Sad news from ChristChurch New Zealand

sp4149
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City in Lockdown after multiple shooting with fatalities.
Terrorists posted on social media during episode.

Perhaps my first exposure to New Zealand was thru rugby
and then a Maori chant before Cal football games.

In 1984 I flew to ChristChurch as part of a once in a lifetime to week
vacation. It was a good time to be an American alone in a wonderful
but foreign country. In some respects it was like stepping back 80 years
to what America had once been. My employer the Navy used New Zealand
as a base for operations, but was a poor tenant; treating the island nation
more like an enemy than an ally. The news of today just saddens me.
bearister
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https://mol.im/a/6811785
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
B.A. Bearacus
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Sick ******* slaughters 27 at a mosque and live streams it POV style so that others can share in the vicarious delight of the experience. If there is a hell, may this person reside there now. And may he be followed by those who plant the seeds of hate into these sick minds.
CalLifer
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I was just there on a family vacation 3 weeks ago... what an awful tragedy.
calumnus
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golden sloth
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B.A. Bearacus said:

Sick ******* slaughters 27 at a mosque and live streams it POV style so that others can share in the vicarious delight of the experience. If there is a hell, may this person reside there now. And may he be followed by those who plant the seeds of hate into these sick minds.
I can't believe the person live streamed it, its exactly like in 'Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suits'.
OneKeg
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Around 50 innocent people mirdered in cold blood at their place of worship. Full fascist manifesto beforehand, and the killings live-streamed to energize their base worldwide.

Thoughts are with all New Zealanders. And with all of us. I think we as a species are headed to a dark place in the coming decades, to the extent we are not there already.
Goobear
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May they Rest In Peace
PtownBear1
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Really horrifying. I was just in NZ this past new year and had been telling everyone what a safe civilized place it was.
Another Bear
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I'm surprised they couldn't shut down the live stream. Something serious has to be done about that.

sp4149
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PtownBear1 said:

Really horrifying. I was just in NZ this past new year and had been telling everyone what a safe civilized place it was.
It really was, compared to US standards. Last year New Zealand had 35 murders in the entire country of 5 million. Christchurch has a population of 400,000, virtually tied with the capital Wellington for the second largest city in New Zealand.

Last Year Baton Rouge (LA) had 87 murders in a population of 225,000. The national average in the US is 5 murders per 100,000 residents, which for a population of 5 million like NZ would be 250 homicides. Even with this tragedy, NZ will still likely be safer than anywhere in the US.
Another Bear
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I wonder how NZ reacts. Does it just look the other or get caught in an endless clusterf**** of nothing like in the U.S. or does it enact major gun control reform like Australia, when the murderer/terrorist was from. Could be very telling the guy didn't try this at home.

After a mass murder shooting in 1996, Australia enacted strict gun control laws that has virtually eliminated mass shooting. How Australia All But Ended Gun Violence
OneKeg
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sp4149 said:

PtownBear1 said:

Really horrifying. I was just in NZ this past new year and had been telling everyone what a safe civilized place it was.
It really was, compared to US standards. Last year New Zealand had 35 murders in the entire country of 5 million. Christchurch has a population of 400,000, virtually tied with the capital Wellington for the second largest city in New Zealand.

Last Year Baton Rouge (LA) had 87 murders in a population of 225,000. The national average in the US is 5 murders per 100,000 residents, which for a population of 5 million like NZ would be 250 homicides. Even with this tragedy, NZ will still likely be safer than anywhere in the US.
NZ is of course far safer than the US.

There may be a distinction here that this was a completely clear-cut, pointed and self-avowed act of terrorism as part of a greater right-wing fascist movement. Pulled off by a foreigner (Aussie) in NZ. Just like when a terrorist of any stripe kills a bunch of innocents, it's murder, but it's also often viewed as a special subset of all murders.

(Goes without saying, this does not make things any better for any of the victims of any murder). RIP.
sp4149
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Another Bear said:

I wonder how NZ reacts. Does it just look the other or get caught in an endless clusterf**** of nothing like in the U.S. or does it enact major gun control reform like Australia, when the murderer/terrorist was from. Could be very telling the guy didn't try this at home.

