The Sunshine pumper thread/Realistic expectations for Football

5,857 Views | 49 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by 72CalBear
82gradDLSdad
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Oski87 said:

There is an easy solution - pay the money to get the best coaches. Our facilities are fine. We need an additional 5 - 10 million per year investment.

That simple thing - paying your coordinators a million dollars and your line coach 500K - is really all you need. Run through them until you get the best or the one that works for you. Once the word gets out that you are serious...then it all works.

What is so silly is that the University is so concerned about appearance of athletics that it does not understand that small amount of additional investment will more than pay for itself in additional alumni support.

But at the end of the day - the University is doing fine. It just closed a 4 billion dollar endowment push and is more than halfway to the next 6 billion dollar endowment push. More kids have applied to Cal than ever, and the Forbes rating will pay dividends as well. We have an old football tradition, and it is part of the fabric of the University - but most of the current faculty has the idea that our tradition is losing. That is a bigger problem than the money to pay the best coaches.


Money is necessary, so is an AD that knows what he/she is doing. I have no faith in Knowlton hiring a good football coach. How is he qualified to do this? How is he qualified to pick a team of consultants to do this? He's not.
Strykur
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We're 4 games in but:

Nevada is not a very good team, should have won
TCU is not very good either, should have won
Washington is also not too good, should have won

You don't have to be a sunshine pumper to see that we should be 4-0, this is not due to expectations, this is just a straightforward observation, for us to be 1-3 while not too surprising is a bit inexplicable and Wilcox is running out of time to turn this around. He can, but will he.
wifeisafurd
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There is a similar thread on the Insider board that has gone a remarkably different direction.

One hypothetical in this thread is we need to throw money at the football program. If it was simply that easy. For all the criticism leveled in this board at Knowlton, one is not his ability to fundraise and get money to the football program. There have been several large recent donations, another on the way, a substantial increase in the restricted football fund, the football field has new naming rights for over $17 million, and a decision that a good portion of the football revenue formally used to pay debt service is no longer required for that purpose. Sure there are teams in the SEC throwing around bigger coin, but Cal is playing programs in the Pac 12, and the Nevadas and the TCUs of the world, and if it purely a dollars game, it is not reflected in the team's record so far. Cal may evolving from doing more with less, to doing less with more if the season doesn't turn around for the Travers Family Director of Football and company.

Another is that somehow privates like Furd and SC lean on the faculty better than publics to pass on dumb players. I'm not sure how to even begin to address this notion when you talk about a school like Furd, where the average undergrad GPA is above 3.7, you are not allowed to get a D in a course, there is no academic attrition, and candidly, with close to 1 out of 7 undergrads being athletes, the school's reputation doesn't seem to be suffering. The least of USC's problems right now would be if student-athletes were getting preferential treatment. In any event, the top teams in the football in both divisions happen to be public schools. SC's program is grossly underperforming and Furd has been pretty mediocre as of late. This seems like whining, rather than a substantive argument.

But the OP makes some interesting points. You need a HOF QB. Maybe not all of that, but Furd's recent glory years came under two NFL QBs, Luck and Hogan. Oregon hit the playoffs with Mariota. Examine who was QB during USC's most recent Rose Bowl visits. Invest those bucks in a great QB coach and recruiter. Sounds a lot like a young Jeff Tedford

Another comment is that being mediocre doesn't cut it, and the better program pulls the plug quickly when the program underperforms. I'm not sure that aquatics really fits the definition of chaining coaches. Let's look at football. Helfrich was a great OC, an all around great guy, and with a great QB got his team to the NCAA championship game. But his last two years at Oregon his teams had some horrible games, and in has fourth and final season went 4-8, and was gone. Several coaches later, maybe Oregon has caught lighting in a bottle with Cristobal. Maybe. SC takes the same approach. They are a total sheet show, but at some point maybe they get it right. Don't hold your breath I'm not sure this strategy really works in Pac football. The top Pac coaches in everyone's polls are Whitt and Shaw, and they have had pretty mediocre results as of late. I don't see them getting fired.

Let's face it, without structural change the Pac is not going to compete win football on a national basis. Simply not sufficient talent being attracted, not to mention fan interest. What works elsewhere may not apply in the Pac conference. The strangeness of Pac football is the top Pac programs over the last 10 years are Oregon and Stanford, which could not be opposite in approach. I'm not sure what it is Cal needs to succeed, other than a NFL QB, but Cal probably should look at what Cal does well and try to exploit that. I think that was Wilcox's approach, but something may have been lost in the execution. We shall see.

dimitrig
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HKBear97! said:

concernedparent said:

socaltownie said:

Radioman2 said:

USC is also a private R1 university not just Stanford
It is a FAR different experience. USC is decidedly "urban" and its undergrad life is decidedly much more social than furd. It really is a place for the well heeled Southern Californians to go enjoy 4 years of partying subsidized by a fairly large international student population paying tip top dollar.
More accurate to say rich American and rich international families are subsidizing generally smart middle class kids to go to USC. Pretty sure Chad Fratstar, son of Joe Newport Developer isn't given a scholarship to attend.


