Washington Drops Cal, 87-52

That was just sad to watch.

Civil Bear said:

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That was just sad to watch.

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Anticevich + Bradley + Kelly + Paris + South = 8 for 33

bearister said:

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Civil Bear said:

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That was just sad to watch.

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Anticevich + Bradley + Kelly + Paris + South = 8 for 33

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Regarding Kelly, how come Kelly (perhaps our second best player) only plays 8 minutes?

And how did he manage to foul out of the game in less than 8 minutes of playing time?

That might be a Cal record. Jaylen Brown fouled out of the the Hawaii game in 17 minutes, and Kelly did it in less than half the time.

At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

Terrible officiating today

UW bigs were throwing their bodies into our our players hard, yet we get called for the foul?

The defenders do have rights to their spot

Kelly should have pulled the chair and watch Stewart stumble to the ground

That's gonna leave a mark!

bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

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Coast to coast is the name of the game. Take it to the rim, baby!

HoopDreams said:

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Terrible officiating today

UW bigs were throwing their bodies into our our players hard, yet we get called for the foul?

The defenders do have rights to their spot

Kelly should have pulled the chair and watch Stewart stumble to the ground

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HD nailed it. Sometimes you'll observe a ref who seems to have a personal bias against a player, coach or team. However, in this case, I just don't think this crew knew how to officiate this game. They were focused on ticky tack stuff inside (and thus Kelly was in trouble) and seemed to completely ignore what was happening on the perimeter. It was so egregious by UW, that they actually DID call at least two 3pt fouls, but missed a dozen others.

bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

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True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

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I wouldn't blame colleges. It is high schools and middle schools that have dropped the ball. They may not be saying, "Let colleges develop players," but they are leaving it to the AAU and to the colleges and NBA to do it. Fundamentals used to be taught beginning at least at the 9th grade level, and often before that. When I grew up in the 1950s, public schools taught fundamentals this way, but the Catholic schools were way ahead of us, forming teams and teaching the game in the first grade. By the time we all reached high school, the Catholic school teams usually all had better teams than the public schools, because they had 8 years of being coached and playing games and the rest of us had at best about 3 years of coaching before high school. We often had more talented players, but they beat the stuffing out of us, because they had learned fundamentals at an early age. College once was a place to learn advanced playmaking, perfecting two-man plays, and sophisticated defense, and it still is, but college coaches to be successful, must either recruit great talent, or develop fundamentals in their players, or both. One problem is the pay for high school coaches is low, or there is none, and it is often voluntary. I had a few buddies who tried teaching an academic subject and coaching, but soon game up the coaching because the extra pay was not worth it, and the time was better spent with their own families.

Kids, even ranked recruits, arriving as freshmen in college, who don't know a how to shoot a layup without a jump-stop, or don't know how to shoot a layup with their off hand, or don't know how to box out for a rebound, or don't know how to get into a proper defensive stance, a crouch where you can quickly react to an offensive player - well, it's a damn travesty. And some of these players arrive in the NBA missing simple skills like these. The stars will always be stars, but the players who could improve with coaching aren't getting it before college.

Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

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Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

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Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

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Forgot about that Waves center. Could you link something that reported out that he was booted?

socaltownie said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

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Forgot about that Waves center. Could you link something that reported out that he was booted?

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Who are the Waves? We didn't play Pepperdine nor Tulane; we played Hawaii (who are the Rainbow Warriors)

SFCityBear said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

I wouldn't blame colleges. It is high schools and middle schools that have dropped the ball. They may not be saying, "Let colleges develop players," but they are leaving it to the AAU and to the colleges and NBA to do it. Fundamentals used to be taught beginning at least at the 9th grade level, and often before that. When I grew up in the 1950s, public schools taught fundamentals this way, but the Catholic schools were way ahead of us, forming teams and teaching the game in the first grade. By the time we all reached high school, the Catholic school teams usually all had better teams than the public schools, because they had 8 years of being coached and playing games and the rest of us had at best about 3 years of coaching before high school. We often had more talented players, but they beat the stuffing out of us, because they had learned fundamentals at an early age. College once was a place to learn advanced playmaking, perfecting two-man plays, and sophisticated defense, and it still is, but college coaches to be successful, must either recruit great talent, or develop fundamentals in their players, or both. One problem is the pay for high school coaches is low, or there is none, and it is often voluntary. I had a few buddies who tried teaching an academic subject and coaching, but soon game up the coaching because the extra pay was not worth it, and the time was better spent with their own families.

