Looks good!

There may have been more talented transfers on the market, but Hyder represents an ideal fit for what this roster needed. A 3 year guy who can play like a true PG but who Fox can convince to back up Brown at the position for the next several years, who can also address our need at SG/lack of shooting.

Usually when someone is labeled as a combo guard, it means that the player in question is truly a SG who can play the 1 in a pinch. Hyder, however, seems to be a true PG AND a true SG. Love this pickup.

ManBearLion123 said:

---

There may have been more talented transfers on the market, but Hyder represents an ideal fit for what this roster needed. A 3 year guy who can play like a true PG but who Fox can convince to back up Brown at the position for the next several years, who can also address our need at SG/lack of shooting.

Usually when someone is labeled as a combo guard, it means that the player in question is truly a SG who can play the 1 in a pinch. Hyder, however, seems to be a true PG AND a true SG. Love this pickup.

---

I second your enthusiasm, but why does Fox have to convince Hyder to back up Brown for several years? Assuming Fox does not sign another point guard this year or next, wouldn't you like to have Hyder and Brown compete for the position of point guard? Why would you hand the job to Brown? What did you see in him that you don't see in Hyder?

Brown seems more athletic and quicker than the Hyder in the video, but Hyder seems the much better looking shooter. The video did not sho Hyder passing the ball, which I would have liked to have seen. Brown showed good defensive intuition and skills last season, but hardly any offensive skills, except he does not turn the ball over a lot. He had very little passing skill, court vision, leadership qualities, etc. Too often he dribbled around the perimeter with no clear objective, or drove the lane with no where to go, and got himself in trouble. He didn't make his free throws. Shot them at 40%. Worse than Sam Singer, who shot them at 50%. And if he is a point guard, he has to make his free throws, period. If I'm the coach, I have them go at it, mano a mano in practice, and who ever plays best, starts and gets the most minutes. Same thing for every position. I love defense and defensive players, but a point guard's main responsibility is the offense.

I agree, and I think that Hyder could potentially beat Brown out at the starting PG position.

I guess my point was that it's generally difficult to recruit a rising sophomore true PG to join a roster on which there is another (highly recruited) sophomore true PG. And doing so in a way that wouldn't irk the incumbent PG (as this might signal a lack of faith in the incumbent's potential).

That's why it's usually easier to sell a recruit on being a backup year 1 under an experienced player, with the potential to start year 2+ (a la Brown and Paris Austin).

Recruiting a guy like Hyder doesn't signal a lack of faith in Brown, as the two could potentially start alongside one another for the next 3 years given Hyder's fit at SG. However, if Brown falters, Hyder also represents another solid option at PG. Finding a guy seemingly equally adept at both positions (as Hyder is) is not easy...and was a savvy move for a long-term roster solution IMO.

Looks like a good athlete. And 6'3. I really like the pick up. I hope he can play this coming season.
If we can add the grad transfer scorer, I think the team can improve upon last season.

who 'starts' maybe different than who 'finishes'

each player has relative strengths and weaknesses, and when one player isn't clearly above the other, it often depends on matchups and game situation

Having seen both Brown and Hyder in person, it is my belief that it won't take long for Hyder to take over if he doesn't win the position outright before the season.....This is entirely my own opinion with nothing but eye-ball tests for info.....As Souse has said, we will see when they start to play the games.....With Bradley and Betley filling the 2 and 3 spots the majority of the time, Hyder will have to be playing PG to get many minutes and I truly believe we need him on the floor to avoid playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end....

HoopDreams said:

---

who 'starts' maybe different than who 'finishes'

each player has relative strengths and weaknesses, and when one player isn't clearly above the other, it often depends on matchups and game situation

---

and free throw shooting.

Nice!

I said before, that Fox should only take a PG who is the same year as Brown if there is a good chance he can beat Brown out. Otherwise look for a grad PG and take a freshman PG next year. Looks like Hyder meets the first criterion. Yes, he might play alongside Brown as the 2 some also, but if Hyder can play PG, unless we are trying to match up with a guard oriented team defensively, I think it would generally be better to get another wing on the court. We are not deep at guard.