Pains me to say this, but the views expressed here about USC are from the 1980's. They are a top-25 school with very strong academic programs and an amazing alumni network. If my kids were accepted, I'd be very proud. I would throw up on in my mouth with every check I'd sign to pay for it, but proud nonetheless.

Yeah... knowing a lot of USC alums and faculty I think Top 25 is a big stretch.

Top 50, certainly.

pingpong2
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SC has figured out how to game the system to improve their school rankings. For instance, they waive application fees and highly encourage inner city LA kids to apply (I believe there's also a streamlined application process). Why? Because that will lower their overall acceptance rate by increasing the total number of applicant, which will in turn improve their ranking. Also, they accept a ton of legacy students who have no business getting in, but they bring them in as spring admits to hide those lower test scores; USWNR only looks at the incoming fall freshman class. Gotta admit, it's smart on them to have figured out ways to prop up their rank. And with the way the UCs are going trying to improve racial diversity, I wouldn't be surprised if USC sneaks in and soak up the high-scoring students that Cal and UCLA are going to squeeze out. With the UCs not even looking at SAT scores anymore, you better bet USC is going to snag as many 1600s/4.0s as possible that Cal/UCLA will inevitably pass on.
calumnus
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pingpong2 said:

SC has figured out how to game the system to improve their school rankings. For instance, they waive application fees and highly encourage inner city LA kids to apply (I believe there's also a streamlined application process). Why? Because that will lower their overall acceptance rate by increasing the total number of applicant, which will in turn improve their ranking. Also, they accept a ton of legacy students who have no business getting in, but they bring them in as spring admits to hide those lower test scores; USWNR only looks at the incoming fall freshman class. Gotta admit, it's smart on them to have figured out ways to prop up their rank. And with the way the UCs are going trying to improve racial diversity, I wouldn't be surprised if USC sneaks in and soak up the high-scoring students that Cal and UCLA are going to squeeze out. With the UCs not even looking at SAT scores anymore, you better bet USC is going to snag as many 1600s/4.0s as possible that Cal/UCLA will inevitably pass on.


USC gamed (and still games) the USN&WR rankings. However, it has actually worked. It is a case of "fake it until you make it." They tricked smart kids into thinking USC was a good school and so they went there. Good professors were lured there by good pay and increasingly good students to teach and of course, the improving rankings. Plus L.A. So by pretending to be a good school, and backing it up with spending, they became a good school. Plus, in the 60s when Pepperdine left downtown LA for Malibu, USC could have moved to the OC and the land that became UC Irvine, but didn't. That was great for LA.

As a private school, USC has affirmative action, whereas the UCs are prevented by law. So your comments there are unfounded.

All of the above is actually a great thing for the City of Los Angeles and the state of California. The UCs have not kept up with the population growth. Leland Stanford founded his school intended as a private UC, "for the children of California" with no tuition, but David Starr Jordan killed that dream and made it a bastion of elitism instead. Not much bigger now than it was over 100 years ago.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd never go to USC and I'm glad my kids didn't, but they are not what they were, even though they are still not what they pretend they are.
71Bear
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Strykur said:

We're 4 games in but:

Nevada is not a very good team, should have won
TCU is not very good either, should have won
Washington is also not too good, should have won

You don't have to be a sunshine pumper to see that we should be 4-0, this is not due to expectations, this is just a straightforward observation, for us to be 1-3 while not too surprising is a bit inexplicable and Wilcox is running out of time to turn this around. He can, but will he.
Cal is not a very good team. They should have lost to all three teams that you mentioned. Oh wait, they did. I guess that takes care of that….

To date, 1-3 sounds about right for this year's edition.
HearstMining
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Jeff82 said:

I will repeat here a point I made on another thread about assistant coaches, which is if we're going to put additional money into the football program, maybe the place to put it is academic support, to give players more help dealing with what we perceive to be the anti-athletics, sink-or-swim attitude of the faculty. That might persuade more 4*+ players to come here, because they have a better chance to be successful in the classroom and on the field.
I like this idea! Today, Stanfurd can pitch the fact that, if the recruit makes an effort in the classroom, the entire university will support them in getting a degree. Stanfurd let Andrew Luck invent his own major. They supposedly got Bryce Love into a stem cell research project as an undergrad. True or not, Cal still has a reputation for using the weed-out approach towards undergrads. If you are a recruit who is also academically motivated (or the parent of one), which pitch sounds more appealing? This is Stanfurd's structural advantage today, but it can be closed.
Bobodeluxe
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pingpong2 said:

SC has figured out how to game the system to improve their school rankings. For instance, they waive application fees and highly encourage inner city LA kids to apply (I believe there's also a streamlined application process). Why? Because that will lower their overall acceptance rate by increasing the total number of applicant, which will in turn improve their ranking. Also, they accept a ton of legacy students who have no business getting in, but they bring them in as spring admits to hide those lower test scores; USWNR only looks at the incoming fall freshman class. Gotta admit, it's smart on them to have figured out ways to prop up their rank. And with the way the UCs are going trying to improve racial diversity, I wouldn't be surprised if USC sneaks in and soak up the high-scoring students that Cal and UCLA are going to squeeze out. With the UCs not even looking at SAT scores anymore, you better bet USC is going to snag as many 1600s/4.0s as possible that Cal/UCLA will inevitably pass on.
Agreed. We must accept only "racily diversity " types who can ball.
dimitrig
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calumnus said:

pingpong2 said:

SC has figured out how to game the system to improve their school rankings. For instance, they waive application fees and highly encourage inner city LA kids to apply (I believe there's also a streamlined application process). Why? Because that will lower their overall acceptance rate by increasing the total number of applicant, which will in turn improve their ranking. Also, they accept a ton of legacy students who have no business getting in, but they bring them in as spring admits to hide those lower test scores; USWNR only looks at the incoming fall freshman class. Gotta admit, it's smart on them to have figured out ways to prop up their rank. And with the way the UCs are going trying to improve racial diversity, I wouldn't be surprised if USC sneaks in and soak up the high-scoring students that Cal and UCLA are going to squeeze out. With the UCs not even looking at SAT scores anymore, you better bet USC is going to snag as many 1600s/4.0s as possible that Cal/UCLA will inevitably pass on.


USC gamed (and still games) the USN&WR rankings. However, it has actually worked. It is a case of "fake it until you make it." They tricked smart kids into thinking USC was a good school and so they went there. Good professors were lured there by good pay and increasingly good students to teach and of course, the improving rankings. Plus L.A. So by pretending to be a good school, and backing it up with spending, they became a good school. Plus, in the 60s when Pepperdine left downtown LA for Malibu, USC could have moved to the OC and the land that became UC Irvine, but didn't. That was great for LA.

As a private school, USC has affirmative action, whereas the UCs are prevented by law. So your comments there are unfounded.

All of the above is actually a great thing for the City of Los Angeles and the state of California. The UCs have not kept up with the population growth. Leland Stanford founded his school intended as a private UC, "for the children of California" with no tuition, but David Starr Jordan killed that dream and made it a bastion of elitism instead. Not much bigger now than it was over 100 years ago.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd never go to USC and I'm glad my kids didn't, but they are not what they were, even though they are still not what they pretend they are.

I know two international students who obtained their Ph.D's at USC. They attended based on their desire to come to the US but also USC's international reputation. They told me that in their countries (Sweden, Korea) USC was considered a peer of UCLA.

After completing their programs at USC they both told me the academics were weaker than they expected and they did not have a lot of top quality research opportunities. A lot of the professors were adjuncts and not really the top researchers in their field. It does vary by department, of course. Some USC departments are better than others. Both of these people confided in me that if they had to do it again knowing what they know now they would have chosen a different (better) school like Georgia Tech, Purdue, Texas, Colorado, or, yes, UCLA.

These were engineering majors. USC's graduate engineering program is ranked #12 (tied with Texas and behind #4 Purdue and #8 Georgia Tech) in the USNWR rankings.

UCLA is #16 and Colorado is #26 according to the same rankings.






79 Bear
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Haven't read all of the posts on this thread. Just here to say, I'm a sunshine pumper and proud of it! Go Bears!
Strykur
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71Bear said:

Strykur said:

We're 4 games in but:

Nevada is not a very good team, should have won
TCU is not very good either, should have won
Washington is also not too good, should have won

You don't have to be a sunshine pumper to see that we should be 4-0, this is not due to expectations, this is just a straightforward observation, for us to be 1-3 while not too surprising is a bit inexplicable and Wilcox is running out of time to turn this around. He can, but will he.
Cal is not a very good team. They should have lost to all three teams that you mentioned. Oh wait, they did. I guess that takes care of that….

To date, 1-3 sounds about right for this year's edition.
I was not sunshine pumping per se, and on the flipside you are not Debbie Downer either.
71Bear
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Strykur said:

71Bear said:

Strykur said:

We're 4 games in but:

Nevada is not a very good team, should have won
TCU is not very good either, should have won
Washington is also not too good, should have won

You don't have to be a sunshine pumper to see that we should be 4-0, this is not due to expectations, this is just a straightforward observation, for us to be 1-3 while not too surprising is a bit inexplicable and Wilcox is running out of time to turn this around. He can, but will he.
Cal is not a very good team. They should have lost to all three teams that you mentioned. Oh wait, they did. I guess that takes care of that….