After a mass murder shooting in 1996, Australia enacted strict gun control laws that has virtually eliminated mass shooting. How Australia All But Ended Gun Violence
On my one visit to Christchurch in 1984, a friend of a Kiwi friend was our tour guide. He was a climber and loved climbing in the Sierras. He frequently hosted climbers from the US headed into the Southern Alps (think Lord of the Rings). We were staying at a Hotel at the edge of the park where the shootings occurred. He picked us up and we visited Fairymead (museum/amusement park) and then he brought us home for dinner. While waiting for dinner his son came home with a couple of wild cotton tails he had shot for food with a 22 rifle. Biggest wild rabbits I had ever seen. They lived in the country outside of town. It was like a Kiwi version of a Norman Rockwell scene. That was the only weapon I remember seeing during the two weeks in the country.

The next week we were on the North Island for a re-enactment of the turning of the first sod after a ceremonial signing of a treaty allowing the Main Trunk railway to cross Maori lands. I took a photo of the NZ PM in formal attire stepping through a barbed wire fence with the assistance of the local MP, about 20 feet away. No security blocking my view. The steam train was on a trip from Auckland to Wellington with 18 coaches and two engines. The ceremony was on the first day and five extra coaches were added for the government party, so I expect there was security present, just unintrusive. And a foreigner taking photos of the PM, MPs and members of the government party was unaware.

An unusual experience for an American who had been drug off the turf of the LA Coliseum for inappropriate behavior (aka Throwing a football) while I was a football manager placing footballs on the field for the Friday walk-thru practice. I also got thrown out of the press box when taking Polaroids for the Cal coaches in their press box booth. Only happened for SC games, Wealthy SC donors didn't want riff raff in their press box.

Yes NZ is a special place, a lot like California, just (until yesterday) a lot safer.
Another Bear
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I've heard a few Kiwis and Aussies both say NZ and Oz were more California than California. I imagined that to mean idyllic laid back 70s California with 15m population instead of 40m. Of course NZ shares mountains, oceans and earthquakes with California. Unfortunately now also gun violence and weirdness. On the plus side, a small country with good leadership likely will be more nimble in addressing things.
sp4149
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Another Bear said:

I've heard a few Kiwis and Aussies both say NZ and Oz were more California than California. I imagined that to mean idyllic laid back 70s California with 15m population instead of 40m. Of course NZ shares mountains, oceans and earthquakes with California. Unfortunately now also gun violence and weirdness. On the plus side, a small country with good leadership likely will be more nimble in addressing things.
One major difference back in the 80's they had extremely high tariffs, wages were much lower than California, while prices were double or triple. I saw Kiwis driving cars and using cameras that I had only seen in museums. Unlike our disposable society they bought something and then maintained it for their lifetime.

Yesterdays terrorist attack bodes another question. The guns and equipment used in the attack are very expensive in New Zealand.

Who provided the funds to buy them?

Found this NZ footage taken after the shooter's car was stopped by police and he was removed from the vehicle.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/moment-christchurch-mass-shooting-suspect-arrested-police?variant=tb_v_1

Remember the driver is on the right side of the vehicle, Never seen a traffic stop quite like this, obviously very aggressive and effective; the officer deserves a citation for ending it right now...
calumnus
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The murderer, an immigrant from England to Australia (which was stolen from the Aboriginal people), went to New Zealand (which was taken from the Maoris), to kill "immigrants" and defend "white ancestral lands" and was "inspired" by white supremicst supporters of Donald Trump in the US, a country taken from Native Americans (and Mexicans and Hawaiians, Chamorros, Samoans....).
burritos
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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/new-zealand-suspect-mocked-placid-jeb-bush-and-hailed-trump-as-symbol-of-renewed-white-identity

Quote:


"Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?" he asked himself. "As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no."

