When you observe on a daily basis the large percentage of people that are too stupid to drive, the mistake shootings this week make perfect sense when you think about putting a gun in those hands instead of a steering wheel.

……and then there's Fox News, the gift that keeps giving:

“The 84-year-old white man accused of shooting Black teen Ralph Yarl in the head for ringing the wrong doorbell “spent considerable time at home in a living room chair, watching conservative news programs at high volume,” one of his relatives told The New York Times…

— Matthew Dowd (@matthewjdowd) April 19, 2023

*When my father in law moved into an assisted living facility when he was in his 90's, my wife made management promise that they wouldn't let him watch Fox News because it got him do riled up.


"Tucker and Sean say the caravan is coming for me, the caravan is coming for me!"

https://abc7news.com/examining-gun-violence-following-string-of-tragic-shootings/13156967/

That's tragic news. Just like this one

UPDATE: Suspected Phone Charger Shoplifters Who Killed 26-Yr-Old Home Depot Employee, Are Arrested…Had Baby In Getaway Vehiclehttps://t.co/8ud7h4RuLa

— The Gateway Pundit (@gatewaypundit) April 20, 2023

MinotStateBeav said:

---

That's tragic news. Just like this one

UPDATE: Suspected Phone Charger Shoplifters Who Killed 26-Yr-Old Home Depot Employee, Are Arrested…Had Baby In Getaway Vehiclehttps://t.co/8ud7h4RuLa

— The Gateway Pundit (@gatewaypundit) April 20, 2023

---

Finally we all agree that we need even tougher gun laws.

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

bearister said:

---

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

---

The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

I'd like to earnestly give you lots of credit here.
I view your statement as important progress! Thank you!

Too often in politics these days, opposing camps become entrenched in positions if only to oppose the other, even when it becomes clear that the line they are holding makes little sense. Like trench warfare in WW1.

But here, you have opened a salvo to discussion. And that's what needs to happen.

I think the border and immigration is another area where both parties can agree there needs to be improvement from the status quo. But we aren't even able to discuss things. That's a shame.

Anyways, thank you for your attitude here.

….Wait. I just re-read your line.
You ARE proposing to take away guns from people who "probably aren't all mentally there", too, right?
Mental illness. Isn't that the echo explanation of every Red Hatter when there's a shooting?

Because, like, lookie here -

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476461/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-legality-of-shooters-weapons/

" 94 of the mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and April 2023 involved weapons which were obtained legally; a clear majority. Only 16 incidents involved guns that were obtained illegally. "

So, then, the problem would seem to be, by this measure, a problem with the gun owner, not so much the registration status of the gun.

What say thee to that?

I muse, perhaps owning a gun is a privilege that should be limited to mentally approved individuals. Annual checkups and licensure?

Because, ya know, we all go crazy at some point.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

bearister said:

---

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

---

The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

The getaway driver in the Home Depot slaying will walk on felony murder due to recent changes to that law.

Three released from prison under changes to CA murder law | Modesto Bee


https://www.modbee.com/news/local/crime/article269819457.html

calbear93 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

bearister said:

---

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

---

The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

I know this is not directly related to this case at hand, but I'm still waiting for a palatable argument to justify AR-15 ownership by civilians. Do you really need a rapid fire long gun that inflicts a soccer ball size exit wound?

The arguments I anticipate:
1. I let you take my machine gun, next you will come for my deer rifle; and
2. How are patriot militias going to save us from the Red Menace within without solid firepower?

bearister said:

---

I know this is not directly related to this case at hand, but I'm still waiting for a palatable argument to justify AR-15 ownership by civilians. Do you really need a rapid fire long gun that inflicts a soccer ball size exit wound?

The arguments I anticipate:
1. I let you take my machine gun, next you will come for my deer rifle; and
2. How are patriot militias going to save us from the Red Menace within within solid firepower?

---

AR-15 simply means Armalite (name of company that developed them) Rifle (not assault rifle like many idiot dem politicians try to sell you). They are not automatic rifles. They are semi-automatic, meaning one trigger press, one bullet fired. Literally no different than any pistol or rifle in existence outside bolt action. People like them because they're accurate and comfortable. That just makes them popular.

Only military are allowed automatic ARs.


