Phantom offsides call: So Wilcox doesn't even understand what the process is...?

3,798 Views | 47 Replies | Last: 8 days ago by SmellinRoses
SmellinRoses
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Chronicle states: "Wilcox said he talked with the head of NCAA officiating Sunday to get some clarity on the penalty, but had not gotten a response as of Tuesday morning."

But according to Wilner: Process with noncon game is for opposing HC to contact his supervisor of officials (for Wilcox, that would be David Coleman), who then works with his peer in the ACC.

Leaving a guy a message hoping he'll get back to you who isn't even the appropriate contact is so Wilcox/Knowlton.

Again - an accounting of what was done to the players is warranted.
TheFiatLux
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This offsides reminded me of the non-safety call in the Maryland game in '08. It was such a ridiculously not remotely close call to blow.

Golden One
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SmellinRoses said:

Chronicle states: "Wilcox said he talked with the head of NCAA officiating Sunday to get some clarity on the penalty, but had not gotten a response as of Tuesday morning."

But according to Wilner: Process with noncon game is for opposing HC to contact his supervisor of officials (for Wilcox, that would be David Coleman), who then works with his peer in the ACC.

Leaving a guy a message hoping he'll get back to you who isn't even the appropriate contact is so Wilcox/Knowlton.



Not at all surprising that Wilcox doesn't have a clue. He has the same problem with offense, especially the OL.
calumnus
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SmellinRoses said:

Chronicle states: "Wilcox said he talked with the head of NCAA officiating Sunday to get some clarity on the penalty, but had not gotten a response as of Tuesday morning."

But according to Wilner: Process with noncon game is for opposing HC to contact his supervisor of officials (for Wilcox, that would be David Coleman), who then works with his peer in the ACC.

Leaving a guy a message hoping he'll get back to you who isn't even the appropriate contact is so Wilcox/Knowlton.

Again - an accounting of what was done to the players is warranted.


C'mon, be reasonable, he is only paid $5 million a year and has only been a HC for 6 years, he is still learning on the job.
Dgoldnbaer
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Ya ... In reality, we all need a learning curve!
calumnus
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You do think someone could have helped him out on this.
PaulCali
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calumnus said:

You do think someone could have helped him out on this.
Isn't this Knowlton's job? I mean, really, Wilcox is trying to get his football team ready for Arizona.
upsetof86
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There is a fun YouTube video of Manning teaching pop Warner kids how to throw a 3 step drop on a camp. Last scene he sets up a scenario for one of the kids ..."it's 4th down 6 seconds to go no pressure!.." the kid steps back and throws and it's dropped. Manning immediately says "defensive offsides" you get another shot. Lol he was grinning the whole time. Old trick/issue obviously.
Grrrrah76
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Plays like this should be able to be challenged. Didn't even see the refs conference or discuss the call amongst themselves or the ACC conference issue an apology. The system and networks need to protect their money makers. With huge TV contracts anhead and NILs it's just gonna get worse.
calumnus
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PaulCali said:

calumnus said:

You do think someone could have helped him out on this.
Isn't this Knowlton's job? I mean, really, Wilcox is trying to get his football team ready for Arizona.


Someone posted the process, with the coach needed to file the complaint. However, someone in the AD should have that process laid out for Wilcox including the phone numbers to call.

Same thing with the COVID protocols. Someone in the AD should have been working with campus health, the COB, etc. and defusing the strategy to deal with them. Wilcox was left to figure it out himself. Santa Clara County had worse restrictions than the COB, so the Stanford AD found practice facilities in San Mateo and Santa Cruz.
Big C
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calumnus said:

PaulCali said:

calumnus said:

You do think someone could have helped him out on this.
Isn't this Knowlton's job? I mean, really, Wilcox is trying to get his football team ready for Arizona.


Someone posted the process, with the coach needed to file the complaint. However, someone in the AD should have that process laid out for Wilcox including the phone numbers to call.

Same thing with the COVID protocols. Someone in the AD should have been working with campus health, the COB, etc. and defusing the strategy to deal with them. Wilcox was left to figure it out himself. Santa Clara County had worse restrictions than the COB, so the Stanford AD found practice facilities in San Mateo and Santa Cruz.

Somebody in the AD should do this...
Somebody in the AD should do that...

Aren't you asking for the impossible?!?

What's next?

Somebody in the AD should make sure we have cheerleaders?
Somebody in the AD should monitor our coaches to find out if they're being verbally abusive to the student-athletes??
Somebody in the AD should do their due diligence when hiring a Men's Basketball coach???

