NIL and Portal

5,561 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by cbbass1
Rushinbear
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Seems that NIL and Transfer Portal are transforming the college football landscape into an ersatz minor league system. Or, do you see an eventual regression to the old way?

The more I think about it, the more I think that we'll regress, sooner or later. HS kids want choices and a minor league set up would restrict that. There are many more really good fb players to find immediate futures for than there are baseball players.
southseasbear
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I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.
Fire Knowlton!
Fire Fox!
Put Wilcox in a hot seat!
Bobodeluxe
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The West, as a whole, should take the lead and initiate a relegation system for all D1 teams. Those who wish to, may compete for the P5(ha-ha) level, and everyone else can play at any level they feel comfortable with.

May the best laundry win!
PaulCali
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southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.
But if we transition to a lower-payout conference, such as the MWC, wouldn't this significantly reduce the support for non-major sports, most of which are heavily subsidized by the higher Pac-12 payout? And I'm not even sure we could be that more competitive in the major sports in the MWC.

I think it's put up or shut time with respect to our continuing membership in the Pac-12. We need to become competitive in the Pac-12 or rethink our participation in intercollegiate athletics generally.
Shoreline
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Getting rid of the 1-year sit rule was the worst thing to happen to college football and has made the landscape of college football turn into a game of musical chairs.
Rushinbear
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PaulCali said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.
But if we transition to a lower-payout conference, such as the MWC, wouldn't this significantly reduce the support for non-major sports, most of which are heavily subsidized by the higher Pac-12 payout? And I'm not even sure we could be that more competitive in the major sports in the MWC.

I think it's put up or shut time with respect to our continuing membership in the Pac-12. We need to become competitive in the Pac-12 or rethink our participation in intercollegiate athletics generally.
Overall, the "non-major sports" are an albatross around Cal's neck. We have tried that model for decades with minimal financial and major sport results. An excuse always seems to be, "...but, but, but - the Olympic sports."

My bet is that the athletes in the Olympic sports have excellent academics and solid financials. Why couldn't they be made club sports with private financing?.
71Bear
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Shoreline said:

Getting rid of the 1-year sit rule was the worst thing to happen to college football and has made the landscape of college football turn into a game of musical chairs.
To the contrary, it is the best thing to happen to college football in recent memory.

It puts the athletes on equal footing with coaches. Why should coaches be free agents while the players are not given the same opportunity.

Heck, I would take a step further and allow players to transfer as many times as they wish without a sit-out penalty for any of the transfers they initiate.

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..

71Bear
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Rushinbear said:

Seems that NIL and Transfer Portal are transforming the college football landscape into an ersatz minor league system. Or, do you see an eventual regression to the old way?

The more I think about it, the more I think that we'll regress, sooner or later. HS kids want choices and a minor league set up would restrict that. There are many more really good fb players to find immediate futures for than there are baseball players.
College football is rapidly heading towards a brave new world. What we have seen is just the opening act of a multi-act play. Once the NCAA constitution revision is completed (sometime next year), we will have a much better idea of what Act II will look like….
calumnus
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southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

The first group is easy. It is kids (and their parents) who value education, who know having a Cal degree is a great plan B. It is kids all across the country who are attracted to Berkeley, either academically, our reputation for social justice or just our great location.

The elite players are similar. The Jaylen Browns, Demitris Robertsons who who are attracted to the school and Berkeley. The key is finding those kids through research, which is easy now since they are all on social media. Search engines do the work for a relatively small fee.

