What you are not realizing about SoCal (I lived most of my life on the NorCal peninsula and then Los Gatos) is that people up north do not find the distinction between Bay Area cities and areas as do people in SoCal do. When we first moved here so many of my NorCal friends reminded us we were moving to "SmellA". In fact we were in southern OC. As soon as we moved almost to a person down here we were and are reminded that the OC is not LA. Now that does not effect team preferences as you point out well, but there are some pretty strong distinctions made in OC. Think more akin to San Diego.01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
Lil' Bro
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Last: 3 yr ago by GoCal80
My brother, who is a huge client booster, gave all kind of excuses for the poor attendance. Too hot, too cold, night games, Friday night games, LA traffic.... Yet u$c, with a much small student base, packed the Coliseum for a team who had a losing record last year. It will be interesting to see how the bruins do after losing a lot of starters, including a qb who played 5 years and the top running back in the conference.
The UC Davis student body has voted in favor of thousands of dollars of additional annual student fees for various purposes. I think IA gets a chunk of that money. When you have ~35,000 students, the money adds up.calumnus said:BearlyCareAnymore said:UC Davis' athletic department runs in the black. They have for at least the last 5 years.calumnus said:LMK5 said:Yes, attendance is down. There is apathy. But if you look at the three top academic schools in this state--Stanford, Cal, and UCLA--their attendance is about the same. There is a shortage of 20-30 year-olds at the games--the existing fan base is aging. The demographics of these 3 schools doesn't bode well for the future either, with a great many of the student body not growing up with football. But UCLA seems to be trying much harder than Cal. For one, the in-game experience at the Rose Bowl gets improved each year and is superior to that of CMS. UCLA has also been aggressive about getting feedback from fans, and I'm glad they've listened to one of mine. I've never received a request for feedback from Cal Athletics.BearlyCareAnymore said:Yeah, welcome to our world. Their attendance is down almost 50% in 8 years. The students are apathetic. Football doesn't sell there anymore. (at least they have basketball). Their athletic department is in a shambles financially speaking.Rushinbear said:
Just finished reading a thred on ucla bruins on 247 sports. They sound just like us in reverse: need a better DC or Kelly must go. Entrance and progress academic standards must be lowered in order to get and keep the best guys.
I responded: "Welcome to our world."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/sports/ncaafootball/ucla-football-game-attendance.html
There's also a big difference in expectation between Cal and UCLA. UCLA AD Jarmond has been very vocal about returning the program to excellence. They just won their 120th NCAA championship with women's soccer's victory over UNC. There's absolutely no reason why Cal can't more closely track UCLA's performance and commitment. They just have to decide what they want to be. Along with some other things, athletics feels stodgy at Cal.
As far as finances go, I'm astonished that there aren't safeguards in place that strictly prohibit state university athletic departments from going into the red. That has to get fixed. But a Cal guy calling out another school because of debt is sort of comical, no?
Do you think UC Davis' athletics department breaks even? Cal Poly? UC Riverside? San Mateo City College?
Spending money on athletics is the norm for most public (and private) schools from the junior high, high school, JC, FCS and D1 level.
Cal and UCLA are held to a different standard because they have revenue sports, I understand that political reality, but that should not be a law.
Based on what revenues?
I agree. My favorite excuse that UCLA apologists use is the one about the Rose Bowl being too far from the campus. Gimme a break. The Bruins have been playing there forever and as recently as 2014 were getting an average of 76.6k in attendance. My research indicates that the distance between the UCLA campus and the Rose Bowl has not materially changed during these last 8 years.Grrrrah76 said:
My brother, who is a huge client booster, gave all kind of excuses for the poor attendance. Too hot, too cold, night games, Friday night games, LA traffic.... Yet u$c, with a much small student base, packed the Coliseum for a team who had a losing record last year. It will be interesting to see how the bruins do after losing a lot of starters, including a qb who played 5 years and the top running back in the conference.
USC has done a better job of cultivating and maintaining a dedicated fan base. Do any of you know a USC grad who also went to Cal or UCLA? Chances are they are USC fans when they need to choose. Firstly, they get more casual football fans, possibly due to their downtown location but also possibly because of their storied football tradition. More than that, USC is known for maintaining a tight network among its students and alumni. As a matter of fact, many USC alums will recommend that students attend USC primarily because Trojans in industry will seek to hire new USC grads. That tight community, along with that feisty (or nasty) "us vs. them" mentality has resulted in better attendance.