Kids, even ranked recruits, arriving as freshmen in college, who don't know a how to shoot a layup without a jump-stop, or don't know how to shoot a layup with their off hand, or don't know how to box out for a rebound, or don't know how to get into a proper defensive stance, a crouch where you can quickly react to an offensive player - well, it's a damn travesty. And some of these players arrive in the NBA missing simple skills like these. The stars will always be stars, but the players who could improve with coaching aren't getting it before college.

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SFCity - the way the system is these days for most sports, high school sports suck. Kids play their sport year round. Outside of high school, the good players join teams that pull from areas that may cover 10-20 high schools. Some sports, the good players don't even bother with high school. For many others, when they do go play high school they split up into teams that may have one or two players who put in the time to be fundamentally sound. And remember, multiple sport stars are rare now. Most kids play one sport year around, so just fielding enough bodies for a sport can be a challenge. Where do you think coaches want to coach? For a private team where all the players are dedicated to the sport and where you can take the best players over a large area who are willing to work year round on the sport, and whose parents pay $2500-$5000 per season (so you get paid and are able to have the best equipment and fields/courts and other resources). Or would you rather take less money to coach a team where half the kids barely care and your best players are mainly there to pass the time until their real season playing with the best against the best starts, while having substandard pay, fields/courts, and resources.

So yeah, the coaching is taking place in AAU and travel ball. Few really good high school coaches stick anymore.

4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

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Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

Stanford Jonah said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Regarding Kelly, how come Kelly (perhaps our second best player) only plays 8 minutes?

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5 fouls has a tendency to cut down on playing time

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He fouled out with 16 minutes to go, so he played only 8 out of the first 24 minutes, which is what I was writing about. It has been explained in this forum that the refs or a ref may have had it in for Kelly.

SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

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Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

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This is your take cause it fits your narrative that stars don't matter.
(BTW - my bad - I don't know WHY I want to keep calling the Hawaii teams "The Waves". Must be my longing for a return to the North Shore)

And it also is a case of not remembering the game rather than focusing on the box score.

Because we lost Bird and Wallace (and lets not forget about the sexual harassment crap earlier that week) we started Sam...who had ZERO assists from the Point guard position. And was NOT an upper pac-12 guard level player (good kid but not an upper tier PG)

It is worth remembering that Ty comes back from his first hand injury against Oregon around mid-February. OVer the next 10 games he averages 4.2 assists and I believe over 17 points (unlike you I don't sit there with a calculator). While Wallace could drive one to drink by the end of his senior year he was getting it - not just looking to drive all the time but also understanding that when he did it opened things up for Mathews and Bird (and sometimes to Rabb and Brown cutting).

Moreover, with Bird AND Wallace out it meant that Hawaii could collapse with impunity. Brown struggled (a lot) in that game but not just because he did the whole "put head down and go" hero ball - it was because once they started to double Mathews everytime he touched the ball we had NO outside shooting. Rabb in his Frosh year was NOT strong enough to go against a senior who could muscle him off the block. You see both of those things in the box score - the bears shooting 0 of 11 other than Mathews from outside and just TWO Field goals from the shortened bench.

Of all the things that rises my blood pressure, in addition to the endless block of words from your posts (paragraphs are your FRIENDS), it is that you want this one game to stand as the evidence that "stars don't matter"). Of course we saw that in spades in Seattle last week - as Washington's studs simply abused our guys. We are better coached. You could see that. And then, once they needed a shot or a stop sheer athletic ability kicked in and they got it....while we tried to have our nice guy Grant brick shots that most 4 stars hit in their sleep.

Stanford Jonah said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Regarding Kelly, how come Kelly (perhaps our second best player) only plays 8 minutes?

