Since age 4, 1962 Alumni Band Day game.
And Yes.... about half of all the games since then....
Which might explain why online Football History only goes back to 1999.

The better question is.... What single movie scene describes the majority of football seasons since becoming a Bear fan?

I'll start.....
Ned Beatty squeal scene in Deliverance

Cheers!
Go Bears!!
Cal Band Great!!!

RichyBear said:

---

I changed my mind. Holmoe was a much better coach then Levy. Holmoe beat USC not once, not twice, but 3 times. More than any Cal Coach in the last 70 years. Mike White is next with 2 wins and a tie against USC.
The thing that turned many Cal fans (including me) against Levy was his third down punts. Not quick kicks, but punts on third down. Especially when Cal was inside it's 30 yard line (over 70 yards from a TD). Once when sked why he did this, Levy replied 'Even if we make a first down, we still have 70 yards to go'.

---

I'm sorry, but I find this story, which has cropped up on this page occasionally over the years, simply impossible to believe. It defies any logic that a coach would, repeatedly, choose to punt on third down. I can imagine it happening once or twice -- perhaps by accident -- but not intentionally and repeatedly. This must be an urban legend.

We're all pretty smart here, with a few notable exceptions. Can someone please explain why a coach would choose to punt on third down as part of his routine strategy? Doing so would be illogical and naturally would get a coach fired under normal circumstances.

Bears2thDoc said:

---

The better question is.... What single movie scene describes the majority of football seasons since becoming a Bear fan?

---

That depends. Has the story of Sisyphus ever been made into a movie?

My family has a history at Cal dating back to 1912. My first game was 1962 and the times I've watched Cal look and play really horribly let's see

Or...there's the scene in Godfather in which Sonny beats the crap out of Carlo. (In case it's not clear, we Cal fans are Carlo.)

HighlandDutch said:

---

Or...there's the scene in Godfather in which Sonny beats the crap out of Carlo. (In case it's not clear, we Cal fans are Carlo.)

---

Yeah....that works too

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

RichyBear said:

---

I changed my mind. Holmoe was a much better coach then Levy. Holmoe beat USC not once, not twice, but 3 times. More than any Cal Coach in the last 70 years. Mike White is next with 2 wins and a tie against USC.
The thing that turned many Cal fans (including me) against Levy was his third down punts. Not quick kicks, but punts on third down. Especially when Cal was inside it's 30 yard line (over 70 yards from a TD). Once when sked why he did this, Levy replied 'Even if we make a first down, we still have 70 yards to go'.

---

I'm sorry, but I find this story, which has cropped up on this page occasionally over the years, simply impossible to believe. It defies any logic that a coach would, repeatedly, choose to punt on third down. I can imagine it happening once or twice -- perhaps by accident -- but not intentionally and repeatedly. This must be an urban legend.

We're all pretty smart here, with a few notable exceptions. Can someone please explain why a coach would choose to punt on third down as part of his routine strategy? Doing so would be illogical and naturally would get a coach fired under normal circumstances.

---

Here's a 1961 Daily Nebraskan newspaper article where Marv Levy explained he believed in that strategy. Note the article was complaining about Nebraska using that approach and found out that Cal was doing the same.

Daily Nebraskan Article of October 18, 1961

HearstMining said:

---

Northside91 said:

---

Bad is bad. Lots of time wasting on this board around discussing whether or not this regime is "Holmoesque." Who gives a rat's? A D is a D, and a D-minus is a D-minus. Both fail in my book.

---

Hey, I got a D in Physics 4D and wasn't happy, but I was relieved I didn't have to take it again. Meanwhile, the Bears have to play 7 more games.

We've dumped on Garbers (justifiably in my opinion) but what about the offensive line? Cal's right tackle was repeatedly embarrassed yesterday and this has been going on all season. When the whole OL is bad, which they certainly are, that points to coaching. Our current and previous OL coaches appear to have been guys on the verge of retirement. Is that a problem? Can these guys attract, develop, and motivate today's players?

As for the OP's original questions:
1. I've been going to games since the early 1960s. So, that's through Levy, Willsey, White, Theder, Kapp, Snyder, Gilby, Mooch, Holmoe, Tedford, Dykes, and Wilcox.