The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
Shoreline
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71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
HoopDreams
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Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
4-years tuition, room & board, stipend, top athletic training, brand building = a lot more than $100K
71Bear
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Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
71Bear
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HoopDreams said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
4-years tuition, room & board, stipend, top athletic training, brand building = a lot more than $100K

That assumes a kid is paying full boat. Given the availability of grants/forgivable loans, etc., who does that in this day and age.
CALiforniALUM
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We all talk a lot about the 40-year decision and what a Cal education can do for a student who comes to this school. The problem is that current college athletics no longer cares about the student or the education. It is not valued by anybody that matters (e.g., 5-Star Recruits, NFL recruiters, NIL benefactors). If you are one of the few athletes who have the physical chops to realize the dream to play professionally, you probably shouldn't be making your choice on where to attend college based on the 40-year educational decision perspective. Let's face it, those kinds of athletes will make more in their signing bonus or first contract than many graduates will make in their entire life time. Bottom line is our academic angle is not really a differentiating or meaningful factor when it comes to athletics or athletic success. We run of the mill fans/graduates who largely came to Cal on our academics want to believe it to be otherwise, but most of us probably never really had a professional sports career on the line. How many of us fans on this board played for Cal and then went on to make our living in professional athletics?

So where does that leave Cal in the modern day of sports? Just about where Cal is today. We get the high-school athletes that are good enough to get a paid to play (e.g., scholarship and NIL) in college, but who will never really make real money in athletics as a player. Many of our players probably wouldn't have even had a real shot of attending Cal absent the athletic admittance to the university.

Count me as pessimistic that Cal will never be able to compete in the future of collegiate athletics unless we take ourselves out of the athletic program arms race. Our past and current vision of student athletics is no longer valued in the system that is emerging.
Rushinbear
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CALiforniALUM said:

We all talk a lot about the 40-year decision and what a Cal education can do for a student who comes to this school. The problem is that current college athletics no longer cares about the student or the education. It is not valued by anybody that matters (e.g., 5-Star Recruits, NFL recruiters, NIL benefactors). If you are one of the few athletes who have the physical chops to realize the dream to play professionally, you probably shouldn't be making your choice on where to attend college based on the 40-year educational decision perspective. Let's face it, those kinds of athletes will make more in their signing bonus or first contract than many graduates will make in their entire life time. Bottom line is our academic angle is not really a differentiating or meaningful factor when it comes to athletics or athletic success. We run of the mill fans/graduates who largely came to Cal on our academics want to believe it to be otherwise, but most of us probably never really had a professional sports career on the line. How many of us fans on this board played for Cal and then went on to make our living in professional athletics?

So where does that leave Cal in the modern day of sports? Just about where Cal is today. We get the high-school athletes that are good enough to get a paid to play (e.g., scholarship and NIL) in college, but who will never really make real money in athletics as a player. Many of our players probably wouldn't have even had a real shot of attending Cal absent the athletic admittance to the university.

Count me as pessimistic that Cal will never be able to compete in the future of collegiate athletics unless we take ourselves out of the athletic program arms race. Our past and current vision of student athletics is no longer valued in the system that is emerging.
I've always believed that a school that aspires to be #1 ought to aspire to that level on all fronts. If you are the best at one thing, you should try to be the best at all things that you attempt. Hope springs eternal.

It's going to take several years to sort out the new rules and before that the rules will have changed as being unworkable, But, like a huge ocean liner, Cal will be slowwwwww to change course and may wash ashore due to inept steering. I admit losing enthusiasm, but will be back again next year, checking the recruit offers.

The best possibility is a head coach that kids love who is charismatic, competent, enthusiastic, and somehow in love with Cal. We've had a few, but far between. The ones we've had haven't gotten the support .
See ya next year.
59bear
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71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
RedlessWardrobe
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71Bear said:

Rushinbear said:

Seems that NIL and Transfer Portal are transforming the college football landscape into an ersatz minor league system. Or, do you see an eventual regression to the old way?

The more I think about it, the more I think that we'll regress, sooner or later. HS kids want choices and a minor league set up would restrict that. There are many more really good fb players to find immediate futures for than there are baseball players.
College football is rapidly heading towards a brave new world. What we have seen is just the opening act of a multi-act play. Once the NCAA constitution revision is completed (sometime next year), we will have a much better idea of what Act II will look like….
This issue has valid arguments going both way. My only issue is that under 71Bear's philosophy, the game we watch should no longer be called "college" football. If we are going to cut through the issue then it should be cut through completely.
71Bear
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59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
71Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

71Bear said:

Rushinbear said:

Seems that NIL and Transfer Portal are transforming the college football landscape into an ersatz minor league system. Or, do you see an eventual regression to the old way?