This is a Ruger mini 14. Fires 5.56 ammo. Semi-auto..just like an AR. Looks less scary, so people don't complain about it.

….and apparently it takes advanced rocket science to figure out how to convert them to full auto.

bearister said:

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….and apparently it takes advanced rocket science to figure out how to convert them to full auto.

---

Well you're looking at serious prison time for doing that. But, a criminal is going to criminal.


Link about it

https://anthonyarms.com/gun/how-to-make-an-ar-15-fully-automatic/

Look at the bottom in the section "Should you do it" lol.

MinotStateBeav said:

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People like them (AR-15) because they're accurate and comfortable.

---

I know I'm always looking for "comfort" when pulling trigger in rapid sequence at fellow human beings.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

This is a Ruger mini 14. Fires 5.56 ammo. Semi-auto..just like an AR. Looks less scary, so people don't complain about it.

---

Or maybe it's because people don't USE them repeatedly in dastardly shootings.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

---

Good thing a grandchild didn't go snooping around in the closet and accidentally pull the trigger.

I know an 8th grader in 1980-81 got a pistol from a box in the closet and waited for his dad to come home from work, when he then shot him dead. On purpose.
Ooops.

concordtom said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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This is a Ruger mini 14. Fires 5.56 ammo. Semi-auto..just like an AR. Looks less scary, so people don't complain about it.

---

Or maybe it's because people don't USE them repeatedly in dastardly shootings.

---

and this is the end of the good faith discussion. later.

You wouldn't know a good faith discussion if it kicked you in your…

MinotStateBeav said:

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

---

Before you go, I wanted to give you credit for these points, too.

MinotStateBeav said:

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concordtom said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

This is a Ruger mini 14. Fires 5.56 ammo. Semi-auto..just like an AR. Looks less scary, so people don't complain about it.

---

Or maybe it's because people don't USE them repeatedly in dastardly shootings.

---

and this is the end of the good faith discussion. later.

---

Btw, if you were going to split on me, this was one of the weakest of my posts to split on.

concordtom said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

---

Before you go, I wanted to give you credit for these points, too.

---

Naw I disavow that statement now. Every loony like Aunbear89 should be able to purchase M60s and Javelins.

To be honest, I dont know how anyone can actually get on Highway 580 without thinking about whether it's a RISK or not.

DiabloWags said:

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To be honest, I dont know how anyone can actually get on Highway 580 without thinking about whether it's a RISK or not.

---

Friend of mine is a prosecutor for Alameda County.
He's had to get protection and wipe out his online identity for putting away gang members who murder.

Meanwhile, my brother in law just returned from 7 months in Qatar and walked into school with uniform on to greet his kids like he was some returning war hero.

Good god!
Give the praise to the judges and prosecutors who reside in every jurisdiction in this country!

…I know this is your favorite scene.

We have some good DA's.
Our biggest problem are a bunch of liberal Judges that dont want to see anyone do jail time.

Many of whom werent even voted on by voters, but appointed to fill vacancies by Arnold Schwarzenneger.
Contra Costa County is the poster child for liberal judges that have been handicapping the criminal justice system and the efforts that our law enforcement agencies are trying to provide.

DA Becton and her ADA's literally have to "package" more than a dozen charges just to get a Judge's attention when a defendant is in the County courthouse.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

Every loon should be able to purchase M60s and Javelins.

---

And tanks, too.
A tank would be a fine addition to a well organized militia.
2nd amendment, baby!

DiabloWags said:

---

We have some good DA's.
Our biggest problem are a bunch of liberal Judges that dont want to see anyone do jail time.

Many of whom werent even voted on by voters, but appointed to fill vacancies by Arnold Schwarzenneger.
Contra Costa County is the poster child for liberal judges that have been handicapping the criminal justice system and the efforts that our law enforcement agencies are trying to provide.

---

I think the solution is to admit that we cannot continue to nurture a hopeless failing underclass, and therefore support children better through education and community programs.

We spend a pittance on early education and our inner city schools need half or a third of the class sizes in order to connect with youth/students that don't get proper attention at home.

The result is that we create our own problems of crime in the future.

The well off can pay for it in crime coming at them or in crime prevention.

What's the amount of money our country spends on military, policing and incarceration vs education and community support?

