High school football in California

""We need more kids to play football here," Smith told me. "And we need to help those kids so that our kids can play healthy and so they can walk to their families and hug them afterwards and feel good not just about winning or losing, but about being healthy and not being completely exhausted."
Ultimately, Smith and those at Menlo decided they weren't going to be healthy enough to complete a game this week. Having seen the state of Menlo's roster after last week's contest, I can't fault the school's decision-makers.
This issue goes far beyond Menlo School, but its example encapsulates a number of issues high school sports are dealing with in this era. It's a concern at schools of all sizes, both public and private. In Menlo's case, it's among the small private schools trying to keep football afloat."

Bobodeluxe said:

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High school football in California

""We need more kids to play football here," Smith told me. "And we need to help those kids so that our kids can play healthy and so they can walk to their families and hug them afterwards and feel good not just about winning or losing, but about being healthy and not being completely exhausted."
Ultimately, Smith and those at Menlo decided they weren't going to be healthy enough to complete a game this week. Having seen the state of Menlo's roster after last week's contest, I can't fault the school's decision-makers.
This issue goes far beyond Menlo School, but its example encapsulates a number of issues high school sports are dealing with in this era. It's a concern at schools of all sizes, both public and private. In Menlo's case, it's among the small private schools trying to keep football afloat."

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A thousand stars on this one. I get villified, flamed and attacked on these boards but this is what I mean when I say that Cal has some serious headwinds that are NOT about firing the coach (which we should) or idiocy at the admin (which is bad). Football in Calfornia is in a challenged spot - especially compared to other places around the country.

This is true. But, on the other hand, you know what's growing hugely? Youth rugby!

Over the weekend, Cal competed in the West Coast 7s tournament in Oceanside. The high school rugby was incredible!!!! The title game with Central Catholic vs. (Sacramento) Carmichael was indicative of how far and how fast rugby has grown in the U.S. The quality of play was simply outstanding.

Football is declining among athletes for a few reasons. Most notably, injuries. The game is no longer played as it was intended to be played. Tackling has been replaced with "hitting". Equipment has been designed in a way that actually encourages poor performance. Players are excessively huge and lots of good players get passed over because they are "too small". And there is an overall aura associated with the football that has been marred by flamboyance, trash talk, excessive celebration, and a general disregard for respect and sportsmanship. That "aura" has turned a lot of parents off to football, and many kids are opting for a game that encourages (in fact demands) respect for officiating, and camaraderie/sportsmanship. As for injuries, the nature of rugby demands that tackling be done properly and safely.

So while football is declining, rugby is growing at a very fast pace.

I love football......always will. But my enthusiasm for the game has declined while my enthusiasm for rugby has greatly accelerated.

And having played both, I tell you I still have the occasional dream of being on the rugby pitch far more frequently than I dream about being on a football field.

This is why I actually have more hope going forward for basketball than football. Basketball is played all over the world, and with the entire world to recruit from, there's always the possibility of finding a great player that your peers have missed. By contrast, American football isn't even played broadly in substantial portions of America, the Bay Area being a prime example of that. Hard to recruit in the back yard if the back yard is a desert. The Poly/Hawaii connection helps ameliorate some of that, especially for linemen.

While it is true that football participation among California preps has been declining for years, there is still a plethora of talent being produced. It just isn't coming to Cal as more and more of the cream escapes to the Big 10 and the SEC.

Football seems to be going the way of boxing. Before anyone rebuts by pointing out that the NFL pulls in billions a year as does college football, I recognize the finances are what they are, but I'm not necessarily talking about finances. Rather, football is following boxing's route in that it's become "a way out" of the lower socioeconomic strata; meanwhile the upper middle classes and above are keeping their kids away* from these sports for fear of injury (to their brains) while simultaneously still enjoying watching gladiatorial contests.

To be clear, I enjoy watching (college) football and boxing. I'm not here to tear them down nor to demand that Cal give up football. I'm just saying that the segment of the population that plays football now and will likely play football in the future is becoming more and more homogenized. But I'm not really making a new argument; this argument has been made many times before by people much more eloquent and educated on the topic than I. The main difference is that I reckon as society becomes more unequal economically, the lower socioeconomic strata populations will expand, which will increase the number of kids who turn to football and boxing (not to mention other combat sports, particularly mixed martial arts) in their struggle to get out of their difficult circumstances. This could lead to fewer high school students being prepared for the rigors of a Cal classroom, which could mean that Cal will have to recruit more and more from the portal.


