concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
ac_green33 said:concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
What, do you expect him to just call a press conference in the middle of preparing for the CFP and say "sorry Cal fans for something that happened 13 years ago"? You guys are ridiculous
concordtom said:ac_green33 said:concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
What, do you expect him to just call a press conference in the middle of preparing for the CFP and say "sorry Cal fans for something that happened 13 years ago"? You guys are ridiculous
Would I hope for Trump to take a moment to promise he'll never again try a coup d'etat? Yes, that would be nice!
ac_green33 said:concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
What, do you expect him to just call a press conference in the middle of preparing for the CFP and say "sorry Cal fans for something that happened 13 years ago"? You guys are ridiculous
OnlyBearFans said:DoubtfulBear said:OnlyBearFans said:OldenBear said:"Winning is not everything; it is far better to play the game squarely and lose than to win at the sacrifice of an ideal."
Any organization that overlooks a candidate's moral or character fitness just to chase wins is setting itself up for serious trouble later.
Yea totally, that must be why top programs are throwing tens of millions of dollars at Lane Kiffin, the paragon of virtue in CFB?
You're actually reinforcing my point, not refuting it.
01Bear said:concernedparent said:01Bear said:BearlyCareAnymore said:01Bear said:BearlyCareAnymore said:JimSox said:OldenBear said:"Winning is not everything; it is far better to play the game squarely and lose than to win at the sacrifice of an ideal."
Damn. I was going to post that. You beat me to it!
Guys, Andy Smith was a great coach in the 20's when we were playing Olympic Club, Military bases and Native American tribes and that quote is very apt for the spirit of amateur competition. But if I have to hear that quote one more time from anyone from Cal in an attempt to put our losing for 65 years on a pedestal, my head will explode. It is a great motto to put on the Andy Smith bench or on a plaque or statue, but it cannot be the motto of professional sports program.
Winning by playing by the actual rules instead of ones you make up for yourself is the ideal.
Making up rules, like not paying athletes in paper bags or coffee cups?
I'm not talking about Tosh. I'm talking about quote that has dogged this program for decades.
And no. Those are/were actual rules
Yes, those were rules that Tosh is alleged to have violated.
But let's say he didn't. Let's say all he did was take Cal's money and recruiting trip to visit a recruit and tell that recruit bot to go to Cal. There's no rule against that, right? But we'd all agree it unethical and shows a lack of self-discipline.
One of the biggest problems with Wilcox's teams was the number of penalties they accrued each game. Wilcox never figured out a way to fix that. Simply put, he couldn't. As Tosh supporters keep telling us, Wilcox was behind Tosh's betrayal. That means Wilcox lacks a moral compass, which means he'd lack the self-discipline necessary not to violate rules. Since he lacked self-discipline, he couldn't teach it to his charges.
Tosh, as the one who actually committed the unethical betrayal, also exhibited a lack of ethics. This shows he, too, lacks self-discipline. Without that, how can he be expected to teach Cal's players to maintain self-discipline and not rack up silly penalties that kill drives and ultimately cost games?
Morality being causally related to false starts is certainly a take.
If you can't see how self-discipline and self-control are linked, or how they're linked to a code of ethics, then I can't help you.
BearlyCareAnymore said:OnlyBearFans said:DoubtfulBear said:OnlyBearFans said:OldenBear said:"Winning is not everything; it is far better to play the game squarely and lose than to win at the sacrifice of an ideal."
Any organization that overlooks a candidate's moral or character fitness just to chase wins is setting itself up for serious trouble later.
Yea totally, that must be why top programs are throwing tens of millions of dollars at Lane Kiffin, the paragon of virtue in CFB?
You're actually reinforcing my point, not refuting it.
Here is the issue. Moral and character fitness are important qualities in any job. However, that moral and character fitness is defined in the context of the job. Tosh has been accused of several things, some proven and some not. If those things go beyond what you think is moral and character fitness for head football coach, I'm cool with that. My concern, not with Tosh, but with this line of reasoning in general is all of my life it has been an excuse that other's do nasty wasty things in revenue sports and we don't and that is why we suck. First of all, it's not true. We've gotten caught breaking rules plenty of times to the point where it is clear we suck at cheating. Second of all, if everyone else is following one set of rules, thems the rules. If you want to participate in revenue sports, you play by the rules, written and unwritten of revenue sports. If you think it's a dirty business, and I'm highly sympathetic if one does, then don't participate. Don't participate in a dirty game, lose, and then tut tut at those who win. If we want to compete in pig wrasslin', then wrassle the damned pig.
