It occurred to me recently that many of you here may have experience with higher-end espresso machines. And since I've read some pretty good OT advice on various subjects here, I thought I'd ask.

I've survived making my morning espresso with a simple Krups machine. A long time ago, I upgraded to an ~$300 Capresso pump machine. It was convenient and worked better than the simple Krups, but it stopped working properly after about two years. Once it gave up the ghost, I went back to the Krups. And I know the $300-$600 machines out there aren't "real" espresso machines. Sorry, using a "frother" isn't the proper way to steam milk!

Well, I've always dreamed of having a professional espresso machine at home. Luckily, I was able to use a "real" pro machine while vacationing in Moab last spring. Wow, what a joy it was to actually "pull" my shots and steam milk with gusto! However, having one in the home is totally unrealistic since they run $10-$20k. Recently a friend I was helping with a kitchen remodel mentioned the "prosumer" level espresso machines out there. Funny that I didn't really realize this market existed, but glad it does since it appears to offer professional-level equipment at a much more reasonable price.

Initially I thought I'd go with a heat exchange model, which range in price from $1-2k. But after further research, it appears that a dual-boiler model will fit the bill better. Right now I have my eye on the Izzo Alex Duetto IV, with dual stainless steel boilers ($2,500). It's a model that can be plumbed directly or used with the included water reservoir. I'll use the reservoir until we remodel our kitchen next year.

I really wish Consumer Reports would review these expensive consumer machines. Plunking down $2,500 would be a lot easier knowing I was buying a reputable brand with a good product performance history. I should add that I'm rather wary of online reviews out there. Who knows who's paid to fill these websites with positive reviews? In other words, I don't want to end up with a machine that breaks after a few years of service, only to find it can't be repaired.

So my question is this: anyone here have some real-life experience with these machines? Any suggestions or recommendations? Any pitfalls to avoid? (I'll add that I am aware of the potential need for testing one's home water, using a water softener and/or filter for direct-plumbed machines.)


Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Go Bears!

I've never plunked down for one, but this website has tons of machines and video reviews that I've looked at before:

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/

Sure, they are in the business of selling machines, but I think they'd steer you to the best one in your price range, why wouldn't they? Depending on where you live, perhaps you can try them out?

Lol plunked down

sandiegobears;842780746 said:

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I've never plunked down for one, but this website has tons of machines and video reviews that I've looked at before:

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/

Sure, they are in the business of selling machines, but I think they'd steer you to the best one in your price range, why wouldn't they? Depending on where you live, perhaps you can try them out?

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Yes, they're a great resource. Their videos are fantastic. Who knew the grind was so critical to a perfect pull? I was ready to order a heat exchange model from them but then looked more closely at the double-boiler option.

They have retail locations, but all outside the Bay Area. Mr. Coffee in Oakland sells prosumer models, but a limited selection from what I understand.

Another resource is HomeBarista.com for pretty informed discussion about all things coffee.

Thanks!

Try Coffeetec in Redwood City.

http://www.coffeetec.com/

Been buying sample roasters, grinders, and cupping lab equipment from them for years.

Not trolling and not trying to reroute the stream, but: do the Nespresso machines just totally suck? Like, is it Keurig for espresso?

Not really an expert on different machines but I did work years ago at a very well known North Berkeley cafe as an espresso jockey for a few years so I will say this; It is not so much a matter of the quality of the machine but the experience and expertise of the one making your espresso. If you don't get the water to coffee ratio correct, or steam the milk poorly You can have a $20,000 machine or a $200 machine and it doesn't matter.
Save your money and get a modestly priced machine that will last a while and put your energy into perfecting your espresso making skills. Nothing like a perfect cappuccino.
Just my two cents.
Cheers!

andilise;842780823 said:

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Not really an expert on different machines but I did work years ago at a very well known North Berkeley cafe as an espresso jockey for a few years so I will say this; It is not so much a matter of the quality of the machine but the experience and expertise of the one making your espresso. If you don't get the water to coffee ratio correct, or steam the milk poorly You can have a $20,000 machine or a $200 machine and it doesn't matter.
Save your money and get a modestly priced machine that will last a while and put your energy into perfecting your espresso making skills. Nothing like a perfect cappuccino.
Just my two cents.
Cheers!