Crazy talk is what this is, crazy talk...
calumnus
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Big C said:

calumnus said:

PaulCali said:

calumnus said:

You do think someone could have helped him out on this.
Isn't this Knowlton's job? I mean, really, Wilcox is trying to get his football team ready for Arizona.


Someone posted the process, with the coach needed to file the complaint. However, someone in the AD should have that process laid out for Wilcox including the phone numbers to call.

Same thing with the COVID protocols. Someone in the AD should have been working with campus health, the COB, etc. and defusing the strategy to deal with them. Wilcox was left to figure it out himself. Santa Clara County had worse restrictions than the COB, so the Stanford AD found practice facilities in San Mateo and Santa Cruz.

Somebody in the AD should do this...
Somebody in the AD should do that...

Aren't you asking for the impossible?!?

What's next?

Somebody in the AD should make sure we have cheerleaders?
Somebody in the AD should monitor our coaches to find out if they're being verbally abusive to the student-athletes??
Somebody in the AD should do their due diligence when hiring a Men's Basketball coach???

Crazy talk is what this is, crazy talk...


LOL. Yes, nearly $1 million a year salary with an 8 year contract and probably a good UC pension and he does nothing but delegate to expensive search firms and law firms.
DiabloWags
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INSANITY
OdontoBear66
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DiabloWags said:

INSANITY

Yup, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So Cal athletic department.
oskidunker
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The game is over. We lost because of inferior line play. One bad call did not cost us the game. Move on.
Go Bears!
SmellinRoses
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"One bad call did not cost us the game." Thanks for that tired old cliche. Insightful.

Cal8285
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oskidunker said:

The game is over. We lost because of inferior line play. One bad call did not cost us the game. Move on.
One can almost never say with certainty that a bad call cost a game. The Dennis Dummit game might be an exception, but even in a situation like that, many other factors caused the game to be close enough that an end of game bad call (or bad or unlucky play) can turn victory into a loss. It isn't like Cal did everything right and only the failure to call Dummit down at the two yard line is the only thing that cost the game.

I'd say it is more than likely that Cal loses the game anyway. We'll never know, all we can know for sure is that things would have been different.

But corruption in college football matters, whether it cost Cal a game or not. And I don't have any explanation for that call besides corruption. Incompetence is not an explanation for that call, because even the most incompetent official doesn't make that call. It isn't just a bad call, it is a call that defies any explanation other than corruption.

Sure, the call bothers me because it hurt Cal. But it bothers me way more because, unless someone can come up with an explanation that makes sense, it was corrupt. It should be pursued for the good of college football. If it had been an offside call in against Notre Dame, I would say it needs to be pursued for the good of college football.

Cal got outplayed on both sides of the line and probably would have lost anyway? Sure, I can accept that. I can't accept corruption in a game official.
BearGreg
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Staff
Do you really believe Wilner knows more or cares more about this call then Wilcox?

Trust me, he went to the mat on this one
BearGoggles
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BearGreg said:

Do you really believe Wilner knows more or cares more about this call then Wilcox?

Trust me, he went to the mat on this one
I would argue that you haven't really gone to the mat if everything is done behind the scenes (or with Cal/Wilcox's public statements limited to vagaries).

In this case, going to the mat means publicly demanding an actual answer and accountability. The ref who called that penalty (who I suspect was the same one who refused to call the obvious Cal TD) should not work another D-1 game.


SmellinRoses
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Yes. Precisely.
SmellinRoses
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Hope so. But believe he should be be making a public statement demanding accountability for his players. And not stopping until he gets one. This was on another level.
BadNewsBear1
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BearGreg said:

Do you really believe Wilner knows more or cares more about this call then Wilcox?


Honestly it kinda seems like he does.
ilovetogobear
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Knowlton should have been on the field in the head official's face right after the call. Or in the booth. Or on the phone to the powers that be. Does he ever have anyones back?
BearGreg
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Staff
SmellinRoses said:

Hope so. But believe he should be be making a public statement demanding accountability for his players. And not stopping until he gets one. This was on another level.
The PR side of things, is that the HCs job or someone else at Cal? Roles and responsibilities are pretty clear here
calumnus
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BearGreg said:

SmellinRoses said:

Hope so. But believe he should be be making a public statement demanding accountability for his players. And not stopping until he gets one. This was on another level.
The PR side of things, is that the HCs job or someone else at Cal? Roles and responsibilities are pretty clear here


"But according to Wilner: Process with noncon game is for opposing HC to contact his supervisor of officials (for Wilcox, that would be David Coleman), who then works with his peer in the ACC."