2. Holmoe's last years were the worst. By the end, he'd lost control of his staff as well as the players. Wilcox is not at that point yet.

---

the Physics 4 series? Heck, a D was probably average. That series kicked my butt - but convinced me to become a physics/astronomy major (things that don't kill you outright ...). Still have my Optics Kit.

then to be relevant ..... I started going 50 years ago, and DIDN'T go to Wazzu because .... well, had a bad feeling. Glad I didn't, and it's very rare that I miss a game nowadays. Watched it on the tube, though, and it was pretty bad. I've seen some, probably, just as bad. A whuppin' at $C. Tedford's last game at Oregon State.

Whatever's going on, either fix it or get better coaches. Top to bottom.

In 1970, the Physics 4 series, a,b,c,d,e, were graded on a strict curve. 10% A, 20% B, 40% C, 20% D, 10% F.

30% were graded out each quarter. 17% survival rate, theoretically, if no one quit. Actual final success was less than 10%.

Cal Physics didn't play nice.

Since it was just three years ago, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 2018 loss to UCLA. That was a bad UCLA team and they unexpectedly stomped Cal 37-7.

SanseiBear said:

---

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

RichyBear said:

---

I changed my mind. Holmoe was a much better coach then Levy. Holmoe beat USC not once, not twice, but 3 times. More than any Cal Coach in the last 70 years. Mike White is next with 2 wins and a tie against USC.
The thing that turned many Cal fans (including me) against Levy was his third down punts. Not quick kicks, but punts on third down. Especially when Cal was inside it's 30 yard line (over 70 yards from a TD). Once when sked why he did this, Levy replied 'Even if we make a first down, we still have 70 yards to go'.

---

I'm sorry, but I find this story, which has cropped up on this page occasionally over the years, simply impossible to believe. It defies any logic that a coach would, repeatedly, choose to punt on third down. I can imagine it happening once or twice -- perhaps by accident -- but not intentionally and repeatedly. This must be an urban legend.

We're all pretty smart here, with a few notable exceptions. Can someone please explain why a coach would choose to punt on third down as part of his routine strategy? Doing so would be illogical and naturally would get a coach fired under normal circumstances.

---

Here's a 1961 Daily Nebraskan newspaper article where Marv Levy explained he believed in that strategy. Note the article was complaining about Nebraska using that approach and found out that Cal was doing the same.

Daily Nebraskan Article of October 18, 1961

---

Nebraska fans who moaned last year when Nebraska could do nothing but punt on third downs will be surprised to see the same situation has arisen at California. Bob Booth, assistant sports ed of the Daily Californian, explains Coach Marv Levy's strategy thusly; "It is, and will be for a number of games to come,
Levy's strategy to punt on third, or even second or first down; whenever he feels that the combination of the
score, the down and the yardage to go for a first down, position on the field, the weather, and time left in the
game warrant such action." Coach Levy states, "Coaches have been fired for just this very same thing and the fans don't like it, but until I feel that this is not the soundest football strategy, we are going to use it."

Thanks for the link, SanseiBear. Unfortunately, the article doesn't explain WHY a coach would want to punt on third down, or on "even second or first down." And it doesn't give any examples of times when that strategy would make sense.

Again, I call BS on this as an urban legend. Yes, I can convince myself that a team might benefit from rarely punting on third down if the team's offense is completely incompetent and you fear the opposing team's super strong return game. This might be done on rare occasion if one thinks that the ball will roll a long ways when punted on third down if there is no returner to return the surprise punt. But why do that when you can simply punt out of bounds on fourth down, and then you still get an offensive play on third down? I bet this actually happened in real life like once or twice, and how many times it truly happened has been blown way out of proportion over the years. That's just my guess.

There must have been a strategic reason it would make sense to ever punt on third, second, or even first down. Does anyone know? Maybe there was a rules difference that I am not aware of? Because, if there isn't a sound strategic reason, frankly, Marv Levy sounds like a moron (I started following Cal in 1990).

HearstMining said:

---

Since it was just three years ago, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 2018 loss to UCLA. That was a bad UCLA team and they unexpectedly stomped Cal 37-7.