…Working post in process…

https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics#public

https://www.heraldnet.com/opinion/u-s-spends-far-more-on-military-than-on-education/

https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiatives/state-and-local-finance-initiative/state-and-local-backgrounders/criminal-justice-police-corrections-courts-expenditures#Question1Police

MinotStateBeav said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

bearister said:

---

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

---

The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

---

I went for a run and come back to just more personal insults directed at specific individuals from both sides. No need for so much SDE.

I think when you get beyond the insults and actually discuss issues while putting tribal allegiance aside, you will find there is a lot of common ground.

Looking at this, I would like to address two issues.

"Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners."

I am not debating whether it is a pain to register every year. I am sure it is. It is a question of whether the imposition on the citizens is outweighed by a compelling state interest. I think it is just looking at the universally agreed horror of people who should not have had guns killing children and innocent people going about their business. If someone has to be made to register to even reduce a small percentage of kids getting shot while in school, I am for it. I would love to understand why someone would not.

We create impositions for less important things, like renewing drivers' license every year, registering cars every year, renewing state bar registration, etc. This is just part of life, I believe, and part of social contract that we will participate, including making some sacrifice of time to register if you want to enjoy your gun, so that some of us can be a bit more protected from random killing.

One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

Data privacy is important, and there can be protection from general public or unauthorized individuals accessing your information. This should be made available to law enforcement, and that is just another balancing of costs and benefits. When we become citizens and vote, it exposes us to being called to jury duty. When we register to drive, it exposes our data to law enforcement.

And if China or Russia invades, it will be with weapons of mass destruction. Guns will not do anything. It will be more against our own citizens and government.

Good discussion.

calbear93 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

bearister said:

---

That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

---

The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

---

I went for a run and come back to just more personal insults directed at specific individuals from both sides. No need for so much SDE.

I think when you get beyond the insults and actually discuss issues while putting tribal allegiance aside, you will find there is a lot of common ground.

Looking at this, I would like to address two issues.

"Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners."

I am not debating whether it is a pain to register every year. I am sure it is. It is a question of whether the imposition on the citizens is outweighed by a compelling state interest. I think it is just looking at the universally agreed horror of people who should not have had guns killing children and innocent people going about their business. If someone has to be made to register to even reduce a small percentage of kids getting shot while in school, I am for it. I would love to understand why someone would not.

We create impositions for less important things, like renewing drivers' license every year, registering cars every year, renewing state bar registration, etc. This is just part of life, I believe, and part of social contract that we will participate, including making some sacrifice of time to register if you want to enjoy your gun, so that some of us can be a bit more protected from random killing.

One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

Data privacy is important, and there can be protection from general public or unauthorized individuals accessing your information. This should be made available to law enforcement, and that is just another balancing of costs and benefits. When we become citizens and vote, it exposes us to being called to jury duty. When we register to drive, it exposes our data to law enforcement.

And if China or Russia invades, it will be with weapons of mass destruction. Guns will not do anything. It will be more against our own citizens and government.

Good discussion.

---

The bigger worry with lists is more to do with our own government. The 2nd Amendment is to keep our own government in check. Every dictator in history began with seizing their populations firearms. The Soviet Union and its satellites were de-armed, Nazi Germany, Cuba, Venezuela, China.

South Africa is pretty close to total confiscation now. Although politicians from the African National Congress (ANC) party have recently backed down from ramming land confiscation legistation into law, there is no telling what could be in store for South Africans now that gun confiscation has been activated.

Why would you want to give your government that power is beyond me. Ever since Trump was elected, I've never seen so many democrats rushing to get firearms lol. As much as I love law enforcement, they are an arm of the government.

In terms of registering your firearm every year, why? Whether your gun is registered or not isn't going to make the gun less dangerous. You keep firearms away from children by having gun safes. Most states have a requirement that you own a gun safe. (They are not cheap either). Rural parents usually teach their children gun safety from a young age, but still keep the firearms in a gun safe. Kids are kids. They do dumb things. You hardly ever hear about rural kids bringing guns to school. That seems to be an urban problem specifically. I'd guess with firearms that aren't registered at all from parents that don't give a dang. If rural parents have their guns in safes, so should urban parents. Either these kids are getting guns off the streets, or have free access to them from sh*tty parents.

How can you be the same guy I blocked many months ago?

I think you went out for more than a run.
Paul? Is that you?