I'll lay my cards on the table. Purely as a coach, Tosh doesn't really float my boat as a candidate. (pun absolutely intended). But I don't know anything the eff about picking a football coach, so who cares? I don't need to like the choice when its announced. I need to like it a year, two years, five years from now. When it comes to the stuff he's been accused of, it is mostly minor bullshyte in the college world including what he did to us. The biggest issue is that when he was young he kept getting caught doing stupid shyte because he didn't seem to understand how not to get caught or how to stay withing the lines doing what frankly everyone was doing. For instance, with Thompson, had he just called him a couple days later when he was on UW's payroll and said all the same shyte, he was fine. It was amateur hour. I'm sure he has been doing the same shyte in the 6 or 7 years since anyone has accused him of anything because everybody does that shyte. He just understands how it is done now.
That said, again laying my cards on the table. I don't trust the guy. Some of that is what he has done. Some of that is plain ol' vibes. Some of that is a lot of obvious bullshyte that has been posted here that seems to be originating from his camp that is uniform in the theme that he loves Cal and Cal keeps screwing him and he is our savior if only Cal weren't so stupid that they can't see that. I don't see the Cal love in actions.
But again, I don't need to trust him. It's a business transaction and I assume he (and Cal) will act in naked self interest because that is how this game works. That is why it is so effing naive of Cal alums to give Wilcox 9 years of chances just "to be fair" or get ticked off because Tedford closed practices, or champion Holmoe because he is such a nice and moral man and when he succeeds it will be "the right way". It is also naive to just think that JKS loves Cal so won't transfer and it is really naive to think Tosh, or Desean, or anyone else, is going to stay if they succeed and get better offers to move up unless Cal steps up and matches. Or for goodness sake, STOP WITH THE "THE COACH SHOULD LEAVE VOLUNTARILY AND NOT TAKE HIS BUYOUT" - absolutely no one else thinks this.
Even Rivera did not give us a discount when it came to salary. That is not how this works. It is time to get serious and hire the best damned coach you can afford no matter where they come from and realize no one is going to give you a discount or come or stay because it is their "dream job" and they love Cal so well.
I truly do not care if the coach loves Cal. Not one bit. I don't care if they make me feel like we are competing on an ideal. I just want them to be competent and follow the actual rules and be no more or less saintlike than anyone else who engages in this endeavor.
BearlyCareAnymore said:OnlyBearFans said:DoubtfulBear said:OnlyBearFans said:OldenBear said:"Winning is not everything; it is far better to play the game squarely and lose than to win at the sacrifice of an ideal."
Any organization that overlooks a candidate's moral or character fitness just to chase wins is setting itself up for serious trouble later.
Yea totally, that must be why top programs are throwing tens of millions of dollars at Lane Kiffin, the paragon of virtue in CFB?
You're actually reinforcing my point, not refuting it.
Here is the issue. Moral and character fitness are important qualities in any job. However, that moral and character fitness is defined in the context of the job. Tosh has been accused of several things, some proven and some not. If those things go beyond what you think is moral and character fitness for head football coach, I'm cool with that. My concern, not with Tosh, but with this line of reasoning in general is all of my life it has been an excuse that other's do nasty wasty things in revenue sports and we don't and that is why we suck. First of all, it's not true. We've gotten caught breaking rules plenty of times to the point where it is clear we suck at cheating. Second of all, if everyone else is following one set of rules, thems the rules. If you want to participate in revenue sports, you play by the rules, written and unwritten of revenue sports. If you think it's a dirty business, and I'm highly sympathetic if one does, then don't participate. Don't participate in a dirty game, lose, and then tut tut at those who win. If we want to compete in pig wrasslin', then wrassle the damned pig.
I'll lay my cards on the table. Purely as a coach, Tosh doesn't really float my boat as a candidate. (pun absolutely intended). But I don't know anything the eff about picking a football coach, so who cares? I don't need to like the choice when its announced. I need to like it a year, two years, five years from now. When it comes to the stuff he's been accused of, it is mostly minor bullshyte in the college world including what he did to us. The biggest issue is that when he was young he kept getting caught doing stupid shyte because he didn't seem to understand how not to get caught or how to stay withing the lines doing what frankly everyone was doing. For instance, with Thompson, had he just called him a couple days later when he was on UW's payroll and said all the same shyte, he was fine. It was amateur hour. I'm sure he has been doing the same shyte in the 6 or 7 years since anyone has accused him of anything because everybody does that shyte. He just understands how it is done now.
