the Democrats will lose that messaging when middle class go to vote because inflation is crushing people right now.

calbear93 said:

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WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

---

My experiences are different from yours, and I don't really put a lot weight into your perspective on what kids go through. I apologize if you are some child psychologist, but too many amateurs acting as experts.

When my son was in preschool, there was an Asian boy who wanted to wear his sister's dress. My son asked about why he likes to wear dresses. This was some 15 years ago. I just told him let him dress the way he wants and defend him if anyone made fun of him. No one actually did. The same boy was one of son's close friends in elementary school, and he became a typical boy who played soccer and baseball with my son. Just a phase he went through. Otherwise, from having raised three kids, I did not witness a lot of 2nd graders tormented that they were born in the wrong gender body. They had tendencies that sometimes they grew out of, but most of the time, my sons were thinking about Pokemon cards, sports, video games, and riding bikes with their friends. When they wanted to paint their nails because they wanted to, that was fine. They went to school like that. None of his friends cared. My daughter was a tomboy when she was young even though now she is as feminine as they come. But I suspect that came with her wanting to be more like her brothers or wanting to learn to fight like I did. I didn't turn their exploring into deep questioning with them on whether they wanted to change their gender. I just let them be instead of insisting they consider at that age whether they feel like they are identified in the right gender. This concept that there was a noticeable number of kids in 2nd grade thinking about whether they are in the right gender body is kind of like some worried about abortion right before birth. Just did not happen from my experience growing up or raising three kids, and I personally would not have wanted my second grader to learn about gender choices and transition in second grade.

You can parent your kids however you want, including teaching them about things, whether sex, intercourse, sexuality, or gender identification, you think they are ready for in second grade. Don't force it on my kids. I will choose to teach them about these personal things as I see fit and when I believe they are ready.

---

Believe me, I put even less weight on your perspective than you do mine. You don't have a different experience than me, based on your statement you have no experience with a child who's started their gender transition in grade school. You just knew of a kid who took playing dress up a little farther than most for awhile. As Sebasta points out, there's a huge difference. My experience is exactly the same as Sebasta's, except the kid I know is boy to girl and hasn't reached puberty yet.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I recognize your right to tell your kids whatever bigoted things you want to tell them inside your own home. But your kids don't own the school. Trans kids have just as much right to get an education in a safe and supportive environment as yours or mine.

So I'll say again: What do you propose the teacher should say to the class when "John" shows up as "Jane"? I'll even make it simple for you:

a) Nothing, as prohibited by law.
b) Whatever he or she wants, including nothing if they choose, teachers have 1st Amendment rights too.
c) A pre-determined statement as provided by law and/or school policy.
d) Trans kids should not be allowed in school.
e) Other. Please explain.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

---

Well, they could fall back on their well-constructed policies that will help working families . . . bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha, who are we kidding?

---

Unfortunately, as little control as our federal government has on global macroeconomic conditions that are making the working families poorer by the day, I don't think the sentiment right now is that the Democrats have policies that help working families. If they were able to convince the working families that they have policies that will actually work, they will win the midterm easily because working families will ultimately vote on financial and economic well-being and not on social warfare. But the Democrats will lose that messaging when middle class go to vote because inflation is crushing people right now.

---

Sure, but this goes well beyond the current election cycle. In at least two decades now, I can't think of anything Republicans have done to actually help working people. Democrats have imperfect solutions but they do something (Obamacare). Republicans have nothing. That's why they have to push the culture war.

WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

---

My experiences are different from yours, and I don't really put a lot weight into your perspective on what kids go through. I apologize if you are some child psychologist, but too many amateurs acting as experts.