However, with Hyder we could actually put 3, 4 or even 5 shooters on the floor. A huge improvement.

Kudos to Fox on this pickup.

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

Shot selection is something that can be coached, and I think Fox did a pretty good job with this with the team last year. We did a good job of working to get open shots last year, we just didn't have the guys (other than Bradley) who could consistently knock them down.

You not only have our coaches, but you also have Bradley (his friend and former teammate), to "encourage" Hyder to be smart with his shooting. It may be an issue early on, but like with Paris, it should get worked out relatively soon.

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

---

Like Coach K, I'm not really a "save his minutes for later" fan, unless it is a PG whose ball handling and free throw shooting is needed to ice a game at the end. Every basket counts, get the most minutes you can from your best players. And too many times I've seen guys sit much of a game with 3 fouls only to end up with 3. Besides, If they foul out they will learn a good lesson for the next game without you having to micromanage them. Not only do we have four players for the 2 front court positions, but if we really had to we could get by with just one of them and play a small forward at the 4, but I really doubt that would ever happen.

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

---

Like Coach K, I'm not really a "save his minutes for later" fan, unless it is a PG whose ball handling and free throw shooting is needed to ice a game at the end. Every basket counts, get the most minutes you can from your best players. And too many times I've seen guys sit much of a game with 3 fouls only to end up with 3. Besides, If they foul out they will learn a good lesson for the next game without you having to micromanage them. Not only do we have four players for the 2 front court positions, but if we really had to we could get by with just one of them and play a small forward at the 4, but I really doubt that would ever happen.

---

I think we have to be careful not to generalize too much. All games, opponents, and game situations can present different challenges requiring different strategies and tactics. You have to emphasize the strengths of each of your players, and try and give help to or even cover for the weaknesses of your players. And individual matchups are really important in deciding who you want to have on the floor.

Looking at the records, I was mistaken in saying that Kelly gets in foul trouble too often. He was only in foul trouble in a few games. On a per minute basis, Kelly ranks as only 5th worse in the rotation, as he fouls less than Thorpe, Thiemann, JHD and Kuany in that that order. But the fact remains that for whatever reason, he only averaged 22 minutes per game last season, and 19 in 2019. Is it stamina? He may need periods where he can rest. Are opponents outplaying him? If he is getting outplayed, Fox may need to try another player in Kelly's place. I'm guessing it is a combination of all three, that he gets tired in some stretches, gets outplayed sometimes, and has games where he fouls too often. Whatever the case or the cause, the fact is he has not shown the coach that he can play effectively for more than half a game.

Thiemann started most of the games at center. Thiemann was basically a place holder, to try and use up minutes at center, without giving up too much. Most of the time Cal did not lose games in the first half, and Cal played a lot of close games which went down to the wire. There were a few blowouts. I think Fox felt that in close games, he needed his best players on the floor at the end of the game at all positions. So he let Thiemann start and play most of his minutes in the first half. Cal did learn how to close out games, and got pretty good at it. Suppose Kelly exhausted most of his 22 minutes in the first half. The only way that works, would be if Cal could build a good lead at halftime, say 10-12 points, and to be honest, the Cal offense, even with Kelly playing, was not potent enough to do that. I think Fox played it right with Kelly last season, by having him come off the bench in most games, and not starting. My hope is that Kelly corrects whatever problem he was having, either stamina, or defensively, or committing too many fouls, and can become a 30-35 minute player for Fox. And until Cal gets a lot better both offensively and defensively, we will continue to have close games, and we need the best players we have on the floor at the end of games, unless Kelly is having a bad game shooting or he is giving up too much height in his matchup defensively, etc.

