Note: made 6-7 threes in City College championship game.

https://calbears.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/wrenn-robinson/22283

Most of the players (like Kuany) need to be shooting free and easy, every time they can get a reasonable shot off. Just let it fly. Can't be any worse than what we've seen lately. Selling point: We've got nothing to lose! We could be striking terror into our opponents' hearts. Who would want to be the first team to lose to Cal?!?

Wonder why no . d 1 school went after Robinson . The only thing Brown might do better is defense. And defense is not winning games. Our defense is horrible. I would like to see Robinson play more but only if Fox gives him the green light. Play to strengths rather than forcing players to do something they are not good at.

Maybe Robinson could be a better distributor than Askew. Askews assists are horrible .

Am I the only one confused how a player can be added mid season?

PtownBear1 said:

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Am I the only one confused how a player can be added mid season?

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Walk ons can be added anytime.

CAL4LIFE said:

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oskidunker said:

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Maybe Robinson could be a better distributor than Askew. Askews assists are horrible .

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Who are the players on this roster that Askew can pass to and get assists?

Askew plays the way he plays because the roster is void of shooters, scorers, and coaching.

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Alijiki, lars, Kuani

Civil Bear said:

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oskidunker said:

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CAL4LIFE said:

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oskidunker said:

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Maybe Robinson could be a better distributor than Askew. Askews assists are horrible .

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Who are the players on this roster that Askew can pass to and get assists?

Askew plays the way he plays because the roster is void of shooters, scorers, and coaching.

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Alijiki, lars, Kuani

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Alajiki: .342 FG%, .280 from three
Lars: .562 FG%, but cannot receive passes unless wide open and handed to him on a silver platter
Kuany: .356 FG%, .286 from three

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You make good points.

Civil Bear said:

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oskidunker said:

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CAL4LIFE said:

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oskidunker said:

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Maybe Robinson could be a better distributor than Askew. Askews assists are horrible .

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Who are the players on this roster that Askew can pass to and get assists?

Askew plays the way he plays because the roster is void of shooters, scorers, and coaching.

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Alijiki, lars, Kuani

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Alajiki: .342 FG%, .280 from three
Lars: .562 FG%, but cannot receive passes unless wide open and handed to him on a silver platter
Kuany: .356 FG%, .286 from three

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I'm sure it gets worse from there except maybe Grant Newell.

CAL4LIFE said:

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Askew plays the way he plays because the roster is void of shooters, scorers, and coaching.

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……but other than that……

Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

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Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

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Better for Askew to pass to a wide open Wren the a reluctant shooterJoel Brown

4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

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Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

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He will,under the next coach.

I don't understand why 6' 1" is too small....Paris Austin was only 5'10" and he was able to compete....I've seen Robinson play at CCSF and he can play for Cal, no problem....

4thGenCal said:

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bearmanpg said:

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I don't understand why 6' 1" is too small....Paris Austin was only 5'10" and he was able to compete....I've seen Robinson play at CCSF and he can play for Cal, no problem....

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Agreed though Paris is a legit 6' (I challenged him on that and was proven wrong and Wren almost identical 6' (barely over in shoes). Jeremy Lin walk on situation was set up since Joe Paternack took the time to attend a Paly HS game with me and immediately wanted him - problem was the staff didn't have a scholarship left so pwo was all that was left and then Lou Reynard / associate HC at the in game visit with his parents - mispronounced jeramy Lin as "Ron Jermery" true story and the parents were offended and no longer wanted to pursue attending Cal. Every recruiting detail must be covered - its why Burl Toler is so good at WR recruiting. He is personable, follows up, great work ethic, knowledgable about developing skill sets, and has twitter skills etc (exactly how J Mike was contacted via Twitter). A bit off topic but tied to importance of recruiting every turn and Fox staff has not done that effectively.

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What a crazy anecdote story.... it's so wacky I actually believe it!

75bear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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bearmanpg said:

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I don't understand why 6' 1" is too small....Paris Austin was only 5'10" and he was able to compete....I've seen Robinson play at CCSF and he can play for Cal, no problem....

