The Problems With Asking For Patience From Cal Fans

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BearlyCareAnymore
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This is a very long post. If you are a TLDR person I get it. Stop now.

Recently there is a consistent theme of Cal and its surrogates essentially asking Cal fans to be patient with Cal generally and specifically with Rich Lyons and Ron Rivera. I get that. I really do. However, I think there are real issues with that ask that are just not being addressed.

I'm going to address a few points from Greg's post and some others as well. I'm doing a new thread because Greg's substantive points were embedded in a thread about board etiquette and the topic really deserves its own discussion. I appreciate Greg laying out his substantive view of the situation and everyone should go read his post.

Recent signs that Cal takes football seriously:

The Regents hired Rich Lyons and part of his vetting process was based on his knowledge and ideas about athletics

Problem number one with this. And this is a running theme. UC is very opaque about their processes and frankly, everything. They did not make this public, and even if they did, I don't know what that really means. What are Lyons' ideas? What did they like about them? How much leeway are they giving him to implement them. Are they willing to cut through process to enact them faster?

Problem number two with this. And this is another running theme. There is not much trust right now on that when I hear similar themes with every change of regime that this time is different. Especially when combined with problem number 1 that there is very little transparency about what is actually being done. I acknowledge that there have been public facing steps. I will address those below.

Problem number three and third running theme. While they have been few and far between, Cal has taken positive steps before. I 100% believe that this is one of those times. And that is great. The problem is, even when Cal has made progress in the past, they are changes that would have been great 10 or 20 years earlier, but they are obsolete on arrival. I have to be honest, I suspect that is still the case.

Donations are way up and the amount of money being spent on Football relative to our peers is significantly improved.

Again no transparency on what that actually means. How much are we spending? We were very, very, very far behind our peers. I 100% believe our donations are up and significantly. I don't have confidence that Cal truly understands what our peers spent 2 years ago, 1 year ago, and today. Or that this is a constantly increasing number. In the article I posted about Indiana, they indicated that their football spend had been basically on the bottom of the Big10 and the year they hired Cignetti, their spending was higher than the median spend in the conference. Are we at or above the median spend for football for our conference? Do we know? Again, great that we are making progress, but there is no indication where we actually are. Based on the past, I'm dubious it is where we need to be.

Lyons and Rivera have big ambitions and have set a high bar and they have been explicit about that.

They have been explicit. 6 games is disappointing. Chancellor said 8 wins is good. Rivera said 8 or 9 is good. That is not a high bar. And further it is a lower bar than chancellors, AD's and coaches have talked about before. It used to consistently be conference championships. Specifically that was said when Dykes was hired. And with that bar we've gone 16 years without a winning record in conference. So I don't understand how a bar of 8 wins is supposed to excite the fan base.

Bottom line is, we've heard a lot of words without a lot of data or tangible promises. Cal fans are not in the meetings. We can only see what we can see. And Cal and its surrogates have said these things before.

But we have seen a couple of things. Mainly Knowlton retiring and Rivera being hired. And we have also seen Wilcox retained. My issue here is even those things have taken way too long and do not indicate fundamental changes that bring Cal in line with its peers. Let's do some timeline comparisons.

On September 27, Penn State was ranked 3rd in the country. On October 4, they were ranked 7th in the country. On October 12, their coach was fired. 8 days from top ten to fired.

On September 27, LSU was ranked 4th in the country. On October 26, their coach was fired. One month from top 5 to fired.

Okay, but Cal can't do that. Too much bureaucracy. Too many hoops to jump through. It just takes longer.

Well, On August 30, UCLA played their first game of the season. On September 14, their coach was fired. 2 weeks. Why is UCLA different? We live in the same bureaucracy.

Compare to the new regime at Cal.

April 11, 2024, Rich Lyons is named next chancellor. He has been on campus during the entire Cal career of Jim Knowlton and Justin Wilcox. He is an avid sports fan and so has had a front seat to their performance. He knows with Jim Knowlton he is inheriting an AD that has presided over a horrible basketball program and a bad football program. Knowlton gave a ridiculous extension to a mediocre to bad football coach. He failed in his duty of care to Cal athletes in the McKeever situation putting Cal in a very bad legal situation. I would think if sports is that important that he would be ready to hit the ground running on that.

7/1/2024 Rich Lyons starts as chancellor.

On general athletics:

There is no reason why Knowlton should have lasted beyond 8/1/2024. Picking up the phone and saying "You're fired. We'll negotiate the buyout tomorrow" takes 10 seconds. If sports was important it would have been done.