To add to what you're saying, here in OC we look at LA as a cautionary tale.OdontoBear66 said:What you are not realizing about SoCal (I lived most of my life on the NorCal peninsula and then Los Gatos) is that people up north do not find the distinction between Bay Area cities and areas as do people in SoCal do. When we first moved here so many of my NorCal friends reminded us we were moving to "SmellA". In fact we were in southern OC. As soon as we moved almost to a person down here we were and are reminded that the OC is not LA. Now that does not effect team preferences as you point out well, but there are some pretty strong distinctions made in OC. Think more akin to San Diego.01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The distance has not changed but the travel time has due to increases in traffic.LMK5 said:I agree. My favorite excuse that UCLA apologists use is the one about the Rose Bowl being too far from the campus. Gimme a break. The Bruins have been playing there forever and as recently as 2014 were getting an average of 76.6k in attendance. My research indicates that the distance between the UCLA campus and the Rose Bowl has not materially changed during these last 8 years.Grrrrah76 said:
My brother, who is a huge client booster, gave all kind of excuses for the poor attendance. Too hot, too cold, night games, Friday night games, LA traffic.... Yet u$c, with a much small student base, packed the Coliseum for a team who had a losing record last year. It will be interesting to see how the bruins do after losing a lot of starters, including a qb who played 5 years and the top running back in the conference.
USC has done a better job of cultivating and maintaining a dedicated fan base. Do any of you know a USC grad who also went to Cal or UCLA? Chances are they are USC fans when they need to choose. Firstly, they get more casual football fans, possibly due to their downtown location but also possibly because of their storied football tradition. More than that, USC is known for maintaining a tight network among its students and alumni. As a matter of fact, many USC alums will recommend that students attend USC primarily because Trojans in industry will seek to hire new USC grads. That tight community, along with that feisty (or nasty) "us vs. them" mentality has resulted in better attendance.
Fire Knowlton!
Fire Wilcox!
Fire Wilcox!
southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
Fire Knowlton!
Fire Wilcox!
Fire Wilcox!
Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
No one thinks Berkeley and San Jose are the same place.
But everyone accepts that they are both part of the greater "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short.
For northern Californians "Los Angeles" refers to the greater Los Angeles area, and what area's /cities /counties are and are not included in it are rather vague. For instance, if you asked where 6 flags Magic Mountain is to a Northern Californian, "LA" is the likely response. Similar for "Disney Land" despite being in Anaheim. I'd imagine that much of the country views LA this way.
And I'm guessing that including Orange County in that would be akin to including Sacramento in the San Francisco Bay Area. That said, political preferences / demographics haven't stopped the Peninsula or Marin area's from being considered part of the Bay Area.
As for teams moving...I would imagine the Rams moving to Anaheim was more akin to the Niners moving to Santa Clara, or more recently, the Warriors moving to San Francisco. There were minor uproars from fans of both teams when it happened...but both teams happened to be good before/just after the move so I don't think they lost many fans. If the Warriors had sucked both before and after the move I could see a lot of Oakland fans abandoning the team / being pissed at the move.
But everyone accepts that they are both part of the greater "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short.
For northern Californians "Los Angeles" refers to the greater Los Angeles area, and what area's /cities /counties are and are not included in it are rather vague. For instance, if you asked where 6 flags Magic Mountain is to a Northern Californian, "LA" is the likely response. Similar for "Disney Land" despite being in Anaheim. I'd imagine that much of the country views LA this way.
And I'm guessing that including Orange County in that would be akin to including Sacramento in the San Francisco Bay Area. That said, political preferences / demographics haven't stopped the Peninsula or Marin area's from being considered part of the Bay Area.
As for teams moving...I would imagine the Rams moving to Anaheim was more akin to the Niners moving to Santa Clara, or more recently, the Warriors moving to San Francisco. There were minor uproars from fans of both teams when it happened...but both teams happened to be good before/just after the move so I don't think they lost many fans. If the Warriors had sucked both before and after the move I could see a lot of Oakland fans abandoning the team / being pissed at the move.
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-davis/student-life/sports/#:~:text=UC%20Davis%20Sports%20Net%20Profit,can%20vary%20with%20each%20sport.calumnus said:BearlyCareAnymore said:UC Davis' athletic department runs in the black. They have for at least the last 5 years.calumnus said:LMK5 said:Yes, attendance is down. There is apathy. But if you look at the three top academic schools in this state--Stanford, Cal, and UCLA--their attendance is about the same. There is a shortage of 20-30 year-olds at the games--the existing fan base is aging. The demographics of these 3 schools doesn't bode well for the future either, with a great many of the student body not growing up with football. But UCLA seems to be trying much harder than Cal. For one, the in-game experience at the Rose Bowl gets improved each year and is superior to that of CMS. UCLA has also been aggressive about getting feedback from fans, and I'm glad they've listened to one of mine. I've never received a request for feedback from Cal Athletics.BearlyCareAnymore said:Yeah, welcome to our world. Their attendance is down almost 50% in 8 years. The students are apathetic. Football doesn't sell there anymore. (at least they have basketball). Their athletic department is in a shambles financially speaking.Rushinbear said:
Just finished reading a thred on ucla bruins on 247 sports. They sound just like us in reverse: need a better DC or Kelly must go. Entrance and progress academic standards must be lowered in order to get and keep the best guys.
I responded: "Welcome to our world."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/sports/ncaafootball/ucla-football-game-attendance.html
There's also a big difference in expectation between Cal and UCLA. UCLA AD Jarmond has been very vocal about returning the program to excellence. They just won their 120th NCAA championship with women's soccer's victory over UNC. There's absolutely no reason why Cal can't more closely track UCLA's performance and commitment. They just have to decide what they want to be. Along with some other things, athletics feels stodgy at Cal.