The more I think about it, the more I think that we'll regress, sooner or later. HS kids want choices and a minor league set up would restrict that. There are many more really good fb players to find immediate futures for than there are baseball players.
College football is rapidly heading towards a brave new world. What we have seen is just the opening act of a multi-act play. Once the NCAA constitution revision is completed (sometime next year), we will have a much better idea of what Act II will look like….
This issue has valid arguments going both way. My only issue is that under 71Bear's philosophy, the game we watch should no longer be called "college" football. If we are going to cut through the issue then it should be cut through
I believe there will always be "college football" (games played by representatives of a particular institution). The question is which schools will opt into this system and how the players will be remunerated. It would not surprise me to see multiple levels beyond what exists today. And no, I do not envision that either Cal or Stanford would opt into the highest level for a variety of reasons.

cbbass1
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calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

The first group is easy. It is kids (and their parents) who value education, who know having a Cal degree is a great plan B. It is kids all across the country who are attracted to Berkeley, either academically, our reputation for social justice or just our great location.

The elite players are similar. The Jaylen Browns, Demitris Robertsons who who are attracted to the school and Berkeley. The key is finding those kids through research, which is easy now since they are all on social media. Search engines do the work for a relatively small fee.

The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
YES!!!

Not only do we have the top Public University in the nation, top academics, a huuge media market, and excellent alumni connections; we also have a strong history of social leadership and innovation.

IF someone in the Cal community were to develop a platform so that players, coaches, and universities could manage posts to multiple social media platforms, notifications, communications (like recruiting communications, offers, commitments, portal & draft announcements), with adjustable levels of approval, revenue sharing, etc., then we could certainly take a leadership role in NIL. This would also set the stage for a negotiation between recruits & their parents, players, coaches, university administrators, sponsors, and media networks on what the settings should be over NCAAF, or over the entire NCAA. The athletes would need to organize, of course, to make sure that their economic & privacy interests were well represented.

Twitter & Instagram have carried the bulk of the social media traffic for NCAAF and its many related activities, but they're very general tools. It's time for NCAA sports to develop its own communications & NIL management infrastructure. Existing social media networks would certainly be part of the picture initially, but maybe not permanently.

There's simply no other university in the nation who's in a better position to do this than UC Berkeley, with academic excellence in software/tech, business, law, and public policy, and prominent alumni from each of these communities providing leadership.
Rushinbear
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cbbass1 said:

calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

The first group is easy. It is kids (and their parents) who value education, who know having a Cal degree is a great plan B. It is kids all across the country who are attracted to Berkeley, either academically, our reputation for social justice or just our great location.

The elite players are similar. The Jaylen Browns, Demitris Robertsons who who are attracted to the school and Berkeley. The key is finding those kids through research, which is easy now since they are all on social media. Search engines do the work for a relatively small fee.

The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
YES!!!

Not only do we have the top Public University in the nation, top academics, a huuge media market, and excellent alumni connections; we also have a strong history of social leadership and innovation.

IF someone in the Cal community were to develop a platform so that players, coaches, and universities could manage posts to multiple social media platforms, notifications, communications (like recruiting communications, offers, commitments, portal & draft announcements), with adjustable levels of approval, revenue sharing, etc., then we could certainly take a leadership role in NIL. This would also set the stage for a negotiation between recruits & their parents, players, coaches, university administrators, sponsors, and media networks on what the settings should be over NCAAF, or over the entire NCAA. The athletes would need to organize, of course, to make sure that their economic & privacy interests were well represented.

Twitter & Instagram have carried the bulk of the social media traffic for NCAAF and its many related activities, but they're very general tools. It's time for NCAA sports to develop its own communications & NIL management infrastructure. Existing social media networks would certainly be part of the picture initially, but maybe not permanently.