---

That loss was basically Wilcox throwing a game to see if he could make the QB shuffle with McIlwain and Garbers work (it didn't), and after that we basically went with Garbers the rest of the way, but still screwed the pooch at Wazzu. We still looked much worse this past Saturday though.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

RichyBear said:

---

I changed my mind. Holmoe was a much better coach then Levy. Holmoe beat USC not once, not twice, but 3 times. More than any Cal Coach in the last 70 years. Mike White is next with 2 wins and a tie against USC.
The thing that turned many Cal fans (including me) against Levy was his third down punts. Not quick kicks, but punts on third down. Especially when Cal was inside it's 30 yard line (over 70 yards from a TD). Once when sked why he did this, Levy replied 'Even if we make a first down, we still have 70 yards to go'.

---

I'm sorry, but I find this story, which has cropped up on this page occasionally over the years, simply impossible to believe. It defies any logic that a coach would, repeatedly, choose to punt on third down. I can imagine it happening once or twice -- perhaps by accident -- but not intentionally and repeatedly. This must be an urban legend.

We're all pretty smart here, with a few notable exceptions. Can someone please explain why a coach would choose to punt on third down as part of his routine strategy? Doing so would be illogical and naturally would get a coach fired under normal circumstances.

---

I think it was pretty common in the early 20th century, particularly in bad weather or when facing poor field position, to punt before 4th down. I even recall a story of Cotton Warburton, USC star of the early '30s, fielding a punt deep in his own territory and, seeing the cover team bearing down, punted it back to "flip the field". I've always puzzled how Levy could be so futile at Cal and yet coach some great teams at Buffalo in the NFL. The answer, I infer, is that "stars" matter a lot.

Worst is so hard to determine.
I will write that the "worst" thing I saw in person was a Cal-UW game in mid-1980s at Memorial - it may have been 85?
it was a wet afternoon. somewhere in the second half, UW pooches a kickoff about 30 yards and it falls in bounds and no Bear goes for the ball. UW recovers. Longest on-side kick I'd ever seen.
On the radio wrap up, Starkey couldn't get any Cal player or coach to come on the radio which Starkey said was "understandable" and then added 'this is just not a very good football team, right now."

I can date my fandom from a song on the radio. We were walking up Prospect on the way to the game and the Beatles' song Help! was blaring from one of the houses. That makes it 1965 when I was 11. Jim Hunt was Cal's QB.



RIP to QB & DB Jim Hunt, who led Cal to its only victory against Penn State on a Hail Mary - California Golden Blogs


https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2017/7/14/15951758/california-golden-bears-football-joe-hunt-quarterback-defensive-back

bearister said:

---

I can date my fandom from a song on the radio. We were walking up Prospect on the way to the game and the Beatles' song Help! was blaring from one of the houses. That makes it 1965 when I was 11. Jim Hunt was Cal's QB.



RIP to QB & DB Jim Hunt, who led Cal to its only victory against Penn State on a Hail Mary - California Golden Blogs


https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2017/7/14/15951758/california-golden-bears-football-joe-hunt-quarterback-defensive-back

---

I was there as well, sitting in/near the south end-zone and the TD was at the north end. It may have been one of the games where the Berkeley Jr Traffic Boys got in free which is why I was at that end. If I recall correctly, the play started with 00:01 on the clock. It really was amazing - not as flamboyant as The Play, but if there had been an ESPN back then, it would have been shown for a week.

Why would a coach punt on 3rd down?
One reason Levy gave was that if you get a bad snap from center, or the punter fumbles the snap, or the punt is blocked, and the offense recovers, you can punt again on 4th down.
A better approach might be to give the punting tea more practice team. Also some times the offense makes a first down on 3rd and long, especially against our defense this year.

Then we should kick field goals on third down.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

RichyBear said:

---

I changed my mind. Holmoe was a much better coach then Levy. Holmoe beat USC not once, not twice, but 3 times. More than any Cal Coach in the last 70 years. Mike White is next with 2 wins and a tie against USC.
The thing that turned many Cal fans (including me) against Levy was his third down punts. Not quick kicks, but punts on third down. Especially when Cal was inside it's 30 yard line (over 70 yards from a TD). Once when sked why he did this, Levy replied 'Even if we make a first down, we still have 70 yards to go'.

---

I'm sorry, but I find this story, which has cropped up on this page occasionally over the years, simply impossible to believe. It defies any logic that a coach would, repeatedly, choose to punt on third down. I can imagine it happening once or twice -- perhaps by accident -- but not intentionally and repeatedly. This must be an urban legend.