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Agreed though Paris is a legit 6' (I challenged him on that and was proven wrong and Wren almost identical 6' (barely over in shoes). Jeremy Lin walk on situation was set up since Joe Paternack took the time to attend a Paly HS game with me and immediately wanted him - problem was the staff didn't have a scholarship left so pwo was all that was left and then Lou Reynard / associate HC at the in game visit with his parents - mispronounced jeramy Lin as "Ron Jermery" true story and the parents were offended and no longer wanted to pursue attending Cal. Every recruiting detail must be covered - its why Burl Toler is so good at WR recruiting. He is personable, follows up, great work ethic, knowledgable about developing skill sets, and has twitter skills etc (exactly how J Mike was contacted via Twitter). A bit off topic but tied to importance of recruiting every turn and Fox staff has not done that effectively.

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What a crazy anecdote story.... it's so wacky I actually believe it!

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100% true, Ben was so embarrassed by what had transpired - He told Louis Reynard to drive to Palo Alto to have dinner with me and apologize for the mistake! Jeremy Lin was the rare case where He grew 2 1/2" in college and put on 20 lbs of muscle. And then had the college break out season his senior year at Harvard.

concernedparent said:

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4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

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Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

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Fox also did Paris Austin dirty. His obsession with defensive potential over actual basketball skill is why we're the worst offense in the P5. The 1 is the least consequential spot on defense. You need someone who can run an offense or make something happen.

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I think Mike Montgomery and a host of other coaches would disagree with you on this. Monty often talked about how important it is to stop the ball at point of attack, which is typically the point guard's responsibility. He had it with Jorge, and with Cobbs. Jason Kidd could interrupt an entire offense, with his defense of opposing guards trying to penetrate Cal's defense. The weakness of the 2016 team, other than depth, was at point guard. Wallace was a very good player, essential to the team's success, but he was not great at stopping the ball at point of attack.

You do have a good point with the current roster, because the worst part about this team is the offense. We could score 10-12 more points per game with a decent point guard, and that would be enough to give us a chance to win some games. So we need someone who can run a team right now, not a top defender at point guard. Right now, the only player on this team who has had proven point guard success, both passing and scoring (albeit at a lower college level than the PAC12) is Clayton, and he sits on the bench, injured. He hasn't played a single minute yet.

SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

---

Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

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Fox also did Paris Austin dirty. His obsession with defensive potential over actual basketball skill is why we're the worst offense in the P5. The 1 is the least consequential spot on defense. You need someone who can run an offense or make something happen.

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I think Mike Montgomery and a host of other coaches would disagree with you on this. Monty often talked about how important it is to stop the ball at point of attack, which is typically the point guard's responsibility. He had it with Jorge, and with Cobbs. Jason Kidd could interrupt an entire offense, with his defense of opposing guards trying to penetrate Cal's defense. The weakness of the 2016 team, other than depth, was at point guard. Wallace was a very good player, essential to the team's success, but he was not great at stopping the ball at point of attack.

You do have a good point with the current roster, because the worst part about this team is the offense. We could score 10-12 more points per game with a decent point guard, and that would be enough to give us a chance to win some games. So we need someone who can run a team right now, not a top defender at point guard. Right now, the only player on this team who has had proven point guard success, both passing and scoring (albeit at a lower college level than the PAC12) is Clayton, and he sits on the bench, injured. He hasn't played a single minute yet.

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It is important. Everything is important. But defensive scheme, switching versatility, help, and rotations are more impactful than playing shutdown individual defense at one position. In modern basketball, rim protectors and versatile wings that can switch (and basically guard 1-4) are more valuable since offenses revolve around avoiding the strongest defender and hunting the weakest link.

I think the answer is "it depends"

You can hide people playing zone. But if you want to play M2M pressure defense a good defensive 1 is extremely important.

concernedparent said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

---

Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

---

Fox also did Paris Austin dirty. His obsession with defensive potential over actual basketball skill is why we're the worst offense in the P5. The 1 is the least consequential spot on defense. You need someone who can run an offense or make something happen.

---

I think Mike Montgomery and a host of other coaches would disagree with you on this. Monty often talked about how important it is to stop the ball at point of attack, which is typically the point guard's responsibility. He had it with Jorge, and with Cobbs. Jason Kidd could interrupt an entire offense, with his defense of opposing guards trying to penetrate Cal's defense. The weakness of the 2016 team, other than depth, was at point guard. Wallace was a very good player, essential to the team's success, but he was not great at stopping the ball at point of attack.