There's simply no other university in the nation who's in a better position to do this than UC Berkeley, with academic excellence in software/tech, business, law, and public policy, and prominent alumni from each of these communities providing leadership.
Wake me when the top 300 recruits care about this. You've never met and talked to any of them, have you. Sweet dreams.
6956bear
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Rushinbear said:

cbbass1 said:

calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

The first group is easy. It is kids (and their parents) who value education, who know having a Cal degree is a great plan B. It is kids all across the country who are attracted to Berkeley, either academically, our reputation for social justice or just our great location.

The elite players are similar. The Jaylen Browns, Demitris Robertsons who who are attracted to the school and Berkeley. The key is finding those kids through research, which is easy now since they are all on social media. Search engines do the work for a relatively small fee.

The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
YES!!!

Not only do we have the top Public University in the nation, top academics, a huuge media market, and excellent alumni connections; we also have a strong history of social leadership and innovation.

IF someone in the Cal community were to develop a platform so that players, coaches, and universities could manage posts to multiple social media platforms, notifications, communications (like recruiting communications, offers, commitments, portal & draft announcements), with adjustable levels of approval, revenue sharing, etc., then we could certainly take a leadership role in NIL. This would also set the stage for a negotiation between recruits & their parents, players, coaches, university administrators, sponsors, and media networks on what the settings should be over NCAAF, or over the entire NCAA. The athletes would need to organize, of course, to make sure that their economic & privacy interests were well represented.

Twitter & Instagram have carried the bulk of the social media traffic for NCAAF and its many related activities, but they're very general tools. It's time for NCAA sports to develop its own communications & NIL management infrastructure. Existing social media networks would certainly be part of the picture initially, but maybe not permanently.

There's simply no other university in the nation who's in a better position to do this than UC Berkeley, with academic excellence in software/tech, business, law, and public policy, and prominent alumni from each of these communities providing leadership.
Wake me when the top 300 recruits care about this. You've never met and talked to any of them, have you. Sweet dreams.
That is right. The very best EXPECT to play in the NFL. They want $$$$ now. Cal is getting the players that buy in to the 40 year plan already. I think Cal could very well be the worst program in the P12 within 2-3 years. They are already among the worst, but I see a consistent bottom feeder if they do not engage in the current NIL market.

The kids not only want $$$ they now expect it. Alabama, Georgia, Ohio St., Texas, Oklahoma etc will provide it. If you do not you will not recruit well enough to matter.

There is free agency in college football. And while I do think the players deserve compensation it will not be handled in a way that ensures some sort of competitive balance. Instead of contributing to athletics generally the boosters will now be finding a way to give directly to players. And the transfer portal while a mechanism for player movement will also be used as a way to remove players that are not expected to play. The numbers of players that end up with no home last season was larger than those that found a new place to play.

The idea is good. The end result is going to be bad for far more programs and players than it benefits.
Big Dog
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calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

........
The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
Sure, we sit in a large TV market in total numbers, but a market that is not that passionate for sports, and in particular, football. (There is a reason why the p12net revenue stinks.) Few top FB players care all that much about academics, and when they do, they have plenty of other great choices with massive academic resources (that Cal does not have): Stanford, Notre Dame, Vandy, Northwestern, Michigan, Duke; even USC is a top ~30 academic school. My point is taht all of the positives that you mention are not unique, and other colleges have them and more. The A- football 3*+ player is not that common and has lotsa choices. Is South Bend a large TV market? Heck no, but it doesn't matter since every ND home game is on national TV, and every road game is on espn.

No way we can regularly be Top 20, as we will never be able to recruit enuf talent to compete regularly. That level is possible with a 'little luck in a given year'.
calumnus
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Big Dog said:

calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

........
The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
Sure, we sit in a large TV market in total numbers, but a market that is not that passionate for sports, and in particular, football. (There is a reason why the p12net revenue stinks.) Few top FB players care all that much about academics, and when they do, they have plenty of other great choices with massive academic resources (that Cal does not have): Stanford, Notre Dame, Vandy, Northwestern, Michigan, Duke; even USC is a top ~30 academic school. My point is taht all of the positives that you mention are not unique, and other colleges have them and more. The A- football 3*+ player is not that common and has lotsa choices. Is South Bend a large TV market? Heck no, but it doesn't matter since every ND home game is on national TV, and every road game is on espn.

