sycasey said:

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Oakbear said:

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Someone noted that tosh at 44 would be 1 of the older coaches starting at Cal it does make me sort of wonder if tosh is really that good why has he not already been a head coach Just speculating

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This seems like a non-issue to me. 44 is not "old" for a head coach. Bruce Snyder was 47 when he started at Cal.

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Bruce had been a head coach at Utah State prior to his 4 year stint with the Rams as RB coach with John Robinson.

Hail2Calif said:

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Based on your reasoning, Georgia shouldn't have hired Smart, since he was just a DC under defensive guru Nick Saban - everyone knows Smart just ran Saban's D

Oregon then wiffed hiring Lanning, since he was just a DC under Smart and everyone knows Lanning just ran Smart's D

Yeah, no chance to improve if we hire a DC from a defensive minded HC - who would do something like that?

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I didn't say "don't" I just said it needs to be investigated and not taken at face value. A lot depends on how much leeway a HC who is a former DC gives his DC or s HC who is a former OC gives his OC. Some HCs are control freaks. Some are CEOs that delegate.
As I said with Tosh, his organizational acumen is an open question. However, as I said with Desean, if Rivera is the GM and he is going to be actively involved in the football organization and mentor Tosh, that is not as big of a concern.

BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

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It happens sometimes, but usually it's because that assistant coach has been around for a while with a long track record of success. It's not going to happen with a guy who was only around for one year.

Again, I think there are good arguments against Tosh but this one is weak.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

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It happens sometimes, but usually it's because that assistant coach has been around for a while with a long track record of success. It's not going to happen with a guy who was only around for one year.

Again, I think there are good arguments against Tosh but this one is weak.

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The incoming HC would be able to asses the performance of the assistants from the previous administration and decide whether to retain them based on that performance. an assistant who has only been there for one year but performed well would certainly be a candidate for the next staff. Every staff has its better performing assistants, and Tosh was not one of them, three years in a row.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

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It happens sometimes, but usually it's because that assistant coach has been around for a while with a long track record of success. It's not going to happen with a guy who was only around for one year.

Again, I think there are good arguments against Tosh but this one is weak.

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The incoming HC would be able to asses the performance of the assistants from the previous administration and decide whether to retain them based on that performance. an assistant who has only been there for one year but performed well would certainly be a candidate for the next staff. Every staff has its better performing assistants, and Tosh was not one of them, three years in a row.

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Again, I think this argument is weak and I would suggest that those who don't want Tosh move on to something else.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

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It happens sometimes, but usually it's because that assistant coach has been around for a while with a long track record of success. It's not going to happen with a guy who was only around for one year.

Again, I think there are good arguments against Tosh but this one is weak.

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The incoming HC would be able to asses the performance of the assistants from the previous administration and decide whether to retain them based on that performance. an assistant who has only been there for one year but performed well would certainly be a candidate for the next staff. Every staff has its better performing assistants, and Tosh was not one of them, three years in a row.

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Maybe he didn't want to stay? Maybe he didn't like the new coach or the new scheme? Maybe he already had another option that he felt was better? Your reasoning here feels very speculative. Could it be a sign of something related to his coaching, yes. Could it be a sign of something else, also yes.

In the absence of the HC getting canned I would find it VERY alarming. But given situation I think its exactly what I would expect.

Yeah maybe he should have picked better horses for the race. Ok...maybe. But also there are only 32 of these jobs on the planet. Sometimes you just take what is available if your dream is to be a NFL coach.

BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. . . .

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills

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You just hired Justin Wilcox.

DoubtfulBear said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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I would rather have a CEO head coach that hires strong coordinators than one who needs to micromanage the play calling

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You're not hiring a CEO with Tosh, you're hiring a salesman.

Cal88 said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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I would rather have a CEO head coach that hires strong coordinators than one who needs to micromanage the play calling

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You're not hiring a CEO with Tosh, you're hiring a salesman.

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the best CEOs are also salesmen. What evidence do you have that he doesn't have the ability to hire quality staff?

Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. . . .

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills

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You just hired Justin Wilcox.

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More like Tedford's fundamentals than Wilcox. A Tedford coached running back doesn't fumble the ball because he's carrying in on the inside like Raphael did Saturday, and a Tedford coached OL doesn't have 5 false starts in a game. Wilcox coached teams lack fundamentals at nearly every phase of the game except at LB and DB.

Attention to detail is also part of the fundamentals, Wilcox lacked that. He also lacks leadership skills.

Wilcox is a great DB/LB coach, a decent defensive coordinator, but lacks many of the main fundamental skills that make a good head coach. So does Tosh. If he doesn't put together the right staff at Cal, he will fare no better than Wilcox.