6/16/2025 Knowlton retires. 11 and a half months after Lyons started as chancellor. I'm not necessarily blaming Lyons. What I'm saying is it should have been clear to him before he started that Knowlton had to go immediately. It may have been. But either it wasn't and it took him months to figure that out or the process took 11 and a half months. Either way, if we want to be competitive, we can't take 11.5 months to fire Knowlton. See UCLA.

Other issue. He retired. I have no desire to kick the guy on the way out the door, but you can't send that message. You can say "no longer the AD". You can say "mutually agreed to part ways". You can't make it sound like his idea.

Bigger issue. No succession plan even though this should have been obvious for 11.5 months. As SFGate said Cal replaced scandal ridden AD with deputy AD's involved in all the same scandals. Announced they will be co-AD's for at least a year and that there will be a full year of transition to an undefined "new leadership structure" and since then no indication of a job search or what they are doing to replace the role.

On purely football:

11/30/2024. Wilcox finishes the regular season at 6-6. The last time he beat a winning FBS team was 2022. The last time he beat a team that finished with a winning record in a P4 conference was 2021. He has 8 losing conference records. It should be clear to Lyons that he needs to be fired. You don't wait to change your AD etc. to fire a failing football coach. Like with Knowlton, either he doesn't know Wilcox is failing or the process to fire him is too cumbersome or the money isn't there to fire him. Any of those are a big problem

March 20, 2025 Rivera named GM but Knowlton retained. Unclear for months what Rivera's role/authority is. This is all clear when Knowlton retires, although the process leaves open the possibility that Cal was dragged kicking and screaming by donor protests rather than it actually chose to push Knowlton out and give Ron the keys. Messaging matters. It should have been clear.

To be clear, it is not feasible to fire your football coach in March. Wilcox coaching in 2025 is not on Rivera. Until…

September 20, 2025, Cal gets abused by a Mountain West team in what has to be top 5 most humiliating losses in Cal football history. That Wilcox made it to September 27th is a huge problem. If you ask me to guess the number of other P4 schools that would allow a coach with Wilcox's record to have a defeat like that against a non-P4 opponent and still have his job at the end of the week, I'd truly guess zero. I'd be very confident it is fewer than 5. That absolutely can't happen. I'm sorry, from September 21 it is on the Rivera regime that Wilcox is still here. Maybe he wanted to fire him and couldn't. I don't know. But he needed to be fired after that game for us to have any credibility. Instead…

9/23/25 3 days later Rivera goes on local radio and when asked about Cal fan frustration says:

"That [Cal fan's mentality] is part of the problem. The mentality. You have to change your mind and stick to that. You can't sit there and go 'Oh, everything's great, it's wonderful and then something bad happens and you go the other way. You have to continue to believe and if you don't believe, get out of it. Okay. Get out of it. And that's the thing everyone has to understand."

I'm sorry. You can't say that. No one thought everything was great and you cannot blame Cal fans for questioning the program after SDSU. You can't tell them they just have to believe at that point.

Further troubling is the idea being expressed, including by Rivera, that we need to see if Wilcox can succeed if given better administrative support. I'm sorry. You don't need to "be fair" to coaches. Indiana knows they didn't give the prior coach enough support. They fired him anyway because they needed a whole new start. Tough luck. We don't need to prove Wilcox is a bad coach. The results weren't there.

And one last point from Greg to counter:

Quote:

BUT. HERE"S THE REALITY - The ONLY THING that really matters is how capable is the coaching staff and how talented is the roster of the Cal Football Team in 2026. That's it. The rest is just noise. Sure, you can have some PR and marketing wins or losses between now and knowing whether the above is true, but it's ephemeral and in the end insignificant.


I would say that in December 2024 the only thing that mattered is how capable the coaching staff and how talented the Cal football team would be in 2025. We are where we are in 2025 because of 2024. And that is what matters here. Failing to take action in 2024 is the issue and the Lyons regime had plenty of time to do that.

It seems like at every other school, the chancellor can say "Hey, coach. Your tie is ugly today. You're fired. We'll negotiate the buyout tomorrow" It seems like at Cal the chancellor can say "Hey coach. You've been caught red handed as a serial killer. We are going to do an 18 month investigation, and you might be fired then. Just so you know."

