White Guilt Cause and Effect Explained

1,738 Views | 49 Replies | Last: 4 days ago by smh
Matthew Patel
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Short video synopsis:

The programs that we have been promoting to assist blacks are really more about insulating us from criticism than they are about providing genuine help.

BearForce2
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There's white guilt and there's fake white guilt, both from the left. Hard to tell between the two, probably because it's mostly fake.

Joe Biden probably doesn't feel guilty at all because he thinks he's black.


going4roses
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Meritorious Manumission.
hanky1
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The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.
Big C
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hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.
BearForce2
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hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.
Nigerian immigrants are an immigrant success story.

https://medium.com/@joecarleton/why-nigerian-immigrants-are-the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-23a7ea5a0832


Speaking of Nigerians, my former boss at a start-up was a Nigerian-American, a very creative guy. I think Joe Igber is a Nigerian-American, one my favorite all-time Cal players, masters in engineering from Cal, owner of his own consulting firm. I don't know how he played football and took engineering courses at the same time.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-igber-bb2ab31a0
BearForce2
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Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.

82gradDLSdad
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https://medium.com/@joecarleton/why-nigerian-immigrants-are-the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-23a7ea5a0832

There's a lot of good advice here for prospective parents. I would do things differently if I could do it over. And I had one kid graduate from UC Davis with good grades... and one who didn't.

Two parent families who support their kids unconditionally but with some demanding goals are the most important factor in any society. Now how you build that into your citizens is the trick.
okaydo
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Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

Methinks hanky doesn't know the definition of a "systematic."
calbear93
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82gradDLSdad said:

https://medium.com/@joecarleton/why-nigerian-immigrants-are-the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-23a7ea5a0832

There's a lot of good advice here for prospective parents. I would do things differently if I could do it over. And I had one kid graduate from UC Davis with good grades... and one who didn't.

Two parent families who support their kids unconditionally but with some demanding goals are the most important factor in any society. Now how you build that into your citizens is the trick.
This is the main reason why I don't think handouts or reparation works. If there is one glaring and insipid cancer from our shameful legacy of racism is the harm it has done to the culture of certain population where lack of hope created deterioration of families, minimizing value of education, and glorification of crime perpetuating more imprisonment, stereotype, and dehumanizing apathy of criminals to other people's suffering because the society has emphasized how it is everyone else's fault so who cares who they hurt. And if we think laws or government can reverse any of those things, they have not been paying attention to the perpetuation of the struggle in the inner cities like Chicago, Detroit, East LA, etc. despite liberal policies and mayors. That is why I think there has to be accountability by the community for their own solution (even if they were not the main origination of the problem) and there has to be less talk and more action by those who "really" care (not the woke progressive twitters and posters whose action ends in tweeting and vandalizing buildings in black neighborhood) to get their hands dirty and try to change at least one life by mentoring and providing some gap in guidance. That is why we need to implement the importance of two parent families, parenting, accountability and hope through hard work instead of despair through blaming others. The success of immigrants shatters the moronic fallacies of idiot racists on both sides who think color of the skin determines character or ability. If there is anything that we should be doing as a society is changing the mentality that there is no hope, that those struggling are at the mercy of the white society or government, or that since others are to blame, it is OK to cause harm to others since the society is the enemy.
Matthew Patel
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calbear93 said:

82gradDLSdad said:

https://medium.com/@joecarleton/why-nigerian-immigrants-are-the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-23a7ea5a0832

There's a lot of good advice here for prospective parents. I would do things differently if I could do it over. And I had one kid graduate from UC Davis with good grades... and one who didn't.

Two parent families who support their kids unconditionally but with some demanding goals are the most important factor in any society. Now how you build that into your citizens is the trick.
This is the main reason why I don't think handouts or reparation works. If there is one glaring and insipid cancer from our shameful legacy of racism is the harm it has done to the culture of certain population where lack of hope created deterioration of families, minimizing value of education, and glorification of crime perpetuating more imprisonment, stereotype, and dehumanizing apathy of criminals to other people's suffering because the society has emphasized how it is everyone else's fault so who cares who they hurt. And if we think laws or government can reverse any of those things, they have not been paying attention to the perpetuation of the struggle in the inner cities like Chicago, Detroit, East LA, etc. despite liberal policies and mayors. That is why I think there has to be accountability by the community for their own solution (even if they were not the main origination of the problem) and there has to be less talk and more action by those who "really" care (not the woke progressive twitters and posters whose action ends in tweeting and vandalizing buildings in black neighborhood) to get their hands dirty and try to change at least one life by mentoring and providing some gap in guidance. That is why we need to implement the importance of two parent families, parenting, accountability and hope through hard work instead of despair through blaming others. The success of immigrants shatters the moronic fallacies of idiot racists on both sides who think color of the skin determines character or ability. If there is anything that we should be doing as a society is changing the mentality that there is no hope, that those struggling are at the mercy of the white society or government, or that since others are to blame, it is OK to cause harm to others since the society is the enemy.
Big C
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BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loose analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
calbear93
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Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
Big C
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calbear93 said:

Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
1. Regarding why they can't break the cycle, I guess it has become ingrained. Sure, some can break it, but...