As far as finances go, I'm astonished that there aren't safeguards in place that strictly prohibit state university athletic departments from going into the red. That has to get fixed. But a Cal guy calling out another school because of debt is sort of comical, no?
Do you think UC Davis' athletics department breaks even? Cal Poly? UC Riverside? San Mateo City College?
Spending money on athletics is the norm for most public (and private) schools from the junior high, high school, JC, FCS and D1 level.
Cal and UCLA are held to a different standard because they have revenue sports, I understand that political reality, but that should not be a law.
Based on what revenues?
And UC Davis' spreadsheets are on their website, just like Cal's are on Cal's.
"LA" refers to the god forsaken geographic entity that exists between Santa Barbara and San Diego that one should only enter to take one's offspring to Disneyland or Universal Studios, and if the citizens of that entity wish to further divide themselves by region, that is fine for them, in much the same way people within the Bay Area would see significant differences between Sonoma, Marin, East Bay, SF, Peninsula and San Jose, but people outside would just see the Bay Area.MrGPAC said:
No one thinks Berkeley and San Jose are the same place.
But everyone accepts that they are both part of the greater "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short.
For northern Californians "Los Angeles" refers to the greater Los Angeles area, and what area's /cities /counties are and are not included in it are rather vague. For instance, if you asked where 6 flags Magic Mountain is to a Northern Californian, "LA" is the likely response. Similar for "Disney Land" despite being in Anaheim. I'd imagine that much of the country views LA this way.
And I'm guessing that including Orange County in that would be akin to including Sacramento in the San Francisco Bay Area. That said, political preferences / demographics haven't stopped the Peninsula or Marin area's from being considered part of the Bay Area.
As for teams moving...I would imagine the Rams moving to Anaheim was more akin to the Niners moving to Santa Clara, or more recently, the Warriors moving to San Francisco. There were minor uproars from fans of both teams when it happened...but both teams happened to be good before/just after the move so I don't think they lost many fans. If the Warriors had sucked both before and after the move I could see a lot of Oakland fans abandoning the team / being pissed at the move.
Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
Right. The tremendous increase in traffic volume from LA to Pasadena after 2014 caused the average attendance to drop by over 25%. Who knew?southseasbear said:The distance has not changed but the travel time has due to increases in traffic.LMK5 said:I agree. My favorite excuse that UCLA apologists use is the one about the Rose Bowl being too far from the campus. Gimme a break. The Bruins have been playing there forever and as recently as 2014 were getting an average of 76.6k in attendance. My research indicates that the distance between the UCLA campus and the Rose Bowl has not materially changed during these last 8 years.Grrrrah76 said:
My brother, who is a huge client booster, gave all kind of excuses for the poor attendance. Too hot, too cold, night games, Friday night games, LA traffic.... Yet u$c, with a much small student base, packed the Coliseum for a team who had a losing record last year. It will be interesting to see how the bruins do after losing a lot of starters, including a qb who played 5 years and the top running back in the conference.
USC has done a better job of cultivating and maintaining a dedicated fan base. Do any of you know a USC grad who also went to Cal or UCLA? Chances are they are USC fans when they need to choose. Firstly, they get more casual football fans, possibly due to their downtown location but also possibly because of their storied football tradition. More than that, USC is known for maintaining a tight network among its students and alumni. As a matter of fact, many USC alums will recommend that students attend USC primarily because Trojans in industry will seek to hire new USC grads. That tight community, along with that feisty (or nasty) "us vs. them" mentality has resulted in better attendance.
Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
Fire Knowlton!
Fire Wilcox!
Fire Wilcox!
Well, as I indicated, we lived in the South Peninsula and LG area for 60 years. So yes, this SoCal resident knows. Played in the orchards, picked walnuts by the Winchester Mystery House as a 7 year old, worked in the canneries on Matilda Ave in S'vale in summers while at Cal, and watched the grazing land go to orchards and then tilt ups in the S.Valley. Fremont was a bunch of individual little towns or areas; and taking a Peerles Stage bus from Berkeley to LG in 1960 was a 3 hour plus trip with no freeways. The smelly tannery in Redwood City along Bayshore. But just like SoCal each area had its identity--you already indicated Marin, Sonoma and Oakland, but for a peninsula kid the East Bay was very rarely broached. Watching landowners play the Caldwell Banker agents and buyers of land for multi times its worth from 1970-2000 was a show. I recall a Chrysler/Dodge agency on the Alviso side of the 101 in San Jose selling and giving the owner a greater return than running the agency did. And that was only one story.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
Forty niners always lost to the Rams in the 50s and finally reached the NFC championship game in 1958. Led the Detroit Lions at halftime 27-7 and lost 27-35. Left them as I went to Cal shortly thereafter and get my joy and pain from Cal FB and BB.
Each has it character and characters and its plusses and minuses. Loved NorCal as well as SoCal and for very different reasons.