To sum up, have we improved? I absolutely believe we have. But it doesn't look like enough. We can't judge just by being better than Cal. Nearly a year for this regime to take action on a horrible AD and what appears to be 2 seasons for this regime to take action on a failed football coach isn't good enough even if it is better than Christ or Dirks. I don't know if it is the chancellor or Rivera or the process, but it just can't take this long or be this difficult when our competitors can do this stuff in days. And you just can't ask fans to be this patient when they see what our peers can do. It is just taking too long, not because I'm impatient, but because we can't compete if these things take this long to enact.
jy1988
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Cal is not like everyone else, and maybe that is why we have to change. And many may not like what we change into. I, for one, am more proud of the fact that we are a learning institution of the highest caliber. I no longer wish to butt heads against FB superpowers willing to spend close to a billion dollars to boost their egos. I've followed Cal FB for over 50 yrs, when it was exciting even when we lost. I could relate to the athletes more back then, than what they've become-gladiators. It's no longer exciting. Coaches like Shaw and Saban saw the writing on the wall. It may not be worth it any longer.
BearlyCareAnymore
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jy1988 said:

Cal is not like everyone else, and maybe that is why we have to change. And many may not like what we change into. I, for one, am more proud of the fact that we are a learning institution of the highest caliber. I no longer wish to butt heads against FB superpowers willing to spend close to a billion dollars to boost their egos. I've followed Cal FB for over 50 yrs, when it was exciting even when we lost. I could relate to the athletes more back then, than what they've become-gladiators. It's no longer exciting. Coaches like Shaw and Saban saw the writing on the wall. It may not be worth it any longer.

I think that is 100% valid, jy. I just hate living in the middle ground where we spend a lot of money and effort, but not enough to succeed. Pick a lane.
TonyTiger
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The bottom line for all to remember, we could be in the (Big 10) making twice as much getting beat by 60 every week by a badly coach Wilcox team but due to the decisions we repeatedly made, were now getting beat by one touchdown by the worst teams in the nation and some are happy. Titanic unfortunately has take on too much water and like in the Movie.
"This Ship Will Sink"

Its Over. Move on.
We've Been Defeated..
annarborbear
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The problem clearly is the buy-out money in the unearned contract extensions issued by Carol Christ to Knowlton and by Knowlton to Wilcox. I guess they cannot say that for whatever the reason. But by not saying it, they can't properly explain the situation.
bearsandgiants
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annarborbear said:

The problem clearly is the buy-out money in the unearned contract extensions issued by Carol Christ to Knowlton and by Knowlton to Wilcox. I guess they cannot say that for whatever the reason. But by not saying it, they don't properly explain the situation.

those things are chump change now. They aren't the problem. The problem is that we ARE spending a bunch of money and still suck, and we only have a short time to fix it. Next coach will be the one to right the ship, or the one who deals the death blow. Hope luck is on our side.
GoCal80
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jy1988 said:

Cal is not like everyone else, and maybe that is why we have to change. And many may not like what we change into. I, for one, am more proud of the fact that we are a learning institution of the highest caliber. I no longer wish to butt heads against FB superpowers willing to spend close to a billion dollars to boost their egos. I've followed Cal FB for over 50 yrs, when it was exciting even when we lost. I could relate to the athletes more back then, than what they've become-gladiators. It's no longer exciting. Coaches like Shaw and Saban saw the writing on the wall. It may not be worth it any longer.

Well said! The college football arms race is out of control. Although I consider myself pretty adaptable in general, I am alienated by too many aspects of college sports today, with the transfer portal at the top of the list. Part of my interest in following Cal sports for nearly 50 years was always watching players develop from season to season. Given the extreme nature of the arms race and plenty of examples of universities (fans) sinking massive amounts of money into their teams with disappointing results, I'm not sure we can or should try to compete. Also, as appealing as it seems, bringing in people from the NFL to oversee college teams is not a guarantee for success, at least at the coaching ranks (Bill Belichick, Coach Prime, and Bill Walsh at Stanford after his success with the 49ers...).
BearlyCareAnymore
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annarborbear said:

The problem clearly is the buy-out money in the unearned contract extensions issued by Carol Christ to Knowlton and by Knowlton to Wilcox. I guess they cannot say that for whatever the reason. But by not saying it, they can't properly explain the situation.


If it's the buyout money, it is still a huge problem that we are that strapped. Especially in Knowlton's case.
GoCal80
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TonyTiger said:

The bottom line for all to remember, we could be in the (Big 10) making twice as much getting beat by 60 every week by a badly coach Wilcox team but due to the decisions we repeatedly made, were now getting beat by one touchdown by the worst teams in the nation and some are happy. Titanic unfortunately has take on too much water and like in the Movie.
"This Ship Will Sink"

Its Over. Move on.
We've Been Defeated..