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

---

Like Coach K, I'm not really a "save his minutes for later" fan, unless it is a PG whose ball handling and free throw shooting is needed to ice a game at the end. Every basket counts, get the most minutes you can from your best players. And too many times I've seen guys sit much of a game with 3 fouls only to end up with 3. Besides, If they foul out they will learn a good lesson for the next game without you having to micromanage them. Not only do we have four players for the 2 front court positions, but if we really had to we could get by with just one of them and play a small forward at the 4, but I really doubt that would ever happen.

---

I think we have to be careful not to generalize too much. All games, opponents, and game situations can present different challenges requiring different strategies and tactics. You have to emphasize the strengths of each of your players, and try and give help to or even cover for the weaknesses of your players. And individual matchups are really important in deciding who you want to have on the floor.

Looking at the records, I was mistaken in saying that Kelly gets in foul trouble too often. He was only in foul trouble in a few games. On a per minute basis, Kelly ranks as only 5th worse in the rotation, as he fouls less than Thorpe, Thiemann, JHD and Kuany in that that order. But the fact remains that for whatever reason, he only averaged 22 minutes per game last season, and 19 in 2019. Is it stamina? He may need periods where he can rest. Are opponents outplaying him? If he is getting outplayed, Fox may need to try another player in Kelly's place. I'm guessing it is a combination of all three, that he gets tired in some stretches, gets outplayed sometimes, and has games where he fouls too often. Whatever the case or the cause, the fact is he has not shown the coach that he can play effectively for more than half a game.

Thiemann started most of the games at center. Thiemann was basically a place holder, to try and use up minutes at center, without giving up too much. Most of the time Cal did not lose games in the first half, and Cal played a lot of close games which went down to the wire. There were a few blowouts. I think Fox felt that in close games, he needed his best players on the floor at the end of the game at all positions. So he let Thiemann start and play most of his minutes in the first half. Cal did learn how to close out games, and got pretty good at it. Suppose Kelly exhausted most of his 22 minutes in the first half. The only way that works, would be if Cal could build a good lead at halftime, say 10-12 points, and to be honest, the Cal offense, even with Kelly playing, was not potent enough to do that. I think Fox played it right with Kelly last season, by having him come off the bench in most games, and not starting. My hope is that Kelly corrects whatever problem he was having, either stamina, or defensively, or committing too many fouls, and can become a 30-35 minute player for Fox. And until Cal gets a lot better both offensively and defensively, we will continue to have close games, and we need the best players we have on the floor at the end of games, unless Kelly is having a bad game shooting or he is giving up too much height in his matchup defensively, etc.

---

The reason to start Lars is for the opening tip.

Again, the idea that you "need your best players at the end of games" is a generally a fallacy, especially if you limit your best players minutes to save them for the end. You need your best players as much as possible. The team that scores the most points wins. A basket scored in the first half counts the same as a basket in the second half. It only seems that all game are close and decided in the final minute. It is an illusion. Many games are not close.

What does happen in the final minutes? Teams will be in the bonus or often intentionally fouling. There are a lot more free throws shot at the ends of games than earlier in games. That gives a comparative advantage to the player who is the better free throw shooter. If that is also your best player, then, yes you might want to save them especially if the back up is a poor foul shooter. However if you have Shaq, a great player but horrible free throw shooter, sitting him on the bench with foul trouble to save his minutes for the end just so he can get intentionally fouled makes zero sense. If the back up is the better free throw shooter, then you should generally just play your best player as much as possible (giving them a rest when they need one) and if they foul out then so be it. You will have gotten the most from them.

However, it is true the end of close games can be stressful, so in addition to free throw shooting you might want players on the court who won't "choke" under pressure and make unforced errors, especially your PG who might face a press as well.

Most important, Lars will be so much improved by next season all of these concerns will be obviated.

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

---

Like Coach K, I'm not really a "save his minutes for later" fan, unless it is a PG whose ball handling and free throw shooting is needed to ice a game at the end. Every basket counts, get the most minutes you can from your best players. And too many times I've seen guys sit much of a game with 3 fouls only to end up with 3. Besides, If they foul out they will learn a good lesson for the next game without you having to micromanage them. Not only do we have four players for the 2 front court positions, but if we really had to we could get by with just one of them and play a small forward at the 4, but I really doubt that would ever happen.