MinotStateBeav said:

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calbear93 said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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calbear93 said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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bearister said:

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That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

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The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

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Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

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I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

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I went for a run and come back to just more personal insults directed at specific individuals from both sides. No need for so much SDE.

I think when you get beyond the insults and actually discuss issues while putting tribal allegiance aside, you will find there is a lot of common ground.

Looking at this, I would like to address two issues.

"Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners."

I am not debating whether it is a pain to register every year. I am sure it is. It is a question of whether the imposition on the citizens is outweighed by a compelling state interest. I think it is just looking at the universally agreed horror of people who should not have had guns killing children and innocent people going about their business. If someone has to be made to register to even reduce a small percentage of kids getting shot while in school, I am for it. I would love to understand why someone would not.

We create impositions for less important things, like renewing drivers' license every year, registering cars every year, renewing state bar registration, etc. This is just part of life, I believe, and part of social contract that we will participate, including making some sacrifice of time to register if you want to enjoy your gun, so that some of us can be a bit more protected from random killing.

One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

Data privacy is important, and there can be protection from general public or unauthorized individuals accessing your information. This should be made available to law enforcement, and that is just another balancing of costs and benefits. When we become citizens and vote, it exposes us to being called to jury duty. When we register to drive, it exposes our data to law enforcement.

And if China or Russia invades, it will be with weapons of mass destruction. Guns will not do anything. It will be more against our own citizens and government.

Good discussion.

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The bigger worry with lists is more to do with our own government. The 2nd Amendment is to keep our own government in check. Every dictator in history began with seizing their populations firearms. The Soviet Union and its satellites were de-armed, Nazi Germany, Cuba, Venezuela, China.

South Africa is pretty close to total confiscation now. Although politicians from the African National Congress (ANC) party have recently backed down from ramming land confiscation legistation into law, there is no telling what could be in store for South Africans now that gun confiscation has been activated.

Why would you want to give your government that power is beyond me. Ever since Trump was elected, I've never seen so many democrats rushing to get firearms lol. As much as I love law enforcement, they are an arm of the government.

In terms of registering your firearm every year, why? Whether your gun is registered or not isn't going to make the gun less dangerous. You keep firearms away from children by having gun safes. Most states have a requirement that you own a gun safe. (They are not cheap either). Rural parents usually teach their children gun safety from a young age, but still keep the firearms in a gun safe. Kids are kids. They do dumb things. You hardly ever hear about rural kids bringing guns to school. That seems to be an urban problem specifically. I'd guess with firearms that aren't registered at all from parents that don't give a dang. If rural parents have their guns in safes, so should urban parents. Either these kids are getting guns off the streets, or have free access to them from sh*tty parents.

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Couple of points.

If our government became facist, guns will not protect you. The military has better guns and bigger weapons. If that is the rationale for risking children's life now, I think it is a bit misplaced.

I also find it odd that you give your data to everything, including to tech companies to get you to become more radicalized so that you spend more time on their platform, to China through TikTok and their products, to even our government to drive, to start a business, to pay taxes, to votes, etc., but you draw the line at guns? Why? If you are a law abiding gun owner, our government will not be interested in you. Nothing to gain from government wasting their limited resources on people like you and me.

And why register? I thought you asked how we could get guns away from someone like that crazy 80 year old who always had that gun. You said you were all ears. Responsible owners will treat gun registration as part of their good gun discipline, like locking their guns away, keeping it away from kids, making sure that the family knows good gun safety measures.

Seems like you say you want to keep guns away from bad folks but are not willing to make even the slightest imposition or sacrifice to do so. It's like a parent who says they love their kids but does nothing to take care of them. Actions and willingness to sacrifice says a lot more than thoughts and prayers (and I say this as a fundamental Christian).

Grandson turns against shooter grandfather, with explanation:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fear-paranoia-grandson-says-andrew-020050633.html

Ludwig said he and his grandfather, who goes by the first name Dan, used to be very close.

"But in the last five or six years or so, I feel like we've lost touch," he said. "I've gotten older and gained my own political views, and he's become staunchly right-wing, further down the right-wing rabbit hole as far as doing the election-denying conspiracy stuff and COVID conspiracies and disinformation, fully buying into the Fox News, OAN kind of line. I feel like it's really further radicalized him in a lot of ways."

