So, today's game was the first game I've been to at CAL in a long time. I do keep up with them on game day either on KGO or just online. I'm glad we won, but the CAL Band is not all that great anymore. I graduated in 1975 and I can't believe that they have not been able to recruit 50 more band members to grow the band and rather than getting better, they are getting worse. Otherwise, we had a good time.

The Band had gotten bigger since you graduated, but people are saying it is smaller again this year. That doesn't surprise me, given COVID. While we all know that college-age, vaccinated people are not really at risk for serious COVID, I can just imagine dozens and dozens of Band members (and potential Band members) deciding to just sit this year out. These young folks have a lot of things going on and bright futures. For many of them, the decision to invest a lot of time playing in the Cal Band in any one year is a tenuous one.

It's a mediocre band that often gets outplayed when good bands visit.

I've been to all home games this year. believe it or not but this was the bands best performance all year. they barely played during the prior games

I thought the band looked great today. Really enjoyed the pre game show.

The band was noticeably smaller today. I hadn't noticed in previous games but it sure did not look good.

Larno said:

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The band was noticeably smaller today. I hadn't noticed in previous games but it sure did not look good.

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size wise it was small but they played very well today. good pre game and half time show and they played actively during the game and it felt really nice.

was it because recruits were present? something else?

It is not a good band guys.

This years band is the smallest I can ever recall in 45 years. Normally, when they come out of the tunnel in wedge formation the corners of the wedge kick the pilons on the goal line. This year, there weren't enough of them to reach that far.

Their musicianship and halftime marching is still good.

But they've forgotten how to play during the game -- a combination of being discouraged to play by Tedford, and not being allowed to play by the idiots in Marketing. But they miss most of the few remaining opportunities afforded to them.

And they've generally gotten sloppy and undisciplined, evidenced by the march up to the stadium. It's a mess.

It's really disappointing.

HateRed said:

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It is not a good band guys.

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We get it lots of band members means good to you

HateRed said:

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It is not a good band guys.

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The attention to detail and discipline have decreased as the academic competition has increased.

Also, there are fewer high schools doing on-the-field marching, and fewer adequately-funded HS music programs.

Also... Economics & Academic Pressure:

Tuition & fees then: Either free, or < $240 per quarter; local living expenses: ~$150/month

Tuition & fees now: $9200 per semester for CA residents ($18,400 /yr); $24,100 per semester ($48,200 /yr) for non-residents; local living expenses: ~$1300/month

When you look at current entry-level salaries, the payback period for the investment in a Bachelor's Degree is potentially infinite.

Unless Mom & Dad are footing the bill, taking out student loans for a 4-year Bachelor's Degree is a very risky investment. You might be able to land a salaried entry-level job that pays $80,000 per year, but to keep that job, you'll need to put in your 55 hours a week -- which works out to $29 per hour.

Bottom lines:

• Fewer students can afford to invest in 4-year degrees;
• Fewer still can afford to take on a challenging curriculum at a top university, where the cost of failure is so high; imagine not having the degree, but still having to pay off the student loans;
• Fewer students can afford the academic risk of playing in the Cal Band, especially if there's any chance that an extra semester (or two) might be needed;
• The economy of the 1970s was infinitely more forgiving for college students than today's economy; the potential downside risk of getting a college education was very low, and the potential rewards were high. Today, the potential downside risk is very high (a student can easily borrow > $100k and still fail to get a degree); though the potential rewards can be extremely high for a few, many will take years, if not decades, to reach the same level of hourly compensation as a union electrician.

No, not at all. They're just not very good anymore. Whatever the reason may be. I know they work hard and put a lot of time and effort into their performances. No ill will. That's just the way I see it.

We should go all in, and play the race card.

So what do you think is not very good with the band? Marching? Selection of music? Sound not loud enough?

I was in the band 68-70. It was one of the smallest bands. Always was glad that the size of the band increased. It is still probably larger then when I was in it. The pre game looked sharp. Corners were turned squarely and the bow looked good. The band has woodwinds which have always reduced the sound.

All the reasons talked about above probably contribute to the perceived reduction in quality.practice has been limited so newbies may not be where they should be at this point in the season. The limiting forced on them by Learfield does not help with repetition necessary to assure everyone is at the top of their game.