*Obviously, there are exceptions to the rules, including some former boxers and/or football players who encourage their sons to follow in their footsteps.

I don't think anybody in South Central is worried about California high school football impacting their program, nor is anybody in Eugene

This California HS trend is very bad for Cal recruiting

Timing is everything... if I played HS football today, I could have been the starting RB and starting Safety on my team as my HS doesn't have a full roster of even 22 players so most players play both offense and defense (and punter/kicker) :0

HoopDreams said:

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This California HS trend is very bad for Cal recruiting

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We dragged Dykes for his focus on Texas recruiting, although it seemed (and was) dumb at the time, he was just ahead of the curve

There are about a million kids playing HS football nationwide (2023)

There are maybe 15-20,000 players in the FBS playing college

There are about 2000 players in the NFL

Suburban schools in California aren't a deal breaker

Football injuries are WAY over reported.

My experimentally repaired left ankle is 80 to 90% functional.

When both my knees are replaced next month I expect to be able to walk to Memorial again.

Despite several concussions, one that had me out of school for three weeks, or so I am told, I don't remember, my latest mri showed only normal atrophy for a person of my age.

Other than that, a few broken bones, some random arthritis, scars, broken teeth, …

Anarchistbear said:

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There are about a million kids playing HS football nationwide (2023)

There are maybe 15-20,000 players in the FBS playing college

There are about 2000 players in the NFL

Suburban schools in California aren't a deal breaker

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There has been a post-covid blip but the decade prior was bad for participation. This is a multi-year variable and probably needs to be measured as such. I DO know pariticpation in youth footballl is cratering (and still cratering) in California with numerous mergers to make it work.

TomBear said:

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This is true. But, on the other hand, you know what's growing hugely? Youth rugby!

Over the weekend, Cal competed in the West Coast 7s tournament in Oceanside. The high school rugby was incredible!!!! The title game with Central Catholic vs. (Sacramento) Carmichael was indicative of how far and how fast rugby has grown in the U.S. The quality of play was simply outstanding.

Football is declining among athletes for a few reasons. Most notably, injuries. The game is no longer played as it was intended to be played. Tackling has been replaced with "hitting". Equipment has been designed in a way that actually encourages poor performance. Players are excessively huge and lots of good players get passed over because they are "too small". And there is an overall aura associated with the football that has been marred by flamboyance, trash talk, excessive celebration, and a general disregard for respect and sportsmanship. That "aura" has turned a lot of parents off to football, and many kids are opting for a game that encourages (in fact demands) respect for officiating, and camaraderie/sportsmanship. As for injuries, the nature of rugby demands that tackling be done properly and safely.

So while football is declining, rugby is growing at a very fast pace.

I love football......always will. But my enthusiasm for the game has declined while my enthusiasm for rugby has greatly accelerated.

And having played both, I tell you I still have the occasional dream of being on the rugby pitch far more frequently than I dream about being on a football field.

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Absolutely! San Diego is a huge hotbed for the sport with club teams like the Mustangs and the Carlsbad team both being nationally prominent and placing numerous kids on Clark's squad.

socaltownie said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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There are about a million kids playing HS football nationwide (2023)

There are maybe 15-20,000 players in the FBS playing college

There are about 2000 players in the NFL

Suburban schools in California aren't a deal breaker

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There has been a post-covid blip but the decade prior was bad for participation. This is a multi-year variable and probably needs to be measured as such. I DO know pariticpation in youth footballl is cratering (and still cratering) in California with numerous mergers to make it work.

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Plenty of bodies left to service a league that has unparalleled popularity and revenue. One thing that is obvious, though, is that NFL players are woefully underpaid. Still an owner's league

Jeff82 said:

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This is why I actually have more hope going forward for basketball than football. Basketball is played all over the world, and with the entire world to recruit from, there's always the possibility of finding a great player that your peers have missed. By contrast, American football isn't even played broadly in substantial portions of America, the Bay Area being a prime example of that. Hard to recruit in the back yard if the back yard is a desert. The Poly/Hawaii connection helps ameliorate some of that, especially for linemen.