You do have a good point with the current roster, because the worst part about this team is the offense. We could score 10-12 more points per game with a decent point guard, and that would be enough to give us a chance to win some games. So we need someone who can run a team right now, not a top defender at point guard. Right now, the only player on this team who has had proven point guard success, both passing and scoring (albeit at a lower college level than the PAC12) is Clayton, and he sits on the bench, injured. He hasn't played a single minute yet.

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It is important. Everything is important. But defensive scheme, switching versatility, help, and rotations are more impactful than playing shutdown individual defense at one position. In modern basketball, rim protectors and versatile wings that can switch (and basically guard 1-4) are more valuable since offenses revolve around avoiding the strongest defender and hunting the weakest link.

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This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Whether it is help defense or man-to-man defense, it is the defender who is nearest the offensive player with the ball in defense who will be the first to initiate defensive pressure on that man. In a set half court man to man defense, it is usually the point guard who will be guarding the opposing point guard or in some cases, the guard or wing with the ball. When another teammate comes to help, he is the second player involved in defending the player with the ball. He comes later, whether it is to double team or switch, it is the point guard who will come in contact with the offensive player first, and therefore it is his responsibility to slow or stop the offensive player. The help guy is the player who helps. He may help a little or a lot or or fail to help. If the point guard can shut his man down, keep him from getting into the lane or near the basket, then there is no need for help at all, is there? And when there is no need for help, then not only will players get back to playing better defense individually, but they will reduce the amount of reacting and thinking they have to do (and the amount of errors they make, losing their man), and they will get less fatigued from chasing the ball to help teammates. Help defense seems to be necessary these days, because the rules today favor the offensive player and put defenders at a big disadvantage. The longer teams rely on help defense, the less skilled they become at guarding their man. Most players today seldom get into the proper defensive stance, in a crouch, using slide steps to stay in front of their man. Players in man defensive sets, man or zone, stand vertically and can not move side to side as well, because they always have to be ready to react if a teammate needs help and they are too far away to use side steps to get there in time to help, and then they have to run to get there. Players arrive in college not having learned the basic defensive stance. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm watching fabulous athletes playing the game that we played in early or middle elementary school years, with the same few defensive skills, running around on defense trying to chase the ball, and playing one on one on offense.

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

---

Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

---

Fox also did Paris Austin dirty. His obsession with defensive potential over actual basketball skill is why we're the worst offense in the P5. The 1 is the least consequential spot on defense. You need someone who can run an offense or make something happen.

---

I think Mike Montgomery and a host of other coaches would disagree with you on this. Monty often talked about how important it is to stop the ball at point of attack, which is typically the point guard's responsibility. He had it with Jorge, and with Cobbs. Jason Kidd could interrupt an entire offense, with his defense of opposing guards trying to penetrate Cal's defense. The weakness of the 2016 team, other than depth, was at point guard. Wallace was a very good player, essential to the team's success, but he was not great at stopping the ball at point of attack.

You do have a good point with the current roster, because the worst part about this team is the offense. We could score 10-12 more points per game with a decent point guard, and that would be enough to give us a chance to win some games. So we need someone who can run a team right now, not a top defender at point guard. Right now, the only player on this team who has had proven point guard success, both passing and scoring (albeit at a lower college level than the PAC12) is Clayton, and he sits on the bench, injured. He hasn't played a single minute yet.

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Wrenn Robinson (the topic of this thread) won a championship at SFCC last year. Great 3 pt shooter, good shooter off the dribble and good on ball defender. He should not be dismissed just because he came to Cal as a walk-on.

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Where did I dismiss Robinson? I've never seen Robinson play, and have no idea whether he can play point and run a team at PAC12 or P5 level, and no one here knows that for sure either, because he has not yet done it for an appreciable number of games. Most of what I have read about here is about his shooting. We don't need shooters, we need scorers. There is a difference. I wrote about Coleman, about whom I know very little, except his stats, because he has played several seasons in Division 1. If Robinson can do the job of running the team at point, I'm behind him 100%. If we only had a point guard, that would free up Askew to operate and focus on getting open, because he and Lars are the team's only dependable scorers. We haven't had a skilled point guard since I can't remember when.

SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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4thGenCal said:

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calumnus said:

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Looking at Wrenn Robinson videos, he is a great shooter with good length (6'2" 6'5 wingspan). Top JC player (PG on championship team), had full eligibility out of HS (St. Ignatius) so was able to be added in season and is only a sophomore.

He has looked great in limited minutes, IMO he needs to start getting ALOT of minutes and if his excellent play continues start supplanting Brown, but also backing up Askew.

