War With Iran

7,190 Views | 204 Replies | Last: 21 hrs ago by BearForce2
AunBear89
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What!?!? You don't have some funny meme for that? Your game is slipping, loser.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Unit2Sucks
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bearlyamazing said:




Trump had virtually no foreign policy experience as part of his team when he was running for president so he reached as best he could when being pressed on who his policy advisors were early in the campaign. Neither Carter Page or George Papadopoulos had much relevant experience or involvement in the campaign but once they were named by Trump publicly, if they could get FISA warrants on either, they could monitor all electronic communications either had starting 18 months prior, as well as all the electronic communications starting 18 months prior of all they talked to as well as all the electronic communications starting 18 months prior of all the people those people spoke to.

Page would not have been named without at least someone in Trump's orbit speaking with him and that's all it took to be able to monitor virtually anyone in his campaign, including Trump.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/04/12/pages-role-trump-campaign-foreign-policy-advisory-committee-mystery/100377630/
Once again you have failed to provide any relevant evidence. Other than contradicting Trump's campaign officials and baseless conjecture, you have provided nothing of value.

Let me provide some actual relevant facts. The original Carter Page FISA warrant was submitted in October 2016, just a few weeks before the election. No one can credibly claim that the FBI was attempting to damage Trump's election chances by surveilling after the election someone who by all accounts (other than bearlyamazing's) had no relationship with the Trump campaign itself, other than a one time reference in a made up committee.

There has been no credible evidence that anything came of the surveillance. No one on Trump's campaign was harmed by the issuance of the warrant and Trump himself was not impacted in any way.

There was a candidate whose candidacy was negatively impacted by the FBI - you may remember her from Jim Comey's unnecessary July press conference and October surprise. In fact, right around the time Comey was signing the FISA application he was announcing yet again that there was additional Clinton material that was being reviewed.

So please spare us the emotional handwringing over Carter Page. FBI misconduct did have an impact on the election and it helped elect Donald Trump. Ignoring that to focus on an immaterial overreach is both foolish and pointless.
bearlyamazing
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Unit2Sucks said:

bearlyamazing said:




Trump had virtually no foreign policy experience as part of his team when he was running for president so he reached as best he could when being pressed on who his policy advisors were early in the campaign. Neither Carter Page or George Papadopoulos had much relevant experience or involvement in the campaign but once they were named by Trump publicly, if they could get FISA warrants on either, they could monitor all electronic communications either had starting 18 months prior, as well as all the electronic communications starting 18 months prior of all they talked to as well as all the electronic communications starting 18 months prior of all the people those people spoke to.

Page would not have been named without at least someone in Trump's orbit speaking with him and that's all it took to be able to monitor virtually anyone in his campaign, including Trump.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/04/12/pages-role-trump-campaign-foreign-policy-advisory-committee-mystery/100377630/
Once again you have failed to provide any relevant evidence. Other than contradicting Trump's campaign officials and baseless conjecture, you have provided nothing of value.

Let me provide some actual relevant facts. The original Carter Page FISA warrant was submitted in October 2016, just a few weeks before the election. No one can credibly claim that the FBI was attempting to damage Trump's election chances by surveilling after the election someone who by all accounts (other than bearlyamazing's) had no relationship with the Trump campaign itself, other than a one time reference in a made up committee.

There has been no credible evidence that anything came of the surveillance. No one on Trump's campaign was harmed by the issuance of the warrant and Trump himself was not impacted in any way.

There was a candidate whose candidacy was negatively impacted by the FBI - you may remember her from Jim Comey's unnecessary July press conference and October surprise. In fact, right around the time Comey was signing the FISA application he was announcing yet again that there was additional Clinton material that was being reviewed.