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5 fouls has a tendency to cut down on playing time

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He fouled out with 16 minutes to go, so he played only 8 out of the first 24 minutes, which is what I was writing about. It has been explained in this forum that the refs or a ref may have had it in for Kelly.

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Ref hating in a 30 point loss is pretty lame IMO.

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LOL

SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

---

Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

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"Lowly" 28-5 Hawaii? And we playing with no Bird or Wallace or even Brown after 17 minutes and Sam Singer at PG until he fouled out and Chauca had to play? PG is critical, especially in the NCAA tournament. Wallace had his deficiencies as a PG, but he was far better than the two guys behind him.

Our established starting five played 76 minutes. Our normal reserves played 124 minutes.

No way we lose with Brown, Bird and especially Wallace.

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

---

Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

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"Lowly" 28-5 Hawaii? And we playing with no Bird or Wallace or even Brown after 17 minutes and Sam Singer at PG until he fouled out and Chauca had to play? PG is critical, especially in the NCAA tournament. Wallace had his deficiencies as a PG, but he was far better than the two guys behind him.

Our established starting five played 76 minutes. Our normal reserves played 124 minutes.

No way we lose with Brown, Bird and especially Wallace.

---

agree. No way we lose if we even had Wallace. Remember, Wallace was a senior and our best PG. The Hawaii guards were undersized, scrappy and good defenders, but I think Wallace would have ate them alive.

the biggest problem was our backup PG (Singer got two quick fouls and had to sit). Coach had to put seldom used Chauca in, who couldn't even advance the ball on Hawaii's guards. Coach, now desperate even tried to use Brown at PG, and we know that didn't go well.

If we had Wallace, Chauca and Brown never play PG, and Singer would slide back into his role as (a solid) backup PG (actually, he did well in the second half of that game)

Brown wouldn't have needed to force it as much, and been able to stay in the game

The fact that Bird was out meant Domingo and Roger had to play, but they didn't do much either

Losing Wallace was huge. Losing both Wallace and Bird meant we had little used role players on the court much more than during those home game season sweep

Rating Domingo as a 4 star is a travesty....stating that Hawaii had 4 unranked players is a stretch....Every player who is recruited is at least a 2 star.....Please show me a single example of a 1 star recruit....there are none....Roderick Bobbitt was a highly rated guard in high school in Castro Valley but he didn't have the grades to go to D1 out of HS...he went to JC and was pretty heavily recruited out of JC.....Quincy Smith was another JC guy who played at CCSF and was recruited by several D1 programs....I think this was another exaggeration to try and prove a point....I don't think our lineup for that Hawaii game could have beat Washington State.....

HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

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True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

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Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

---

Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

---

"Lowly" 28-5 Hawaii? And we playing with no Bird or Wallace or even Brown after 17 minutes and Sam Singer at PG until he fouled out and Chauca had to play? PG is critical, especially in the NCAA tournament. Wallace had his deficiencies as a PG, but he was far better than the two guys behind him.

Our established starting five played 76 minutes. Our normal reserves played 124 minutes.

No way we lose with Brown, Bird and especially Wallace.

---

agree. No way we lose if we even had Wallace. Remember, Wallace was a senior and our best PG. The Hawaii guards were undersized, scrappy and good defenders, but I think Wallace would have ate them alive.

the biggest problem was our backup PG (Singer got two quick fouls and had to sit). Coach had to put seldom used Chauca in, who couldn't even advance the ball on Hawaii's guards. Coach, now desperate even tried to use Brown at PG, and we know that didn't go well.

If we had Wallace, Chauca and Brown never play PG, and Singer would slide back into his role as (a solid) backup PG (actually, he did well in the second half of that game)

Brown wouldn't have needed to force it as much, and been able to stay in the game

The fact that Bird was out meant Domingo and Roger had to play, but they didn't do much either

Losing Wallace was huge. Losing both Wallace and Bird meant we had little used role players on the court much more than during those home game season sweep

---

Folks seem to forget about the Yani fiasco blowing up that week as well. We cannot discredit the impact that had on the team's focus going into the tourney. If the table had ever been properly set for an upset, that was the time.