To date, 1-3 sounds about right for this year's edition.
I was not sunshine pumping per se, and on the flipside you are not Debbie Downer either.
I try to be realistic which is difficult when posting at a fan website. If posters express anything less than complete, blind allegiance, they are characterized as fair weather fans, etc.

The fact of the matter is that Cal simply is not very good this year. The defensive play has been hampered by a lack of talent on the DL (thus a weak pass rush) and the defensive backfield is a mess, partially because of poor scheme (which is a coaching issue) and partially due to lack of talent. The offensive play is spotty, at best. Lack of a big play guy at WR has been an issue for quite sometime and this year is no exception. The rushing attack is problematic because of the lack of an RB with above average speed. Coaching is also an issue, principally because the OC is using a scheme that went out of style at the college level a decade or more ago.

Overall, this program will not get beyond mediocre until the recruiting improves. There was some hope with the early commitments from Ott and Martin. However, that is no longer going to happen. Therefore, the forecast is more of the same - a so-so program with fans who think a Rose Bowl is right around the corner and fans who can see the flaws and voice those concerns only to be labeled negative nancies.

No big deal. I still like watching the games; however, winning or losing is not nearly as important as it used to be. Now, the game ends and I just change the channel and watch another game.
Radioman2
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I guess the sunshine pumper thread is appropriate. USC SAT scores say otherwise…also more international students percent wise. I think you're living in the past and by that I mean decades ago. You're making CAL backers look defensive and ignorant.

socaltownie said:

Radioman2 said:

USC is also a private R1 university not just Stanford
It is a FAR different experience. USC is decidedly "urban" and its undergrad life is decidedly much more social than furd. It really is a place for the well heeled Southern Californians to go enjoy 4 years of partying subsidized by a fairly large international student population paying tip top dollar.
pingpong2
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calumnus said:

pingpong2 said:

SC has figured out how to game the system to improve their school rankings. For instance, they waive application fees and highly encourage inner city LA kids to apply (I believe there's also a streamlined application process). Why? Because that will lower their overall acceptance rate by increasing the total number of applicant, which will in turn improve their ranking. Also, they accept a ton of legacy students who have no business getting in, but they bring them in as spring admits to hide those lower test scores; USWNR only looks at the incoming fall freshman class. Gotta admit, it's smart on them to have figured out ways to prop up their rank. And with the way the UCs are going trying to improve racial diversity, I wouldn't be surprised if USC sneaks in and soak up the high-scoring students that Cal and UCLA are going to squeeze out. With the UCs not even looking at SAT scores anymore, you better bet USC is going to snag as many 1600s/4.0s as possible that Cal/UCLA will inevitably pass on.

As a private school, USC has affirmative action, whereas the UCs are prevented by law. So your comments there are unfounded.

As a private school, USC has the ability to practice affirmative action if they choose to. Whether or not they do is a separate matter.

While the UCs are prevented by Prop 209 from directly giving preferrential treatment based on race, it does not prevent them from changing the application process to diminish (or eliminate altogether) criteria that certain ethnicities tend to overindex on. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that eliminating SATs and ACTs from the application process (flat out eliminating, not just making it optional mind you) will prevent certain ethnicities from having something extra to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd.

According to Cal's own admission data for this year, there were 12% fewer East Asian admits compared to 2019, while there were 25% more Hispanic admits and 32% more African American admits in that same time period. But I'm sure that shift had nothing to do with the changes that were made to the admissions process.
72CalBear
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82gradDLSdad said:

socaliganbear said:

Have USC, UW, or Oregon athletics actually compromised their respective universities on the road to winning? It seems like all 3 have leveraged winning to an overall increase in prominence and funding for the university.


Exactly. How does the academic standing of 82 football players impact the academic quality of a university with 41,000+ students? We suck at football because the people at the top suck at making football hiring decisions and few huge donors care. It's that simple and it doesn't have much to do with us wanting to retain our academic standing more than other schools. I don't want to go watch Cal football in order to eat hot dogs or think how great it is that those footballers in blue are sure great students. I don't begrudge anyone for going for whatever reason but Jeff's reasons don't do it for me. My dad is dead and my kids and wife don't want to go with me.
We are driven to trying to find new coaches when in fact the institution doesn't care about winning. Relying on nostalgia and the good ole days of Cal football (what? the 50s?) is tiring. How many more years do we have to head up all our posts after a loss with "Fire ___________? Tired of living off The Play. The university can retain its status and still field a solid performing, winning team. I don't care about gold outs, the student section, the PA system, and what the team uniform happens to be. Some of us want to simply win. After today vs WSU it's all too clear how this focus has left us.
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