So please spare us the emotional handwringing over Carter Page. FBI misconduct did have an impact on the election and it helped elect Donald Trump. Ignoring that to focus on an immaterial overreach is both foolish and pointless.
Are you kidding me with this sorry spin? The Strzok-Lisa Page texts laid out the FBI's desperation to derail the Trump campaign with the FISA spying. And when that failed and he got elected, they shifted into hyperdrive to get him removed from office. The amount of official documentation on all of this and who the players were and what they did is overwhelming. Are you living in a bunker? The IG Report even documented how FBI lawer Kevin Clinesmith changed the email from the CIA saying he was an asset to denying that he was an asset and passed it on to the FISA court. The left and their willing accomplices in the media tried to pass him off as some rougue, low-level lawyer. Complete BS. He was a very high-level FBI attorney and he certainly wasn't acting alone. Even if he was, it would've been very easy to catch and fix. Things like that don't fall through the cracks.

The only reason they had to turn to the FISA process is because their thousands of illegal NSA database queries under the Obama administration were discovered by Admiral Rogers and ground to a halt so they shifted to the FISA strategy instead.

How was Trump hurt? Are you even serious with that question? He got tarred and feathered with every illegal leak that came out after the spying started. For one, the FBI called General Flynn in for an "informal chat." When he asked if he needed a lawyer, they said, no, it's just an informal discussion. They then grilled him on his contact with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak. After the interview, the two FBI agents who interviewed him said they believed he told the truth. The FBI then compared the timelines for when he contacted them with the phone-monitored conversations they were able to conduct because of the 2-hop rule and busted him for lying about the contact dates because they already knew what day they spoke and what they talked about. What they talked about was normal transition period business, in this case, not going overboard in retaliating for Obama's last-minute penalties against Russia for spying in the election, which was something he totally denied was occurring when he thought Trump would lose. He didn't want Trump to have any Russian interference excuse, which is hilarious because that's exactly what Hillary and the left turned around and used. He said no credible person could ever claim they're even capable of impacting an election in any meaningful way. Oops.
Unit2Sucks
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I know you like to cherry pick bearlyamazing but you have to pick actual cherries.

I have to be honest though I am a bit surprised you would defend Michael Flynn. He was fired for lying to Pence and Trump about the same things he is going to jail for. The Republican appointed judge ha excoriated him and has had zero sympathy. It wasn't that long ago that Americans across the political spectrum were united against people who sold out their country but I guess you consider them patriots now.

I guess the good news for you is that over the next few years we will learn a lot more about the traitors in Trump's circle so you will have a lot more people to idolize and defend.

Until then you can stop wasting our time with immaterial claims. Trump is burning down the house and you are complaining that someone scratched the floor while sweeping up.
bearlyamazing
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You and others here and on the left everywhere throw around the word "traitor" very cavalierly for a 33 year general with 3 bronze service stars. He did nothing anywhere near justifying being called a traitor. They bankrupted him and his family and threatened to throw his son in prison, too, so he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI, something Comey, McCabe and Strzok were all found guilty of and have served zero time in custody. Only in upper echelon FBI, they delicately call it "lacking candor." What a joke. Where you find "traitor" and "selling his country out" based on what he pleaded to is beyond me. Anything to tar and feather anyone associated with Trump for the blowback on him, I guess.
Unit2Sucks
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bearlyamazing said:

You and others here and on the left everywhere throw around the word "traitor" very cavalierly for a 33 year general with 3 bronze service stars. He did nothing anywhere near justifying being called a traitor. They bankrupted him and his family and threatened to throw his son in prison, too, so he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI, something Comey, McCabe and Strzok were all found guilty of and have served zero time in custody. Only in upper echelon FBI, they delicately call it "lacking candor." What a joke. Where you find "traitor" and "selling his country out" based on what he pleaded to is beyond me. Anything to tar and feather anyone associated with Trump for the blowback on him, I guess.
Sad to see you side with someone like Michael Flynn who was an incredible risk to national security but it shows where your priorities are.

Flynn lied to everyone. In addition to the Russia stuff, he was a foreign agent of Turkey (but didn't register as such until after he got caught) and as a former general he of course should have known better. He was a massive security risk and even if that weren't the case, he exhibited incredibly poor judgment.

The fact that Trump thought it was a good idea to put someone like Flynn (who Obama warned him about) as his national security adviser was, let's be honest, totally on-brand for Trump but not something that anyone who cares about US interests should approve of.