When my son was in preschool, there was an Asian boy who wanted to wear his sister's dress. My son asked about why he likes to wear dresses. This was some 15 years ago. I just told him let him dress the way he wants and defend him if anyone made fun of him. No one actually did. The same boy was one of son's close friends in elementary school, and he became a typical boy who played soccer and baseball with my son. Just a phase he went through. Otherwise, from having raised three kids, I did not witness a lot of 2nd graders tormented that they were born in the wrong gender body. They had tendencies that sometimes they grew out of, but most of the time, my sons were thinking about Pokemon cards, sports, video games, and riding bikes with their friends. When they wanted to paint their nails because they wanted to, that was fine. They went to school like that. None of his friends cared. My daughter was a tomboy when she was young even though now she is as feminine as they come. But I suspect that came with her wanting to be more like her brothers or wanting to learn to fight like I did. I didn't turn their exploring into deep questioning with them on whether they wanted to change their gender. I just let them be instead of insisting they consider at that age whether they feel like they are identified in the right gender. This concept that there was a noticeable number of kids in 2nd grade thinking about whether they are in the right gender body is kind of like some worried about abortion right before birth. Just did not happen from my experience growing up or raising three kids, and I personally would not have wanted my second grader to learn about gender choices and transition in second grade.

You can parent your kids however you want, including teaching them about things, whether sex, intercourse, sexuality, or gender identification, you think they are ready for in second grade. Don't force it on my kids. I will choose to teach them about these personal things as I see fit and when I believe they are ready.

---

Believe me, I put even less weight on your perspective than you do mine. You don't have a different experience than me, based on your statement you have no experience with a child who's started their gender transition in grade school. You just knew of a kid who took playing dress up a little farther than most for awhile. As Sebasta points out, there's a huge difference. My experience is exactly the same as Sebasta's, except the kid I know is boy to girl and hasn't reached puberty yet.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I recognize your right to tell your kids whatever bigoted things you want to tell them inside your own home. But your kids don't own the school. Trans kids have just as much right to get an education in a safe and supportive environment as yours or mine.

So I'll say again: What do you propose the teacher should say to the class when "John" shows up as "Jane"? I'll even make it simple for you:

a) Nothing, as prohibited by law.
b) Whatever he or she wants, including nothing if they choose, teachers have 1st Amendment rights too.
c) A pre-determined statement as provided by law and/or school policy.
d) Trans kids should not be allowed in school.
e) Other. Please explain.

---

How about let the parents do their damn job instead thinking that the school will decide when an elementary student who is still swapping Pokmon cards is ready to talk about transitioning? And if you don't care for my perspective, why do you keep engaging me and asking me for my feedback? Weird fella.

IN your instance, why does the teacher need to say anything other than teach about general acceptance and make sure there is no bullying? Maybe refer to the parent and ask how they want to handle? The last thing I need is some teacher who majored in math to talk to my second grader about gender choices before I believe he is ready when I am just trying to get him to eat his greens. I will take him or her to a well prepared class that I will attend with my child when I believe they are ready. elitists like you who think you have all the answers for everyone's kids. I honestly don't care if you want to teach your second grader child all about sexual intercourse, different sexual roles, gender choices, abortion, or any other different grown up stuff at the age of 8. But I definitely don't need someone else, especially someone like you who has demonstrated zero evidence that you know how to live and succeed in life better than I do or is a better parent, to tell me when my second grader is ready to learn about grown up sexuality topics. You do you. I'll do me, and as I mentioned, I don't care how you choose to live your life. It impacts me zero what you and your family do.

WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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WalterSobchak said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

WalterSobchak said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

---

My experiences are different from yours, and I don't really put a lot weight into your perspective on what kids go through. I apologize if you are some child psychologist, but too many amateurs acting as experts.

When my son was in preschool, there was an Asian boy who wanted to wear his sister's dress. My son asked about why he likes to wear dresses. This was some 15 years ago. I just told him let him dress the way he wants and defend him if anyone made fun of him. No one actually did. The same boy was one of son's close friends in elementary school, and he became a typical boy who played soccer and baseball with my son. Just a phase he went through. Otherwise, from having raised three kids, I did not witness a lot of 2nd graders tormented that they were born in the wrong gender body. They had tendencies that sometimes they grew out of, but most of the time, my sons were thinking about Pokemon cards, sports, video games, and riding bikes with their friends. When they wanted to paint their nails because they wanted to, that was fine. They went to school like that. None of his friends cared. My daughter was a tomboy when she was young even though now she is as feminine as they come. But I suspect that came with her wanting to be more like her brothers or wanting to learn to fight like I did. I didn't turn their exploring into deep questioning with them on whether they wanted to change their gender. I just let them be instead of insisting they consider at that age whether they feel like they are identified in the right gender. This concept that there was a noticeable number of kids in 2nd grade thinking about whether they are in the right gender body is kind of like some worried about abortion right before birth. Just did not happen from my experience growing up or raising three kids, and I personally would not have wanted my second grader to learn about gender choices and transition in second grade.