---

I think we have to be careful not to generalize too much. All games, opponents, and game situations can present different challenges requiring different strategies and tactics. You have to emphasize the strengths of each of your players, and try and give help to or even cover for the weaknesses of your players. And individual matchups are really important in deciding who you want to have on the floor.

Looking at the records, I was mistaken in saying that Kelly gets in foul trouble too often. He was only in foul trouble in a few games. On a per minute basis, Kelly ranks as only 5th worse in the rotation, as he fouls less than Thorpe, Thiemann, JHD and Kuany in that that order. But the fact remains that for whatever reason, he only averaged 22 minutes per game last season, and 19 in 2019. Is it stamina? He may need periods where he can rest. Are opponents outplaying him? If he is getting outplayed, Fox may need to try another player in Kelly's place. I'm guessing it is a combination of all three, that he gets tired in some stretches, gets outplayed sometimes, and has games where he fouls too often. Whatever the case or the cause, the fact is he has not shown the coach that he can play effectively for more than half a game.

Thiemann started most of the games at center. Thiemann was basically a place holder, to try and use up minutes at center, without giving up too much. Most of the time Cal did not lose games in the first half, and Cal played a lot of close games which went down to the wire. There were a few blowouts. I think Fox felt that in close games, he needed his best players on the floor at the end of the game at all positions. So he let Thiemann start and play most of his minutes in the first half. Cal did learn how to close out games, and got pretty good at it. Suppose Kelly exhausted most of his 22 minutes in the first half. The only way that works, would be if Cal could build a good lead at halftime, say 10-12 points, and to be honest, the Cal offense, even with Kelly playing, was not potent enough to do that. I think Fox played it right with Kelly last season, by having him come off the bench in most games, and not starting. My hope is that Kelly corrects whatever problem he was having, either stamina, or defensively, or committing too many fouls, and can become a 30-35 minute player for Fox. And until Cal gets a lot better both offensively and defensively, we will continue to have close games, and we need the best players we have on the floor at the end of games, unless Kelly is having a bad game shooting or he is giving up too much height in his matchup defensively, etc.

---

The reason to start Lars is for the opening tip.

Again, the idea that you "need your best players at the end of games" is a generally a fallacy, especially if you limit your best players minutes to save them for the end. You need your best players as much as possible. The team that scores the most points wins. A basket scored in the first half counts the same as a basket in the second half. It only seems that all game are close and decided in the final minute. It is an illusion. Many games are not close.

What does happen in the final minutes? Teams will be in the bonus or often intentionally fouling. There are a lot more free throws shot at the ends of games than earlier in games. That gives a comparative advantage to the player who is the better free throw shooter. If that is also your best player, then, yes you might want to save them especially if the back up is a poor foul shooter. However if you have Shaq, a great player but horrible free throw shooter, sitting him on the bench with foul trouble to save his minutes for the end just so he can get intentionally fouled makes zero sense. If the back up is the better free throw shooter, then you should generally just play your best player as much as possible (giving them a rest when they need one) and if they foul out then so be it. You will have gotten the most from them.

However, it is true the end of close games can be stressful, so in addition to free throw shooting you might want players on the court who won't "choke" under pressure and make unforced errors, especially your PG who might face a press as well.

---

If the reason for starting Lars was to get the opening tip, then he would be removed very soon, maybe immediately after the tip, and I don't remember that happening in most or all of his 18 starts. And if that was the reason he started, then why did he play and sometime start the 2nd half, where there is no opening tip?

You are talking in generalities, as they apply to average or above average teams. Cal is a team in a big hole, with a very young and incomplete roster, with a below average offense, trying to dig itself out of that hole. I am talking not about fantasy. I am talking about a real live Cal player, Andre Kelly, and actual Cal players who also play center.