Ludwig said his grandfather had been immersed in "a 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia."

"And then the NRA pushing the 'stand your ground' stuff and that you have to defend your home," he said. "When I heard what happened, I was appalled and shocked that it transpired, but I didn't disbelieve that it was true. The second I heard it, I was like, 'Yeah, I could see him doing that.'"

calbear93 said:

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Responsible owners will treat gun registration as part of their good gun discipline, like locking their guns away, keeping it away from kids, making sure that the family knows good gun safety measures.

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How about if we add technology to guns and their safes so that it can be captured and recorded when the gun is IN the safe vs NOT In the safe?

That would encourage adherence to protocol.

We have trackers for wallets and car keys and luggage and….
Everyone has WiFi now.
Why not just add this feature.

Law abiding gun owners should comply, no?

calbear93 said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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calbear93 said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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calbear93 said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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bearister said:

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That was shocking. Even security guards are told to only "observe and report." My hunch is that since it was a woman, he never saw it coming for her to yank a piece. Women just don't do that. If it had been a man, he would have appreciated the risk more.

On KTVU I heard that the female shooter was also a security guard by trade and that she ended up in the hospital as a result of the encounter (the decedent and her got into a struggle).

I was able to confirm the hospitalization in the story below.

Employee Shot and Killed While Trying to Stop Theft Inside Pleasanton Home Depot NBC Bay Area


https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/home-depot-pleasanton-shooting/3208559/

From story:
"Security experts said this tragedy shouldn't have happened considering the newest state regulations for security guards.

"The general rule of thumb whether your an employee, security guard or loss prevention, is observe and report, there's cameras in stores, there are witnesses, it's much better to be a witness and be alive than to be a participant and get injured or killed," said Michael Leininger, retired police officer and security consultant."

*This story supports my point. Far too many guns in circulation…..and stories like this simply fuel the sales of guns to incompetent vigilantes.

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The chance that gun is registered is slim to none. Obvious drug addicts who no doubt have a record so they can't purchase a gun legally. No law is going to stop the unregistered glock. The case above(the 80 year old) is tragic because a guy who's probably mentally not all there has a firearm he's probably owned for decades. If you can figure out how to get unregistered firearms off the street without destroying the 2nd amendment, I'm all ears.

---

Law isn't meant to ensure 100% compliance but the penalty has to be big enough that it deter folks who want to disregard it. Annual registration of firearm and with significant punishment for failure to comply. Similar to drivers license and make any felony committed with an unregistered gun an automatic life imprisonment. NRA would never agree to real penalty for failure to register because they are all talk and deception necessary for their leadership to engage in corrupt enrichment.

---

I'm completely in agreement that people with diagnosed mental illness should have their weapons seized until they're medically cleared or permanently if needed. Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners. One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

I should add, I'm not a gun owner, but if I lived in the boonies I would be. My grandfather lived in the mountains outside Marysville. Lot of meth heads and labs seemed to be attracted to those places. He needed a shotgun for protection, simply because if he had to rely on law enforcement it would be too late lol. 40-60 min response times.

---

I went for a run and come back to just more personal insults directed at specific individuals from both sides. No need for so much SDE.

I think when you get beyond the insults and actually discuss issues while putting tribal allegiance aside, you will find there is a lot of common ground.

Looking at this, I would like to address two issues.

"Annual registration seems a bit much. There should have to be a reason to re-register, not a big fan of making people continually pay money to have their own guns guaranteed by the constitution lol. Also you have to be careful about having "lists" of gun owners."

I am not debating whether it is a pain to register every year. I am sure it is. It is a question of whether the imposition on the citizens is outweighed by a compelling state interest. I think it is just looking at the universally agreed horror of people who should not have had guns killing children and innocent people going about their business. If someone has to be made to register to even reduce a small percentage of kids getting shot while in school, I am for it. I would love to understand why someone would not.

We create impositions for less important things, like renewing drivers' license every year, registering cars every year, renewing state bar registration, etc. This is just part of life, I believe, and part of social contract that we will participate, including making some sacrifice of time to register if you want to enjoy your gun, so that some of us can be a bit more protected from random killing.