2. Are more societal efforts worth it? Maybe, maybe not. See the video at the top of this thread, which is exactly what is being discussed (by that esteemed fountain of knowledge, the Hoover Institution, but still... ).

3. Analogy: "Come-here-as-a-slave" is to "come-here-because-you-want-to" as "assigned-a-job" is to "choose-your-job". Hey, I said it was a "loose" analogy.

Bottom line for all this: It's a highly complex issue and I surely don't know if the theory I posited is right, but Hanky1's observation reeked of ignorance about the subject.
calbear93
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Big C said:

calbear93 said:

Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
1. Regarding why they can't break the cycle, I guess it has become ingrained. Sure, some can break it, but...

2. Are more societal efforts worth it? Maybe, maybe not. See the video at the top of this thread, which is exactly what is being discussed (by that esteemed fountain of knowledge, the Hoover Institution, but still... ).

3. Analogy: "Come-here-as-a-slave" is to "come-here-because-you-want-to" as "assigned-a-job" is to "choose-your-job". Hey, I said it was a "loose" analogy.

Bottom line for all this: It's a highly complex issue and I surely don't know if the theory I posited is right, but Hanky1's observation reeked of ignorance about the subject.
Fair on the first two points.

On the third point, the reason I am still struggling with the analogy is that slavery is not legal and people of all colors are allowed to pursue their own profession. So wondering how the current situation relates to Soviet Union. That's all.
smh
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calbear93 said:

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?
listen do-over.. LISTEN to this young person's heart, and the analogy given, and try'n imagine the world from where she comes from. iirc its her first video..

muting ~60 handles as of june 2020, turnaround is fair play
go bears lets beat the covids; fascists suck BigTime (tnx blue)
i forget the rest of the rest
calbear93
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smh said:

calbear93 said:

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?
listen do-over.. LISTEN to this young person's heart, and the analogy given, and try'n imagine the world from where she comes from. iirc its her first video try..


I don't think there is any disagreement on what the problem is. I think there is vast disagreement on the solution.

I don't think sympathy or empathy does **** other than assuage your own guilt. It doesn't help one other person if not translated to real solution for change. And I don't think handout or cash payment bridges the gap. I think what bridges the gap and what breaks the cycle is investment in the community, investment in the education, investment in mentoring, investment in strong family, and investment in crime prevention that provides safe environment for the next generation who just may break the cycle. Providing despair that the game is rigged so that they will just be angry, blame others, burn **** and demand handout or cash payment is not in any way a dignifying answer to fellow human beings who are trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty and broken culture. And I don't think removing the impacted community from providing part the solution is in any way meaningful.

So, no I don't view myself or any white person as the only possible savior for the the sympathetic fellow Americans who just can't get out of the cycle of poverty. I view this poverty resulting from legacy of systemic racism in the black community as I view any other poor segment of our country, whether black or white, and I have the same sympathy for the poor members of our society who are stuck in the vicious cycle of poverty, whether they are black, Asian or white. And I believe the black community, as well as fellow Americans who, in the sense of humanity contributing and filling the gap directly or through programs offered by the government (coaching at the local Boys & Girls club, providing tutoring, etc.), must work on breaking the cycle by providing hope, training, education, and safety. Crime and poverty are the two biggest reasons for this vicious cycle. Defunding the police (as opposed to reforming the police) and handout for bare minimum will not breaking the cycle. Self-serving tweets and retweets are not breaking the cycle.
dimitrig
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The Africans who make it to the US are generally very well educated and often wealthy as well. They are not representative of most Africans and certainly not of African-Americans.

When I was a freshman at Cal my Chem 1A lab partner was a very beautiful girl from Ethiopia. Her speech, her dress, her mannerisms were all very aristocratic. Her English was perfect. She said she was from a wealthy family who sent her abroad to study.

What does her success here in America have to do with anything? She was educated somewhere else and her family made their fortune somewhere else. And you know what, I bet there are still racist idiots that would think she is a lesser person simply because of the color of her skin.