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+1 That is professional advice. Bill it please.

andilise;842780823 said:

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Not really an expert on different machines but I did work years ago at a very well known North Berkeley cafe as an espresso jockey for a few years so I will say this; It is not so much a matter of the quality of the machine but the experience and expertise of the one making your espresso. If you don't get the water to coffee ratio correct, or steam the milk poorly You can have a $20,000 machine or a $200 machine and it doesn't matter.
Save your money and get a modestly priced machine that will last a while and put your energy into perfecting your espresso making skills. Nothing like a perfect cappuccino.
Just my two cents.
Cheers!

---

Agree with Joe, good advice. I have a Jura (and a Nepresso frother) for home and a Breville and Keurig (with reusable pod) for work. I entertain a lot of customers and business partners from Europe and they are very particular about coffee, especially the Italians. I can please the fussiest drinkers with the Jura and Breville if I have good beans, the ground is fine enough, distilled water, warm cups (on top of the Breville or Jura) and regular milk for frothing. The beans are the biggest determinant and sometimes it is a matter of preference. The Jura and Breville actually froths the milk more thoroughly (if you do it right) than the Nepresso dedicated frother, but we use the latter at home since it is more convenient.

I have done a lot of research on this and tried many machines. Currently I have a Pasquini Livia Semi-Auto which I love:
http://pasquini.com/Front/Views/Products/ProView.aspx?Pnum=1239

I think my next machine will be from Decent. Check out the video. This guy is doing cutting edge engineering:
https://decentespresso.com/de1

GATC;842780859 said:

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Agree with Joe, good advice. I have a Jura (and a Nepresso frother) for home and a Breville and Keurig (with reusable pod) for work. I entertain a lot of customers and business partners from Europe and they are very particular about coffee, especially the Italians. I can please the fussiest drinkers with the Jura and Breville if I have good beans, the ground is fine enough, distilled water, warm cups (on top of the Breville or Jura) and regular milk for frothing. The beans are the biggest determinant and sometimes it is a matter of preference. The Jura and Breville actually froths the milk more thoroughly (if you do it right) than the Nepresso dedicated frother, but we use the latter at home since it is more convenient.

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+1. More excellent professional advice. And a proven methodology regarding Italian requirements. Bill it again please.

You can't win with a Ferrari if you can't drive a Fiat.

GATC;842780859 said:

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Agree with Joe, good advice. I have a Jura (and a Nepresso frother) for home and a Breville and Keurig (with reusable pod) for work. I entertain a lot of customers and business partners from Europe and they are very particular about coffee, especially the Italians. I can please the fussiest drinkers with the Jura and Breville if I have good beans, the ground is fine enough, distilled water, warm cups (on top of the Breville or Jura) and regular milk for frothing. The beans are the biggest determinant and sometimes it is a matter of preference. The Jura and Breville actually froths the milk more thoroughly (if you do it right) than the Nepresso dedicated frother, but we use the latter at home since it is more convenient.

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Thanks for the Coffee Tec link, Redonkulous!

Most espresso machine makers specify NOT using distilled water. The high-end machines with automatic low-water shut offs will not identify distilled water. A certain amount of dissolved minerals is required for operation and is considered requisite for ideal coffee taste. I'm not sure, but I think I've also heard it isn't recommended because of its "corrosive" tendency. You shouldn't drink distilled water for this reason. Most espresso machine makers suggest you test your water's hardness to determine dissolved mineral content so that you can add if your water's REALLY soft (to little dissolved minerals) or remove if hard (the usual culprit). I'm pretty sure my EBMUD water hardness is fine, but I may need a particulate filter (old pipes).

