the improvement of Joel Brown

HoopDreams

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6:12p, 1/1/23

Joel Brown has always been good defensively and with ball handling,and has improvedin those areas to the point we almost need him on the court for those purposes only

but offensively he has had poor shooting and poor finishing at the rim, and a non-existent mid range game. FTs were an adventure

but this off season something changed

his shooting form is now very good from the three and line. he's not a great shooter from either place but improved. Another summer with a ton of reps and I'd expect further improvement

And he's finished at the rim a million times better than before. He learned that running hook off the backboard, a good shot over a shot blocker and when he can't cleanly drive past his man.

He learned some hesitatation, start, stop, up and under shots around the basket, instead of the one speed bull rush, throw up a prayer

Two games ago he even drove pulled the ball back and hit a 10 foot jumper. His defender expected him to drive all the way to the rack so Brown had a ton of distance from his defender to take his time and make his shot

When he does take it all the way to the basket he is finishing

Yesterday he hit a pressure cooked FT to ice the game

Shout out to Brown for putting in the work and improving so much. It's so nice to have a senior leader PG!

13

bearister

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In reply to HoopDreams • 6:21p, 1/1/23

…and in 2 games Askew was missing from the line up he scored 17 and 21.

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barsad

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In reply to bearister • 8:14p, 1/1/23

Too bad there's not someone who could balance the roles of two competent guards, give guidance to young players who have a tendency to over-extend on drives. You know a mentor who leads…. what's the word, I can't think of it?
I noticed against the Buffs that Joel does better when he's the shooting guard (but please don't shoot that much) and Dejuan was the ball handler.

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SFCityBear

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In reply to barsad • 11:20p, 1/1/23

barsad said:
Too bad there's not someone who could balance the roles of two competent guards, give guidance to young players who have a tendency to over-extend on drives. You know a mentor who leads…. what's the word, I can't think of it?
I noticed against the Buffs that Joel does better when he's the shooting guard (but please don't shoot that much) and Dejuan was the ball handler.

And with very little evidence (based on only two games and 3 practices), I'd say Clayton did better in the game against Buffs (when he was the ball handler and point guard) than he did against the Utes when he was the shooting guard. Once Clayton gets several more practices, and becomes more familiar with Fox's offense, the team will look better. It already does look better with Clayton on the floor, specially at point.

He came in here billed as a combo guard, not a three point shooter, able to play either point guard or shooting guard, and I read that he was to compete for the point guard spot and be a backup for either guard position. His career stats indicate a good number of assists and good mid- to short range shooting, which might indicate that point might be the more natural of the two positions for him.

The mentor you are looking for could be the point guard, and it could be Clayton. He is senior to both Brown and Askew, with more experience. If it was me, I'd try to find out which player on this team would be the better point guard, and then give him the ball. Before Clayton became healthy, I was writing that Brown should be the point guard and move Askew to the off guard. Askew is a scorer, capable of dropping 30, IMO, and I'd like to free him up to just be a scorer, and not have to run the offense. With Brown and Clayton, I think we may have two capable point guards.

I am actually getting a little hope, maybe even a little juiced, now that I have seen Clayton in the lineup, and it doesn't have to be either/or with Askew and Brown, as to who plays point guard. This is now an interesting work in progress.

SFCityBear

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HearstMining

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9:57a, 1/2/23

Yep, Brown had a career game against Colorado and has definitely improved as stated. Unfortunately, we should have had this discussion during his junior or even sophomore seasons. BROWN IS NOW A SENIOR. This season, various folks have launched similar discussions about Lars and KK and that's fine, too. Unfortunately, a team full of players who become Pac-12 competent only in their senior years is not a recipe for success. The current staff needs to land players who come in with a higher skill level and/or figure out how to develop the guys they do get quicker. With the possible exception of Newell, I see no indication that they can do that.

Sure, go ahead and point at Kelly as an exception, but I think Wyking recruited him, and it was obvious that Fox didn't allow Kelly to shoot outside ~8ft until the second half of last season.

As far as Clayton goes, I'm less impressed than some of you, but the sample size is still too small to draw a conclusion. At this point, neither Askew nor Clayton have shown me the vision, polish, and court sense of Shepherd.

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HoopDreams

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In reply to HearstMining • 11:55a, 1/2/23

HearstMining said:
As far as Clayton goes, I'm less impressed than some of you, but the sample size is still too small to draw a conclusion. At this point, neither Askew nor Clayton have shown me the vision, polish, and court sense of Shepherd.

agree on that point.