Wow. So wrong. Raider fans and 49ers fans detested each other. I used to say take all of the worst attributes of Stanford and USC, and none of the good or middling, bundle them up, and you get the 49ers. Raider fans regularly chanted Eff the 9ers at home games that didn't involve the 49ers. Growing up I got kicked in the head by a kid who was a 49ers fan simply for saying I was a Raiders fan. With the Raiders moving again, I've moved on, and don't have much passion for the NFL, but when I do pay attention, my new favorite team is "whomever the 49ers are playing". Old habits die hard. But good luck finding too many people that rooted for both teams.southseasbear said:Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
A's and Giants fans do not have the same level of hate, but we don't root for each other. Generally, when the Giants are in the playoffs I start off thinking "that's nice for them" in a sense that I don't really care and don't watch, but okay, my neighbors are happy, and invariably I can find a Giants fan who says something arrogant about Oakland or the A's or both, and end up saying "oh yeah. that's right. screw them." and mildly root against them not because I care about the team but because I want the arrogant among the fan base to suffer. For the most part, A's and Giants fans don't hate the other and will mostly engage in gentle ribbing, but they don't care much about the other one either.
Generally, in the Bay Area most people were East Bay fans or SF fans with the Warriors spanning both because we only had one team.
And some of the general attitudes you describe is a matter of terminology. I don't see Orange County as the same as Los Angeles at all, but to me (from Northern California) it is all "LA". But "LA" being a city and a county is not the same as "the Bay Area" which everyone here recognizes as a geographical description of the 9 Bay Area counties that encompasses the whole diversity of the area (unlike the descriptor "LA" for people in SoCal). Saying you are from the Bay Area doesn't at all imply that you are "San Franciscan", so it doesn't operate the same way as "LA". But yeah, try telling someone from Sonoma or from Oakland they are from San Francisco. That isn't going to fly.
Interesting. At least you share the geographic description "Bay Area."BearlyCareAnymore said:Wow. So wrong. Raider fans and 49ers fans detested each other. I used to say take all of the worst attributes of Stanford and USC, and none of the good or middling, bundle them up, and you get the 49ers. Raider fans regularly chanted Eff the 9ers at home games that didn't involve the 49ers. Growing up I got kicked in the head by a kid who was a 49ers fan simply for saying I was a Raiders fan. With the Raiders moving again, I've moved on, and don't have much passion for the NFL, but when I do pay attention, my new favorite team is "whomever the 49ers are playing". Old habits die hard. But good luck finding too many people that rooted for both teams.southseasbear said:Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
A's and Giants fans do not have the same level of hate, but we don't root for each other. Generally, when the Giants are in the playoffs I start off thinking "that's nice for them" in a sense that I don't really care and don't watch, but okay, my neighbors are happy, and invariably I can find a Giants fan who says something arrogant about Oakland or the A's or both, and end up saying "oh yeah. that's right. screw them." and mildly root against them not because I care about the team but because I want the arrogant among the fan base to suffer. For the most part, A's and Giants fans don't hate the other and will mostly engage in gentle ribbing, but they don't care much about the other one either.
Generally, in the Bay Area most people were East Bay fans or SF fans with the Warriors spanning both because we only had one team.
And some of the general attitudes you describe is a matter of terminology. I don't see Orange County as the same as Los Angeles at all, but to me (from Northern California) it is all "LA". But "LA" being a city and a county is not the same as "the Bay Area" which everyone here recognizes as a geographical description of the 9 Bay Area counties that encompasses the whole diversity of the area (unlike the descriptor "LA" for people in SoCal). Saying you are from the Bay Area doesn't at all imply that you are "San Franciscan", so it doesn't operate the same way as "LA". But yeah, try telling someone from Sonoma or from Oakland they are from San Francisco. That isn't going to fly.
LA and OC have no such descriptor in common. Sure, we can say "So Cal" but that would apply equally to the Inland Empire (San Bernardino and Riverside Counties) and San Diego.
I don't know if SF. Warrior Fans felt abandoned when the team moved across the Bay (although at first they played in both SF and Oakland), or if decades later the fans in Oakland felt abandoned and rejected when the team moved back to SF. Also, I don't think the '49'er fans felt disenfranchised when the team moved to Santa Clara. How would they have reacted if the '49'ers moved to Oakland?
Fire Knowlton!
Fire Wilcox!
Fire Wilcox!
southseasbear said:Interesting. At least you share the geographic description "Bay Area."BearlyCareAnymore said:Wow. So wrong. Raider fans and 49ers fans detested each other. I used to say take all of the worst attributes of Stanford and USC, and none of the good or middling, bundle them up, and you get the 49ers. Raider fans regularly chanted Eff the 9ers at home games that didn't involve the 49ers. Growing up I got kicked in the head by a kid who was a 49ers fan simply for saying I was a Raiders fan. With the Raiders moving again, I've moved on, and don't have much passion for the NFL, but when I do pay attention, my new favorite team is "whomever the 49ers are playing". Old habits die hard. But good luck finding too many people that rooted for both teams.southseasbear said:Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
A's and Giants fans do not have the same level of hate, but we don't root for each other. Generally, when the Giants are in the playoffs I start off thinking "that's nice for them" in a sense that I don't really care and don't watch, but okay, my neighbors are happy, and invariably I can find a Giants fan who says something arrogant about Oakland or the A's or both, and end up saying "oh yeah. that's right. screw them." and mildly root against them not because I care about the team but because I want the arrogant among the fan base to suffer. For the most part, A's and Giants fans don't hate the other and will mostly engage in gentle ribbing, but they don't care much about the other one either.