You mean like UCLA?
Strykur
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It's been 9 ****ing years
annarborbear
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bearsandgiants said:

annarborbear said:

The problem clearly is the buy-out money in the unearned contract extensions issued by Carol Christ to Knowlton and by Knowlton to Wilcox. I guess they cannot say that for whatever the reason. But by not saying it, they don't properly explain the situation.


those things are chump change now. They aren't the problem. The problem is that we ARE spending a bunch of money and still suck, and we only have a short time to fix it. Next coach will be the one to right the ship, or the one who deals the death blow. Hope luck is on our side.

You still have to get the millions in "chump change" from someplace, while still having enough left over to hire the next coach and pay recruits. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the next coach, for 2-3 years, will have to be Rivera.
Econ141
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The way I see it, there is only 3-4 years left until the fate of Cal football has been decided. We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program. Time is too short to debate or second guess the way forward. We are at the point where our only option is to put faith in these two and do our part to put butts in seats and contribute eye balls to viewership numbers. We can't afford to boycott going to games (I know that is not what is being suggested here) or debate whether we are moving too slow or not. We are out of time and therefore options. Just support the team and let the cards fall where they may. Unless of course you are one of the billionaire donors, in which, yes by all means do what you think is needed.
Golden One
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annarborbear said:

You still have to get the millions in "chump change" from someplace, while still having enough left over to hire the next coach and pay recruits. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the next coach, for 2-3 years, will have to be Rivera.

If we can't get the money to fire Wilcox now and hire a new, quality coach, then we out to just throw in the towel and drop to a lower-tier conference or drop football altogether. I don't like saying that, since I've been a season ticket holder for 58 years and am a current ESP seat holder. I love Cal football. But continuing to slog through the mud of the last 9 years with 5-7 and 6-6 seasons and going to a meaningless, bottom level bowl game every two to three years is not an attractive scenario, especially when we are spending a lot of money for mediocrity. We are the University of California. We need to either go all-in or drop out. And I don't expect that we will be competitive with Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Oregon,etc. But we sure as hell should be at least consistently competitive with Indiana, UCLA, Washington, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, etc. We have plenty of potential mega-donors out there. They just need to be identified and cultivated. That's the job of Lyons and Rivera. We need to see action from them, not just more words.
Golden One
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Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.
CNHTH
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Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

This!
Until Rich and Ron do what we all see needs to be done and has needed to be done for the past 4 years; I'm sorry but I'm not going to say we're lucky to have them. Not to keep using the sinking titanic analogy but this is akin to saying that "we were lucky to have that band playing sweet melodies to us as we made our descent into 20,000 feet of freezing cold ocean 3000 miles from land" in response to calls for more life boats.
I don't care about words I care about action. And this isn't some gray area. If we ever want to be better than 6-7 which is in fact the melody I keep hearing from the "band" then we need to see actions that support that. And with Justin Wilcox as head coach we will never be better than .500
It's that simple
BearlyCareAnymore
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CNHTH said:

Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

This!
Until Rich and Ron do what we all see needs to be done and has needed to be done for the past 4 years; I'm sorry but I'm not going to say we're lucky to have them. Not to keep using the sinking titanic analogy but this is akin to saying that "we were lucky to have that band playing sweet melodies to us as we made our descent into 20,000 feet of freezing cold ocean 3000 miles from land" in response to calls for more life boats.
I don't care about words I care about action. And this isn't some gray area. If we ever want to be better than 6-7 which is in fact the melody I keep hearing from the "band" then we need to see actions that support that. And with Justin Wilcox as head coach we will never be better than .500
It's that simple

I think the clinching issue to me is just no coach survives that SDSU game. None. And looking back, I realize we didn't remotely think he'd be fired that week.
Econ141
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Golden One said:

annarborbear said:

You still have to get the millions in "chump change" from someplace, while still having enough left over to hire the next coach and pay recruits. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the next coach, for 2-3 years, will have to be Rivera.

If we can't get the money to fire Wilcox now and hire a new, quality coach, then we out to just throw in the towel and drop to a lower-tier conference or drop football altogether. I don't like saying that, since I've been a season ticket holder for 58 years and am a current ESP seat holder. I love Cal football. But continuing to slog through the mud of the last 9 years with 5-7 and 6-6 seasons and going to a meaningless, bottom level bowl game every two to three years is not an attractive scenario, especially when we are spending a lot of money for mediocrity. We are the University of California. We need to either go all-in or drop out. And I don't expect that we will be competitive with Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Oregon,etc. But we sure as hell should be at least consistently competitive with Indiana, UCLA, Washington, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, etc. We have plenty of potential mega-donors out there. They just need to be identified and cultivated. That's the job of Lyons and Rivera. We need to see action from them, not just more words.