Another factor to consider is that the Band gets little help with letting prospective band members into Cal . When Colonico was the director I tried to get my son into Cal and the band requested him. Bob said he usually got students he requested but told me it was not always so anymore. Son had a 3.5gpa from St Ignatius and was denied. Many friends have experienced the same thing with their sons and daughters with even higher gpas being denied. I understand his gpa was too low but other factors should have a bearing. My son ended up with a PHD in Engineering from Santa Cruz.

The pandemic has surely not helped the band but I would not use that as an excuse. Have patience. The band will be better.

It's certainly not loud, in fact it's kind of meek when other bands come to visit. It's small. The marching is not particularly sharp or interesting.

I love the band. I've always thought that band members should get class credit due to both their importance to the football program and the amount of time and energy they must expend. If there's something wrong with their play, I'm too tone deaf to hear it. What I have missed is a few of the songs they used to regularly play for decades at least once per year but some closer to once per game, both traditional Cal football songs like Stanford Jonah and adapted songs. I miss the Cal band renditions of Wayward Son and Separate Ways.

kal kommie said:

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I love the band. I've always thought that band members should get class credit due to both their importance to the football program and the amount of time and energy they must expend. If there's something wrong with their play, I'm too tone deaf to hear it. What I have missed is a few of the songs they used to regularly play for decades at least once per year but some closer to once per game, both traditional Cal football songs like Stanford Jonah and adapted songs. I miss the Cal band renditions of Wayward Son and Separate Ways.

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The Cal Band pregame was great. The post game was great. The halftime was average for the Cal Band.
But I still miss the Cal Band playing as much as they did years ago.

Has the Cal Band declined. Maybe, maybe not. I have seen many ups and downs in my many years of being a Cal fan beginning in 1959 as a HS student.

The piped in music has done a lot to reduce the college-feel of the game. It had also reduced the amount of organized cheering from the rooting section. Hard to compete with blaring piped in music.

GivemTheAxe said:

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kal kommie said:

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I love the band. I've always thought that band members should get class credit due to both their importance to the football program and the amount of time and energy they must expend. If there's something wrong with their play, I'm too tone deaf to hear it. What I have missed is a few of the songs they used to regularly play for decades at least once per year but some closer to once per game, both traditional Cal football songs like Stanford Jonah and adapted songs. I miss the Cal band renditions of Wayward Son and Separate Ways.

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The Cal Band pregame was great. The post game was great. The halftime was average for the Cal Band.
But I still miss the Cal Band playing as much as they did years ago.

Has the Cal Band declined. Maybe, maybe not. I have seen many ups and downs in my many years of being a Cal fan beginning in 1959 as a HS student.

The piped in music has done a lot to reduce the college-feel of the game. It had also reduced the amount of organized cheering from the rooting section. Hard to compete with blaring piped in music.

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Yes the piped in music really takes me out of the game. I usually wear ear buds and listen to Starkey when that crap starts. It is so boring. **** learfield. They have ruined the game.

Love Cal band - as a parent of a kid in high school taking a challenging academic load while participating in marching band I agree it is extremely challenging. Given the lack of institutional support at Cal

Saying they forgot how to play during games, have you even been following how TV and stadium mgmt have completely changed the role of the band at games?

Things will always ebb and flow, help the kids out, don't just throw stones on the interwebs.

Still think it's a great band...have to give the members, like anyone else, time to get back to pre-2020 form...

All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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I didnt go to Cal just to play in the band. The school came first. ROTC Second. Band third.

philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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When I am watching the Cal Band's pregame show (sadly missing earlier this year), I am certainly not thinking that they look like a "glorified high school band", or that they look less professional than other Pac 12 bands.

Many other conference schools have a Music major that has a performance emphasis. Cal's does not. That right there limits the pool of prospective band members. Most all Cal Band members came to Cal for Cal, then decided to play in the Band to stay active musically and to be involved in a rewarding campus activity that augments their college experience.

There was academic credit when I was in the band.

Let me start with this: I love Cal Band. I've followed the band since 1957, and my Dad has a special part in Cal Band history.

Having said that, Cal Band has gotten soft, and gotten weak.