Generally, in the Bay Area most people were East Bay fans or SF fans with the Warriors spanning both because we only had one team.
And some of the general attitudes you describe is a matter of terminology. I don't see Orange County as the same as Los Angeles at all, but to me (from Northern California) it is all "LA". But "LA" being a city and a county is not the same as "the Bay Area" which everyone here recognizes as a geographical description of the 9 Bay Area counties that encompasses the whole diversity of the area (unlike the descriptor "LA" for people in SoCal). Saying you are from the Bay Area doesn't at all imply that you are "San Franciscan", so it doesn't operate the same way as "LA". But yeah, try telling someone from Sonoma or from Oakland they are from San Francisco. That isn't going to fly.
LA and OC have no such descriptor in common. Sure, we can say "So Cal" but that would apply equally to the Inland Empire (San Bernardino and Riverside Counties) and San Diego.
I don't know if SF. Warrior Fans felt abandoned when the team moved across the Bay (although at first they played in both SF and Oakland), or if decades later the fans in Oakland felt abandoned and rejected when the team moved back to SF. Also, I don't think the '49'er fans felt disenfranchised when the team moved to Santa Clara. How would they have reacted if the '49'ers moved to Oakland?
I think that's the biggest differentiator. We have the "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short, that all 9 counties claim membership of. As noted, if you called it "San Francisco" instead of "Bay Area" for short a lot of people would be offended who do not want to be associated with San Francisco.
Then we have the city of LA, and then the surrounding area's of LA also referred to as LA. Perhaps if there was a different name for the metro area surrounding LA like there is for the Bay Area it would be easier to differentiate. As is people who want to be associated with LA (and their politics) are happy to say they come from "LA", and people who don't (i.e. Orange County) will yell at the top of their lungs they are NOT part of LA!
There is and you just don't choose to recognize it. It is called the "Orange Curtain" and whenever you come down the 405 or the 5 and crossover you are inside the Curtain. Believer me, people down here, mostly on the OC side differentiate. Not even sure LA realizes same, or cares for that matter.MrGPAC said:southseasbear said:Interesting. At least you share the geographic description "Bay Area."BearlyCareAnymore said:Wow. So wrong. Raider fans and 49ers fans detested each other. I used to say take all of the worst attributes of Stanford and USC, and none of the good or middling, bundle them up, and you get the 49ers. Raider fans regularly chanted Eff the 9ers at home games that didn't involve the 49ers. Growing up I got kicked in the head by a kid who was a 49ers fan simply for saying I was a Raiders fan. With the Raiders moving again, I've moved on, and don't have much passion for the NFL, but when I do pay attention, my new favorite team is "whomever the 49ers are playing". Old habits die hard. But good luck finding too many people that rooted for both teams.southseasbear said:Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
A's and Giants fans do not have the same level of hate, but we don't root for each other. Generally, when the Giants are in the playoffs I start off thinking "that's nice for them" in a sense that I don't really care and don't watch, but okay, my neighbors are happy, and invariably I can find a Giants fan who says something arrogant about Oakland or the A's or both, and end up saying "oh yeah. that's right. screw them." and mildly root against them not because I care about the team but because I want the arrogant among the fan base to suffer. For the most part, A's and Giants fans don't hate the other and will mostly engage in gentle ribbing, but they don't care much about the other one either.
Generally, in the Bay Area most people were East Bay fans or SF fans with the Warriors spanning both because we only had one team.
And some of the general attitudes you describe is a matter of terminology. I don't see Orange County as the same as Los Angeles at all, but to me (from Northern California) it is all "LA". But "LA" being a city and a county is not the same as "the Bay Area" which everyone here recognizes as a geographical description of the 9 Bay Area counties that encompasses the whole diversity of the area (unlike the descriptor "LA" for people in SoCal). Saying you are from the Bay Area doesn't at all imply that you are "San Franciscan", so it doesn't operate the same way as "LA". But yeah, try telling someone from Sonoma or from Oakland they are from San Francisco. That isn't going to fly.
LA and OC have no such descriptor in common. Sure, we can say "So Cal" but that would apply equally to the Inland Empire (San Bernardino and Riverside Counties) and San Diego.
I don't know if SF. Warrior Fans felt abandoned when the team moved across the Bay (although at first they played in both SF and Oakland), or if decades later the fans in Oakland felt abandoned and rejected when the team moved back to SF. Also, I don't think the '49'er fans felt disenfranchised when the team moved to Santa Clara. How would they have reacted if the '49'ers moved to Oakland?