You can parent your kids however you want, including teaching them about things, whether sex, intercourse, sexuality, or gender identification, you think they are ready for in second grade. Don't force it on my kids. I will choose to teach them about these personal things as I see fit and when I believe they are ready.

---

Believe me, I put even less weight on your perspective than you do mine. You don't have a different experience than me, based on your statement you have no experience with a child who's started their gender transition in grade school. You just knew of a kid who took playing dress up a little farther than most for awhile. As Sebasta points out, there's a huge difference. My experience is exactly the same as Sebasta's, except the kid I know is boy to girl and hasn't reached puberty yet.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I recognize your right to tell your kids whatever bigoted things you want to tell them inside your own home. But your kids don't own the school. Trans kids have just as much right to get an education in a safe and supportive environment as yours or mine.

So I'll say again: What do you propose the teacher should say to the class when "John" shows up as "Jane"? I'll even make it simple for you:

a) Nothing, as prohibited by law.
b) Whatever he or she wants, including nothing if they choose, teachers have 1st Amendment rights too.
c) A pre-determined statement as provided by law and/or school policy.
d) Trans kids should not be allowed in school.
e) Other. Please explain.

---

How about let the parents do their damn job instead thinking that the school will decide when an elementary student who is still swapping Pokmon cards is ready to talk about transitioning? And if you don't care for my perspective, why do you keep engaging me and asking me for my feedback? Weird fella.

IN your instance, why does the teacher need to say anything other than teach about general acceptance and make sure there is no bullying? Maybe refer to the parent and ask how they want to handle? The last thing I need is some teacher who majored in math to talk to my second grader about gender choices before I believe he is ready when I am just trying to get him to eat his greens. I will take him or her to a well prepared class that I will attend with my child when I believe they are ready. ****ing elitists like you who think you have all the answers for everyone's kids. I honestly don't care if you want to teach your second grader child all about sexual intercourse, different sexual roles, gender choices, abortion, or any other different grown up **** at the age of 8. But I definitely don't need someone else, especially someone like you who has demonstrated zero evidence that you know how to live and succeed in life better than I do or is a better parent, to tell me when my second grader is ready to learn about grown up sexuality topics. You do you. I'll do me, and as I mentioned, I don't give a **** how you choose to live your life. It impacts me zero what you and your family do.

---

So, you can't even answer a multiple choice question?

---

Because you are an idiot that poses idiotic questions.

Here, why don't you answer this multiple choice question.

Why is Walter so insistent on having 8 year olds be forced to talk about gender roles and sexuality?

A) because Walter thinks 8 is old enough to think about sex and he is in favor of it and he would love to volunteer to teach them.

B) because he thinks that saying something so stupid will give him browny points with extremist

C) he was such a ****ty parent that he wants the school to take over all parenting from every parent

Simple multiple choice.

WalterSobchak said:

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calbear93 said:

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WalterSobchak said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

WalterSobchak said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

WalterSobchak said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

You are a parent. At what age would you be comfortable with your kids being forced to listen to gender choice issues and being provided with permanent options on transitioning to the other gender? 8? 10? 14?

---

My oldest kid is 6 (almost 7). I have zero qualms about someone explaining to him that some people are born as boys but feel like girls and want to live that way. It's not hard.

As for "permanent" transition, I support such decisions being made by those kids, their families, and the appropriate medical professionals, as it is already done. If individuals are making those decisions quickly and getting their kids drugs and surgeries without the proper medical and psychiatric vetting, then they should be stopped. That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

---

OK, you and I have different views on the appropriate age for such a discussion.