The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.

BearForce2
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BearForce2
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dimitrig said:


The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


The system is set up to oppress minorities? How so? What system?

Many have difficulty succeeding? Actually many have immigrated and have succeeded and more keeping coming.

Poor whites vote against their own self-interest in order to keep minorities down? What does this mean? Voting Republican keeps minorities down and makes them feel better being white?




Matthew Patel
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calbear93 said:

smh said:

calbear93 said:

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?
listen do-over.. LISTEN to this young person's heart, and the analogy given, and try'n imagine the world from where she comes from. iirc its her first video try..


I don't think there is any disagreement on what the problem is. I think there is vast disagreement on the solution.
There is vast disagreement on what the problem is. Just not among your kind.
calbear93
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Matthew Patel said:

calbear93 said:

smh said:

calbear93 said:

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?
listen do-over.. LISTEN to this young person's heart, and the analogy given, and try'n imagine the world from where she comes from. iirc its her first video try..


I don't think there is any disagreement on what the problem is. I think there is vast disagreement on the solution.
There is vast disagreement on what the problem is. Just not among your kind.
My kind? And what is your kind? Deluded pasty white guy sitting behind a computer in the suburbs thinking he is a savior of the black community because he made a donation at a black art museum? Please.
going4roses
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Hmm
dimitrig
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BearForce2 said:

dimitrig said:


The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


The system is set up to oppress minorities? How so? What system?

Many have difficulty succeeding? Actually many have immigrated and have succeeded and more keeping coming.

Poor whites vote against their own self-interest in order to keep minorities down? What does this mean? Voting Republican keeps minorities down and makes them feel better being white?





The system that brought them here in the first place as slaves and then feared them when they were freed. The one that makes it more difficult for them to obtain an education, a home loan, or even just to stay out of jail.

Yes, voting Republican helps keep minorities down and makes poor whites feel better about their situation.


BearForce2
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dimitrig said:


The Africans who make it to the US are generally very well educated and often wealthy as well. They are not representative of most Africans and certainly not of African-Americans.

When I was a freshman at Cal my Chem 1A lab partner was a very beautiful girl from Ethiopia. Her speech, her dress, her mannerisms were all very aristocratic. Her English was perfect. She said she was from a wealthy family who sent her abroad to study.

What does her success here in America have to do with anything? She was educated somewhere else and her family made their fortune somewhere else. And you know what, I bet there are still racist idiots that would think she is a lesser person simply because of the color of her skin.

The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


There are more blacks who immigrated to the U.S. than have come involuntarily on slave ships. But yes, the majority are the descendants of slaves. Are the immigrants and their descendants also oppressed by the system or not part of the conversation?

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/
dimitrig
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BearForce2 said:

dimitrig said:


The Africans who make it to the US are generally very well educated and often wealthy as well. They are not representative of most Africans and certainly not of African-Americans.

When I was a freshman at Cal my Chem 1A lab partner was a very beautiful girl from Ethiopia. Her speech, her dress, her mannerisms were all very aristocratic. Her English was perfect. She said she was from a wealthy family who sent her abroad to study.

What does her success here in America have to do with anything? She was educated somewhere else and her family made their fortune somewhere else. And you know what, I bet there are still racist idiots that would think she is a lesser person simply because of the color of her skin.

The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


There are more blacks who immigrated to the U.S. than have come involuntarily on slave ships. But yes, the majority are the descendants of slaves. Are the immigrants and their descendants also oppressed by the system or not part of the conversation?

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/


The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did. Your article states that: "The U.S. black immigrant population is overwhelmingly made up of adults, reflecting the adult age of migration for most immigrants."

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.



calbear93
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dimitrig said:

BearForce2 said:

dimitrig said:


The Africans who make it to the US are generally very well educated and often wealthy as well. They are not representative of most Africans and certainly not of African-Americans.

When I was a freshman at Cal my Chem 1A lab partner was a very beautiful girl from Ethiopia. Her speech, her dress, her mannerisms were all very aristocratic. Her English was perfect. She said she was from a wealthy family who sent her abroad to study.

What does her success here in America have to do with anything? She was educated somewhere else and her family made their fortune somewhere else. And you know what, I bet there are still racist idiots that would think she is a lesser person simply because of the color of her skin.

The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


There are more blacks who immigrated to the U.S. than have come involuntarily on slave ships. But yes, the majority are the descendants of slaves. Are the immigrants and their descendants also oppressed by the system or not part of the conversation?

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/


The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did.

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.