And if there is literally no action what can be done about it? Fire Ron, start a new GM search? The clock doesn't reset to realignment. I don't know what they are doing behind the scenes if anything at all. My point is, it doesn't matter - they are our only hope so just support them so we have as many fans at games and watching on TV to do our small part. You don't have to of course but there is no point boycotting them until there is proof because there is no time left to go in a different direction is all I am trying to say
BearlyCareAnymore
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Econ141 said:

Golden One said:

annarborbear said:

You still have to get the millions in "chump change" from someplace, while still having enough left over to hire the next coach and pay recruits. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the next coach, for 2-3 years, will have to be Rivera.

If we can't get the money to fire Wilcox now and hire a new, quality coach, then we out to just throw in the towel and drop to a lower-tier conference or drop football altogether. I don't like saying that, since I've been a season ticket holder for 58 years and am a current ESP seat holder. I love Cal football. But continuing to slog through the mud of the last 9 years with 5-7 and 6-6 seasons and going to a meaningless, bottom level bowl game every two to three years is not an attractive scenario, especially when we are spending a lot of money for mediocrity. We are the University of California. We need to either go all-in or drop out. And I don't expect that we will be competitive with Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Oregon,etc. But we sure as hell should be at least consistently competitive with Indiana, UCLA, Washington, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, etc. We have plenty of potential mega-donors out there. They just need to be identified and cultivated. That's the job of Lyons and Rivera. We need to see action from them, not just more words.


And if there is literally no action what can be done about it? Fire Ron, start a new GM search? The clock doesn't reset to realignment. I don't know what they are doing behind the scenes if anything at all. My point is, it doesn't matter - they are our only hope so just support them so we have as many fans at games and watching on TV to do our small part. You don't have to of course but there is no point boycotting them until there is proof because there is no time left to go in a different direction is all I am trying to say


Sorry. I've had too many years of "just support them. They are our only hope. If they fail Cal is going to die". Cal is always going to die. And I know. This time really.

You can't just keep playing to an imaginary 3 year window. And I'll tell you where Cal will be in 5 years. In the ACC with 10-12 teams left after the top 5 or so are skimmed off.

I do support them. I can also comment on what I see, good or bad.

I'm starting to feel like the underlying theme is just shut up and go with it and again, that isn't a fair ask of this fanbase.
BearGreg
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Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

Curious what actions you expect to see if they really are trying to save the program?

Does hiring Ron Rivera count? Firing Jim Knowlton? Giving Ron complete control of the program?

Ron's had that control since April, what actions are you expecting to make you feel like Cal's leadership is trying to save the program?

And as for Ron's comments to the press, they are being overblown. Yes, he wants fans to come out and support the team regardless of the outcome of a game. Not the smartest or most carefully worded statement he could have made for sure. Does that mean he doesn't "get" it or want to save the program? Does it obviate the many statements he's made about the KPIs for the program that are mandatory?
BearlyCareAnymore
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Econ141 said:

Golden One said:

annarborbear said:

You still have to get the millions in "chump change" from someplace, while still having enough left over to hire the next coach and pay recruits. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the next coach, for 2-3 years, will have to be Rivera.

If we can't get the money to fire Wilcox now and hire a new, quality coach, then we out to just throw in the towel and drop to a lower-tier conference or drop football altogether. I don't like saying that, since I've been a season ticket holder for 58 years and am a current ESP seat holder. I love Cal football. But continuing to slog through the mud of the last 9 years with 5-7 and 6-6 seasons and going to a meaningless, bottom level bowl game every two to three years is not an attractive scenario, especially when we are spending a lot of money for mediocrity. We are the University of California. We need to either go all-in or drop out. And I don't expect that we will be competitive with Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Oregon,etc. But we sure as hell should be at least consistently competitive with Indiana, UCLA, Washington, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, etc. We have plenty of potential mega-donors out there. They just need to be identified and cultivated. That's the job of Lyons and Rivera. We need to see action from them, not just more words.