I think that's the biggest differentiator. We have the "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short, that all 9 counties claim membership of. As noted, if you called it "San Francisco" instead of "Bay Area" for short a lot of people would be offended who do not want to be associated with San Francisco.
Then we have the city of LA, and then the surrounding area's of LA also referred to as LA. Perhaps if there was a different name for the metro area surrounding LA like there is for the Bay Area it would be easier to differentiate. As is people who want to be associated with LA (and their politics) are happy to say they come from "LA", and people who don't (i.e. Orange County) will yell at the top of their lungs they are NOT part of LA!
golden sloth said:I do agree that the younger generation's priorities do not align with football, but I do strongly dispute the notion that they have to 'adult' faster. Far too many of the young kids joining my firm don't have basic life skills like being able to drive, cooking a decent meal, doing their own laundry, or knowing how to swim.BearlyCareAnymore said:This is not true. For many years most students have lived on or very near campus. There is a ton of off campus housing in Westwood. The buses have been part of the football game day ritual for a long time and a lot of past students report it as part of the fun of game day. It was not an obstacle before The Raiders and the Chargers are not syphoning fans off UCLA anymore than former Oakland Raiders fans are flocking to Cal. The 49ers could leave and it would not matter. Those are not the same fans.calumnus said:golden sloth said:BearlyCareAnymore said:Yeah, welcome to our world. Their attendance is down almost 50% in 8 years. The students are apathetic. Football doesn't sell there anymore. (at least they have basketball). Their athletic department is in a shambles financially speaking.Rushinbear said:
Just finished reading a thred on ucla bruins on 247 sports. They sound just like us in reverse: need a better DC or Kelly must go. Entrance and progress academic standards must be lowered in order to get and keep the best guys.
I responded: "Welcome to our world."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/sports/ncaafootball/ucla-football-game-attendance.html
All while getting progressively better on the field.
In the last 8 years, two NFL teams moved to LA plus another NFL team that used to play in LA and is still very popular, moved to nearby Vegas (weekend road trips). So a lot of football fans, including a lot of UCLA fans,are spending their money on the NFL (through the bandwagon fans can jump back as UCLA improves).
Also, in the last 8 years UCLA has been turning parking lots into dorms and now is able to house all of its students on campus. The norm used to be students living off campus, owning a car and driving to school, then driving out to the Rose Bowl for tailgating and football games on Saturdays. Now the students live on campus, and most don't own cars. Great for on campus basketball games, but not so good for football games in Pasadena. Sure there are student buses, but you have to wake up early, get to the bus, have to ride a bus for an hour, can't tailgate….
It is one reason they want what we have, an on campus stadium.
We now have only one NFL team and it is next to Stanford in Santa Clara. We are in the best situation to attract fans since the 1950s, but we have locked up a coach with the worst ranked Cal teams of all time for 5 more years, with a similar situation in basketball. We are alienating the student fans that show up. We can't even have cheerleaders ready for football games. There is great potential for Cal football and basketball but Knowlton is blowing it.
Almost all of the West Coast programs are having the same issue. You do not understand at all the changing demographics of the student bodies at UCLA and Cal. These are elite students who have to "adult" a lot faster than students did in the past and have to work for internships, grad schools and professional schools etc. a lot earlier than before. Students are much less likely to have had prior relationships with Cal than in the past - when it comes to elite universities you scatter your applications and you take who you can get. It isn't like before when you can just get straight A's and you go to Cal like your Mom and Dad. And even among those, I've known life long Cal football fans who got into Cal and could barely manage a game or two a year.
Ever wonder WHY we don't have cheerleaders ready for games? Or why the band numbers are dwindling. This is not where students are putting their energy. Times have changed. If we had held on to a modicum of success, maybe we could have held on, but this is not a hole we can dig out of. Yes, one coach followed a Hall of Fame coach and was able to bring in 2 to recruits that drew some fans. Yes, if we signed that roster again, more fans (not as many as before would come. But thinking that any of that is going to be replicated in the current environment is like arguing that I can retire tomorrow because it is possible I could hit the powerball.
Also, its not just the younger generations that are the root cause for declining attendance. Its everyone.
Maybe the things that were of utmost importance when you were growing up aren't the same things that are of utmost importance to kids growing up today.
Also, some of those "life skills" are more expensive. It's more expensive to drive, to swim, to learn to cook do they really not know how to do laundry? Also, when education and housing is more expensive than ever, some of those "life skills" aren't really a priority. Do they even teach driver's ed and home economics in school anymore? (A preliminary google search says no.)