What about the US? All of it? US is preventing success for everyone? Jut one group? Is it any specific culture? What are you really saying? What is lacking in the US culture that is preventing Americans from succeeding but allowing immigrants to succeed in the same country, same city? Are there laws that discriminate against people who were born here?
dimitrig
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calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did.

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.
What about the US? All of it? US is preventing success for everyone? Jut one group? Is it any specific culture? What are you really saying? What is lacking in the US culture that is preventing Americans from succeeding but allowing immigrants to succeed in the same country, same city? Are there laws that discriminate against people who were born here?

Think real hard about reasons why adult immigrants to the US succeed at a higher rate than those born here.

If you do so you will answer your own questions.

calbear93
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dimitrig said:

calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did.

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.
What about the US? All of it? US is preventing success for everyone? Jut one group? Is it any specific culture? What are you really saying? What is lacking in the US culture that is preventing Americans from succeeding but allowing immigrants to succeed in the same country, same city? Are there laws that discriminate against people who were born here?

Think real hard about reasons why adult immigrants to the US succeed at a higher rate than those born here.

If you do so you will answer your own questions.


That is a cop out. Why don't you write the reason?
dimitrig
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calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did.

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.
What about the US? All of it? US is preventing success for everyone? Jut one group? Is it any specific culture? What are you really saying? What is lacking in the US culture that is preventing Americans from succeeding but allowing immigrants to succeed in the same country, same city? Are there laws that discriminate against people who were born here?

Think real hard about reasons why adult immigrants to the US succeed at a higher rate than those born here.

If you do so you will answer your own questions.


That is a cop out. Why don't you write the reason?

There are a lot of possible reasons. I already hinted that they are generally wealthier and better educated, which is why they made their way here to begin with.

Why don't you tell me your explanation?

calbear93
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dimitrig said:

calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

calbear93 said:

dimitrig said:

The immigrants (most of whom are Caribbean and hence also the descendants of slaves) by definition grew up outside of our system - or else their parents did.

Their success only proves that it is something endemic to the US that is holding their peers back.
What about the US? All of it? US is preventing success for everyone? Jut one group? Is it any specific culture? What are you really saying? What is lacking in the US culture that is preventing Americans from succeeding but allowing immigrants to succeed in the same country, same city? Are there laws that discriminate against people who were born here?

Think real hard about reasons why adult immigrants to the US succeed at a higher rate than those born here.

If you do so you will answer your own questions.


That is a cop out. Why don't you write the reason?

There are a lot of possible reasons. Why don't you tell me your explanation?


I wrote what I believe to be the reason above, and why I think the liberal solution of blaming society and thinking the white community will provide the answer are bull***** While I acknowledge the legacy of years of racism, I disagree on the solution. You instead make some vague "think about it' as your answer. If it is so obvious, spell it out. Why are they less educated and less wealthy relative to others? Is the solution proving a handout? What is it?
BearForce2
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dimitrig said:

BearForce2 said:

dimitrig said:


The system in the US is setup not only to oppress minorities but the poor as well. It is no mystery why so many have difficulty succeeding within it - even poor whites that vote against their own self-interests because as long as they can keep minorities down they are one step above the bottom rung of the ladder - or at least feel like it.


The system is set up to oppress minorities? How so? What system?

Many have difficulty succeeding? Actually many have immigrated and have succeeded and more keeping coming.

Poor whites vote against their own self-interest in order to keep minorities down? What does this mean? Voting Republican keeps minorities down and makes them feel better being white?





The system that brought them here in the first place as slaves and then feared them when they were freed. The one that makes it more difficult for them to obtain an education, a home loan, or even just to stay out of jail.

Yes, voting Republican helps keep minorities down and makes poor whites feel better about their situation.




We''ll have to disagree, In a twisted way, by constantly pandering to blacks and reminding them of their inferiority, white liberals are oppressing them. Maybe some of that is due to white guilt since the Democrats are the party of slavery and Jim Crow. It's also a way to insulate themselves from criticism just like the video said above.

You mention a nebulous system that is the oppressing force. I think you wanted to say America.

sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Big C said:

calbear93 said:

Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
1. Regarding why they can't break the cycle, I guess it has become ingrained. Sure, some can break it, but...

2. Are more societal efforts worth it? Maybe, maybe not. See the video at the top of this thread, which is exactly what is being discussed (by that esteemed fountain of knowledge, the Hoover Institution, but still... ).

3. Analogy: "Come-here-as-a-slave" is to "come-here-because-you-want-to" as "assigned-a-job" is to "choose-your-job". Hey, I said it was a "loose" analogy.