And if there is literally no action what can be done about it? Fire Ron, start a new GM search? The clock doesn't reset to realignment. I don't know what they are doing behind the scenes if anything at all. My point is, it doesn't matter - they are our only hope so just support them so we have as many fans at games and watching on TV to do our small part. You don't have to of course but there is no point boycotting them until there is proof because there is no time left to go in a different direction is all I am trying to say


And Econ, I know you aren't as old as some of us here, but if I could take you back in a Time Machine I could literally show you dozens of almost identical posts every year telling us to just support Holmoe. I get it, and your heart is in the right place, but it isn't a strategy that has ever worked for Cal fans.
BearlyCareAnymore
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BearGreg said:

Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

Curious what actions you expect to see if they really are trying to save the program?

Does hiring Ron Rivera count? Firing Jim Knowlton? Giving Ron complete control of the program?

Ron's had that control since April, what actions are you expecting to make you feel like Cal's leadership is trying to save the program?

And as for Ron's comments to the press, they are being overblown. Yes, he wants fans to come out and support the team regardless of the outcome of a game. Not the smartest or most carefully worded statement he could have made for sure. Does that mean he doesn't "get" it or want to save the program? Does it obviate the many statements he's made about the KPIs for the program that are mandatory?



Fire Knowlton by August 2024.
Firing Wilcox by December 2024.
Having a succession plan for Knowlton departure that was almost a year into Lyons term
Firing Wilcox after SDSU

I don't see Knowlton's retirement forced or not after he looked the other way while athletes were subject to abusive behavior as an indicator of new winning ways. That seems like baseline. The fact that Christ didn't do it is more a negative toward her than a positive in Lyons.

Major props and kudos for creating the GM position and hiring Rivera.


Major props for improving the fundraising.


We'll agree to disagree on whether the radio statement is overblown. I'm not saying Rivera sucks because of that statement. I'm saying it was one thing he did that was very poor.

And again. No other coach survives the SDSU loss. That would have told me Cal has changed and that is why I fear Cal has not changed enough.
Golden One
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BearGreg said:

Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

Curious what actions you expect to see if they really are trying to save the program?

Does hiring Ron Rivera count? Firing Jim Knowlton? Giving Ron complete control of the program?

Ron's had that control since April, what actions are you expecting to make you feel like Cal's leadership is trying to save the program?

And as for Ron's comments to the press, they are being overblown. Yes, he wants fans to come out and support the team regardless of the outcome of a game. Not the smartest or most carefully worded statement he could have made for sure. Does that mean he doesn't "get" it or want to save the program? Does it obviate the many statements he's made about the KPIs for the program that are mandatory?


Hiring Ron and firing Knowlton are necessary but not sufficient steps for offering hope for the future of our football program. Among the actions I'd like to hear about are: (1) Billionaire alums A, B, and C have donated $10 million, $25 million, and $50 million , respectively to the Cal football program. (2) Justin Wilcox has been fired. (3) A young, dynamic, offensive-minded coach has been hired as Cal's new head coach. (4) JKS loves the new head coach and will be staying for the 2026 season. Those actions would be a good start toward breathing life into our moribund program.
calumnus
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BearGreg said:

Golden One said:

Econ141 said:

We are lucky that we have Rich and Ron who are genuinely trying to save the program.

Can you share what evidence you have that this is actually happening? I haven't seen anything yet, but I've heard a lot of words. Oh, and I've seen Lyons ride onto the field on a bicycle before the team enters. Big deal.

Curious what actions you expect to see if they really are trying to save the program?

Does hiring Ron Rivera count? Firing Jim Knowlton? Giving Ron complete control of the program?

Ron's had that control since April, what actions are you expecting to make you feel like Cal's leadership is trying to save the program?

And as for Ron's comments to the press, they are being overblown. Yes, he wants fans to come out and support the team regardless of the outcome of a game. Not the smartest or most carefully worded statement he could have made for sure. Does that mean he doesn't "get" it or want to save the program? Does it obviate the many statements he's made about the KPIs for the program that are mandatory?


I do think Ron's comments are very troubling, especially implying that everyone was happy before the loss? That seems very out of touch. Other than hiring the new coach I don't think Ron's skills are suited to being a GM. I honestly think Lyons should have asked him to be head coach last December. We have other people who can better provide administrative support.
socaltownie
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So here is the thing. Ron has set 8 wins minimum as the standard. To hit that Cal can 't lose more than 1 more game. No. Meaningless bowl games that are gravely impacted by transfers and sit outs do not count.