We're all pretty smart here, with a few notable exceptions. Can someone please explain why a coach would choose to punt on third down as part of his routine strategy? Doing so would be illogical and naturally would get a coach fired under normal circumstances.

---

When your offense is more likely to make a turnover than make a gain.

This was one game. One truly bad game. If we're doing comparisons, we can't say, "Things were worse than this" or "Things weren't as bad" in a particular season, or generally under Holmoe, or Gilby, or Dykes, or the end of Tedford. Those are seasons or eras, this was a game, and we can only compare to individual games.

Forget about anything else, given the caliber of opponent and how interesting the game was to watch, last Saturday was really close to the bottom in terms of individual home games. I'm not going to count any road games, those are sort of a different beast, and there have definitely been some road games that truly sucked. The season opener in 1995 at SD St.? Oh, man.

For me, having seen most home games starting with 1974, the 1998 Big Game is the closest comparison for games at Memorial. That game was like watching paint dry. The Bears lost 10-3 and had almost no hope of moving the ball. We were playing a LSJU team that finished 2-6 in conference, only ahead of 0-8 WSU in the Pac-10 standings. Hell, the Bears went 3-5 in conference, including a win against then-ranked 19 SC. LSJU had allowed at LEAST 28 points in EVERY GAME that season, until the Big Game when the Bears scored THREE. Sure, we MOSTLY stopped the LSJU offense, but even though it was a one score game, there never seemed to be any hope, and the offense was just horrific.

Yeah, there have been worse beat downs than last Saturday at Memorial, but by better teams, and somehow, they held my interest more than last Saturday.

For me, a truly bad game is where I am bored out of my mind by the game, wondering, why the hell am I here watching this, actually being tempted to leave the game early (which I don't do). So for me, it is a close call to the worst game I've been to at Memorial, 1998 Big Game or last Saturday.

I have hope this won't be the worst season of Cal football I've been through. We've seen some bad seasons. In the 21st Century alone, we've had 2001 and 2013 as truly horrific seasons. Those are pretty low bars, but there's time to exceed those low bars -- I'm not sure we can sink lower than those two bars, but there is danger of equaling them. I always find it funny to see people say that it was never worse than Holmoe even though Holmoe went 3-2 against U$C (and 2-3 against fUCLA). Perhaps it was never worse than 2001 (some games in 2001 might compete for the worst at Memorial, and there's an argument for 2013 being the worst season with some of the worst home games), and the final story is not yet written on 2021.

It doesn't really matter whether last Saturday was the worst Memorial game since I started attending games in 1974. As SebastaBear pointed out, perhaps on the Insider Board, if the game is seriously in the conversation for worst Cal game, that is a horrible sign, even if the game won't win the "Worst. Game. Ever." Award. Last Saturday, while only one game, was truly bad. It is 23 years since the 1998 Big Game, and I hope it is at least another 23 years before we see a game as uninspiring as the one last Saturday.

It was a stinker for !sure

RichyBear said:

---

Why would a coach punt on 3rd down?
One reason Levy gave was that if you get a bad snap from center, or the punter fumbles the snap, or the punt is blocked, and the offense recovers, you can punt again on 4th down.
A better approach might be to give the punting tea more practice team. Also some times the offense makes a first down on 3rd and long, especially against our defense this year.

---

Mahalo, RichyBear! Another factor was from 1954 to 1964, it was the era of one platoon football where the starters had to play offense and defense, that pretty much eliminated specialist teams like punting, kicking, and the like. For example, our punter Roger Stull was a tackle.

One-platoon Football

Quote:

---

I was there as well, sitting in/near the south end-zone and the TD was at the north end. It may have been one of the games where the Berkeley Jr Traffic Boys got in free which is why I was at that end. If I recall correctly, the play started with 00:01 on the clock. It really was amazing - not as flamboyant as The Play, but if there had been an ESPN back then, it would have been shown for a week.

---

I was in the North end zone just a couple of rows up right behind where Jerry Bradley caught the ball. I was eleven years old at the time and it was the sports highlight of my life until the '72 Big Game which also finished with a last-play-of-the-game TD.