Anyway, I went through two Capresso frothers from Costco before I finally gave up on them. They stop working properly after about six months in my experience.

And I'm a pretty picky espresso drinker. Growing up on Cafe Roma lattes (at College & Bancroft) spoiled me; High quality espresso combined with dense foam in milk the proper temperature. Traveling around the country showed me how lucky I was to be introduced to espresso in Berkeley. .Finding Roma Cafe-quality foam was hard to achieve. Apparently, burning milk is required in many cafes in the country! My wife and I so missed our lattes on our honeymoon that we purchased a camp-stove double boiler espresso maker. We got some funny looks from neighboring campers while making double lattes in the back country!

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far. Appreciate it.

TandemBear;842780669 said:

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It occurred to me recently that many of you here may have experience with higher-end espresso machines. And since I've read some pretty good OT advice on various subjects here, I thought I'd ask.

I've survived making my morning espresso with a simple Krups machine. A long time ago, I upgraded to an ~$300 Capresso pump machine. It was convenient and worked better than the simple Krups, but it stopped working properly after about two years. Once it gave up the ghost, I went back to the Krups. And I know the $300-$600 machines out there aren't "real" espresso machines. Sorry, using a "frother" isn't the proper way to steam milk!

Well, I've always dreamed of having a professional espresso machine at home. Luckily, I was able to use a "real" pro machine while vacationing in Moab last spring. Wow, what a joy it was to actually "pull" my shots and steam milk with gusto! However, having one in the home is totally unrealistic since they run $10-$20k. Recently a friend I was helping with a kitchen remodel mentioned the "prosumer" level espresso machines out there. Funny that I didn't really realize this market existed, but glad it does since it appears to offer professional-level equipment at a much more reasonable price.

Initially I thought I'd go with a heat exchange model, which range in price from $1-2k. But after further research, it appears that a dual-boiler model will fit the bill better. Right now I have my eye on the Izzo Alex Duetto IV, with dual stainless steel boilers ($2,500). It's a model that can be plumbed directly or used with the included water reservoir. I'll use the reservoir until we remodel our kitchen next year.

I really wish Consumer Reports would review these expensive consumer machines. Plunking down $2,500 would be a lot easier knowing I was buying a reputable brand with a good product performance history. I should add that I'm rather wary of online reviews out there. Who knows who's paid to fill these websites with positive reviews? In other words, I don't want to end up with a machine that breaks after a few years of service, only to find it can't be repaired.

So my question is this: anyone here have some real-life experience with these machines? Any suggestions or recommendations? Any pitfalls to avoid? (I'll add that I am aware of the potential need for testing one's home water, using a water softener and/or filter for direct-plumbed machines.)


Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Go Bears!

---

tandem, i was almost in the exact same situation as you. when i was looking to buy a better espresso machine, i first settled on a HX as well. bc of some shipping damage, i said why don't i exchange it and upgrade to a Duetto instead?

in hindsight, i echo what has already been said. 1) at my level, the quality of the espresso isn't going to be drastically different between a 1k unit and a 2k one. someone complained once "the espresso i make isn't even much better than the crap at starbucks!" the explanation i love to use is that "employees at a coffee shop make 50+ shots of espresso a day. you may be lucky to make more than 5-6. they do this to a living, and you're just an enthusiast. practice makes perfect."

2) i probably should have just used a smaller, cheaper gaggia. along with how often i get lazy, and end up making a cup of Aeropress or chemex, no need to splurge for an extremely high end dual boiler unless you truly LOVE the machine, or have money to blow [or if you really like to enjoy frothing milk like you said!]. biggest problem for me is that it takes 30-40 min to get the entire tank of water hot and ready. i don't want to wake up that early to use it sometimes

all that said, the Duetto is a quality machine with good stainless steel build. note the voltage requirement that not all home outlets are equipped to handle.

also, question for you: what kind of grinder are you using and are you planning to upgrade that as well? man i wish i had gotten one with dosing by weight instead of by a timer knob -____-

Speaking locally. If you are on EBMUD water you are fine. If you are on water in the Tri-Valley area you may have an issue with hard water and an abundance of dissolved minerals.

joe yaks;842780889 said:

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Speaking locally. If you are on EBMUD water you are fine. If you are on water in the Tri-Valley area you may have an issue with hard water and an abundance of dissolved minerals.