FIrst, let's start with their uniform, which is the best uniform in the nation after only Ohio State and Wisconsin. But in recent years, they've reduced some of it's sharpness. No more epaulets, which gave an extra sharpness and flash to the uniform. The loss of the epaulet has made the uniform (still the best in the Pac by far) a bit more generic in appearance. Second, the band is not very disciplined in their wearing of spats. You NEVER see the Ohio State band look like they've overlooked something in their dress. And for many years, you never saw the Cal band look like they were overlooking something. But in recent years, that has changed. So the lack of epaulets, and the sloppy attention to detail in the uniform have made the band look less sharp in basic appearance.

Second: Halftime performances have become very boring and predicatable. This may not be totally true in fact, but it seems to me like every week it's another tribute to pop culture. There's very little imagination in their shows anymore. In years past they did some fun things like salutes to Rocky and Bullwinkle, James Bond, the 1812 Overture etc. Has anyone ever seen the routine Cal Band did at the Rose Bowl in '59 in conjunction with the card stunts? (I realize I'm dating myself here, but quality is quality regardless of when it's done). I just don't pay much attention to the halftime show anymore. Cal Band pregame is still the best in the nation (even better than Ohio State, though tOSUmb is close behind). And the post-game concert is well worth the wait. But half time? Meh. Meanwhile, Ohio State, Ohio University, Penn State, and even some SEC and Big 12 bands are doing some animation and stunts that are amazing, and darn fun. Baylor did a really cool salute to their basketball team complete with a player dunking the ball. Texas Southern did an amazing danced routine (Cal does this from time to time, but TSU took it to another level). Purdue did a rolling car with a superhero jumping over the car. And week after week Ohio State pulls together something amazing and imaginative. None of these bands (with the exception of Ohio State) is as exciting as the Cal Band. But they have made their half time shows more imaginative and fun to watch for all age groups. Cal used to be a leader in this area. Not so anymore.

Third: As a kid who played both football and band, I used to love watching the Cal Band percussion section. The bass drummers did something that's called "fluorish", which means that they used to twirl their mallets way above their heads. It was so cool. You could see the bass drummers from all the way up at the top of the stadium. Although I eventually picked football over band, I have to admit, I would have loved to be one of those bass drummers twirling those sticks so high. Current band members don't seem to know how to do that anymore. That's a loss as they now look like every other bass drum player......boring. Further, they changed the drum heads to a dark base (no play on words) color, so they are much harder to see or pick out from a distance. The snare drummers once marched as well as the rest of the band because they used high steppers (check out videos of the Penn State band). Now, the drums are down at waist level. And where you could see the sticking with the high steppers, you can't tell if they're doing any sticking at all (sticking means seeing patterns in how they handle their sticks). The Cal percussion looks like every other band these days. But they used to be way better than any band anywhere in the U.S.

Fourth: Sloppiness: I saw a video of the Cal Band march up to CMS on Saturday. I no longer watch march up. But the video showed sloppiness in lines, marching, and overall discipline. I get videos of other bands across the country. Again, I go back to Ohio State, but the historically black colleges, Texas A&M, Penn State.....many other bands doing similar marches to the stadium show the same pride in the march up as they do on the field. Now maybe Saturday was an aberration. But it seems consistent with all the other things.

I have discussed this with past members of Cal Band along with others who used to love watching the band, and everyone thinks Cal Band has gotten lazy in comparison with Cal Bands of the past. They've become inward focused rather than outward (crowd) focused. There was a time when they outclassed other bands by a wide margin. They pick the easy way to do things, rather than the little things that distance great from good. So, no more epaulets, no more bass drum fluorish, no more high sticking, inconsistent uniform appearance......(at least the tuba strut has improved!). Cal Band is still the best in the Pac. But the margin is closing as UW has improved in recent years, and while other bands are pretty boring in comparison, the other bands seem to have more interest in being as excellent as they can be at what they do (with the notable exception of that institution on the peninsula).

I'm not even sure the Cal student section does the "Cal Band Great" yell anymore.

I still love Cal Band. I still think they're the best in the Pac. And I think they're one of the greatest PR organizations the university has. I appreciate that the kids work hard, and with no major reward for what they do. Cal Band IS the Cal Spirit. They are by far the best looking band in the Pac. They are by far the most exciting band in the Pac (with UW coming up fast). They have by far the best traditions in the Pac. However, the margin of difference is closing. And while Cal Band (and again this is just my opinion) is relaxing it's quality, other bands across the country are upping theirs.

So overall, I think Cal Band has been better, and they could be better than they are. I'm just not sure they want to be.