So here is simply what Ron could do. After cal is mathematically unable to hit 8, announce Wilcox will be dismissed. I think a players call about whether he is given the courtesy to play out the string (see Joe Kapp) or not. To me that is near meaningless and I can see value in not having an interim for your rivalry game. It will not impact any of your decisions - if RR is truly the guy that is claimed he does not need to see Rolo do a 2 game try out.

However, if you think "typiCAL" I expect that even if Wilcox is unable to hit 8 (or 8 with a cheeto bow) we will not see the trigger pulled. No emergency senior leadership meeting. No RR and Lyon's huddling on the airplane back from Kentucky. Just so dithering and then maybe a trigger pulled 12/20.

Take care of your Chicken
Nasal Mucus Goldenbear
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BearlyCareAnymore said:

This is a very long post. If you are a TLDR person I get it. Stop now.


I am very much a TL;DR person, but the problem is not very long posts. I semi-regularly read mostly dry, academic, challenging tomes that are at times over 1k pages long; and I do it for intellectual pleasure over interest in varied subjects. The problem is very long posts that do not include a "TL;DR SUMMARY" of ~1 to 5 sentences either at the top or bottom of the post.

THANK YOU for providing a SUMMARY at the bottom of the OP.
It aroused my interest enough to read it all.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Nasal Mucus Goldenbear said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

This is a very long post. If you are a TLDR person I get it. Stop now.


I am very much a TL;DR person, but the problem is not very long posts. I semi-regularly read mostly dry, academic, challenging tomes that are at times over 1k pages long; and I do it for intellectual pleasure over interest in varied subjects. The problem is very long posts that do not include a "TL;DR SUMMARY" of ~1 to 5 sentences either at the top or bottom of the post.

THANK YOU for providing a SUMMARY at the bottom of the OP.
It aroused my interest enough to read it all.



I shall take that constructive feedback to heart Nasal as I am very much guilty of many a TLDR post.
72CalBear
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Appreciate the long post - I had time to read it and it was worth it. I'm 75 and started going to Cal games with my dad, also a grad, in 1958. Much has been done in the past couple of years in terms of fund raising and marketing. Many of those my age have been living off the Tedford years, and those are gone, and so is Cal football as I know it. I've sort of blindly supported Wilcox since he is such a good guy and seems to keep the program clean. Yet, like many, I am done with the 6-6 years, maybe beat Stanfurd, and get the Cheetos Bowl. I love Cal the institution/university and have gravitated towards programs that seem alive, well, and winning - water polo, rugby. Without thinking about it much when ucla and usc left, I thought so poorly of our football team I supported a move to the Mountain West. 5 star quarterbacks aren't going to bring the JT years back. Like someone posted, we have a few years left to figure it out or get out.
Bring back bottled beer and cigars at CMS. Should get us back in the Rose Bowl!
LarsBear74
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jy1988 said:

Cal is not like everyone else, and maybe that is why we have to change. And many may not like what we change into. I, for one, am more proud of the fact that we are a learning institution of the highest caliber. I no longer wish to butt heads against FB superpowers willing to spend close to a billion dollars to boost their egos. I've followed Cal FB for over 50 yrs, when it was exciting even when we lost. I could relate to the athletes more back then, than what they've become-gladiators. It's no longer exciting. Coaches like Shaw and Saban saw the writing on the wall. It may not be worth it any longer.


I agree. I've followed Cal football since I saw my first game in 1968. Lots of ups but mostly downs along the way. Still, I'm a fan. But I too have concerns about Cal trying to compete in this new CFB environment. The death of the Pac-12 really sticks in my craw. Like someone else said, let's pick a lane where we "fit".
MinotStateBeav
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If JKS doesn't fall in our laps late in the process, this is a 1 or 2 win team with one of the weakest schedules in California's history. (#4 weakest I remember reading). The level of failure this program is in right now is long lasting and systemic. We made fun of UCLA, we are right there with them. There needs to be a plan executed with minds greater than mine of how you get out of this and it needs to be enacted quickly because Cal does not look to be run like a high level athletics program. The commitment to Wilcox has been long and steadfast and a failure. It's been allowed to continue 2 offensive coordinators too long. I use to be the eternal optimist about Cal, but it's testing me because the things that successful programs do, don't happen here. Cal should be on the level of Michigan but the excuses of why that can't happen here are laughably long. Michigan has an excellent academic reputation, and a football program that competes at the highest level. How is that happening? How come they don't have the same constraints as Cal? Maybe we should emulate them.
Gunga la Gunga
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TBH, We need to move away from the "Our Coach is the Problem" mentality. Yes, our coach is a problem, but he's just a symptom. Our underlying issue an insufficient infrastructure. We do not currently have the fan, community, institutional or financial infrastructure to compete.