Interesting.
sp4149
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It's nice to know that as long as the President refuses to recognize domestic terrorists as a threat and refuses to have Homeland Security track domestic terrorist groups, by definition we cannot have a domestic terrorist threat...
72CalBear
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We are somewhat numb to these kinds of horrific killings in the US, but NZ isn't. We lived in Auckland from l979-86 - our kids were born there and are Kiwis, and I took out citizenship never caring to return to California. It was and is, just that nice of a place to live, work and raise a family. No comparison. We returned and over the years yes, NZ has emerged to face bigger world challenges that we didn't have while living there: Poverty, unemployment, climate issues, inflation, and also a sort of inbred provincialism that you automatically receive when living on an island and the whole world revolves around you. Polynesians and Pacific Islanders are assimilated, and immigration is closely controlled. Homicide rates are up from the ONE unsolved murder the entire country had in l986. The new PM Jacinda Ardern spoke eloquently yesterday on the country's resolve to not only never let this happen again, but that these kind of people do not even belong in her country. She is right. Racism, bigotry, religious intolerance are everywhere, but it is not institutionalized there as many might say it is here now. America has given a platform for extremists like never before. It has spilled over social media to small, peaceful, and somewhat innocent and isolated places like NZ. I have been so sick all day trying to find any kind of sense to help me cope. I am an American first, but NZ really feels like home to me. Our hearts are really hurting for these victims, their families, and the entire country.
Another Bear
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I've heard PM Ardern speak in the past. She is very good, charming and charmismatic but also straight forward and unafraid. I don't know much about NZ politics but I think they're lucky to have her at this time. They could have done way worse or be in a bad spot with someone else. Just looked at the video below, she is very good. Agree, she hit the right note.
OneKeg
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New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern sounds the right note.



Commentary by a (non-fascist) Australian as well:





sp4149
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There are the times when we watch a Prime Minister address an "emergency situation" while at the same time witnessing our President creat an 'emergency situation'; I start to think that maybe our style of government is no longer the best for today's world.

for example, today.
sp4149
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I had a neighbor in San Francisco named Waleed. He was from Palestine. He got into several fights with Jewish kids in the neighborhood who didn't want his type around. After all Israel had been at war with Palestinians all their lives. Funny thing his family were Christians and had left Palestine because the Muslims also didn't want them around. Their new lives in California were safer perhaps but far from idyllic.
calumnus
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sp4149 said:

I had a neighbor in San Francisco named Waleed. He was from Palestine. He got into several fights with Jewish kids in the neighborhood who didn't want his type around. After all Israel had been at war with Palestinians all their lives. Funny thing his family were Christians and had left Palestine because the Muslims also didn't want them around. Their new lives in California were safer perhaps but far from idyllic.


Arafat's wife/widow was/is Christian (Catholic), born in Jerusalem. Many Palestinians are (mostly Eastern Orthodox). The DNA secret is that the Palestinians are largely descended from Samaritans and Hebrews who were Helenized under Greek and Roman rule, converted to Christianity in the early days of Christianity and under Constantine and then many converted to Islam under Arab and Ottoman rule.
B.A. Bearacus
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Another Bear
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In related news... shutting down the hate and propaganda machines.

Australia bans Milo Yiannopoulos after comments on New Zealand mosque attacks

New Zealand pulls Murdoch's Sky News Australia off the air over mosque massacre coverage

B.A. Bearacus
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Another Bear said:

In related news... shutting down the hate and propaganda machines.

Australia bans Milo Yiannopoulos after comments on New Zealand mosque attacks

New Zealand pulls Murdoch's Sky News Australia off the air over mosque massacre coverage



Another Black Eye for Cal.
B.A. Bearacus
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Another Bear
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concordtom
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sp4149 said:

There are the times when we watch a Prime Minister address an "emergency situation" while at the same time witnessing our President creat an 'emergency situation'; I start to think that maybe our style of government is no longer the best for today's world.

for example, today.

It's not the form of government.
It's the person.
Trump is a freak, like Hitler and Napoleon before him.

If he could mobilize his army and do everything he envisions, he would.
It's our form of government which is going to stop him.

concordtom
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concordtom
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It's the person, not the nation.

72CalBear
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Another Bear said:






Yes, this is what compassionate leadership is. Support, commitment, and goals to both address the sorrow and to end the cancer of religious intolerance and hate. How I wish our president had an ounce of what Jacinda has as a respected, humane leader!
sp4149
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72CalBear said:


Yes, this is what compassionate leadership is. Support, commitment, and goals to both address the sorrow and to end the cancer of religious intolerance and hate. How I wish our president had an ounce of what Jacinda has as a respected, humane leader!
There are the times when we watch a Prime Minister demonstrate "compassionate leadership" while at the same time witnessing our President continues to display a total lack of 'compassionate leadership'; I start to think that maybe our style of government is no longer designed to select the best for today's world.

Facebook has become for me a sad, tiresome burden. It has brought me sad news about friends and unending support for our corrupt, flawed, criminally deviant POTUS.
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