Just like you would not want me to impose upon you on how you parent such a sensitive topic with your kids, those with differing views may not want others to impose that on their kids before they believe they are mature enough to understand and appreciate.

---

That all sounds reasonable, but I also lived through the 90s and remember when essentially the same arguments were trotted out by conservatives about gay people. Ellen DeGeneres kissed a woman on her sitcom and was labeled a "degenerate" and demagogued against by the right wing. The current spate of trans legislation strikes me as being more the same.

And guess what? Now your kids can have gay married teachers and it's fine. They will learn that trans people exist and will also be fine.

Medical transition is another matter, as I noted. You do need to be careful with kids who want to do that, as there can be permanent effects. Social transition? Meaning the kid just wants to dress differently or change their name? Just support them, for God's sake. They're going to have a hard enough time with that already.

---

I think what I am saying is not tantamount to what people of differing sexuality went through in the 90s.

I am saying I don't would not want my kids in elementary school to be informed about gender choices. Doesn't mean I don't think they should eventually learn when they start puberty.

What they should learn is that they need to respect others irrespective of differences and understand that everyone has the same emotions, desire to be understood, etc. that others have. Why isn't it enough that I taught my kids in elementary school to protect the bullied, to respect the difference in people, and to treat others as they would want others to treat them?

I was an involved parent, meaning my wife and I were involved in our kids' lives, providing them with guidance, teaching them values, making sure they were diligent, and making sure they treated others with respect and protect those who were bullied, etc. I don't want the school or someone with an agenda to dictate to me that my kids are ready to hear about gender choices in elementary school when they don't understand the meaning of their gender. My boys at one time liked to paint their nails. My daughter wanted to learn MMA in the studio I went. I didn't discourage it but I let them find their way instead of saying, oh maybe you want to be a girl or boy.

There are a lot of things I don't want elementary school students to learn that they will when they are puberty age. I suspect you wouldn't want them to be taught about birth control, etc. in second grade. I suspect you wouldn't want your second graders to see violent, gory movies in second grade. They just are not ready.

Trying to paint my wanting some input on when my kids learn about gender choices and sexuality as the same type of behavior that resulted in discrimination against gays in the 90s is not conducive to genuine discussion and sharing of perspective. I taught my kids to be respectful and loving in elementary school. That should be enough.

---

This is not how it happens. How would you explain to the kids in an elementary school class that their friend "John" now dresses like a girl and wants to be called "Jane"? As a parent, how would you approach the issue as your little "John" asserts himself and initiates a progression at home where he goes from the common practice of painting his nails and trying on mommy's shoes/clothes to wanting his own girl clothes to wanting to only wear girl clothes at home and in public to wanting to grow his hair and change his name? This happens. I know from personal experience. The kid's instinct and feelings drive the process, against the "hopes" of the parents. The parents have to adjust just as much if not more than anyone else. The kid feels relieved and freed, too naive to know what society has in store for him. The parents worry about how he will be treated and mourn a little for the loss of what they "expected" their son to be, but ultimately take all of that on out of the love they have for their son.

---

My experiences are different from yours, and I don't really put a lot weight into your perspective on what kids go through. I apologize if you are some child psychologist, but too many amateurs acting as experts.

When my son was in preschool, there was an Asian boy who wanted to wear his sister's dress. My son asked about why he likes to wear dresses. This was some 15 years ago. I just told him let him dress the way he wants and defend him if anyone made fun of him. No one actually did. The same boy was one of son's close friends in elementary school, and he became a typical boy who played soccer and baseball with my son. Just a phase he went through. Otherwise, from having raised three kids, I did not witness a lot of 2nd graders tormented that they were born in the wrong gender body. They had tendencies that sometimes they grew out of, but most of the time, my sons were thinking about Pokemon cards, sports, video games, and riding bikes with their friends. When they wanted to paint their nails because they wanted to, that was fine. They went to school like that. None of his friends cared. My daughter was a tomboy when she was young even though now she is as feminine as they come. But I suspect that came with her wanting to be more like her brothers or wanting to learn to fight like I did. I didn't turn their exploring into deep questioning with them on whether they wanted to change their gender. I just let them be instead of insisting they consider at that age whether they feel like they are identified in the right gender. This concept that there was a noticeable number of kids in 2nd grade thinking about whether they are in the right gender body is kind of like some worried about abortion right before birth. Just did not happen from my experience growing up or raising three kids, and I personally would not have wanted my second grader to learn about gender choices and transition in second grade.