No way we can regularly be Top 20, as we will never be able to recruit enuf talent to compete regularly. That level is possible with a 'little luck in a given year'.


Former perennial loser Stanford was doing it consistently just a few years ago and they sit in the same market with similar academic constraints. Before that Tedford was doing it. All that without exploiting the potential market that now exists.

You cannot base your analysis of potential on what is. That is why the profession of marketing exists.

"The Bay Area is just not a pro basketball market" was often said until Kerr and Curry made the Warriors must see TV and a tough ticket.

Cal has tremendous potential at this point in time. We are no worse in the NIL world than we were in the previous world of under the table payments for top talent, and I would argue we could be far better off.

However, having potential and reaching your potential are two different things.
59bear
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71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
Which would require many schools to slide further into the red to operate their athletic departments. Not a good look when the vast majority of competing institutions are publicly funded and continually raising tuition.
Bobodeluxe
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Let the students eat cake. If they can't afford it, go to a JC. No reason to tax those with the means, just to fund the losers in life.
cbbass1
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Bobodeluxe said:

Let the students eat cake. If they can't afford it, go to a JC. No reason to tax those with the means, just to fund the losers in life.
I think you're missing the point of Public Education in general, and Public Universities specifically. The University of California, Berkeley, takes great pride in being the #1 Public University in the nation.

The Morrill Act was signed into law by President Abraham Lincoln back in 1862 to create the Land Grant universities (like the University of California), in order to give FREE university education to ALL qualified Americans, without regard for their families' wealth, or their ability to pay.

Needless to say, the U.S. would not have been a leading industrial, economic, or military power without its long history of excellent Public Education.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/morrill-act-honoring-our-land-grant-history
71Bear
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59bear said:

71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
Which would require many schools to slide further into the red to operate their athletic departments. Not a good look when the vast majority of competing institutions are publicly funded and continually raising tuition.
…or give up the charade of fielding a program.

That would allow schools to focus on their true purpose - providing an education to their student body.

If you can't afford an athletic program that includes remunerating the participants, get out of the business.
Of course, that would cause most schools to give up football, compelling the remaining football-playing schools to either form a small league or drop their programs due to the lack of competition.

Hmmmm…. We might be on to something here. The end of college sports as we know them and a transition to the European-model of youth club sports.
Big Dog
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71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
Which would require many schools to slide further into the red to operate their athletic departments. Not a good look when the vast majority of competing institutions are publicly funded and continually raising tuition.
…or give up the charade of fielding a program.

That would allow schools to focus on their true purpose - providing an education to their student body.

If you can't afford an athletic program that includes remunerating the participants, get out of the business.
Of course, that would cause most schools to give up football, compelling the remaining football-playing schools to either form a small league or drop their programs due to the lack of competition.

Hmmmm…. We might be on to something here. The end of college sports as we know them and a transition to the European-model of youth club sports.
And once they give up the football cash cow, they get rid of the other D1 sports too.
71Bear
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Big Dog said:

71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
Which would require many schools to slide further into the red to operate their athletic departments. Not a good look when the vast majority of competing institutions are publicly funded and continually raising tuition.
…or give up the charade of fielding a program.

That would allow schools to focus on their true purpose - providing an education to their student body.

If you can't afford an athletic program that includes remunerating the participants, get out of the business.
Of course, that would cause most schools to give up football, compelling the remaining football-playing schools to either form a small league or drop their programs due to the lack of competition.

Hmmmm…. We might be on to something here. The end of college sports as we know them and a transition to the European-model of youth club sports.
And once they give up the football cash cow, they get rid of the other D1 sports too.
Yep. Fold those sports under the umbrella of the club sport system as well
okaydo
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Bobodeluxe
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cbbass1 said:

Bobodeluxe said:

Let the students eat cake. If they can't afford it, go to a JC. No reason to tax those with the means, just to fund the losers in life.
I think you're missing the point of Public Education in general, and Public Universities specifically. The University of California, Berkeley, takes great pride in being the #1 Public University in the nation.

