From resurrecting the furdie farm with the glove (ahem, steroids) to recruiting violations, to paying people to attend opponents' games to steal play all signs, Harbaugh is a cheater.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38696639/ncaa-investigating-no-2-michigan-amid-sign-stealing-allegations

LOL. Maybe one day it will catch up to him.

There is no cheating in business. Why do you hate America?

Bobodeluxe said:

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There is no cheating in business. Why do you hate America?

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He broke rules.

Harbaugh is a greasy man that hides behind a carefully curated weirdo persona.

Harbaugh is a great motivator, recruiter, and most importantly a WINNER. All qualities missing from "we must do better" Wilcox.

DoubtfulBear said:

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Harbaugh is a great motivator, recruiter, and most importantly a WINNER. All qualities missing from "we must do better" Wilcox.

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In this day and age where almost anything goes, scummy harbaugh > wilcox

I have never cared about sign-stealing. If someone can steal your sign, you need a better system for your signs. Trying to figure out what the other team is going to do, and when, is part of the game.

Maybe people who post on message boards really are geniuses.

#Michigan has been successful because they steal signs. pic.twitter.com/peDDAwdEa5

— Message Board Geniuses (@BoardGeniuses) May 18, 2023

bearsandgiants said:

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I have never cared about sign-stealing. If someone can steal your sign, you need a better system for your signs. Trying to figure out what the other team is going to do, and when, is part of the game.

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Agreed, with limits. I think electronic eavesdropping would be bad. Stealing a playbook is bad. But if it is visible or audible from the sidelines, stands or in the game, it is definitely fair game.

The Glove? That was cheating. Whatever the refs and the replay booth were doing in those Big Games? That was cheating.

oski003 said:

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From resurrecting the furdie farm with the glove (ahem, steroids) to recruiting violations, to paying people to attend opponents' games to steal play all signs, Harbaugh is a cheater.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38696639/ncaa-investigating-no-2-michigan-amid-sign-stealing-allegations

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Ethical wrongs versus legal wrongs.

Accepting an outsized salary relative to your crap work is morally wrong. An honorable person resigns and moves on, doesn't legally bind their employer all to the employer's detriment.

Trying to gain an advantage by breaking rules rather than outworking and outsmarting is differently but equally wrong.

Sorry, I can't materially distinguish these things. My connection, tenuous as it may be, is to Cal. Cal needs to address its own monumental failings before throwing rocks at other schools for their issues, real and perceived. Just one person's opinion.

Even if we knew what was coming, we'd be tripping over our own toes. That's coaching.

His Official BI Nickname from his Furd days was: Hairball
How soon we forget.

Not to read too much into it, but the statements coming out of the university don't sound great.

Compare:
"We will cooperate fully…"
Vs
"We vehemently deny…"

calumnus said:

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bearsandgiants said:

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I have never cared about sign-stealing. If someone can steal your sign, you need a better system for your signs. Trying to figure out what the other team is going to do, and when, is part of the game.

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Agreed, with limits. I think electronic eavesdropping would be bad. Stealing a playbook is bad. But if it is visible or audible from the sidelines, stands or in the game, it is definitely fair game.

The Glove? That was cheating. Whatever the refs and the replay booth were doing in those Big Games? That was cheating.

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Some of the most blatant favoritism I've ever seen happened in big games but it was after Harbaugh handed it over. I actually walked out of the 2014? (not sure about the year) big game in Berkeley. That was just brutal.

Teams make stealing signs so easy though..many do the huge cards so they can "Go fast". In my opinion it's their own fault. If you think they're stealing signs then send in plays with players coming in and out of the game. "I'm accusing the other team of using their eyes!!!"

MinotStateBeav said:

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Teams make stealing signs so easy though..many do the huge cards so they can "Go fast". In my opinion it's their own fault. If you think they're stealing signs then send in plays with players coming in and out of the game. "I'm accusing the other team of using their eyes!!!"

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Or just change your code for each game or even series. Give your QB a different one of these every game or even series:



Then your code only refers to a location on the wrist postcard.

calumnus said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Teams make stealing signs so easy though..many do the huge cards so they can "Go fast". In my opinion it's their own fault. If you think they're stealing signs then send in plays with players coming in and out of the game. "I'm accusing the other team of using their eyes!!!"

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Or just change your code for each game or even series. Give your QB a different wristband index card every game or even series:



Then your code only refers to a location on the wrist card. There is no code to break

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BTW, did anyone catch the math formula play cards Utah was using?

oski003 said:

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From resurrecting the furdie farm with the glove (ahem, steroids) to recruiting violations, to paying people to attend opponents' games to steal play all signs, Harbaugh is a cheater.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38696639/ncaa-investigating-no-2-michigan-amid-sign-stealing-allegations

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There are no consequences for certain people. You know that!