You can parent your kids however you want, including teaching them about things, whether sex, intercourse, sexuality, or gender identification, you think they are ready for in second grade. Don't force it on my kids. I will choose to teach them about these personal things as I see fit and when I believe they are ready.

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Believe me, I put even less weight on your perspective than you do mine. You don't have a different experience than me, based on your statement you have no experience with a child who's started their gender transition in grade school. You just knew of a kid who took playing dress up a little farther than most for awhile. As Sebasta points out, there's a huge difference. My experience is exactly the same as Sebasta's, except the kid I know is boy to girl and hasn't reached puberty yet.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I recognize your right to tell your kids whatever bigoted things you want to tell them inside your own home. But your kids don't own the school. Trans kids have just as much right to get an education in a safe and supportive environment as yours or mine.

So I'll say again: What do you propose the teacher should say to the class when "John" shows up as "Jane"? I'll even make it simple for you:

a) Nothing, as prohibited by law.
b) Whatever he or she wants, including nothing if they choose, teachers have 1st Amendment rights too.
c) A pre-determined statement as provided by law and/or school policy.
d) Trans kids should not be allowed in school.
e) Other. Please explain.

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How about let the parents do their damn job instead thinking that the school will decide when an elementary student who is still swapping Pokmon cards is ready to talk about transitioning? And if you don't care for my perspective, why do you keep engaging me and asking me for my feedback? Weird fella.

IN your instance, why does the teacher need to say anything other than teach about general acceptance and make sure there is no bullying? Maybe refer to the parent and ask how they want to handle? The last thing I need is some teacher who majored in math to talk to my second grader about gender choices before I believe he is ready when I am just trying to get him to eat his greens. I will take him or her to a well prepared class that I will attend with my child when I believe they are ready. ****ing elitists like you who think you have all the answers for everyone's kids. I honestly don't care if you want to teach your second grader child all about sexual intercourse, different sexual roles, gender choices, abortion, or any other different grown up **** at the age of 8. But I definitely don't need someone else, especially someone like you who has demonstrated zero evidence that you know how to live and succeed in life better than I do or is a better parent, to tell me when my second grader is ready to learn about grown up sexuality topics. You do you. I'll do me, and as I mentioned, I don't give a **** how you choose to live your life. It impacts me zero what you and your family do.

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So, you can't even answer a multiple choice question?

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Because you are an idiot that poses idiotic questions.

Here, why don't you answer this multiple choice question.

Why is Walter so insistent on having 8 year olds be forced to talk about gender roles and sexuality?

A) because Walter thinks 8 is old enough to think about sex and he is in favor of it and he would love to volunteer to teach them.

B) because he thinks that saying something so stupid will give him browny points with extremist

C) he was such a ****ty parent that he wants the school to take over all parenting from every parent

Simple multiple choice.

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Where's my "Other. Please explain." option?

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Because we all know your true answer is A.

I gave my other better response and you got confused and asked why I didn't respond to your multiple choice like the idiot you are. You are the kind of person I would never have to engage with in real life, and I will now choose to put you on ignore as I would if you kept trying to engage me with your stupidity in person.

Car loans and credit card debt are both dischargeable, student loans are not. Student loans also have not been forgiven, and won't without significant restrictions, because of SLABS.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

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How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

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Well, they could fall back on their well-constructed policies that will help working families . . . bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha, who are we kidding?