Are you saying Wilner is wrong?
Golden One
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BearGreg said:

SmellinRoses said:

Hope so. But believe he should be be making a public statement demanding accountability for his players. And not stopping until he gets one. This was on another level.
The PR side of things, is that the HCs job or someone else at Cal? Roles and responsibilities are pretty clear here
Do you really think that Nick Saban or Jim Harbaugh wouldn't be all over this if the victim were Alabama or Michigan instead of Cal. Wilcox and Knowlton are just too timid and meek to let this go without taking a very vocal and public position of outrage. It's just another sign of mediocrity in our football program.
BearGreg
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Staff
I think I understand. That call was outrageous and hugely impactful. We all want Cal to make a clear, public statement that it was unacceptable and for those responsible to be held to full accountability. Correct?

And that not having seen a strong public statement on the topic is both a catalyst for speculation and highly frustrating.

I'm 100% with you.

The process that Jon Wilner suggests is but a guideline and trust me, Coach Wilcox went well beyond what Wilner outlined in pursuing the topic. However, we will have to agree to disagree if you want your HC to be the public torch bearer for an egregiously bad call by the officials. I want my HC to get his team and organization 100% focused on Arizona. To move on from that call and focus on the rest of the season. Their job is not to fix officiating in the ACC or anywhere else going forward, it's to win the next football game.

To give Cal fans the satisfaction we crave and for the betterment of officiating throughout college football going forward is one of the jobs, IMO, of the Athletic Director. It is that role that handles administrative and policy decisions such as this one in a public forum. It is that role that serves to fight for all the athletic teams under their purview and to leverage their leadership position to lobby and persuade the NCAA and conference leaders throughout the country both through private channels and the public stage. And they can do that without distracting the HC or his team.
bluehenbear
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So Knowlton should've pulled a Pat Haden?

Pat Haden goes onto field to argue with officials
OdontoBear66
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BearGreg said:

I think I understand. That call was outrageous and hugely impactful. We all want Cal to make a clear, public statement that it was unacceptable and for those responsible to be held to full accountability. Correct?

And that not having seen a strong public statement on the topic is both a catalyst for speculation and highly frustrating.

I'm 100% with you.

The process that Jon Wilner suggests is but a guideline and trust me, Coach Wilcox went well beyond what Wilner outlined in pursuing the topic. However, we will have to agree to disagree if you want your HC to be the public torch bearer for an egregiously bad call by the officials. I want my HC to get his team and organization 100% focused on Arizona. To move on from that call and focus on the rest of the season. Their job is not to fix officiating in the ACC or anywhere else going forward, it's to win the next football game.

To give Cal fans the satisfaction we crave and for the betterment of officiating throughout college football going forward is one of the jobs, IMO, of the Athletic Director. It is that role that handles administrative and policy decisions such as this one in a public forum. It is that role that serves to fight for all the athletic teams under their purview and to leverage their leadership position to lobby and persuade the NCAA and conference leaders throughout the country both through private channels and the public stage. And they can do that without distracting the HC or his team.

I can agree on Wilcox. But if not Wilcox, then Knowlton isn't preparing for any games or season even though has a lot on his plate. Someone from Cal needs to drive this "one" home. It was egregious. I sent a firm, not nasty, email to the ACC address given. Have heard nothing.

What should one even expect? I am not for firing anyone, or torching the ACC HQ for heaven's sake, but there has to be an admission of how wrong it was and how it effected the outcome of a 7 point game. How it effected a major CFB team's win. And it needs to be loud and clear, not on page 20 of yesterdays NYTimes.
Go!Bears
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Has there been any public statement?
Big C
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Go!Bears said:

Has there been any public statement?

Unfortunately, the time for fact finding, public statements, official apologies, etc. should've been Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. The more time that passes, it starts to seem like "water under the bridge" (except to us... we will remember this forever).
Go!Bears
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I am sure you are right. In 24 hours there will be a new set of outrages and but for us, no one will care. No one but us probably ever cared...
GivemTheAxe
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Cal8285 said:

oskidunker said:

The game is over. We lost because of inferior line play. One bad call did not cost us the game. Move on.
One can almost never say with certainty that a bad call cost a game. The Dennis Dummit game might be an exception, but even in a situation like that, many other factors caused the game to be close enough that an end of game bad call (or bad or unlucky play) can turn victory into a loss. It isn't like Cal did everything right and only the failure to call Dummit down at the two yard line is the only thing that cost the game.

I'd say it is more than likely that Cal loses the game anyway. We'll never know, all we can know for sure is that things would have been different.