HighlandDutch said:

---

Bears2thDoc said:

---

The better question is.... What single movie scene describes the majority of football seasons since becoming a Bear fan?

---

That depends. Has the story of Sisyphus ever been made into a movie?

---

If we could get to a point where were were Sisyphean, that would be awesome.

Strykur said:

---

HearstMining said:

---

Since it was just three years ago, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 2018 loss to UCLA. That was a bad UCLA team and they unexpectedly stomped Cal 37-7.

---

That loss was basically Wilcox throwing a game to see if he could make the QB shuffle with McIlwain and Garbers work (it didn't), and after that we basically went with Garbers the rest of the way, but still screwed the pooch at Wazzu. We still looked much worse this past Saturday though.

---

Man, I wish McIlwain could have been better. It looks like he is playing Minor League ball, and graduated. I hope he has a good career.

LunchTime said:

---

Strykur said:

---

HearstMining said:

---

Since it was just three years ago, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 2018 loss to UCLA. That was a bad UCLA team and they unexpectedly stomped Cal 37-7.

---

That loss was basically Wilcox throwing a game to see if he could make the QB shuffle with McIlwain and Garbers work (it didn't), and after that we basically went with Garbers the rest of the way, but still screwed the pooch at Wazzu. We still looked much worse this past Saturday though.

---

Man, I wish McIlwain could have been better. It looks like he is playing Minor League ball, and graduated. I hope he has a good career.

---

Great article comparing two-sport stars Billy Bean and Brandon McIlwain:
https://fifthquarter.net/mlb/2021/02/26/billy-beane-and-brandon-mcilwain-the-story-of-opposite-athletic-tragedies/

McIlwain had a better arm than Garbers and was an elite runner. He had a higher completion percentage. His problem was he was pressing, trying to make things happen, trying to force throws into receivers who were not open resulting in too many interceptions.

Garbers best quality was/is his judiciousness. The throws he doesn't attempt. He knows his limitations. If no one is open ge can take off running and though not as good a runner as McIlwain, he is good, certainly good enough to move the chains even break off a long run. The Garbers planned runs usually fail, because they are obvious.

However, Baldwin's use of the two was different. Originally he tried to make McIlwain a pocket passer, but then the interceptions. Then he would sub in McIkwain for planned QB keepers. It was obvious to everyone, including the defense.

If McIlwain had more freedom to move outside the pocket with a run pass option , he would have been a lot more effective., as Garbers is under the same conditions.

Then Baldwin subbed in McIlwain as a slot receiver and on the first play, to no one's surprise, Garbers threw him a screen and a LB flew in unblocked and blew him up just as the ball reached him. Luckily he didn't fumble, but he probably quit football right then.

kal kommie said:

---

Golden One said:

---

kal kommie said:

---

Golden One said:

---

SoFlaBear said:

---

38 years. I saw some bad play in the Kapp era; early Bruce Snyder; Keith Gilbertson took us in the wrong direction, and Sonny Dykes was bad. It was never - ever worse than Tom Holmoe. Today approached Holmoe-level futility.

---

60 years for me, and I can't remember ever seeing a game that was worse than today. The team lacked passion the whole game; frankly, it seems that they have just quit. This team and its coaching staff are a complete embarrassment to a great university. Wilcox has to go, and the sooner the better.

---

This reminds me of when Willie Brown called Elvis Grbac an "embarrassment to humankind". The team didn't cheat, didn't forfeit, didn't try to intentionally injure the opposing players. They're not an embarrassment to the university. That's ridiculous and embarrassing for you to say.

And I've seen way worse games than today. I've seen them lose 61-0. We've all seen much worse. Get a grip.

---

You get a grip. I repeat: This team is a complete embarrassment to the University of California. They either just quit on the coach, or they are historically bad. We scored only 6 damn points against a VERY bad WSU team. That's worse in my book than losing 61-0 to a highly ranked team.

You should stop making excuses for Wilcox. He is a crappy head coach, and he needs to go. If you are a true Cal fan and are not embarrassed by the play of this team, there is no hope for you.

---

I didn't make any excuses for Wilcox. You're hallucinating now. Get a f***ing grip.

---

Now, now girls you're both pretty....