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i DEFINITELY didn't want to bother with plumbing in. very happy with pouring in filtered water, esp if the amount of water you use each time is more than enough for a few espressos (plus steam wand)

TandemBear;842780669 said:

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Initially I thought I'd go with a heat exchange model

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Maybe you're overdoing it.

Works for making coffee as well...

Then there is always "cowboy coffee". On a river trip this is most excellent on a cold pre-dawn morning.

Fill a 3 qt enamel coffee pot with filtered stream water to the bottom of the spout. Place the pot on a hot stone or grate over the campfire or other heat source and bring the water to steaming. When the water is hot, pour 3/4 cup prox of ground coffee in the pot. Bring the water to a rolling boil before removing it from the heat source. Steep for a few minutes allowing grounds to settle out...sort of. Pour directly and drink or pour thru a sieve to cup. No cream or sugar needed.

You can also make it in a deep cast iron skillet, but first be sure to wipe away excess grease and then wash and wipe the skillet dry before proceeding. Bacon bits and lard scum don't do well in coffee.

*Note: Cowboy coffee was served this way by Coach Lombardi before Packer games in the 1960's.

I should have said what I use: Bialetti Moka Pot. About $30 to $40, good enough for someone cheap like me.

I did once find this amazing video, I'm not nearly as precise or technical as these folks:

https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/awesome-espresso-hack-make-great-coffee-with-a-moka-pot

sandiegobears;842780922 said:

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I should have said what I use: Bialetti Moka Pot. About $30 to $40, good enough for someone cheap like me.

I did once find this amazing video, I'm not nearly as precise or technical as these folks:

https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/awesome-espresso-hack-make-great-coffee-with-a-moka-pot

---

+1. Have used the Bialetti since Christ left Chicago.

I have researched this every now and again over the past couple years and for under $1k, the Rancilio consistently gets the best reviews. Although I am told the burr grinder is almost as essential. To get the package runs just over $1k. My brother in law is a coffee snob and swears by it.

https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/rancilio-silvia-m-espresso-machine

Sweep The Leg Johnny;842780958 said:

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I have researched this every now and again over the past couple years and for under $1k, the Rancilio consistently gets the best reviews. Although I am told the burr grinder is almost as essential. To get the package runs just over $1k. My brother in law is a coffee snob and swears by it.

https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/rancilio-silvia-m-espresso-machine

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cosign. the rancilio is also an excellent machine, and much more budget friendly.

joe yaks;842780889 said:

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Speaking locally. If you are on EBMUD water you are fine. If you are on water in the Tri-Valley area you may have an issue with hard water and an abundance of dissolved minerals.

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I think the best water is to get filtered with minerals added for espresso machine. I use "baby water". Jugs of water they sell for babies to use with formula--but you want to make sure you don't over do the flouride.

If you want to geek out on water:

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/bottled-water-for-espresso-machine-t29184.html

I did a lot of research 5-6 years back and found coffeegeek.com very helpful, particularly the technical science behind espresso. I bought a prosumer machine with e61 head and a double boiler set up plus a mini-mazer for the grinder. My machine was around $1100 plus the grinder, it is now listed at $1950. Here it is now:

https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/la-valentina-automatic-espresso-machine

I've been very happy with it. As others have said, been freshness and quality is more important than the machine. All the prosumer machines will make enough pressure. I put mine on a timer so it turns on 45 minutes before I need it, and I run a "cooldown" flush so that the e61 isnt too hot. Have fun!

Go Bears

beeasyed;842780966 said:

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cosign. the rancilio is also an excellent machine, and much more budget friendly.