Bottom line for all this: It's a highly complex issue and I surely don't know if the theory I posited is right, but Hanky1's observation reeked of ignorance about the subject.
And it's more than just slavery. The whole thing didn't end there. We should be clear about the full scope of it.

We had the failure of reconstruction and the rise of the KKK, race riots, voter suppression, Jim Crow, the creation of the suburbs and redlining, all of it has contributed. If your family who has been in America for generations remembers all of this and has passed that knowledge down . . . perhaps that has a broad effect on the African-American community and their motivations towards success? Yes, I'm sure certain individuals can overcome those effects, but we're talking about the broad strokes here.
calbear93
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey said:

Big C said:

calbear93 said:

Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
1. Regarding why they can't break the cycle, I guess it has become ingrained. Sure, some can break it, but...

2. Are more societal efforts worth it? Maybe, maybe not. See the video at the top of this thread, which is exactly what is being discussed (by that esteemed fountain of knowledge, the Hoover Institution, but still... ).

3. Analogy: "Come-here-as-a-slave" is to "come-here-because-you-want-to" as "assigned-a-job" is to "choose-your-job". Hey, I said it was a "loose" analogy.

Bottom line for all this: It's a highly complex issue and I surely don't know if the theory I posited is right, but Hanky1's observation reeked of ignorance about the subject.
And it's more than just slavery. The whole thing didn't end there. We should be clear about the full scope of it.

We had the failure of reconstruction and the rise of the KKK, race riots, voter suppression, Jim Crow, the creation of the suburbs and redlining, all of it has contributed. If your family who has been in America for generations remembers all of this and has passed that knowledge down . . . perhaps that has a broad effect on the African-American community and their motivations towards success? Yes, I'm sure certain individuals can overcome those effects, but we're talking about the broad strokes here.
Again, no one is disputing the problem or the shameful legacy that went beyond slavery. The question, as I noted in my first post, is not whether it exists but what the right solution is.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
calbear93 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

calbear93 said:

Big C said:

BearForce2 said:

Big C said:

hanky1 said:

The funny thing is African immigrants are phenomenally successful in America. It completely blows up the systemic racism argument of the guilt stricken left wing.

No, it probably does more to support it than to "blow it up". You should read up on that issue.

You're free to explain how they're all oppressed.



Okay, one time and then, after that, we'll have to agree to disagree:

The argument, which may have some validity, is that Blacks who came here as slaves did not come by choice and their successive generations haven't been able to break the cycle of oppression, despite the significant societal efforts to improve to their situation. Recent Black immigrants, on the other hand, have made the choice come to the U.S. to establish a better life for themselves, so they are more motivated and bought into the system.

A loosed analogy might be, fifty years ago during the Cold War, an American worker got to choose his/her job or profession, whereas Soviet workers were assigned a job by the State. Which worker is going to be happier and work harder?
Few questions from your bolded statement.

Why have they not been able to break the cycle? And, if they have not been able to break the cycle despite societal efforts to improve the situation, why is more societal efforts the preferred method?

And I don't think your analogy works. Are people still prevented from choosing his/her job like Soviet workers were unable to choose before the breakup of the Soviet Union? If not, how is that an analogy for the current period, whether loose or not?
1. Regarding why they can't break the cycle, I guess it has become ingrained. Sure, some can break it, but...

2. Are more societal efforts worth it? Maybe, maybe not. See the video at the top of this thread, which is exactly what is being discussed (by that esteemed fountain of knowledge, the Hoover Institution, but still... ).

3. Analogy: "Come-here-as-a-slave" is to "come-here-because-you-want-to" as "assigned-a-job" is to "choose-your-job". Hey, I said it was a "loose" analogy.

Bottom line for all this: It's a highly complex issue and I surely don't know if the theory I posited is right, but Hanky1's observation reeked of ignorance about the subject.
And it's more than just slavery. The whole thing didn't end there. We should be clear about the full scope of it.

We had the failure of reconstruction and the rise of the KKK, race riots, voter suppression, Jim Crow, the creation of the suburbs and redlining, all of it has contributed. If your family who has been in America for generations remembers all of this and has passed that knowledge down . . . perhaps that has a broad effect on the African-American community and their motivations towards success? Yes, I'm sure certain individuals can overcome those effects, but we're talking about the broad strokes here.
Again, no one is disputing the problem or the shameful legacy that went beyond slavery. The question, as I noted in my first post, is not whether it exists but what the right solution is.
Yes, and I would agree that the solutions are probably more complicated than anyone wants to admit.
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