MrGPAC said:southseasbear said:Interesting. At least you share the geographic description "Bay Area."BearlyCareAnymore said:Wow. So wrong. Raider fans and 49ers fans detested each other. I used to say take all of the worst attributes of Stanford and USC, and none of the good or middling, bundle them up, and you get the 49ers. Raider fans regularly chanted Eff the 9ers at home games that didn't involve the 49ers. Growing up I got kicked in the head by a kid who was a 49ers fan simply for saying I was a Raiders fan. With the Raiders moving again, I've moved on, and don't have much passion for the NFL, but when I do pay attention, my new favorite team is "whomever the 49ers are playing". Old habits die hard. But good luck finding too many people that rooted for both teams.southseasbear said:Here is a big difference. From my experience at Cal, people who live in San Francisco, Marin, East Bay, and the Peninsula view themselves as living in the Bay Area.BearlyCareAnymore said:Do people from "LA" understand that for instance, Sonoma County's history is almost entirely rural while Oakland was the capital of African American culture on the West Coast, while Marin was where the money lived, while SF was, well, SF, and San Jose evolved from farms to tech? Actually, I think that people my age were fully aware from election time that Orange County was the land of B-1 Bob, and that was quite different from Watts and East LA.OdontoBear66 said:Becoming less so with time but there is definitely a different vibe no matter the political coloring.southseasbear said:100% correct. Orange County was mostly white and Republican, while LA was diverse and Democratic (and had one of the country's first big city African-American mayors. Nor Cal people don't understand that LA and Orange County were two different worlds.calumnus said:southseasbear said:"Practice" is not the same as "play." 01Bear said, "For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels," which is not true.oski003 said:southseasbear said:My guess is you don't live in LA. Those of us who did viewed the move to Anaheim as a betrayal, causing the Rams to lose a significant amount of their fanbase. I had been a big fan and still remember seeing them play. I still remember the names: QB: Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworsky, Joe Namath (for a quick second). WR: Jack Snow, Lantz Rentzel, Jesse Harris. OL: Ken Iman, Tom Mack. DL: Merlin Olson, Deacon Jones, Rosey Grier, Lamar Lundy, Phil Olson, Coy Bacon, Fred Dryer. Punter: Chappel. Kicker: David Rae. Coaches George Allen, Tommy Prothro, Chuck Knox. It's been over 40 years and I still remember these names (and give me a few minutes and more will come to mind, such as LB Isiah Robertson), as they were my childhood heroes. Growing up, I either went to games (tickets were relatively inexepensive and the Coliseum never sold out) or listened on the radio (they were not televised)01Bear said:southseasbear said:Do you realize that Anaheim and Orange County are not in LA? That's like saying Berkeley is in San Jose.01Bear said:southseasbear said:The Rams left LA in 1980 and did not return until 2016. During this time, the Raiders came to fill the vacancy for a brief period with mixed results. Meanwhile, the Dodgers and Lakers had great success.golden sloth said:
One other point on UCLA attendance and the LA market. Have you seen the Rams or Charger games? Even when the Rams won the Superbowl last year their home games were 30 - 40% away fans and usually outcheered the home crowd. I know a ton of 49er fans that did a one day trip for the NFC championship game because the tixkets were so cheap. LA does not have good football fans (and the Bay Area is not far behind). LA gets by because it has such a massive media market.
The Rams left LA in 1994, it only felt like they left earlier given how poorly they played in the decade before they moved to St. Louis. The Raiders also left Los Angeles in 1994. There was no period of time where the Raiders had a monopoly on pro football in Los Angeles (you're probably thinking of the USC Trojans).
Incidentally, the Dodgers and Lakers weren't doing so well in the mid-90s, either. (Much to my chagrin) the Lakers didn't win a championship, again, until the 1999-2000 season. While that began a threepeat, the Lakers soon languished again until winning back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010. After that, the Lakers went in another championship drought until 2020.
Coincidentally, 2020 was the year the Dodgers's championship drought ended, as well. The Dodgers hadn't won a World Series since 1988, a time when the Rams were regularly losing in LA (though they managed to earn a playoff berth* with a wildcard spot that year).
*Of course, they suddenly remembered who they were and were promptly eliminated by the Vikings.
The distance between LA and Anaheim is much closer to Berkeley to Hayward than Berkeley to San Jose. (Or SF to Redwood City; whereas the distance between SF and Santa Clara is more akin that between Berkeley and San Jose.) The fact of the matter is, the Rams were still not only called the LA Rams but also maintained its fanbase in the LA metro area, since Anaheim (and really Orange County, especially north OC) are easily within the LA metro area. (Incidentally, calumnus's comparison of thr Rams's move to Anaheim to the Chargers's moving to LA is entirely distinguishable as San Diego is not within the LA metro area; as such, the Chargers really did abandon their fan base with their move.)
For that record, the Raiders played in El Segundo, not the City of Angels. In fact, the distance from LA to El Segundo is about the same distance as Berkeley to Hayward. So going by your ridiculous argument, the Raiders weren't in LA, either.
But surely you knew this, right?
The Rams left Los Angeles in 1990. Not only the city, but the County. At the beginning of this post, I speculated you didn't live in LA (at least not back then) because had you done so you would know there was a huge cultural divide. It was called the "Orange Curtain." We didn't cross it unless we were going to Disneyland. Had you ever lived in LA you would know that the Raiders could not possibly play in El Segundo because there is no stadium (other than the one at El Segundo High School) there. The Raiders played in the Coliseum. El Segundo is a suburb of LA (as is Inglewood where the Lakers and Kings played); Anaheim is not.