USC and Michigan's future efforts to out-cheat each other (and to point the finger at the other when caught) could provide entertainment for decades

calumnus said:

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bearsandgiants said:

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I have never cared about sign-stealing. If someone can steal your sign, you need a better system for your signs. Trying to figure out what the other team is going to do, and when, is part of the game.

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Agreed, with limits. I think electronic eavesdropping would be bad. Stealing a playbook is bad. But if it is visible or audible from the sidelines, stands or in the game, it is definitely fair game.

The Glove? That was cheating. Whatever the refs and the replay booth were doing in those Big Games? That was cheating.

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A source told ESPN on Tuesday that the NCAA has been sent at least an hour of video evidence that shows a person sitting in a seat APPEARING TO VIDEO THE HOME SIDELINE with a smartphone. Stalions purchased the ticket for that seat. The video is expected to be used as part of the investigation to show that electronics were used in the signal-stealing ring, according to sources.

ESPN also learned that Stalions, who is at the center of an NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, bought tickets to a 12th Big Ten school, as sources at 12 of the 13 possible Big Ten schools have a record of Stalions buying a ticket there. ESPN reported on Monday there were 11 schools.

According to four sources, all of the tickets for games outside the Big Ten involved CFP contenders and were purchased either toward the middle or end of the 2022 season, as Michigan was headed to the College Football Playoff for the second consecutive season.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38736903/michigan-staffer-bought-tickets-non-big-ten-games

bencgilmore said:

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USC and Michigan's future efforts to out-cheat each other (and to point the finger at the other when caught) could provide entertainment for decades

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You think Hairball stays at Michigan after this investigation is done? I don't. I think he's headed for either the NFL or TV.

What’s weirder than the news tonight that the now-suspended Michigan staffer accused of a sign-stealing operation bought tickets to Alabama, Clemson Georgia and Tennessee games in 2022?

A @Volquest_On3 poster dropped the dime on all this in December.https://t.co/7QBvBgTxX6 pic.twitter.com/Hktt97RlCP

— Andy Staples (@Andy_Staples) October 25, 2023

Remember, sign-stealing is technically not prohibited under NCAA rules unless electronic communication is intercepted in-game.

In-person scouting is explicitly outlawed by the rule book.

NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1 states: "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."

Michigan very clearly violated the rules here. The NCAA will take forever to do anything about this. Conferences have forever been deferring to the NCAA regarding the rules. But the B1G can act here and should. Michigan should have to forfeit any games where this staffer has scouted the opponent in person. And keep them out of the B1G championship game. If the CFP still wants to invite them they can, but the conference needs to take a stand.

In fact all conferences need to step up their enforcement and discipline. There is widespread tampering and NIL in almost all cases is blatant pay to play. Additionally the number of "extra" staffers needs to be looked at and hard. The disparity between the Alabama's, Ohio States and others is alarming. If you want to have real competition and some sort of parity (they don't) you need to make the playing field more equal.

But TV and the conferences love super teams. They draw eyeballs and attract $$$. So nothing will change. But Michigan needs to get slapped hard here. Now. Not in 3 years. And Harbaugh needs a lifetime show cause designation. These rules get broken and nothing ever happens. Essentially you need to cheat or you are a chump.

6956bear said:

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Michigan very clearly violated the rules here. The NCAA will take forever to do anything about this. Conferences have forever been deferring to the NCAA regarding the rules. But the B1G can act here and should. Michigan should have to forfeit any games where this staffer has scouted the opponent in person.

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The investigation will drag on long enough for Harbaugh to leave, if he wants to, and Michigan will eventually get only a slap on the wrist.

The Michigan staff member reportedly did not scout games in person while he was on Michigan's payroll. He recruited "volunteers", probably Michigan fans and alums, to attend these games. The Michigan staff member was dumb to use his own credit card to buy game tickets. (He was surely reimbursed for all of these expenses by a Michigan booster, so why didn't the booster buy the tickets and keep the Michigan staffer's name out of it?) Regardless, Michigan can argue that the volunteers who are not university employees are not bound by the NCAA prohibition on scouting, and that there is no rule preventing "friends of the team" from attending an opponent's game and reporting back to a coach or staff member.

Michigan will also argue that other teams do similar things, with or without taking videos of the playcalling cards. For example: NFL scouts sometimes attend college games to watch players who will be high draft picks. College coaches who know NFL scouts probably call them up to get "scouting reports" on teams the scout has watched. Is the NCAA going to interview every NFL scout who has watched college games in the past few years and get the scouts to identify every college coach they've spoken to? Will the NCAA then sanction all of those teams? Of course not.

The rule barring in-person scouting of opponents is dumb. Every college team with lots of money to burn is already outspending the rest of college football in a million different ways. There's no need for a rule that prevents a team staff member from scouting, when the wealthiest teams already have 20 extra staff members who will just do other things to gain an advantage even if they don't scout opponents in person.