Well said Tom bear. Thanks for posting. I remember those days in the '70's also. The band kicked ass back then. Hope for a return to that time but not holding my breath.

Go Bears!!

socaliganbear said:

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It's certainly not loud, in fact it's kind of meek when other bands come to visit. It's small. The marching is not particularly sharp or interesting.

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Much of the relative volume while playing in the stands is due to location. Visiting bands who play in the corner of the end zone have their sound amplified by the stadium. For the Cal Band's location in the stands, there's no amplification.

The marching fundamentals have been less sharp in recent years. It's harder to maintain a high level of performance without a high level of demand from many people in the band. For a variety of reasons, that might not be happening.

I'll always enjoy the performances, and I'll always support them. I'm grateful that those who do stay in the band and perform still do so.

Yes, the TA in me still notices every little thing! I try not to let it keep me from appreciating the "big picture".

One thing that the Cal Band has done well in recent years, pre-Covid, has been the creation & charting of interesting shows.

But given that the Cal Band is a 100% student-run band, the management of logistics and decision-making for an organization like that, in the midst of Covid, has undoubtedly suffered. The members of the Executive Committee and the Co-Comms are stretched thin in normal years, but with Covid, I can't imagine how difficult it must've been.

philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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Cal academics are the most competitive in the Pac-12.

At Stanfurd, you have top-level students in every class, and everyone holds each other to a high standard, but when nearly everyone get an 'A', the level of intensity & competition isn't there. Plus, you can drop a class a couple days before the final exam. Stanfurd wants its students to succeed. The biggest hurdle is getting in.

When I started at Cal, about 1/3 of the students who entered as Freshmen dropped out, for one reason or another. Cal is "sink or swim". People fail classes all the time. It's always been hard, even in the 1970s, but today, it's way harder.

On top of that, the marching style & fundamentals take a year or two to nail down, and are very time-consuming to maintain. It takes constant harping, criticism, and competition for marching spots to keep a high-step-style band at what you & I would consider "peak performance."

On top of that, it's a student-run band.

One of the reasons why Stanfurd & the Ivy League bands went to the scramble/chaos format is that they can field a band with minimal time commitment, and they can learn a show at the Saturday morning rehearsal, with beer & donuts!

Over the years, as the academics have become more competitive, the time & energy that students have leftover for band has decreased.

One thing that you may have noticed is that on game days, the band members look exhausted -- like they could use a day off, or a decent night's sleep!

I'm not sure that any students come to Cal for the primary purpose of playing in the Cal Band. I would think that for most, the primary purpose is academics.

In short, I think that the Cal Band's marching style, individual-continuity shows, and student-run operation have collided with Cal's increased academic rigor & demands. It looks like a "Something's gotta give" situation, and it looks like what's going to suffer is the attention to detail in on-field performances.

TomBear said:

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I'm not even sure the Cal student section does the "Cal Band Great" yell anymore.

So overall, I think Cal Band has been better, and they could be better than they are. I'm just not sure they want to be.

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Tom,

I also have been a band geek (although not a performer) since high school, and I can confirm all your well-thought-out comments.

The rally at Sproul always ends with a "Cal Band Great" yell. And the Band always responds with a "Woo!" (for Pavlovian fun, yell at any random Band member and get a response. )

I liked your point about "inward focus". The march up to the stadium has become an opportunity for the band to cavort and caper and try out silly routines for their own amusement. It's positively....dare I say it .. Stanfordian.

Another indicator of a decline in discipline: when the Band assembles at Sather Gate for the march up, the routine used to be: Drum major says "Call to attention!" and the band goes quiet. Drum major yells: "California Band...a ten-hut a ten-hut" and the full Band responds in unison: "HUT ONE TWO". And it was spine tingling.

Now...the whole Band shouts "a ten hut a ten hut hut one two" because they apparently couldn't stop themselves from chiming in. and the moment is diminished.

cbass1 - I'll agree with everything you wrote.

However - what you describe does not happen in a vacuum. If there are increased academic rigors at Cal, is it not safe to assume that the same thing is happening at other top tier universities? Let's take the private schools out of the equation for the moment. Can we say that the same increased academic rigors are also happening at UCLA?