---

Totally agree but Fox has said that Wrenn "is under sized"! ridiculous because though He is really just 6'1" in shoes (stood next to him)He is physically strong and has good handles and a nice smooth shot. Fox did say that He will be a contributing player for the next 2 seasons. Its almost as though bringing in a walk on via Paris Austin recommendation, is an affront to the staff and they are only playing him if absolutely necessary. Wrenn has confidence and has bball savvy, hope he gets more minutes.

---

Fox also did Paris Austin dirty. His obsession with defensive potential over actual basketball skill is why we're the worst offense in the P5. The 1 is the least consequential spot on defense. You need someone who can run an offense or make something happen.

---

I think Mike Montgomery and a host of other coaches would disagree with you on this. Monty often talked about how important it is to stop the ball at point of attack, which is typically the point guard's responsibility. He had it with Jorge, and with Cobbs. Jason Kidd could interrupt an entire offense, with his defense of opposing guards trying to penetrate Cal's defense. The weakness of the 2016 team, other than depth, was at point guard. Wallace was a very good player, essential to the team's success, but he was not great at stopping the ball at point of attack.

You do have a good point with the current roster, because the worst part about this team is the offense. We could score 10-12 more points per game with a decent point guard, and that would be enough to give us a chance to win some games. So we need someone who can run a team right now, not a top defender at point guard. Right now, the only player on this team who has had proven point guard success, both passing and scoring (albeit at a lower college level than the PAC12) is Clayton, and he sits on the bench, injured. He hasn't played a single minute yet.

---

It is important. Everything is important. But defensive scheme, switching versatility, help, and rotations are more impactful than playing shutdown individual defense at one position. In modern basketball, rim protectors and versatile wings that can switch (and basically guard 1-4) are more valuable since offenses revolve around avoiding the strongest defender and hunting the weakest link.

---

This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Whether it is help defense or man-to-man defense, it is the defender who is nearest the offensive player with the ball in defense who will be the first to initiate defensive pressure on that man. In a set half court man to man defense, it is usually the point guard who will be guarding the opposing point guard or in some cases, the guard or wing with the ball. When another teammate comes to help, he is the second player involved in defending the player with the ball. He comes later, whether it is to double team or switch, it is the point guard who will come in contact with the offensive player first, and therefore it is his responsibility to slow or stop the offensive player. The help guy is the player who helps. He may help a little or a lot or or fail to help. If the point guard can shut his man down, keep him from getting into the lane or near the basket, then there is no need for help at all, is there? And when there is no need for help, then not only will players get back to playing better defense individually, but they will reduce the amount of reacting and thinking they have to do (and the amount of errors they make, losing their man), and they will get less fatigued from chasing the ball to help teammates. Help defense seems to be necessary these days, because the rules today favor the offensive player and put defenders at a big disadvantage. The longer teams rely on help defense, the less skilled they become at guarding their man. Most players today seldom get into the proper defensive stance, in a crouch, using slide steps to stay in front of their man. Players in man defensive sets, man or zone, stand vertically and can not move side to side as well, because they always have to be ready to react if a teammate needs help and they are too far away to use side steps to get there in time to help, and then they have to run to get there. Players arrive in college not having learned the basic defensive stance. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm watching fabulous athletes playing the game that we played in early or middle elementary school years, with the same few defensive skills, running around on defense trying to chase the ball, and playing one on one on offense.

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Let me reframe. It's not that 1 on 1 PG defense isn't important, it's that the help defense from a rim protector is so far and away the most valuable defensive piece. Rim protectors are deterrents or shot alterers on every play. In contrast, PG's are the least impactful help defenders; they do not credibly alter shots. Also, once the good on-ball defending PG is not guarding the ball, the value of that player's on-ball skills is essentially nullified.

Next when we're talking about modern offenses, they are predicated on switch hunting until you get a good matchup. A good offense is going to run sets and motions until their scorer is not matched against your best on-ball defender. Second, it's pretty rare to see offenses these days that rely on the PG to get penetration or to do much else besides make the first pass to start the motion. If you watch NBA teams or elite college teams with skilled scorers (like last year UCLA with Juzang/Jaquez and Arizona with Mathurin), the basic thing they try to accomplish is getting their guy in a good matchup/spot and then either winning 1 on 1, or punishing over-helping/rotating.