By bringing up who shoots fouls at the end of the game, I think you just answered your own argument. Here are the free throw percentages for the Cal centers:

Kelly: 0.684

Thiemann: 0.487

Thorpe: 0.379

So if making free throws at the end of the game is your objective, who would you rather have shooting them, Kelly, Thiemann, or Thorpe? With Lars or DJ playing center in the final minutes of close games, opposing coaches will have two players to intentionally foul. Or do you want to take Grant out of position, put him at center and go small, or use skinny Kuany at center? Opposing coaches will easily scheme for that too. If you want made free throws, then Kelly is the best option for who plays center at the end of close games. If you want what Lars brings, then it is Lars, and if you want aggressiveness, some rebounding and some shot blocking, then DJ is the man. Every game is against different personnel and a different coach, and may require different strategies. Until we see different, Kelly only plays half a game, so you need to use his early minutes judiciously, so he can shoot free throws for you in the closing minutes.

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

91Cal said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

mdbear said:

---

I am a little concerned that Hyder only shot 38% from the field last year. Part of that is explained by the fact that almost half his shots were from 3 point range (he made 30% from beyond the arc). On the positive side, he was just a freshman and has time to improve. Also, he shot 83% from the free throw line, so the potential to be a good shooter is there.

---

Yeah, the highlight video shows a lot of high-degree-of-difficulty shots go in. I'm guessing the other part of the 38% is explained by most of those types of shots not falling.

---

I was thinking the same thing...from the limited film, it would appear that he can be streaky. A brief glance at his game log shows exactly that. 5-6 games shooting over 45% from the field including 8-10 v. St. Mary's.

I was surprised to see that he played over 30 minutes per game as a freshman...

It appears that his productivity waned later in the year, but his minutes didn't...sure hope that the transfer requirement to sit out a year is waived and he can contribute right away.

A small ball lineup of MB, Brown and Hyder up top is intriguing if Fox and the staff can get Hyder flying around on D as well.

---

Fox may go with that since he liked playing Austin and Brown at the same time, but I'd rather see us play Hyder at the point splitting time with Brown and get Kuany or one of the freshmen 3s on the court, allowing GA and Kelly to be on the floor together. I think that will give us a better starting five, better shooting, more size and better 9-10 player depth.

If Hyder struggles with his shot the above goes x10

---

Sounds good. Kelly gets in foul trouble too often though, and he would have to cut down on his fouls, for that to work. If he doesn't I'd like to save more of his minutes for later in the game, and let Theimann or Thorpe start at center.

---

Like Coach K, I'm not really a "save his minutes for later" fan, unless it is a PG whose ball handling and free throw shooting is needed to ice a game at the end. Every basket counts, get the most minutes you can from your best players. And too many times I've seen guys sit much of a game with 3 fouls only to end up with 3. Besides, If they foul out they will learn a good lesson for the next game without you having to micromanage them. Not only do we have four players for the 2 front court positions, but if we really had to we could get by with just one of them and play a small forward at the 4, but I really doubt that would ever happen.

---

I think we have to be careful not to generalize too much. All games, opponents, and game situations can present different challenges requiring different strategies and tactics. You have to emphasize the strengths of each of your players, and try and give help to or even cover for the weaknesses of your players. And individual matchups are really important in deciding who you want to have on the floor.

Looking at the records, I was mistaken in saying that Kelly gets in foul trouble too often. He was only in foul trouble in a few games. On a per minute basis, Kelly ranks as only 5th worse in the rotation, as he fouls less than Thorpe, Thiemann, JHD and Kuany in that that order. But the fact remains that for whatever reason, he only averaged 22 minutes per game last season, and 19 in 2019. Is it stamina? He may need periods where he can rest. Are opponents outplaying him? If he is getting outplayed, Fox may need to try another player in Kelly's place. I'm guessing it is a combination of all three, that he gets tired in some stretches, gets outplayed sometimes, and has games where he fouls too often. Whatever the case or the cause, the fact is he has not shown the coach that he can play effectively for more than half a game.