The Morrill Act was signed into law by President Abraham Lincoln back in 1862 to create the Land Grant universities (like the University of California), in order to give FREE university education to ALL qualified Americans, without regard for their families' wealth, or their ability to pay.

Needless to say, the U.S. would not have been a leading industrial, economic, or military power without its long history of excellent Public Education.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/morrill-act-honoring-our-land-grant-history
There was a wink there, for our trumpy friends.
cbbass1
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bobodeluxe said:

cbbass1 said:

Bobodeluxe said:

Let the students eat cake. If they can't afford it, go to a JC. No reason to tax those with the means, just to fund the losers in life.
I think you're missing the point of Public Education in general, and Public Universities specifically. The University of California, Berkeley, takes great pride in being the #1 Public University in the nation.

The Morrill Act was signed into law by President Abraham Lincoln back in 1862 to create the Land Grant universities (like the University of California), in order to give FREE university education to ALL qualified Americans, without regard for their families' wealth, or their ability to pay.

Needless to say, the U.S. would not have been a leading industrial, economic, or military power without its long history of excellent Public Education.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/morrill-act-honoring-our-land-grant-history
There was a wink there, for our trumpy friends.
My apologies if I missed the <sarcasm> tag.

Good to re-establish our core principles, anyway...!
59bear
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71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

59bear said:

71Bear said:

Shoreline said:

71Bear said:

A multi-billion dollar industry in which the labor is unpaid. And you want to chain them to a particular worksite whether or not it is right for them? Wow…..




4-years of tuition exceed 100k these days.

OK buddy, let's have it your way and get rid of scholarships and just pay the players. 4-5-star players to the highest bidder. Guess who wins? Not Cal.
Cal ain't gonna win the national championship under the current system so why bother with the charade of thinking it is possible. Instead, create a system that benefits all the players whether they are on a CFP-level team, a middle class team or a team in the dregs.
What system is going to benefit all the players? NIL/Transfer Portal are inherently biased in favor of the stars. There may be the occasional cult favorite (someone like McMorris comes to mind) who will find the social network following to enhance value but what is the value of a 4th string walk-on OL relative to an all-conference QB, RB, WR or LB?
In my lifetime there has always been an elite grouping at the top of any particular college sport but. in football at least, that group, over the last couple of decades, has become concentrated in no more than a dozen or so programs. I suspect the new landscape only furthers and solidifies the positions at the top. That may be good for some players but it doesn't do much for competitive balance.
I wasn't referencing NIL. I was speaking of compensating every player on every team.
Which would require many schools to slide further into the red to operate their athletic departments. Not a good look when the vast majority of competing institutions are publicly funded and continually raising tuition.
…or give up the charade of fielding a program.

That would allow schools to focus on their true purpose - providing an education to their student body.

If you can't afford an athletic program that includes remunerating the participants, get out of the business.
Of course, that would cause most schools to give up football, compelling the remaining football-playing schools to either form a small league or drop their programs due to the lack of competition.

Hmmmm…. We might be on to something here. The end of college sports as we know them and a transition to the European-model of youth club sports.
A position I've been gravitating to over the last decade.
cbbass1
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Rushinbear said:

cbbass1 said:

calumnus said:

southseasbear said:

I don't see how we can compete. Perhaps Blueblood is right and we will transition to the MWC.


If we think we can't compete we most likely won't.

I think we are in a great position to compete. There are over 9,000 kids playing college football every year. Clearly the vast majority are not going to the NFL. We need to recruit a solid core of the top level second tier players, players who might be shooting for the NFL but know it is not a sure thing, and some elite players that almost certainly NFL players.

The first group is easy. It is kids (and their parents) who value education, who know having a Cal degree is a great plan B. It is kids all across the country who are attracted to Berkeley, either academically, our reputation for social justice or just our great location.

The elite players are similar. The Jaylen Browns, Demitris Robertsons who who are attracted to the school and Berkeley. The key is finding those kids through research, which is easy now since they are all on social media. Search engines do the work for a relatively small fee.