SanseiBear said:

---

RichyBear said:

---

Why would a coach punt on 3rd down?
One reason Levy gave was that if you get a bad snap from center, or the punter fumbles the snap, or the punt is blocked, and the offense recovers, you can punt again on 4th down.
A better approach might be to give the punting tea more practice team. Also some times the offense makes a first down on 3rd and long, especially against our defense this year.

---

Mahalo, RichyBear! Another factor was from 1954 to 1964, it was the era of one platoon football where the starters had to play offense and defense, that pretty much eliminated specialist teams like punting, kicking, and the like. For example, our punter Roger Stull was a tackle.

One-platoon Football

---

Guard Don Gilkey also punted in that era.

First game: 1977

Worst game: 1978 at home vs UCLA. 45-0 on national TV when that meant something. You know the situation is dire when the students are rooting for an earthquake.

LunchTime said:

---

Strykur said:

---

HearstMining said:

---

Since it was just three years ago, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 2018 loss to UCLA. That was a bad UCLA team and they unexpectedly stomped Cal 37-7.

---

That loss was basically Wilcox throwing a game to see if he could make the QB shuffle with McIlwain and Garbers work (it didn't), and after that we basically went with Garbers the rest of the way, but still screwed the pooch at Wazzu. We still looked much worse this past Saturday though.

---

Man, I wish McIlwain could have been better. It looks like he is playing Minor League ball, and graduated. I hope he has a good career.

---

I like organic bacon. BLTs at Lunchtime......mmmmmm!

oskidunker said:

---

Then we should kick field goals on third down.

---

Think outside the box. All 4 downs throw no pass under 25 yards ( until there is less than 25 yards to the end zone). The PI and INTs stats would be record breaking.

Or Garbers runs all 4 downs until he drops from exhaustion or injury.

59bear said:

---

I saw my first game at Memorial in 1949, the win over USC featuring Frank Brunk's 102 yard kickoff return but I had listened to Cal games on radio from about 1946. I was at Cal at the end of the Waldorf era and it was funereal. I was at Cal when the '58 team stumbled (it was truly a very average team) into the Rose Bowl. Compared to the present, I'd say only Willsey, Mike White, Snyder and Tedford were significantly better and Levy, Holmoe and Dykes much worse. I confess to being a Wilcox believer when he was hired but I also thought Gilby or Mariucci would be better than they were and Mooch might have been had he stayed. I do subscribe to the theory that the greater Cal community...Admin, faculty, student body and alumni don't care much whether or not our major sports teams succeed. Personally, I don't need national titles or the Rose Bowl (like me, it ain't what it once was) but I would like to see a team that could take the field with a reasonable chance to win on any given Saturday. I thought Wilcox was building toward that. This year and last certainly belie that notion but only our expectations put this season in any list of our absolute worst.

---

Just curious, how does Levy, a HOF NFL and CFL coach with an advance degree from Harvard, and with a good staff (including Bill Walsh), have such terrible teams?

wifeisafurd said:

---

59bear said:

---

I saw my first game at Memorial in 1949, the win over USC featuring Frank Brunk's 102 yard kickoff return but I had listened to Cal games on radio from about 1946. I was at Cal at the end of the Waldorf era and it was funereal. I was at Cal when the '58 team stumbled (it was truly a very average team) into the Rose Bowl. Compared to the present, I'd say only Willsey, Mike White, Snyder and Tedford were significantly better and Levy, Holmoe and Dykes much worse. I confess to being a Wilcox believer when he was hired but I also thought Gilby or Mariucci would be better than they were and Mooch might have been had he stayed. I do subscribe to the theory that the greater Cal community...Admin, faculty, student body and alumni don't care much whether or not our major sports teams succeed. Personally, I don't need national titles or the Rose Bowl (like me, it ain't what it once was) but I would like to see a team that could take the field with a reasonable chance to win on any given Saturday. I thought Wilcox was building toward that. This year and last certainly belie that notion but only our expectations put this season in any list of our absolute worst.

---

Just curious, how does Levy, a HOF NFL and CFL coach with an advance degree from Harvard, and with a good staff (including Bill Walsh), have such terrible teams?

---

One of life's enduring mysteries. Some might suggest his experience validates the curse of Strawberry Canyon. Others might think it proves you really do learn more from failure than from success.

Talent.

oskidunker said:

---

Talent.

---

Super Seniors have experience, and are primed for success.