Civil Bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

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bearister said:

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At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

---

Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

---

"Lowly" 28-5 Hawaii? And we playing with no Bird or Wallace or even Brown after 17 minutes and Sam Singer at PG until he fouled out and Chauca had to play? PG is critical, especially in the NCAA tournament. Wallace had his deficiencies as a PG, but he was far better than the two guys behind him.

Our established starting five played 76 minutes. Our normal reserves played 124 minutes.

No way we lose with Brown, Bird and especially Wallace.

---

agree. No way we lose if we even had Wallace. Remember, Wallace was a senior and our best PG. The Hawaii guards were undersized, scrappy and good defenders, but I think Wallace would have ate them alive.

the biggest problem was our backup PG (Singer got two quick fouls and had to sit). Coach had to put seldom used Chauca in, who couldn't even advance the ball on Hawaii's guards. Coach, now desperate even tried to use Brown at PG, and we know that didn't go well.

If we had Wallace, Chauca and Brown never play PG, and Singer would slide back into his role as (a solid) backup PG (actually, he did well in the second half of that game)

Brown wouldn't have needed to force it as much, and been able to stay in the game

The fact that Bird was out meant Domingo and Roger had to play, but they didn't do much either

Losing Wallace was huge. Losing both Wallace and Bird meant we had little used role players on the court much more than during those home game season sweep

---

Folks seem to forget about the Yani fiasco blowing up that week as well. We cannot discredit the impact that had on the team's focus going into the tourney. If the table had ever been properly set for an upset, that was the time.

---

That was the usual Cal parade of terribles in what should have been a shining moment. See recruiting implosion caused by Tosh.

Another thing about the game as coaches/team found out Bird couldn't go during pregame warmups

They had to instantly improvise

Kinda the perfect storm

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Uthaithani said:

---

bearister said:

---

At the end of his only season at Cal, Jaylen was so poorly coached up, that by half time he had 3 offensive fouls from dribbling in a straight line down the center of the key knocking defenders over like bowling pins.

---

True. From a developmental standpoint, Jaylen's year at Cal was a complete waste. The coaching he's received since he moved on to the NBA, however, has been excellent.

Seems like college programs these days have to choose either assistants who can coach and develop players or assistants who can recruit. The programs where talented players are brought in and developed are few and far between. Seems like most colleges are just leaving it to the NBA to develop talent.

---

Actually the coaches time and time again pulled film and showed him the habits he was doing over and over (head down and trying to create/score). The battle the coaches had was the number of people in his ear - that he needed to do more offensively, to catch the eye of the scouts and thus be drafted higher. Family mainly but also an AAU coach who was constantly chirping in his ear. Jaylen though remarkedly mature for a freshmen unfortunately listened more to the outsiders than his coaching staff. Cuonzo was privately very frustrated as they would show him his mistakes and point out alternative decisions and get what they thought was a buy in, only to have him revert to his forcing the play with out of control dribble drives. Cuonzo certainly had has faults, but the players overall greatly respected him and said they learned the game better and also grew up under his eye - from many areas - including time mgmt, being accountable, hard work, team work and defensive principles. Their big issue with him was simply that the team did not spend enough time focusing on multiple ways to get Raab more involved offensively. That undefeated season at home and a #4 seed was special - having 2 key starters hurt 2 days before the opening tournament game was brutal (and playing against a stud center who later was declared ineligible) aaaah what could have happened!

---

Thanks for an inside view. Very interesting and believable. I do think, however, that you are overstating the excuses for the Cal loss to Hawaii in the NCAA. No question that any team which loses two key players before the tournament would have a big challenge going forward, but the Cal rotation was still loaded with many more ranked and highly ranked recruits than Hawaii's rotation. I don't know if I would call Jankovic a stud center. He was a stud center in the Big West level of competition, for sure, but he went undrafted and has bounced around in the G league and overseas since then, so perhaps not good enough to play at the next level. As to him being declared ineligible, when was that? He played 30 minutes in the game against Maryland after the win over Cal, and then later declared for the NBA Draft, skipping his senior year at Hawaii. So if he was ineligble, then so was jaylen Brown, who declared for the NBA draft, skipping the rest of his college career, as near as I can find out.