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eSports is the future man. All those nerds coming to Cal already. We have the recruiting pool to dominate!

Bobodeluxe said:

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Football injuries are WAY over reported.

My experimentally repaired left ankle is 80 to 90% functional.

When both my knees are replaced next month I expect to be able to walk to Memorial again.

Despite several concussions, one that had me out of school for three weeks, or so I am told, I don't remember, my latest mri showed only normal atrophy for a person of my age.

Other than that, a few broken bones, some random arthritis, scars, broken teeth, …

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You are looking at that poster of Jim Otto as you write this, aren't you?

TomBear said:

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This is true. But, on the other hand, you know what's growing hugely? Youth rugby!

Over the weekend, Cal competed in the West Coast 7s tournament in Oceanside. The high school rugby was incredible!!!! The title game with Central Catholic vs. (Sacramento) Carmichael was indicative of how far and how fast rugby has grown in the U.S. The quality of play was simply outstanding.

Football is declining among athletes for a few reasons. Most notably, injuries. The game is no longer played as it was intended to be played. Tackling has been replaced with "hitting". Equipment has been designed in a way that actually encourages poor performance. Players are excessively huge and lots of good players get passed over because they are "too small". And there is an overall aura associated with the football that has been marred by flamboyance, trash talk, excessive celebration, and a general disregard for respect and sportsmanship. That "aura" has turned a lot of parents off to football, and many kids are opting for a game that encourages (in fact demands) respect for officiating, and camaraderie/sportsmanship. As for injuries, the nature of rugby demands that tackling be done properly and safely.

So while football is declining, rugby is growing at a very fast pace.

I love football......always will. But my enthusiasm for the game has declined while my enthusiasm for rugby has greatly accelerated.

And having played both, I tell you I still have the occasional dream of being on the rugby pitch far more frequently than I dream about being on a football field.

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Really interesting. Thank you.

01Bear said:

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weeFootball seems to be going the way of boxing. Before anyone rebuts by pointing out that the NFL pulls in billions a year as does college football, I recognize the finances are what they are, but I'm not necessarily talking about finances. Rather, football is following boxing's route in that it's become "a way out" of the lower socioeconomic strata; meanwhile the upper middle classes and above are keeping their kids away* from these sports for fear of injury (to their brains) while simultaneously still enjoying watching gladiatorial contests.

To be clear, I enjoy watching (college) football and boxing. I'm not here to tear them down nor to demand that Cal give up football. I'm just saying that the segment of the population that plays football now and will likely play football in the future is becoming more and more homogenized. But I'm not really making a new argument; this argument has been made many times before by people much more eloquent and educated on the topic than I. The main difference is that I reckon as society becomes more unequal economically, the lower socioeconomic strata populations will expand, which will increase the number of kids who turn to football and boxing (not to mention other combat sports, particularly mixed martial arts) in their struggle to get out of their difficult circumstances. This could lead to fewer high school students being prepared for the rigors of a Cal classroom, which could mean that Cal will have to recruit more and more from the portal.


*Obviously, there are exceptions to the rules, including some former boxers and/or football players who encourage their sons to follow in their footsteps.

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Here's the thing. There was a study where they followed HS football players and tested their cognitive functioning throughout the year. Virtually all of them declined from week to week whether or not they had any known injury. Being teenagers, their scores bounced back after the season was over.

It was one study. Not a big enough sample size. But if you want your kid to go to college and they can do that academically and you can pay for that, do you want their cognitive functioning impaired for half their high school classes?

I didn't have boys, but I would not have signed that permission slip. The risk of catastrophic injury and temporary or long term damage to brain functioning is too high. There are lots of great sports out there that still have risk, but not that great.

BearlyCareAnymore said:

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01Bear said:

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weeFootball seems to be going the way of boxing. Before anyone rebuts by pointing out that the NFL pulls in billions a year as does college football, I recognize the finances are what they are, but I'm not necessarily talking about finances. Rather, football is following boxing's route in that it's become "a way out" of the lower socioeconomic strata; meanwhile the upper middle classes and above are keeping their kids away* from these sports for fear of injury (to their brains) while simultaneously still enjoying watching gladiatorial contests.