That said, again laying my cards on the table. I don't trust the guy. Some of that is what he has done. Some of that is plain ol' vibes. Some of that is a lot of obvious bullshyte that has been posted here that seems to be originating from his camp that is uniform in the theme that he loves Cal and Cal keeps screwing him and he is our savior if only Cal weren't so stupid that they can't see that. I don't see the Cal love in actions.
But again, I don't need to trust him. It's a business transaction and I assume he (and Cal) will act in naked self interest because that is how this game works. That is why it is so effing naive of Cal alums to give Wilcox 9 years of chances just "to be fair" or get ticked off because Tedford closed practices, or champion Holmoe because he is such a nice and moral man and when he succeeds it will be "the right way". It is also naive to just think that JKS loves Cal so won't transfer and it is really naive to think Tosh, or Desean, or anyone else, is going to stay if they succeed and get better offers to move up unless Cal steps up and matches. Or for goodness sake, STOP WITH THE "THE COACH SHOULD LEAVE VOLUNTARILY AND NOT TAKE HIS BUYOUT" - absolutely no one else thinks this.
Even Rivera did not give us a discount when it came to salary. That is not how this works. It is time to get serious and hire the best damned coach you can afford no matter where they come from and realize no one is going to give you a discount or come or stay because it is their "dream job" and they love Cal so well.
I truly do not care if the coach loves Cal. Not one bit. I don't care if they make me feel like we are competing on an ideal. I just want them to be competent and follow the actual rules and be no more or less saintlike than anyone else who engages in this endeavor.
concernedparent said:01Bear said:concernedparent said:01Bear said:BearlyCareAnymore said:01Bear said:BearlyCareAnymore said:JimSox said:OldenBear said:"Winning is not everything; it is far better to play the game squarely and lose than to win at the sacrifice of an ideal."
Damn. I was going to post that. You beat me to it!
Guys, Andy Smith was a great coach in the 20's when we were playing Olympic Club, Military bases and Native American tribes and that quote is very apt for the spirit of amateur competition. But if I have to hear that quote one more time from anyone from Cal in an attempt to put our losing for 65 years on a pedestal, my head will explode. It is a great motto to put on the Andy Smith bench or on a plaque or statue, but it cannot be the motto of professional sports program.
Winning by playing by the actual rules instead of ones you make up for yourself is the ideal.
Making up rules, like not paying athletes in paper bags or coffee cups?
I'm not talking about Tosh. I'm talking about quote that has dogged this program for decades.
And no. Those are/were actual rules
Yes, those were rules that Tosh is alleged to have violated.
But let's say he didn't. Let's say all he did was take Cal's money and recruiting trip to visit a recruit and tell that recruit bot to go to Cal. There's no rule against that, right? But we'd all agree it unethical and shows a lack of self-discipline.
One of the biggest problems with Wilcox's teams was the number of penalties they accrued each game. Wilcox never figured out a way to fix that. Simply put, he couldn't. As Tosh supporters keep telling us, Wilcox was behind Tosh's betrayal. That means Wilcox lacks a moral compass, which means he'd lack the self-discipline necessary not to violate rules. Since he lacked self-discipline, he couldn't teach it to his charges.
Tosh, as the one who actually committed the unethical betrayal, also exhibited a lack of ethics. This shows he, too, lacks self-discipline. Without that, how can he be expected to teach Cal's players to maintain self-discipline and not rack up silly penalties that kill drives and ultimately cost games?
Morality being causally related to false starts is certainly a take.
If you can't see how self-discipline and self-control are linked, or how they're linked to a code of ethics, then I can't help you.
Cal teams during Wilcox's tenure have been anywhere from the top quarter to the bottom quarter in CFB for penalty yardage. Was he ethical in '18, '19 '22 and unethical in '21 '24, '25?
Big C said:concordtom said:ac_green33 said:concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
What, do you expect him to just call a press conference in the middle of preparing for the CFP and say "sorry Cal fans for something that happened 13 years ago"? You guys are ridiculous
Would I hope for Trump to take a moment to promise he'll never again try a coup d'etat? Yes, that would be nice!
You just can't resist, can you?
BearlyCareAnymore said:
I truly do not care if the coach loves Cal. Not one bit. I don't care if they make me feel like we are competing on an ideal. I just want them to be competent and follow the actual rules and be no more or less saintlike than anyone else who engages in this endeavor.
okaydo said:
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/EJA551
ac_green33 said:concordtom said:
Yea or Nay?
4th Gen said Tosh CAN and WILL deliver his sincere mea culpa apology or explanation.
Well, I have yet to here it.
What, do you expect him to just call a press conference in the middle of preparing for the CFP and say "sorry Cal fans for something that happened 13 years ago"? You guys are ridiculous