One of the things gun owners are vehemently against is lists. They don't want the government to have the power to systematically go after every gun owner. Also if a foreign government were to take over, they wouldn't know who owns weapons (yes unlikely scenario, still a reason no country will ever invade the US.)

Data privacy is important, and there can be protection from general public or unauthorized individuals accessing your information. This should be made available to law enforcement, and that is just another balancing of costs and benefits. When we become citizens and vote, it exposes us to being called to jury duty. When we register to drive, it exposes our data to law enforcement.

And if China or Russia invades, it will be with weapons of mass destruction. Guns will not do anything. It will be more against our own citizens and government.

Good discussion.

---

The bigger worry with lists is more to do with our own government. The 2nd Amendment is to keep our own government in check. Every dictator in history began with seizing their populations firearms. The Soviet Union and its satellites were de-armed, Nazi Germany, Cuba, Venezuela, China.

South Africa is pretty close to total confiscation now. Although politicians from the African National Congress (ANC) party have recently backed down from ramming land confiscation legistation into law, there is no telling what could be in store for South Africans now that gun confiscation has been activated.

Why would you want to give your government that power is beyond me. Ever since Trump was elected, I've never seen so many democrats rushing to get firearms lol. As much as I love law enforcement, they are an arm of the government.

In terms of registering your firearm every year, why? Whether your gun is registered or not isn't going to make the gun less dangerous. You keep firearms away from children by having gun safes. Most states have a requirement that you own a gun safe. (They are not cheap either). Rural parents usually teach their children gun safety from a young age, but still keep the firearms in a gun safe. Kids are kids. They do dumb things. You hardly ever hear about rural kids bringing guns to school. That seems to be an urban problem specifically. I'd guess with firearms that aren't registered at all from parents that don't give a dang. If rural parents have their guns in safes, so should urban parents. Either these kids are getting guns off the streets, or have free access to them from sh*tty parents.

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Couple of points.

If our government became facist, guns will not protect you. The military has better guns and bigger weapons. If that is the rationale for risking children's life now, I think it is a bit misplaced.

how did the cave people of afghanistan just boot out the most powerful military in the world? or Vietnam? Fighting against people that look like everyone else sucks.

I also find it odd that you give your data to everything, including to tech companies to get you to become more radicalized so that you spend more time on their platform, to China through TikTok and their products, to even our government to drive, to start a business, to pay taxes, to votes, etc., but you draw the line at guns? Why? If you are a law abiding gun owner, our government will not be interested in you. Nothing to gain from government wasting their limited resources on people like you and me.

Giving data about where I shop, or if I pay my taxes doesn't have any bearing on if the government knows I'm a threat to their rule. If I'm a law abiding gun owner, my government won't know I have guns. Unless we make lists.

And why register? I thought you asked how we could get guns away from someone like that crazy 80 year old who always had that gun. You said you were all ears. Responsible owners will treat gun registration as part of their good gun discipline, like locking their guns away, keeping it away from kids, making sure that the family knows good gun safety measures.

I mean why register every year? There's no point to do that except to annoy gun owners and make them pay for their already owned firearm over and over. To get a gun in a democrat state is already a huge pain in the ass. In Oregon, you have to take a firearms safety course to even have the ability to purchase a gun, and those courses only happen like twice a year..so if you are busy and can't make it..better luck next year and every state has a mandatory waiting period background check already.

Seems like you say you want to keep guns away from bad folks but are not willing to make even the slightest imposition or sacrifice to do so. It's like a parent who says they love their kids but does nothing to take care of them. Actions and willingness to sacrifice says a lot more than thoughts and prayers (and I say this as a fundamental Christian).

Legal gun owners aren't the bad folks. That's what these new laws and lists would effect. Criminals don't care about your laws. But there are loopholes in the system. I think it has something to do with gun shows in some states..but don't quote me on that. When you purchase a firearm from a gun store, they do a background check on you. You can't purchase a gun for somebody else, the store owner will not sell you that gun. A lot of times you see these mass shootings where the idiot parents who generally ignore their disturbed children purchase firearms for them. Because what a healthy practice that is to buy a firearm for your black trenchcoat wearing goth teen. That's illegal, but only if an officer catches that little disturbed murderer with the firearm at a range or in the boonies shooting beer cans, or on a traffic stop. Like I said, that's criminal, we have laws against it, but criminals don't care about our laws.

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