To be clear, I enjoy watching (college) football and boxing. I'm not here to tear them down nor to demand that Cal give up football. I'm just saying that the segment of the population that plays football now and will likely play football in the future is becoming more and more homogenized. But I'm not really making a new argument; this argument has been made many times before by people much more eloquent and educated on the topic than I. The main difference is that I reckon as society becomes more unequal economically, the lower socioeconomic strata populations will expand, which will increase the number of kids who turn to football and boxing (not to mention other combat sports, particularly mixed martial arts) in their struggle to get out of their difficult circumstances. This could lead to fewer high school students being prepared for the rigors of a Cal classroom, which could mean that Cal will have to recruit more and more from the portal.


*Obviously, there are exceptions to the rules, including some former boxers and/or football players who encourage their sons to follow in their footsteps.

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Here's the thing. There was a study where they followed HS football players and tested their cognitive functioning throughout the year. Virtually all of them declined from week to week whether or not they had any known injury. Being teenagers, their scores bounced back after the season was over.

It was one study. Not a big enough sample size. But if you want your kid to go to college and they can do that academically and you can pay for that, do you want their cognitive functioning impaired for half their high school classes?

I didn't have boys, but I would not have signed that permission slip. The risk of catastrophic injury and temporary or long term damage to brain functioning is too high. There are lots of great sports out there that still have risk, but not that great.

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I'm pretty sure I posted this before but...when I got tested post seizures in 2023 one of the doctors reviewing my test as a favor to me told me he was retired and had a retirement job: do baseline cognitive tests for exNFL players. They all showed various degrees of CTE. Alot of them were not old.

BearlyCareAnymore said:

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01Bear said:

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weeFootball seems to be going the way of boxing. Before anyone rebuts by pointing out that the NFL pulls in billions a year as does college football, I recognize the finances are what they are, but I'm not necessarily talking about finances. Rather, football is following boxing's route in that it's become "a way out" of the lower socioeconomic strata; meanwhile the upper middle classes and above are keeping their kids away* from these sports for fear of injury (to their brains) while simultaneously still enjoying watching gladiatorial contests.

To be clear, I enjoy watching (college) football and boxing. I'm not here to tear them down nor to demand that Cal give up football. I'm just saying that the segment of the population that plays football now and will likely play football in the future is becoming more and more homogenized. But I'm not really making a new argument; this argument has been made many times before by people much more eloquent and educated on the topic than I. The main difference is that I reckon as society becomes more unequal economically, the lower socioeconomic strata populations will expand, which will increase the number of kids who turn to football and boxing (not to mention other combat sports, particularly mixed martial arts) in their struggle to get out of their difficult circumstances. This could lead to fewer high school students being prepared for the rigors of a Cal classroom, which could mean that Cal will have to recruit more and more from the portal.


*Obviously, there are exceptions to the rules, including some former boxers and/or football players who encourage their sons to follow in their footsteps.

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Here's the thing. There was a study where they followed HS football players and tested their cognitive functioning throughout the year. Virtually all of them declined from week to week whether or not they had any known injury. Being teenagers, their scores bounced back after the season was over.

It was one study. Not a big enough sample size. But if you want your kid to go to college and they can do that academically and you can pay for that, do you want their cognitive functioning impaired for half their high school classes?

I didn't have boys, but I would not have signed that permission slip. The risk of catastrophic injury and temporary or long term damage to brain functioning is too high. There are lots of great sports out there that still have risk, but not that great.

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I get that. Let's assume the study (and its results) were not only repeated but included a significant enough number of participants to be representative, it still runs into the socioeconomic divide. So long as the divide the have not population grows, there will be a larger pool of athletes looking to change their circumstances by playing the football lottery. Sure, most will end up losing, but a few will win and get out.

To expand on SoCalTownies contribution:

The Bay Area/Sacramento area is also a hotbed of high school and youth rugby. Beardog26 can address this far better than I because he's directly involved with youth rugby in the Bay Area. But Carmichael, Danville Oaks, LaMo, De La Salle, Granite Bay, Jesuit (just to name a few) are feeding lines to Cal and St. Marys. There are Cal coaches everywhere helping to grow the game. And girls are increasingly getting interested in their side of rugby as well. You look at the rugby rankings for high school and you see some real impressive teams in the south and the east too.

BTW, congratulations to Cal Women's Rugby. They are becoming quite the topic in the world of women's collegiate rugby.

The game is exploding because of the laws and traditions that rugby enforce, coupled with the problems with football that have been well documented elsewhere in this thread.