Shepard got a pre-draft workout from the Sac Kings this summer

sluggo

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In reply to HearstMining • 12:07p, 1/2/23

HearstMining said:
Yep, Brown had a career game against Colorado and has definitely improved as stated. Unfortunately, we should have had this discussion during his junior or even sophomore seasons. BROWN IS NOW A SENIOR. This season, various folks have launched similar discussions about Lars and KK and that's fine, too. Unfortunately, a team full of players who become Pac-12 competent only in their senior years is not a recipe for success. The current staff needs to land players who come in with a higher skill level and/or figure out how to develop the guys they do get quicker. With the possible exception of Newell, I see no indication that they can do that.

Sure, go ahead and point at Kelly as an exception, but I think Wyking recruited him, and it was obvious that Fox didn't allow Kelly to shoot outside ~8ft until the second half of last season.

As far as Clayton goes, I'm less impressed than some of you, but the sample size is still too small to draw a conclusion. At this point, neither Askew nor Clayton have shown me the vision, polish, and court sense of Shepherd.

Clayton is is his seventh year. If there was ever a player you could draw a conclusion about, it is he. He will shoot 40 percent from 2, 30% from 3, and 75% from the line. He will have good hesitation and step back moves. For a normal team that would not be great, but Cal is not a normal team.

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59bear

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In reply to HoopDreams • 7:29a, 1/3/23

HoopDreams said:
Joel Brown has always been good defensively and with ball handling,and has improvedin those areas to the point we almost need him on the court for those purposes only

but offensively he has had poor shooting and poor finishing at the rim, and a non-existent mid range game. FTs were an adventure

but this off season something changed

his shooting form is now very good from the three and line. he's not a great shooter from either place but improved. Another summer with a ton of reps and I'd expect further improvement

And he's finished at the rim a million times better than before. He learned that running hook off the backboard, a good shot over a shot blocker and when he can't cleanly drive past his man.

He learned some hesitatation, start, stop, up and under shots around the basket, instead of the one speed bull rush, throw up a prayer

Two games ago he even drove pulled the ball back and hit a 10 foot jumper. His defender expected him to drive all the way to the rack so Brown had a ton of distance from his defender to take his time and make his shot

When he does take it all the way to the basket he is finishing

Yesterday he hit a pressure cooked FT to ice the game

Shout out to Brown for putting in the work and improving so much. It's so nice to have a senior leader PG!

When I first saw him as a frosh I thought he might develop into player like Stevie Thompson (of a 30+ ago at Syracuse)....a non-shooter who could get points off steals and drives to the basket. That didn't come to pass in the way that I hoped but his defense has always been a plus and I do think he's improved substantially as a ball handler and (to a lesser degree) a shooter.

HearstMining

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In reply to 59bear • 7:53a, 1/3/23

59bear said:
HoopDreams said:
Joel Brown has always been good defensively and with ball handling,and has improvedin those areas to the point we almost need him on the court for those purposes only

but offensively he has had poor shooting and poor finishing at the rim, and a non-existent mid range game. FTs were an adventure

but this off season something changed

his shooting form is now very good from the three and line. he's not a great shooter from either place but improved. Another summer with a ton of reps and I'd expect further improvement

And he's finished at the rim a million times better than before. He learned that running hook off the backboard, a good shot over a shot blocker and when he can't cleanly drive past his man.

He learned some hesitatation, start, stop, up and under shots around the basket, instead of the one speed bull rush, throw up a prayer

Two games ago he even drove pulled the ball back and hit a 10 foot jumper. His defender expected him to drive all the way to the rack so Brown had a ton of distance from his defender to take his time and make his shot

When he does take it all the way to the basket he is finishing

Yesterday he hit a pressure cooked FT to ice the game

Shout out to Brown for putting in the work and improving so much. It's so nice to have a senior leader PG!

When I first saw him as a frosh I thought he might develop into player like Stevie Thompson (of a 30+ ago at Syracuse)....a non-shooter who could get points off steals and drives to the basket. That didn't come to pass in the way that I hoped but his defense has always been a plus and I do think he's improved substantially as a ball handler and (to a lesser degree) a shooter.

I agree with your comments but the name that popped into my mind (and others have mentioned this) was Prentice McGruder. I loved watching McGruder on defense - like a praying mantis ready to flick out an arm and slap the ball away. Brown's slightly smaller, but plays the same way. If the current team had better shooters, his lack of offense would not be as big an issue.

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