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Rancillo is solid choice, but for a few bucks more I would get the Pasquini. And yes, the grinder is perhaps more important. I like Baratza and again intrigues by the Decent grinder. Saw a demo. Pretty sweet.

May I barrow your Grey Poupon?

Really good athletic topic!!

Wow, I never knew about any of these prosumer machines. I've had a Breville Barista machine for a couple of years with the built in grinder, and for my use which is making lattes, the output is just as good as the cafe when using fresh Blue Bottle beans.

When I'm rich like some of the people on this board, I'm going straight for a La Marzocco.

Haven't posted in years, but have been lurking recently. Funny this post would bring me back out of the shadows.

I have a Quick Mill Silvano. This variant is newer than mine with a different PID display, but it is largely unchanged. There is a main boiler, and a thermoblock, which is somewhat akin to a tankless water heater. It has served me excellently for several years. Grinder is just a Capresso Infinity from Costco. That's been fine, but the timer knob is plastic garbage and broke off long ago.

BTW, this is where to go for reviews:

http://coffeegeek.com/reviews

TandemBear;842780886 said:

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Thanks for the Coffee Tec link, Redonkulous!

Most espresso machine makers specify NOT using distilled water. The high-end machines with automatic low-water shut offs will not identify distilled water. A certain amount of dissolved minerals is required for operation and is considered requisite for ideal coffee taste. I'm not sure, but I think I've also heard it isn't recommended because of its "corrosive" tendency. You shouldn't drink distilled water for this reason. Most espresso machine makers suggest you test your water's hardness to determine dissolved mineral content so that you can add if your water's REALLY soft (to little dissolved minerals) or remove if hard (the usual culprit). I'm pretty sure my EBMUD water hardness is fine, but I may need a particulate filter (old pipes).

---

Some machines will come with test strips. Either way, they're cheap. I've been able to use tap water in several cities without any problem. Definitely get some Cafiza for use during routine back flushing, though. It has a noticeable impact on cleaning up the taste of past coffee residue, and it will help prolong the life of your machine.

https://www.amazon.com/Cafiza-Professional-Espresso-Machine-Cleaning/dp/B001418KNS/

gobears15;842780994 said:

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Some machines will come with test strips. Either way, they're cheap. I've been able to use tap water in several cities without any problem. Definitely get some Cafiza for use during routine back flushing, though. It has a noticeable impact on cleaning up the taste of past coffee residue, and it will help prolong the life of your machine.

https://www.amazon.com/Cafiza-Professional-Espresso-Machine-Cleaning/dp/B001418KNS/

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Calfiza can be tough on internal valves. I backflush with water every day and only use Calfiza every other month. Also cleaning out the screen on on your group head and soaking your portafilter in Calfiza will remove stale residue.

beeasyed;842780887 said:

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tandem, i was almost in the exact same situation as you. when i was looking to buy a better espresso machine, i first settled on a HX as well. bc of some shipping damage, i said why don't i exchange it and upgrade to a Duetto instead?

in hindsight, i echo what has already been said. 1) at my level, the quality of the espresso isn't going to be drastically different between a 1k unit and a 2k one. someone complained once "the espresso i make isn't even much better than the crap at starbucks!" the explanation i love to use is that "employees at a coffee shop make 50+ shots of espresso a day. you may be lucky to make more than 5-6. they do this to a living, and you're just an enthusiast. practice makes perfect."

2) i probably should have just used a smaller, cheaper gaggia. along with how often i get lazy, and end up making a cup of Aeropress or chemex, no need to splurge for an extremely high end dual boiler unless you truly LOVE the machine, or have money to blow [or if you really like to enjoy frothing milk like you said!]. biggest problem for me is that it takes 30-40 min to get the entire tank of water hot and ready. i don't want to wake up that early to use it sometimes

all that said, the Duetto is a quality machine with good stainless steel build. note the voltage requirement that not all home outlets are equipped to handle.

also, question for you: what kind of grinder are you using and are you planning to upgrade that as well? man i wish i had gotten one with dosing by weight instead of by a timer knob -____-

---

I love my Aeropress.