Flynn was incredibly fortunate that the government allowed him to plead down his crimes in exchange for cooperation, but to pretend like his crimes were limited to lying to the FBI is laughable. He's a crook and he should be locked up for a long time, as should anyone who holds a position of trust in government and sells us out for foreign interests.
Anarchistbear
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Flynn also contacted the Russian Ambassador at the behest of the Israelis and probably Kushner to make sure the Russians vetoed the UN resolution condemning West Bank settlements- a vote on which the Obama administration decided to abstain. The Russian collusion narrative needs to be put in perspective with the competing Israeli collusion narrative.
bearlyamazing
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Unit2Sucks said:

bearlyamazing said:

You and others here and on the left everywhere throw around the word "traitor" very cavalierly for a 33 year general with 3 bronze service stars. He did nothing anywhere near justifying being called a traitor. They bankrupted him and his family and threatened to throw his son in prison, too, so he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI, something Comey, McCabe and Strzok were all found guilty of and have served zero time in custody. Only in upper echelon FBI, they delicately call it "lacking candor." What a joke. Where you find "traitor" and "selling his country out" based on what he pleaded to is beyond me. Anything to tar and feather anyone associated with Trump for the blowback on him, I guess.
Sad to see you side with someone like Michael Flynn who was an incredible risk to national security but it shows where your priorities are.

Flynn lied to everyone. In addition to the Russia stuff, he was a foreign agent of Turkey (but didn't register as such until after he got caught) and as a former general he of course should have known better. He was a massive security risk and even if that weren't the case, he exhibited incredibly poor judgment.

The fact that Trump thought it was a good idea to put someone like Flynn (who Obama warned him about) as his national security adviser was, let's be honest, totally on-brand for Trump but not something that anyone who cares about US interests should approve of.

Flynn was incredibly fortunate that the government allowed him to plead down his crimes in exchange for cooperation, but to pretend like his crimes were limited to lying to the FBI is laughable. He's a crook and he should be locked up for a long time, as should anyone who holds a position of trust in government and sells us out for foreign interests.
Seriously? Articulate for us all why Flynn was "an incredible risk to national security." That's nonsense. Nothing he's accused of doing did anything to put our country at an incredible national security risk.

Obama screwed Trump by throwing in the Russia sanctions on his way out the door to hamstring the Trump administration after claiming that "no credible person could claim that Russia could impact our elections in any meaningful way" when he thought Clinton would win. Flynn was also on Obama's *&%^ list for opposing his policies on Iran. He became persona non grata with the Obama administration from that point on.
bearister
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bearlyamazing said:

bearister said:

Questions for bearlyamazing (to see if we have any common ground):

1. Do you think the Russians took any steps to interfere in the 2016 Election?

2. If you answered # 1 "Yes" do you think the Russians did so to increase trump's chances of winning?

3. Do you believe that persons associated with trump or the trump campaign had meetings with Russians in the run up to the Election?

4. If you answered # 3 "Yes," what is your belief regarding the subject matter(s) discussed in those meetings?

5. Why did several people associated with trump or his campaign plead guilty to lying to the FBI?

6. Do you believe that trump is a serial liar?

7. Do you believe that in certain instances there is a direct link between trump's tweets and policies and the value of the stock market moving up or down?

8. If you answered # 7 "Yes,," do you acknowledge that the possibility exists that trump, his family and associates may be benefiting from this link in the form of timed stock trades?

9. Do you believe that trump business interests have directly benefitted as a result of trump holding the office of POTUS?

10. Why do you think trump froze the aid to the Ukraine?

11. If you could choose anyone to be POTUS, who would you select?


I'm not going to play that game......
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Professor Turgeson Bear
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bearister said:

bearlyamazing said:

bearister said:

Questions for bearlyamazing (to see if we have any common ground):

1. Do you think the Russians took any steps to interfere in the 2016 Election?

2. If you answered # 1 "Yes" do you think the Russians did so to increase trump's chances of winning?

3. Do you believe that persons associated with trump or the trump campaign had meetings with Russians in the run up to the Election?

4. If you answered # 3 "Yes," what is your belief regarding the subject matter(s) discussed in those meetings?

5. Why did several people associated with trump or his campaign plead guilty to lying to the FBI?

6. Do you believe that trump is a serial liar?

7. Do you believe that in certain instances there is a direct link between trump's tweets and policies and the value of the stock market moving up or down?