For those with Facebook, here's a link that is well worth your time. It's a great example of why rugby is catching on, and what makes those of us who played and/or watch it love it so much.

And if you like football but have never seen rugby, I think this will be of particular interest to you.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1378693840260208

Rugby is not magically immune from the same CTE and brain health issues that affect football: https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/05/sport/cte-rugby-early-onset-dementia-intl-spt

Neither is wrestling, soccer, ice hockey or roller derby, lol.

As a former rugger who has had at least one concussion (possibly more I don't know about), I can easily tell you why football lends itself to more concussions than rugby:

Football players are coached to use their heads/helmets as weapons.

And, football players (especially DBs) have degraded their game to a game of "hits" vs. tackling.

TomBear said:

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Neither is wrestling, soccer, ice hockey or roller derby, lol.

As a former rugger who has had at least one concussion (possibly more I don't know about), I can easily tell you why football lends itself to more concussions than rugby:

Football players are coached to use their heads/helmets as weapons.

And, football players (especially DBs) have degraded their game to a game of "hits" vs. tackling.

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Back in 2000, the NEJM already had articles discussing the cumulative effects of subconcussive brain trauma (on college aged student athletes) and how it was not significantly different from the effects of concussions.

If you're not opposed to it from a religious or other ground, maybe you'd be willing to donate your brain for CTE research. To be clear, I'm not suggesting you have CTE, rather I think it's important to have brains from people who were athletes in other contact sports with which to compare the brains from former football players. (I'm considering donating mine, as well, but i need to find a donee that would be willing to accept it for CTE research purposes.)

TomBear said:

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Neither is wrestling, soccer, ice hockey or roller derby, lol.

As a former rugger who has had at least one concussion (possibly more I don't know about), I can easily tell you why football lends itself to more concussions than rugby:

Football players are coached to use their heads/helmets as weapons.

And, football players (especially DBs) have degraded their game to a game of "hits" vs. tackling.

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Ive often wondered if football could convert to a rugby 'helmet'. Rather than tell players and penalize them for not leading with their head the lack of a helmet will force the idea.

82gradDLSdad said:

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TomBear said:

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Neither is wrestling, soccer, ice hockey or roller derby, lol.

As a former rugger who has had at least one concussion (possibly more I don't know about), I can easily tell you why football lends itself to more concussions than rugby:

Football players are coached to use their heads/helmets as weapons.

And, football players (especially DBs) have degraded their game to a game of "hits" vs. tackling.

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Ive often wondered if football could convert to a rugby 'helmet'. Rather than tell players and penalize them for not leading with their head the lack of a helmet will force the idea.

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Would your suggestion also eliminate face masks?

01Bear said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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TomBear said:

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Neither is wrestling, soccer, ice hockey or roller derby, lol.

As a former rugger who has had at least one concussion (possibly more I don't know about), I can easily tell you why football lends itself to more concussions than rugby:

Football players are coached to use their heads/helmets as weapons.

And, football players (especially DBs) have degraded their game to a game of "hits" vs. tackling.

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Ive often wondered if football could convert to a rugby 'helmet'. Rather than tell players and penalize them for not leading with their head the lack of a helmet will force the idea.

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Would your suggestion also eliminate face masks?

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Yes. No pretty boys would want to play football. You'd get a lot of banged up faces and broken noses from incidental contact but I think you'd avoid a lot of serious head trauma. I don't know. Humans are always going to do dangerous things for the love of the activity or the thought of fame and fortune (or girls :-)). Heck, I rode my bike on roads (not trails or bike paths) across the country because it sounded like a cool challenge. I look back on it now and think it was crazy. Cars went by me all day long.

Nation's Top High School Teams 2025:

https://www.maxpreps.com/football/rankings/1/

California well represented.

calumnus said:

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Nation's Top High School Teams 2025:

https://www.maxpreps.com/football/rankings/1/

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Bosco, Mater Dei and others in SoCal just ramped up the recruiting (?) shortly after the 1999 season when DLS and Mater Dei played at UOP in one of the first games between SoCal and NoCal powers. DLS was at their height and unexpectedly clobbered MD. Shortly after it seemed like Bosco and MD took turns building entire highschool teams full of D1 talent. The resulting teams could probably beat a lot of JCs.