Thiemann started most of the games at center. Thiemann was basically a place holder, to try and use up minutes at center, without giving up too much. Most of the time Cal did not lose games in the first half, and Cal played a lot of close games which went down to the wire. There were a few blowouts. I think Fox felt that in close games, he needed his best players on the floor at the end of the game at all positions. So he let Thiemann start and play most of his minutes in the first half. Cal did learn how to close out games, and got pretty good at it. Suppose Kelly exhausted most of his 22 minutes in the first half. The only way that works, would be if Cal could build a good lead at halftime, say 10-12 points, and to be honest, the Cal offense, even with Kelly playing, was not potent enough to do that. I think Fox played it right with Kelly last season, by having him come off the bench in most games, and not starting. My hope is that Kelly corrects whatever problem he was having, either stamina, or defensively, or committing too many fouls, and can become a 30-35 minute player for Fox. And until Cal gets a lot better both offensively and defensively, we will continue to have close games, and we need the best players we have on the floor at the end of games, unless Kelly is having a bad game shooting or he is giving up too much height in his matchup defensively, etc.

---

The reason to start Lars is for the opening tip.

Again, the idea that you "need your best players at the end of games" is a generally a fallacy, especially if you limit your best players minutes to save them for the end. You need your best players as much as possible. The team that scores the most points wins. A basket scored in the first half counts the same as a basket in the second half. It only seems that all game are close and decided in the final minute. It is an illusion. Many games are not close.

What does happen in the final minutes? Teams will be in the bonus or often intentionally fouling. There are a lot more free throws shot at the ends of games than earlier in games. That gives a comparative advantage to the player who is the better free throw shooter. If that is also your best player, then, yes you might want to save them especially if the back up is a poor foul shooter. However if you have Shaq, a great player but horrible free throw shooter, sitting him on the bench with foul trouble to save his minutes for the end just so he can get intentionally fouled makes zero sense. If the back up is the better free throw shooter, then you should generally just play your best player as much as possible (giving them a rest when they need one) and if they foul out then so be it. You will have gotten the most from them.

However, it is true the end of close games can be stressful, so in addition to free throw shooting you might want players on the court who won't "choke" under pressure and make unforced errors, especially your PG who might face a press as well.

---

If the reason for starting Lars was to get the opening tip, then he would be removed very soon, maybe immediately after the tip, and I don't remember that happening in most or all of his 18 starts. And if that was the reason he started, then why did he play and sometime start the 2nd half, where there is no opening tip?

You are talking in generalities, as they apply to average or above average teams. Cal is a team in a big hole, with a very young and incomplete roster, with a below average offense, trying to dig itself out of that hole. I am talking not about fantasy. I am talking about a real live Cal player, Andre Kelly, and actual Cal players who also play center.

By bringing up who shoots fouls at the end of the game, I think you just answered your own argument. Here are the free throw percentages for the Cal centers:

Kelly: 0.684

Thiemann: 0.487

Thorpe: 0.379

So if making free throws at the end of the game is your objective, who would you rather have shooting them, Kelly, Thiemann, or Thorpe? With Lars or DJ playing center in the final minutes of close games, opposing coaches will have two players to intentionally foul. Or do you want to take Grant out of position, put him at center and go small, or use skinny Kuany at center? Opposing coaches will easily scheme for that too. If you want made free throws, then Kelly is the best option for who plays center at the end of close games. If you want what Lars brings, then it is Lars, and if you want aggressiveness, some rebounding and some shot blocking, then DJ is the man. Every game is against different personnel and a different coach, and may require different strategies. Until we see different, Kelly only plays half a game, so you need to use his early minutes judiciously, so he can shoot free throws for you in the closing minutes.

---

It is the opposite, teams with holes, teams with only a couple of good players, really need to maximize the minutes of their best players.

Again, that is mitigated only somewhat by the free throw shooting issue.

Thus, I would still play Kelly as much as possible and yes, if he fouled out and if it looks like the other team is going to resort to fouling (not a high % of games), I would play Grant at the 5 and Kuany at the 4.