Sure, they still called themselves the "Los Angeles Rams," (and ironically maintained their office on Pico Blvd. in West LA (not far from where I lived but over an hour away from Anaheim) but that was like an insult. I don't know anyone who traveled to their games. And I said, most of us felt abandoned and rooted against them.
The Raiders practiced in the City of El Segundo, a city between LAX and Manhattan Beach in the Greater Los Angeles Area. The Chargers are currently building a large practice facility there now. The Lakers and Kings both practice in El Segundo as well.
When the Rams first returned to LA, they practiced in Thousand Oaks but played in LA's Coliseum. No one considered calling them the "Thousand Oaks Rams" or "Ventura County Rams.
I grew up in LA and had a job on Saturdays in El Segundo (just south of LAX). It was before I was 16 so I rode the RTD bus. El Segunfo is very much LA. Besides, the Raiders played in the Coliseum which is the middle of LA. They wanted to move to Irwindale which is "far" from the West side but essentially east LA. (Not too different, but not as nice as the Rose Bowl).
There is a reason there is a John Wayne international Airport. Orange County is far from LA. Plus it is culturaly very different. There is a reason they call the border with Orange County "the Orange Curtain." LA is the most diverse county in the country and is very liberal. Orange County, especially back in the 80s, was the opposite, one of the least diverse counties in California and one of the most conservative counties in the country (that has changed some in the last 42 years).
You may find a lot of people in San Diego that are still Chargers fans, but the number who drive to Inglewood for games is probably VERY small. The same was true when the Rams under Georgia Frontiere (also hated) moved south of the Orange Curtain. Some started going to Raiders games, others started going to UCLA and USC games.
People in the City of LA (including outlying cities on the Westside, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, South Bay, etc. view themselves as living in "LA." People in Orange County take exception to that designation. Saying that they are from "LA" (or worse, referring to them as living in a "suburb of LA") brings a similar reaction to saying "Frisco" to someone who lives in SF.
The point was, the Rams lost a significant portion of their loyal fan base when they moved to Anaheim (despite maintaining the name and their office on West Pico Boulevard (near Rancho Park).
My understanding is that Bay Area fans support teams on both sides of the Bay though they may have significantly more passion for one over the other. In the past, sports fans in LA and Orange County did not support multiple teams.
A's and Giants fans do not have the same level of hate, but we don't root for each other. Generally, when the Giants are in the playoffs I start off thinking "that's nice for them" in a sense that I don't really care and don't watch, but okay, my neighbors are happy, and invariably I can find a Giants fan who says something arrogant about Oakland or the A's or both, and end up saying "oh yeah. that's right. screw them." and mildly root against them not because I care about the team but because I want the arrogant among the fan base to suffer. For the most part, A's and Giants fans don't hate the other and will mostly engage in gentle ribbing, but they don't care much about the other one either.
Generally, in the Bay Area most people were East Bay fans or SF fans with the Warriors spanning both because we only had one team.
And some of the general attitudes you describe is a matter of terminology. I don't see Orange County as the same as Los Angeles at all, but to me (from Northern California) it is all "LA". But "LA" being a city and a county is not the same as "the Bay Area" which everyone here recognizes as a geographical description of the 9 Bay Area counties that encompasses the whole diversity of the area (unlike the descriptor "LA" for people in SoCal). Saying you are from the Bay Area doesn't at all imply that you are "San Franciscan", so it doesn't operate the same way as "LA". But yeah, try telling someone from Sonoma or from Oakland they are from San Francisco. That isn't going to fly.
LA and OC have no such descriptor in common. Sure, we can say "So Cal" but that would apply equally to the Inland Empire (San Bernardino and Riverside Counties) and San Diego.
I don't know if SF. Warrior Fans felt abandoned when the team moved across the Bay (although at first they played in both SF and Oakland), or if decades later the fans in Oakland felt abandoned and rejected when the team moved back to SF. Also, I don't think the '49'er fans felt disenfranchised when the team moved to Santa Clara. How would they have reacted if the '49'ers moved to Oakland?
I think that's the biggest differentiator. We have the "San Francisco Bay Area", or "Bay Area" for short, that all 9 counties claim membership of. As noted, if you called it "San Francisco" instead of "Bay Area" for short a lot of people would be offended who do not want to be associated with San Francisco.
Then we have the city of LA, and then the surrounding area's of LA also referred to as LA. Perhaps if there was a different name for the metro area surrounding LA like there is for the Bay Area it would be easier to differentiate. As is people who want to be associated with LA (and their politics) are happy to say they come from "LA", and people who don't (i.e. Orange County) will yell at the top of their lungs they are NOT part of LA!
The name for the area including the City of Los Angeles and the areas immediately around it including 87 other cities and unincorporated areas is "LA County." It is the largest, most populated, most diverse and wealthiest, highest GDP county in the country. LA county has more people than 40 states. It includes cities, mountains with ski resorts, forests, deserts, beaches and islands.
Orange County is not LA. If you want to say "SoCal" fine. In the same way Sacramento or Eureka is part of "NorCal" but it is not the SF Bay Area.
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