BearSD said:

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6956bear said:

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Michigan very clearly violated the rules here. The NCAA will take forever to do anything about this. Conferences have forever been deferring to the NCAA regarding the rules. But the B1G can act here and should. Michigan should have to forfeit any games where this staffer has scouted the opponent in person.

---

The investigation will drag on long enough for Harbaugh to leave, if he wants to, and Michigan will eventually get only a slap on the wrist.

The Michigan staff member reportedly did not scout games in person while he was on Michigan's payroll. He recruited "volunteers", probably Michigan fans and alums, to attend these games. The Michigan staff member was dumb to use his own credit card to buy game tickets. (He was surely reimbursed for all of these expenses by a Michigan booster, so why didn't the booster buy the tickets and keep the Michigan staffer's name out of it?) Regardless, Michigan can argue that the volunteers who are not university employees are not bound by the NCAA prohibition on scouting, and that there is no rule preventing "friends of the team" from attending an opponent's game and reporting back to a coach or staff member.

Michigan will also argue that other teams do similar things, with or without taking videos of the playcalling cards. For example: NFL scouts sometimes attend college games to watch players who will be high draft picks. College coaches who know NFL scouts probably call them up to get "scouting reports" on teams the scout has watched. Is the NCAA going to interview every NFL scout who has watched college games in the past few years and get the scouts to identify every college coach they've spoken to? Will the NCAA then sanction all of those teams? Of course not.

The rule barring in-person scouting of opponents is dumb. Every college team with lots of money to burn is already outspending the rest of college football in a million different ways. There's no need for a rule that prevents a team staff member from scouting, when the wealthiest teams already have 20 extra staff members who will just do other things to gain an advantage even if they don't scout opponents in person.

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All that you say may very well be true. But clearly there was a reason this "staffer" did this. You are not allowed to do it. Harbaugh colors outside the lines often. He is crossing the line enough here that other programs are blowing the whistle.

At some point the rules need to be enforced. Even the stupid ones. Why bother otherwise. If the rules need adjusting then adjust them. But you cannot let a program as powerful as Michigan is simply do as they please.

6956bear said:

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BearSD said:

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6956bear said:

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Michigan very clearly violated the rules here. The NCAA will take forever to do anything about this. Conferences have forever been deferring to the NCAA regarding the rules. But the B1G can act here and should. Michigan should have to forfeit any games where this staffer has scouted the opponent in person.

---

The investigation will drag on long enough for Harbaugh to leave, if he wants to, and Michigan will eventually get only a slap on the wrist.

The Michigan staff member reportedly did not scout games in person while he was on Michigan's payroll. He recruited "volunteers", probably Michigan fans and alums, to attend these games. The Michigan staff member was dumb to use his own credit card to buy game tickets. (He was surely reimbursed for all of these expenses by a Michigan booster, so why didn't the booster buy the tickets and keep the Michigan staffer's name out of it?) Regardless, Michigan can argue that the volunteers who are not university employees are not bound by the NCAA prohibition on scouting, and that there is no rule preventing "friends of the team" from attending an opponent's game and reporting back to a coach or staff member.

Michigan will also argue that other teams do similar things, with or without taking videos of the playcalling cards. For example: NFL scouts sometimes attend college games to watch players who will be high draft picks. College coaches who know NFL scouts probably call them up to get "scouting reports" on teams the scout has watched. Is the NCAA going to interview every NFL scout who has watched college games in the past few years and get the scouts to identify every college coach they've spoken to? Will the NCAA then sanction all of those teams? Of course not.

The rule barring in-person scouting of opponents is dumb. Every college team with lots of money to burn is already outspending the rest of college football in a million different ways. There's no need for a rule that prevents a team staff member from scouting, when the wealthiest teams already have 20 extra staff members who will just do other things to gain an advantage even if they don't scout opponents in person.

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All that you say may very well be true. But clearly there was a reason this "staffer" did this. You are not allowed to do it. Harbaugh colors outside the lines often. He is crossing the line enough here that other programs are blowing the whistle.

At some point the rules need to be enforced. Even the stupid ones. Why bother otherwise. If the rules need adjusting then adjust them. But you cannot let a program as powerful as Michigan is simply do as they please.

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Maybe they will get hit hard. And maybe not. Kansas' basketball coach was recorded on an FBI wiretap talking to his adidas rep who assured him that he would take care of KU and get them some "real guys" like Nike does for Kentucky, Duke, etc. Arizona had an assistant basketball coach busted in the same FBI investigation and that coach even went to prison. Neither team got more than a slap on the wrist from the NCAA.