The other part is NIL to compete for the elite players. Again, we sit in one of the 4 largest media markets in the country. We have a thriving tech industry nearby. We have a wearily alumni base. The Raiders have gone to Vegas, the Niners to the South Bay were they compete with our only local completion. If the program were marketed well, top players, especially local players could be local media stars. When Marshawn Lynch was at Cal, there was a minor rap hit using his name.

We are far better situated with more potential to succeed in the new environment than the majority of schools in the country. No, we won't be elite, but we can be regularly Top 20 with a shot a better with a little luck in any given year. Will we? Well, that is a different question. I think our program lacks visionary leadership and we will likely fall far below our potential over the coming years and by the time the current regime move on it will probably be too late.

However, this new booster group may be the answer. A passive Knowlton could be an asset to an active booster group.
YES!!!

Not only do we have the top Public University in the nation, top academics, a huuge media market, and excellent alumni connections; we also have a strong history of social leadership and innovation.

IF someone in the Cal community were to develop a platform so that players, coaches, and universities could manage posts to multiple social media platforms, notifications, communications (like recruiting communications, offers, commitments, portal & draft announcements), with adjustable levels of approval, revenue sharing, etc., then we could certainly take a leadership role in NIL. This would also set the stage for a negotiation between recruits & their parents, players, coaches, university administrators, sponsors, and media networks on what the settings should be over NCAAF, or over the entire NCAA. The athletes would need to organize, of course, to make sure that their economic & privacy interests were well represented.

Twitter & Instagram have carried the bulk of the social media traffic for NCAAF and its many related activities, but they're very general tools. It's time for NCAA sports to develop its own communications & NIL management infrastructure. Existing social media networks would certainly be part of the picture initially, but maybe not permanently.

There's simply no other university in the nation who's in a better position to do this than UC Berkeley, with academic excellence in software/tech, business, law, and public policy, and prominent alumni from each of these communities providing leadership.
Wake me when the top 300 recruits care about this. You've never met and talked to any of them, have you. Sweet dreams.
The top 300 football recruits wouldn't be the 1st adopters. But the NCAA, conferences, universities, coaches, sponsors, & the parents of recruits might be, especially if it applied to ALL NCAA student-athletes. Once the separate network exists, parents & coaches could agree to:
  • use only the separate network for messages to HS recruits & their parents from either coaches or university/team-affiliated sponsors;
  • limit the number of messages, as well as the number & timing of voice or video calls & text messages;
  • honor the "dead periods" and "quiet periods" defined for each sport by the NCSA.

One option would be to create a social media platform that all parties would agree to use. The rules would be defined by a consortium of all parties, with the representatives of the organized student-athletes having n% of the representation. (50% if I were king, since the players are the product in any sport, and it has to work for them, primarily. For some of you, the preferred student representation would be 0%, like the "good old days".)

There's an open-source platform called Mastodon that's basically a social media template. It allows you to create your social media network, like Twitter, but you get to define the "rules of engagement", including moderation.

The inclusion of NIL in college sports will be an evolutionary process. This is just one way to make it less chaotic, less disruptive, and better-aligned with the long-term interests of the student-athletes, and all college sports stakeholders.

With NIL, top HS recruits can come into college sports programs with their own following, and for California recruits, their own sponsorships. Clearly, top recruits will be showered with NIL compensation; and they will also come into their chosen program as a "big fish" from a small pond. Unless they went to HS programs that stress teamwork, humility, work ethic, responsibility, and accountability, the NIL could be more of an obstacle to their growth & development than a help.

I can't imagine how 4- or 5-star recruits ever manage to get any classwork done in their last 2 years of HS. Putting limits on the communications would be the entry point. The NCAA limits the number of in-home recruiting visits & phone calls by coaches; this would have to extend to potential NIL sponsors as well.

There are, of course, many unanswered questions. I'm just suggesting this as a starting point. It's one possible way to make the inclusion of NIL into college sports a more deliberate and democratic process, rather than one immediately seized by opportunists for their own gain.


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