If you are going to blow a couple of thou on a coffee pot, get the water professionally tested. Home test kits are pretty useless as they don't detect quantities of the trace chemicals that provide the taste in water. Water is the universal solvent, the more heavy minerals dissolved in the water, the harder it is for the water to absorb additional minerals. However that does not make distilled water corrosive. There is a benefit to the body to absorbing trace minerals from the water; hence the Gatorade industry. Distilled water is an insulator, unlike tap water it won't conduct electricity; that's the reason that the low water shut-offs won't work if you use distilled water. You need impure water to conduct electricity and use electronics to brew your coffee, et. al.

This forum is mostly new tech (or no tech) where digital algorithms have replaced hands-on knowledge of the real world. Digital simulations are not perfect, but satisfy the needs of most people. This is a reason we have no maintenance car batteries (adding distilled water to each cell is beyond the capability of most car owners), this is the reason we now buy 50/50 mixes of anti-freeze as mixing equal parts anti-freeze and distilled water is again too complicated for most car owners. Back when I was doing my own color film processing (a lost art form due to digital cameras), using distilled water when mixing developing solutions was critical for certain processes. Distilled water will dissolve scale and mineral water deposits, but it is a slow process. There are still many industrial processes for distilled water, mainly because it is benign as opposed to corrosive.

Going on the Internet their is a lot of misinformation about coffee boilers, heat exchangers and boilers in general. Some assume that since boilers are tested full of water under pressure to look for leaks that pressurized water bottles are not dangerous. The missing factor is heat; those hydrostatic boiler tests are conducted with cold water. As long as the water temperature is below the boiling point of water, the danger is reduced (Note the term boiler is now applied to pressure vessels that do not actually boil water; blurring the line with heat exchangers which used to be pressure vessels that used high pressure/high temp steam to produce low pressure/low temp hot water as an example). Basically if you are applying external heat to heat water to nearly steam temperatures; it's a boiler, regardless what the salesperson tells you.

FWIW small low pressure home steam boilers have been around for years; some as high priced toys; and they have occasional failures. Boilers (and heat exchangers) generally fail due to scale (mineral deposits). Hopefully, as with most modern devices, the electronics die before the hardware actually fails.

TandemBear;842780886 said:

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Most espresso machine makers specify NOT using distilled water. The high-end machines with automatic low-water shut offs will not identify distilled water. A certain amount of dissolved minerals is required for operation and is considered requisite for ideal coffee taste. I'm not sure, but I think I've also heard it isn't recommended because of its "corrosive" tendency. You shouldn't drink distilled water for this reason. Most espresso machine makers suggest you test your water's hardness to determine dissolved mineral content so that you can add if your water's REALLY soft (to little dissolved minerals) or remove if hard (the usual culprit). I'm pretty sure my EBMUD water hardness is fine, but I may need a particulate filter (old pipes).

...

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blungld;842781026 said:

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Calfiza can be tough on internal valves. I backflush with water every day and only use Calfiza every other month. Also cleaning out the screen on on your group head and soaking your portafilter in Calfiza will remove stale residue.

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Good point. You should only use the cleaning powder during backflushing every month or two.

Cheap espresso option: Nespresso OriginalLine. Machine $80. Third party capsules $.25-.50

tommie317;842781115 said:

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Cheap espresso option: Nespresso OriginalLine. Machine $80. Third party capsules $.25-.50

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coffee pods are awful for the environment!

OP, do you like pour-overs?

beeasyed;842781117 said:

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coffee pods are awful for the environment! OP, do you like pour-overs?

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I have aeropresse which is good, but nespresso saves me more time in a smaller serving. Sure, pods are not great for the environment (you can get the self fill kind to save on capsules). As soon as I go off grid and bike to work, I will get right on it