8. If you answered # 7 "Yes,," do you acknowledge that the possibility exists that trump, his family and associates may be benefiting from this link in the form of timed stock trades?

9. Do you believe that trump business interests have directly benefitted as a result of trump holding the office of POTUS?

10. Why do you think trump froze the aid to the Ukraine?

11. If you could choose anyone to be POTUS, who would you select?


I'm not going to play that game......

Unit2Sucks
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bearlyamazing said:

Seriously? Articulate for us all why Flynn was "an incredible risk to national security."


Sure, when you answer Bearister's questions.
bearlyamazing
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Unit2Sucks said:

bearlyamazing said:

Seriously? Articulate for us all why Flynn was "an incredible risk to national security."

Sure, when you answer Bearister's questions.
Sure, when each of you pledge to answer a list of questions I put together, which will be never.

What I did answer is far more than you all would answer. Besides, you're the one who called Flynn a traitor and an incredible risk to national security with only the flimsiest of excuses to do so.
Professor Turgeson Bear
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bearlyamazing said:


Obama screwed Trump by throwing in the Russia sanctions on his way out the door to hamstring the Trump administration after claiming that "no credible person could claim that Russia could impact our elections in any meaningful way" when he thought Clinton would win.
Tiime to fact-check:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/politics/fact-check-trump-claims-obama-did-nothing-russia/index.html
bearister
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bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

bearlyamazing said:

Seriously? Articulate for us all why Flynn was "an incredible risk to national security."

Sure, when you answer Bearister's questions.
Sure, when each of you pledge to answer a list of questions I put together, which will be never.

What I did answer is far more than you all would answer. Besides, you're the one who called Flynn a traitor and an incredible risk to national security with only the flimsiest of excuses to do so.


If your questions are as simple and straight forward as mine, I will take a crack at them.
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bearlyamazing
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Oops

BrunoBear
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bearlyamazing said:

Oops


You should watch your own video links. You might realize they aren't making the case you think they are.
Cal88
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Iran's missile salvo actually hit targets inside the US base, including sleeping quarters. The occupants must have had advance warning, or else there would have been a lot of casualties.



U.S. military officials say the barrage of rockets lasted more than two hours early in the morning on Jan. 8. Hours before, the U.S. received warnings that one of four or five bases in Iraq would be attacked. Those warnings allowed the military to disperse personnel on the base and sent them rushing to bunkers. About 15 minutes before the attack, personnel at the base were warned the missiles had been launched.


Because of the precautions, no one was killed or seriously injured, but the missiles heavily damaged living areas and left huge craters.

https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2020/01/14/796219386/the-aftermath-of-irans-missile-attack-on-an-iraqi-base-housing-u-s-troops

Iran has thousands of accurate short and medium range missiles that could hit US targets in Iraq and the Gulf countries, an all-out war will result in a large number of casualties.
Unit2Sucks
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It was a warning not to start a war and amazingly it worked.
bearlyamazing
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BrunoBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Oops


You should watch your own video links. You might realize they aren't making the case you think they are.
I watch my own videos and know exactly what he's talking about. They flipped that one around and used it plenty, too, when they lost, like Hillary and Stacey Abrams. Maybe Barry should tell them to quit whining, too.

You can't have it both ways.
Professor Turgeson Bear
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bearlyamazing said:

BrunoBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Oops


You should watch your own video links. You might realize they aren't making the case you think they are.
I watch my own videos and know exactly what he's talking about. They flipped that one around and used it plenty, too, when they lost, like Hillary and Stacey Abrams. Maybe Barry should tell them to quit whining, too.

You can't have it both ways.
LOLOLOL. He nailed you dude. You're too stupid to even realize how bad he exposed your inability to think for yourself.
OaktownBear
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

bearlyamazing said:

BrunoBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Oops


You should watch your own video links. You might realize they aren't making the case you think they are.
I watch my own videos and know exactly what he's talking about. They flipped that one around and used it plenty, too, when they lost, like Hillary and Stacey Abrams. Maybe Barry should tell them to quit whining, too.