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Unfortunately, as little control as our federal government has on global macroeconomic conditions that are making the working families poorer by the day, I don't think the sentiment right now is that the Democrats have policies that help working families. If they were able to convince the working families that they have policies that will actually work, they will win the midterm easily because working families will ultimately vote on financial and economic well-being and not on social warfare. But the Democrats will lose that messaging when middle class go to vote because inflation is crushing people right now.

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Sure, but this goes well beyond the current election cycle. In at least two decades now, I can't think of anything Republicans have done to actually help working people. Democrats have imperfect solutions but they do something (Obamacare). Republicans have nothing. That's why they have to push the culture war.

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I will give you a definite and absolute agreement on Obamacare. I think healthcare is a basic necessity. Republicans went too far in trying to eliminate that without a better solution. Now, the Democrats also do things that hurt working families such as creating more debt for everyone by excusing student loans and creating an unfair situation for families that saved to pay or young adults who saved and paid off earlier. Why just student loans? Why not car loans or credit card debt that hurt regular folks more? Why not all debt and destroy the credit market? Both parties go too far in their ideology because both parties cater to the extremists and have more concern about their party than any segment of Americans. Do I truly believe that AOC or Cruz actually have working families's best interest? Of course not. They care about power and creating their own empires.

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Hey, if Republicans want to propose their own policies to deal with the student loan crisis then I'm all ears. Haven't seen anything so far.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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GoOskie said:

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sycasey said:

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That kind of thing is also pretty rare AFAIK and is not something that needs to be politically demagogued.

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How could the repub party exist without demagoguery?

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Well, they could fall back on their well-constructed policies that will help working families . . . bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha, who are we kidding?

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Unfortunately, as little control as our federal government has on global macroeconomic conditions that are making the working families poorer by the day, I don't think the sentiment right now is that the Democrats have policies that help working families. If they were able to convince the working families that they have policies that will actually work, they will win the midterm easily because working families will ultimately vote on financial and economic well-being and not on social warfare. But the Democrats will lose that messaging when middle class go to vote because inflation is crushing people right now.

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Sure, but this goes well beyond the current election cycle. In at least two decades now, I can't think of anything Republicans have done to actually help working people. Democrats have imperfect solutions but they do something (Obamacare). Republicans have nothing. That's why they have to push the culture war.

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I will give you a definite and absolute agreement on Obamacare. I think healthcare is a basic necessity. Republicans went too far in trying to eliminate that without a better solution. Now, the Democrats also do things that hurt working families such as creating more debt for everyone by excusing student loans and creating an unfair situation for families that saved to pay or young adults who saved and paid off earlier. Why just student loans? Why not car loans or credit card debt that hurt regular folks more? Why not all debt and destroy the credit market? Both parties go too far in their ideology because both parties cater to the extremists and have more concern about their party than any segment of Americans. Do I truly believe that AOC or Cruz actually have working families's best interest? Of course not. They care about power and creating their own empires.

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Hey, if Republicans want to propose their own policies to deal with the student loan crisis then I'm all ears. Haven't seen anything so far.

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Why do we have to do anything? Why do we have to forgive debt that people took out willingly? The whole government backing student loans without limit and now taking steps to forgive loans have led to runaway tuitions. This is a bit like government encouraging home ownership at all cost leading to housing crash in 2008. Governments are not good at these social engineering. Would colleges still actually charge what they are charging without the government subsidizing? It isn't as if top universities are going to close shop without the government funding runaway tuition. In fact, most top university have such a large endowment that they can and often do give grants to all middle class students. It's those for profit, exploitative colleges that provide no benefit that are causing most of the harm. Why are we paying for this? With everything that we need to fund, from child poverty, to homeless, etc., understanding that there are finite resources without creating massive inflation, is funding this or paying off debt of students who took out these loans irresponsibly really the best use of our resources? I disagree with your take. We live with the consequences of the choices we make. We need to stop trying to equalize everyone's situation as if choices don't have consequences. I paid off my student loans during the first three years of graduation from law school with no help from the government and no help from my parents. I did everything I can do get a good job after law school and lived way below my means. I am sure you have paid off yours too. It isn't as if we are some special individuals with trust funds or wealthy parents. We were just responsible.