But corruption in college football matters, whether it cost Cal a game or not. And I don't have any explanation for that call besides corruption. Incompetence is not an explanation for that call, because even the most incompetent official doesn't make that call. It isn't just a bad call, it is a call that defies any explanation other than corruption.

Sure, the call bothers me because it hurt Cal. But it bothers me way more because, unless someone can come up with an explanation that makes sense, it was corrupt. It should be pursued for the good of college football. If it had been an offside call in against Notre Dame, I would say it needs to be pursued for the good of college football.

Cal got outplayed on both sides of the line and probably would have lost anyway? Sure, I can accept that. I can't accept corruption in a game official.


I have heard many explanations about why coaches should not go crazy about bad calls from John Madden on down

My understanding is that coaches feel that there will always be bad calls. Some in your favor and some against you.
The trick for players is to shake off the bad calls and use them as motivation to win. And not to dwell on them and use them as justification to
lose.
Many posts on this topic are the latter. If only we had not had the bad call. We would have won.
Not we should have played better and overcome the bad call.

If Cal had played just slightly better Cal could have tied the game on that last series.
If Cal had not made that boneheaded unnecessary roughing the passer penalty Cal could have tied the game.

Motivation to win is what we need.
MrGPAC
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GivemTheAxe said:

Cal8285 said:

oskidunker said:

The game is over. We lost because of inferior line play. One bad call did not cost us the game. Move on.
One can almost never say with certainty that a bad call cost a game. The Dennis Dummit game might be an exception, but even in a situation like that, many other factors caused the game to be close enough that an end of game bad call (or bad or unlucky play) can turn victory into a loss. It isn't like Cal did everything right and only the failure to call Dummit down at the two yard line is the only thing that cost the game.

I'd say it is more than likely that Cal loses the game anyway. We'll never know, all we can know for sure is that things would have been different.

But corruption in college football matters, whether it cost Cal a game or not. And I don't have any explanation for that call besides corruption. Incompetence is not an explanation for that call, because even the most incompetent official doesn't make that call. It isn't just a bad call, it is a call that defies any explanation other than corruption.

Sure, the call bothers me because it hurt Cal. But it bothers me way more because, unless someone can come up with an explanation that makes sense, it was corrupt. It should be pursued for the good of college football. If it had been an offside call in against Notre Dame, I would say it needs to be pursued for the good of college football.

Cal got outplayed on both sides of the line and probably would have lost anyway? Sure, I can accept that. I can't accept corruption in a game official.


I have heard many explanations about why coaches should not go crazy about bad calls from John Madden on down

My understanding is that coaches feel that there will always be bad calls. Some in your favor and some against you.
The trick for players is to shake off the bad calls and use them as motivation to win. And not to dwell on them and use them as justification to
lose.
Many posts on this topic are the latter. If only we had not had the bad call. We would have won.
Not we should have played better and overcome the bad call.

If Cal had played just slightly better Cal could have tied the game on that last series.
If Cal had not made that boneheaded unnecessary roughing the passer penalty Cal could have tied the game.

Motivation to win is what we need.

There are bad calls due to incompetence / closeness of the play, and I agree the coach and especially the players should not dwell on those. Some will go against you, and may well cost you the game, and some will go for you, and may well win you a game.

Then there are bad calls due to corruption. These are plays that aren't judgement calls, and they should be handled differently.

Examples:

Corruption:

The offsides call vs ND. Until someone can give me any explanation other than the ref wanting to give ND another shot, this is blatant corruption and game manipulation.

Close calls that you have to move on from:

Targeting call to extend ND's drive and set up a TD.
Excessive celebration on our TD.

Questionable ones where you should give the benefit of the doubt unless that is lost:
Offensive PI call on Cal
Video review of Plummers rushing TD (*** was that?)

I'm sure there are others that I'm missing, but those are the ones that stuck out the most to me.

The last example I can think of where corruption was the only explanation was Skov's hit on Goff with no targeting call. That play is not only reviewable right after the fact, but is REVIEWABLE AFTER THE GAME. The Pac12 office saw a TEXT BOOK definition of targeting AFTER THE GAME and chose NOT to discipline the offender. There is NO excuse for that.

Doesn't help they doubled down by calling an extremely weak targeting call on Cal's safety on one of the first few plays of the game the next year. Likely retribution for Cal having the audacity to complain about corruption.

And there is NO excuse for the offsides penalty.

The rest you can't dwell on or you start playing victim and it effects the quality of your play...but you can't stand by and let corruption take over the sport.
bluehenbear
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I'm still mad about the "one hop" TD pass gifted to $C years ago, even though I think we may have won that game? Funny I remember that detail but not much else.
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