If these increased rigors of academics, extra curricular activities and other life stressors are increasing for the Cal or university student, would it not be a good time to open discussion on the continued feasibility of the Cal Band being student led and run? If what you're saying is true, and the Band is suffering from increased stressors and obligations of the university student, then perhaps we need a bit of a rethink here in terms of the Band's administration and operation.

Call it whatever you want - from comments on this board, the Band seems to be in decline - either because of student and academic demands, covid, changes to game day or general indifference on the part of Athletics or UC Administration. Something needs to change.

Big C said:

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philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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When I am watching the Cal Band's pregame show (sadly missing earlier this year), I am certainly not thinking that they look like a "glorified high school band", or that they look less professional than other Pac 12 bands.

Many other conference schools have a Music major that has a performance emphasis. Cal's does not. That right there limits the pool of prospective band members. Most all Cal Band members came to Cal for Cal, then decided to play in the Band to stay active musically and to be involved in a rewarding campus activity that augments their college experience.

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If that is the case, and we are a top tier university, why do we not give this type of academic credit for band performance? Has this question been asked by the Band membership to the music department?

Of course, students come to Cal for Cal - academics, student life.

This was my first in person football game since the 2019 Bowl game and I was just happy to see the band. Some return to "normalcy."

Was in Cal Band and did it without class credit or class sign up priority (I think most schools give these to their marching band members). If I did Cal again I wouldn't join without these. I don't think the "memories" make up for the time sink without real benefits and I assume that is why Cal Band has trouble recruiting.

philly1121 said:

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Big C said:

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philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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When I am watching the Cal Band's pregame show (sadly missing earlier this year), I am certainly not thinking that they look like a "glorified high school band", or that they look less professional than other Pac 12 bands.

Many other conference schools have a Music major that has a performance emphasis. Cal's does not. That right there limits the pool of prospective band members. Most all Cal Band members came to Cal for Cal, then decided to play in the Band to stay active musically and to be involved in a rewarding campus activity that augments their college experience.

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If that is the case, and we are a top tier university, why do we not give this type of academic credit for band performance? Has this question been asked by the Band membership to the music department?

Of course, students come to Cal for Cal - academics, student life.

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I agree with you that some serious questions should be raised and considered.

Regarding academic credit, I'm not sure that a few units that are not in students' majors would make much of a difference, but it's something to think about. Another possibility would be $$$, perhaps in the form of reduced tuition (somehow).

People on this thread (and others) have referenced the UCLA Band as being being better than the Cal Band lately. I know they are bigger and sound louder (there's that Music Performance major again). I will admit to not having seen much of the UCLA Band this century, but back when I knew them better, I was never too impressed. Perhaps a study should be done of what they do well and how they do it.

Big C said:

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philly1121 said:

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Big C said:

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philly1121 said:

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All this may be true and probably is. But why is it that other P12 teams can have a great band that has numbers, is loud and looks professional? Let's face it, Cal Band is a glorified high school band.

I'll concede that if academics, lack of recruitment or costs are a factor - why would they even go to Cal if they don't get any institutional support to play if playing an instrument is one of the main reasons they want to come to Cal?

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When I am watching the Cal Band's pregame show (sadly missing earlier this year), I am certainly not thinking that they look like a "glorified high school band", or that they look less professional than other Pac 12 bands.

Many other conference schools have a Music major that has a performance emphasis. Cal's does not. That right there limits the pool of prospective band members. Most all Cal Band members came to Cal for Cal, then decided to play in the Band to stay active musically and to be involved in a rewarding campus activity that augments their college experience.

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If that is the case, and we are a top tier university, why do we not give this type of academic credit for band performance? Has this question been asked by the Band membership to the music department?

Of course, students come to Cal for Cal - academics, student life.

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I agree with you that some serious questions should be raised and considered.

Regarding academic credit, I'm not sure that a few units that are not in students' majors would make much of a difference, but it's something to think about. Another possibility would be $$$, perhaps in the form of reduced tuition (somehow).

People on this thread (and others) have referenced the UCLA Band as being being better than the Cal Band lately. I know they are bigger and sound louder (there's that Music Performance major again). I will admit to not having seen much of the UCLA Band this century, but back when I knew them better, I was never too impressed. Perhaps a study should be done of what they do well and how they do it.

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Other than the size of the band, I wouldn't want Cal to duplicate anything that UCLA does. Their band looks very high-school like on the field. However, I'd like to know what they do to get more people to join the band. Do they give academic credits or special perks?