Consequently, we hope to hire a coach that can paper over these infrastructural issues, and deliver a short term fix. It's worked two or three times in the 40 years I've paid attention to Cal sports.

If we want to build that infrastructure, we need to think much bigger than who our coach is. Also, it's more than money. It's fan interest. You can't have 20k to 25K people come to a game, and say we have the right amount of support, regardless of how high donations get. Also, the right infrastructure requires we don't have ongoing fights with the COB and/or Faculty.

If Lyons and Rivera really want to build a sustainable capability at Cal, let me understand how they intend to build this infrastructure. Otherwise . . . yawn.
MinotStateBeav
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Gunga la Gunga said:

TBH, We need to move away from the "Our Coach is the Problem" mentality. Yes, our coach is a problem, but he's just a symptom. Our underlying issue an insufficient infrastructure. We do not currently have the fan, community, institutional or financial infrastructure to compete.

Consequently, we hope to hire a coach that can paper over these infrastructural issues, and deliver a short term fix. It's worked two or three times in the 40 years I've paid attention to Cal sports.

If we want to build that infrastructure, we need to think much bigger than who our coach is. Also, it's more than money. It's fan interest. You can't have 20k to 25K people come to a game, and say we have the right amount of support, regardless of how high donations get. Also, the right infrastructure requires we don't have ongoing fights with the COB and/or Faculty.

If Lyons and Rivera really want to build a sustainable capability at Cal, let me understand how they intend to build this infrastructure. Otherwise . . . yawn.

California fans do not attend games of losing programs. You have the die hards and the "It's a nice day to go watch a game" fans that will always show up, but this state just doesn't sell out for losers. That's state wide by the way. So it really is a head coach problem. If that guy can't win and put together a staff that recruits well, you just won't have sustained financial success. Man, it took almost no time for Tedford to start selling out a much larger Memorial stadium. I'm sure Cal would like to invest in facilities again, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The facilities are good enough to have a winning program, we need to start having that first before we start thinking about expansions.
m2bear
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Gunga la Gunga said:

TBH, We need to move away from the "Our Coach is the Problem" mentality.



Ok, Ron.

Will do.
Gunga la Gunga
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Here is a list of the universities that average 70,000 fans: Nebraska, Florida, Oklahoma, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M, Penn St. and Michigan.

That's the target.

We've never averaged this, regardless of our coach. We need more than the right coach to get here.

And yes, fire our coach. But don't tell me things are different, just because you fire him and raise money once.
MinotStateBeav
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Gunga la Gunga said:

Here is a list of the universities that average 70,000 fans: Nebraska, Florida, Oklahoma, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M, Penn St. and Michigan.

That's the target.

We've never averaged this, regardless of our coach. We need more than the right coach to get here.

And yes, fire our coach. But don't tell me things are different, just because you fire him and raise money once.

How many of those programs are in California?


Our attendance average when Tedford was here had to be in the 55-60k range for a good 4 year stretch and he had way worse facilities.
calumnus
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MinotStateBeav said:

Gunga la Gunga said:

Here is a list of the universities that average 70,000 fans: Nebraska, Florida, Oklahoma, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, LSU, Texas A&M, Penn St. and Michigan.

That's the target.

We've never averaged this, regardless of our coach. We need more than the right coach to get here.

And yes, fire our coach. But don't tell me things are different, just because you fire him and raise money once.

How many of those programs are in California?


Our attendance average when Tedford was here had to be in the 55-60k range for a good 4 year stretch and he had way worse facilities.


And that was while Cal competed with the Raiders, A's and even Warriors for East Bay sports attendance. Very few people are buying season tickets for two, three or four teams.

The last time Cal did not have any professional sports competition in the East Bay was 1959, a year after Cal went to its last Rose Bowl and also won the National Championship in basketball. I don't think it was coincidence that the demise of Cal football coincided with the rise of the Raiders as "the winningest team in sports" with an image and culture that embodied the East Bay, and even played their games in CMS at one point.

Cal has an opportunity to build its fanbase beyond current students and 20,000 aging alums and reassert itself as the home team for the East Bay (North Bay and even San Francisco) , and a secondary rooting interest for the entire state.

But it takes winning, wining big. Fortunately, we don't have to be THAT good to win 10 in the ACC. We just need to start with a good coach with an offense that attracts fans and smart, creative marketing in line with the Calgorithm.

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