Still when Cal played lowly Hawaii, Cal had #3 ranked Jaylen Brown, #5 ranked Ivan Rabb, both 5-stars, along with 4-star Domingo, and 3-star recruits Mathews, Singer, Rooks, and RMB, along with 2-star recruits Okoroh and Chauca. Hawaii, on the other hand, faced Cal with 3-stars Jankovic and Mike Thomas, 2-stars Aaron Valdes and Jovanovic, and four unranked players, Roderick Bobbitt, Quincy Smith, Sheriff Drammeh, and Sai Tummala, Their starting lineup had two 3-stars, one 2-star, and two unranked players. On paper, based on recruit rankings (often risky at best), Cal, even without Wallace and Bird, should have annihilated Hawaii. Rabb had a good game and so did Mathews and Singer, but that game was never really close.

---

"Lowly" 28-5 Hawaii? And we playing with no Bird or Wallace or even Brown after 17 minutes and Sam Singer at PG until he fouled out and Chauca had to play? PG is critical, especially in the NCAA tournament. Wallace had his deficiencies as a PG, but he was far better than the two guys behind him.

Our established starting five played 76 minutes. Our normal reserves played 124 minutes.

No way we lose with Brown, Bird and especially Wallace.

---

I described Hawaii as "lowly" just in comparison to Cal. Hawaii had a good won-loss record but they played a very weak season schedule compared to Cal, playing in the Big West vs the PAC12, playing only one ranked team all season, losing by 3 to Oklahoma in Hawaii, while Cal played 6 ranked teams, winning 3 of those games. Also, for the Cal-Hawaii game, Hawaii had a rotation made up of unranked or lowly ranked recruits compared to Cal's rotation, all of whom were ranked players, and higher ranked players. Hawaii's starting five averaged 1.4 stars in recruit rankings, and they started two players, Bobbitt and Smith who were not ranked at all. Stefan Jankovic, their highest ranked player, was ranked 3-stars. Those two unranked guards took Cal's four higher ranked guards apart seemingly at will.

Cal's starting five included two of the highest ranked recruits in the nation, Jaylen Brown (RSCI #3), and Ivan Rabb (RSCI #5), along with Mathews and Singer, both 3-star recruits, and Okoroh, a 2-star recruit, an average of 3.6 stars. Hawaii's average starting five recruit ranking of 1.4 stars is lowly, compared to Cal's 3.6 stars. Cal's rotation averaged 3.3 stars, and every player was ranked 2-stars and above, compared to Hawaii's rotation, which averaged 1.1 stars and included 4 unranked recruits. Hawaii was a good team for their league and their state, but did not have the quality recruits that Cal had, even without Wallace and Bird.

I agree that Cal should win that game with Wallace and Bird, but I don't think any or many expected the upset that occurred. As to having to play Chauca and Brown at PG, according to the play-by-play on Calbears.com, Singer was never really in foul trouble. He got his 4th foul with 2 minutes left in the game and Cal down 11, and fouled out with one minute to go, when the game was lost and Chauca came in. Chauca played decently, and in fact he appeared 4 times in the first half for a total of 7 minutes, and during the time he was in the game, Hawaii gained only one point on Cal. Chauca did not play in the 2nd half until Singer fouled out with less than a minute to go. Brown played point guard two times in the first half for a total of less than 2 minutes, and during that time, Hawaii was able to gain only 1 point on Cal. Cal opened a lead at the start of the game, but Hawaii caught up and steadily built the lead to the end, and most of that (9 points gained in 30 minutes) was while Singer was the point guard. Sam scored 12 points, and had no assists, and Cal was clearly out of sync on offense. Jaylen Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, and maybe of his entire life, as he scored 4 points, had no assists, but committed 7 turnovers, and then fouled out missing most of the 2nd half. The game was lost in the 2nd half, and Chauca did not play until the final minute when the game was lost, and Brown did not play PG in the 2nd half at all. So even if you have highly rated players, it is a challenge when you lose two starters, and one right before tipoff. A tragic loss for Cal.

As Bill Walton would say " Please!"