6956bear said:

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BearSD said:

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6956bear said:

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Michigan very clearly violated the rules here. The NCAA will take forever to do anything about this. Conferences have forever been deferring to the NCAA regarding the rules. But the B1G can act here and should. Michigan should have to forfeit any games where this staffer has scouted the opponent in person.

---

The investigation will drag on long enough for Harbaugh to leave, if he wants to, and Michigan will eventually get only a slap on the wrist.

The Michigan staff member reportedly did not scout games in person while he was on Michigan's payroll. He recruited "volunteers", probably Michigan fans and alums, to attend these games. The Michigan staff member was dumb to use his own credit card to buy game tickets. (He was surely reimbursed for all of these expenses by a Michigan booster, so why didn't the booster buy the tickets and keep the Michigan staffer's name out of it?) Regardless, Michigan can argue that the volunteers who are not university employees are not bound by the NCAA prohibition on scouting, and that there is no rule preventing "friends of the team" from attending an opponent's game and reporting back to a coach or staff member.

Michigan will also argue that other teams do similar things, with or without taking videos of the playcalling cards. For example: NFL scouts sometimes attend college games to watch players who will be high draft picks. College coaches who know NFL scouts probably call them up to get "scouting reports" on teams the scout has watched. Is the NCAA going to interview every NFL scout who has watched college games in the past few years and get the scouts to identify every college coach they've spoken to? Will the NCAA then sanction all of those teams? Of course not.

The rule barring in-person scouting of opponents is dumb. Every college team with lots of money to burn is already outspending the rest of college football in a million different ways. There's no need for a rule that prevents a team staff member from scouting, when the wealthiest teams already have 20 extra staff members who will just do other things to gain an advantage even if they don't scout opponents in person.

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All that you say may very well be true. But clearly there was a reason this "staffer" did this. You are not allowed to do it. Harbaugh colors outside the lines often. He is crossing the line enough here that other programs are blowing the whistle.

At some point the rules need to be enforced. Even the stupid ones. Why bother otherwise. If the rules need adjusting then adjust them. But you cannot let a program as powerful as Michigan is simply do as they please.

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Agreed. The rules are in place <mostly> to insure "fair" competition. No one is saying in person scouting is not against the rules. It is like contacting recruits during a dead period. It gives your team some competitive advantage. How much? is a question as well as how much Harbaugh knew and if the scouts were paid, etc. will Michigan get a hand slap or something stronger?

How do folks feel about the advantage Tedford got with Tosh getting around NCAA contact limits by messaging recruits while playing Madden with them on XBox?

oski003 said:

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Bobodeluxe said:

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There is no cheating in business. Why do you hate America?

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He broke rules.

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everyone does, or don't you ever drive on the fwys? LOL

This should be grounds for Cal, Furd, and others to sue the rogue B1G conference. Michigan's systematic cheating resulted in skewed perceptions regarding the quality of product on the field leading to overestimates in TV value which led to the dissolution of a competing conference.

#OhioState fans also believe that #Michigan has to be cheating. pic.twitter.com/gQIJztZHIT

— Message Board Geniuses (@BoardGeniuses) December 4, 2022

rules against sign stealing are archaic and nonsensical.
everyone is pushing for an edge, and any coach that isn't pushing the boundaries is a sucka

most folks are focused on the players on the field so much that they don't realize that you can see the signaling during live broadcasts of games. Sometimes they have the signs, sometimes its people doing odd gesturing. Every team has folks trying to decipher signs in-game, and if a person can figure it out in 15 minutes, then they sure af will figure them out after watching 6 hours of game tape.

when coaches are watching game tape they see the signals. should they look closely enough at the signals to figure it out? Better question is, how the hell can any professional coach not pay attention to the signals while watching game tape? It gives you an edge, and it's not illegal. You don't have to send anyone to go film a game to get this data.

coaches are responsible for changing things up, or are there coaches who refuse to change the signs and just keep plodding along? this recent ESPN article even gives title game scenarios where they were sure their signs had been stolen and they had to change them up. There is a quip in the article that did make me wonder about how good Tedford, Dykes, and now Wilcox have been about changing signs mid game.

"If a defense blows up your bubble screen three times in a row, chances are they have your number..." so are we bad at bubble screens or do other teams just have our number? Past 15 years of Cal football makes me think that Cal has two mottos: Fiat Lux and, getting our bubble screens blown up.

ESPN - college coaches on sign stealing

BarcaBear said:

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when coaches are watching game tape they see the signals. should they look closely enough at the signals to figure it out? Better question is, how the hell can any professional coach not pay attention to the signals while watching game tape? It gives you an edge, and it's not illegal. You don't have to send anyone to go film a game to get this data.

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Game tape and TV video don't capture the signals and signal cards on *every* play. Presumably, Hairball went to great lengths to send folks to upcoming opponents' games in order to get video of as many signals and corresponding plays as possible, and to see if a team is using the same signals all season or if they switch it up.