You can't have it both ways.
LOLOLOL. He nailed you dude. You're too stupid to even realize how bad he exposed your inability to think for yourself.


This is like putting up a video that discredits alien abductions to argue that child abductions don't happen
bearister
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Trump's Code of Dishonor


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/opinion/trump-edward-gallagher.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/opinion/trump-edward-gallagher.amp.html
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Cal88
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Thomas Friedman has no leg to stand on here, he is huge hypocrite and much more of a war criminal that a bona fide military creep like Gallagher. Friedman was a huge advocate for the Iraq invasion and knew full well that a lot of eggs would be broken in the process. He and neocon public opinion manipulators like Judith Miller have a lot more blood on their hand than any crooked jarhead.
bearister
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Cal88 said:

Thomas Friedman has no leg to stand on here, he is huge hypocrite and much more of a war criminal that a bona fide military creep like Gallagher. Friedman was a huge advocate for the Iraq invasion and knew full well that a lot of eggs would be broken in the process. He and neocon public opinion manipulators like Judith Miller have a lot more blood on their hand than any crooked jarhead.


Well, you make a valid point, although I'm not sure his hypocrisy invalidates all his opinions until the end of time.
Cheney twisting George Tenent's arm to cook the intelligence justifying the Invasion, and then fooling General Powell into selling it misled a lot of people into initially supporting the war.*
Those that weren't fooled took a beating. Congresswoman Barbara Lee was vilified as a traitor, and Pat Buchanan was called anti Semitic for this piece:

Whose War? | The American Conservative


https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

* https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/etc/script.html
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dajo9
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As Paul Krugman said, it is better for your career to be wrong in the conventional way than it is to be right
B.A. Bearacus
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Unit2Sucks
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Let's hope congress gets to the bottom of this - is Trey Gowdy ready to come out of retirement?
Cal88
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bearister said:

Cal88 said:

Thomas Friedman has no leg to stand on here, he is huge hypocrite and much more of a war criminal that a bona fide military creep like Gallagher. Friedman was a huge advocate for the Iraq invasion and knew full well that a lot of eggs would be broken in the process. He and neocon public opinion manipulators like Judith Miller have a lot more blood on their hand than any crooked jarhead.


Well, you make a valid point, although I'm not sure his hypocrisy invalidates all his opinions until the end of time.
Cheney twisting George Tenent's arm to cook the intelligence justifying the Invasion, and then fooling General Powell into selling it misled a lot of people into initially supporting the war.*
Those that weren't fooled took a beating. Congresswoman Barbara Lee was vilified as a traitor, and Pat Buchanan was called anti Semitic for this piece:

Whose War? | The American Conservative


https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

* https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/etc/script.html

Good reads, thanks, and yes, Barbara Lee is awesome.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

bearister said:

Cal88 said:

Thomas Friedman has no leg to stand on here, he is huge hypocrite and much more of a war criminal that a bona fide military creep like Gallagher. Friedman was a huge advocate for the Iraq invasion and knew full well that a lot of eggs would be broken in the process. He and neocon public opinion manipulators like Judith Miller have a lot more blood on their hand than any crooked jarhead.


Well, you make a valid point, although I'm not sure his hypocrisy invalidates all his opinions until the end of time.
Cheney twisting George Tenent's arm to cook the intelligence justifying the Invasion, and then fooling General Powell into selling it misled a lot of people into initially supporting the war.*
Those that weren't fooled took a beating. Congresswoman Barbara Lee was vilified as a traitor, and Pat Buchanan was called anti Semitic for this piece:

Whose War? | The American Conservative


https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

* https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/etc/script.html

Good reads, thanks, and yes, Barbara Lee is awesome.


Barbara Lee, in a million years, wouldn't support Trump. She voted for Hillary over Bernie and Trump in 2016.
bearister
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I must be losing it. Who suggested Lee would support tRump?
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sycasey
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bearister said:

I must be losing it. Who suggested Lee would support tRump?
His point is that Cal88 did, but also now says he loves Barbara Lee.

Some people have unusual politics.
kelly09
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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BearForce2
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BearForce2
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