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Nah, you're thinking of Wilcox in 2025, whose head coaching record disappointed you. (For good reason.) Think of Wilcox at the time he was hired by Cal, a well-regarded defensive coach who, for that matter, would still be in demand as a power-conference defensive coordinator today if he ends up seeking one of those jobs.

That's the coach you described in your previous comment.

Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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There is a lot of debate about his morals, but I think Tosh is a relatively smart guy in a profession filled with guys that just aren't very smart (though very knowledgeable about football). Definitely comes across as smarter than guys like Justin Wilcox and Nick Rolovich, even Jeff Tedford.

He was All PAC-10 Academic at Cal. He is savvy, was always a step ahead of the NCAA in using technology, first texting then XBox, to communicate with recruits more than was permitted under the rules.

Even though Lupoi is Italian, he has let people assume his name and LDS religious affiliation (his dad even played at BYU) means he is Polynesian in order to recruit Polynesian kids. He is always looking for an edge. He is a California kid who relates well to different kinds of people which is why he is a good recruiter and has gotten a lot of good jobs with top coaches at top programs (but doesn't stay long). He definitely seems like the guy that is a great salesman who has worked at every company in his industry, pitching himself as effectively as he pitches his latest product.

I don't know if he is leadership material, and his football knowledge may be lacking relative to others, but I don't doubt his intelligence (again, relative to his profession).

Alkiadt said:

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Cal88 said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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I would rather have a CEO head coach that hires strong coordinators than one who needs to micromanage the play calling

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You're not hiring a CEO with Tosh, you're hiring a salesman.

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I see Dan Lanning, Lane Kiffin, Kirby Smart, James Franklin and even Curt Cignetti as very much salesmen of their programs.

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Kiffin and Franklin do fit the bill.

Cignetti not so much, and he is the complete package in terms of coaching fundamentals and skills, his product on the field is what sells his program, a program he had built from the ground up. He didn't land Mendoza through his salesmanship, the results of his program spoke for themselves.

Lanning knows his football, and was very good at identifying and hiring one of the top football young minds in college football, Will Stein, who at the time was a 32yo with only 3 years of college coaching experience in a second rate conference.

calumnus said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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There is a lot of debate about his morals, but I think Tosh is a relatively smart guy in a profession filled with guys that just aren't very smart (though very knowledgeable about football). Definitely comes across as smarter than guys like Justin Wilcox and Nick Rolovich, even Jeff Tedford.

He was All PAC-10 Academic at Cal. He is savvy, was always a step ahead of the NCAA in using technology, first texting then XBox, to communicate with recruits more than was permitted under the rules.

Even though Lupoi is Italian, he has let people assume his name and LDS religious affiliation (his dad even played at BYU) means he is Polynesian in order to recruit Polynesian kids. He is always looking for an edge. He is a California kid who relates well to different kinds of people which is why he is a good recruiter and has gotten a lot of good jobs with top coaches at top programs (but doesn't stay long). He definitely seems like the guy that is a great salesman who has worked at every company in his industry, pitching himself as effectively as he pitches his latest product.

I don't know if he is leadership material, and his football knowledge may be lacking relative to others, but I don't doubt his intelligence (again, relative to his profession).

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He wasn't smart enough at running defenses and adjusting for Saban to retain him. Granted that's a high bar, but still.

He is indeed good at pitching his product, but as a head coach, he has to build the product.

Cal88 said:

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calumnus said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

---

Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

---

There is a lot of debate about his morals, but I think Tosh is a relatively smart guy in a profession filled with guys that just aren't very smart (though very knowledgeable about football). Definitely comes across as smarter than guys like Justin Wilcox and Nick Rolovich, even Jeff Tedford.

He was All PAC-10 Academic at Cal. He is savvy, was always a step ahead of the NCAA in using technology, first texting then XBox, to communicate with recruits more than was permitted under the rules.

Even though Lupoi is Italian, he has let people assume his name and LDS religious affiliation (his dad even played at BYU) means he is Polynesian in order to recruit Polynesian kids. He is always looking for an edge. He is a California kid who relates well to different kinds of people which is why he is a good recruiter and has gotten a lot of good jobs with top coaches at top programs (but doesn't stay long). He definitely seems like the guy that is a great salesman who has worked at every company in his industry, pitching himself as effectively as he pitches his latest product.

I don't know if he is leadership material, and his football knowledge may be lacking relative to others, but I don't doubt his intelligence (again, relative to his profession).

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He wasn't smart enough at running defenses and adjusting for Saban to retain him. Granted that's a high bar, but still.

He is indeed good at pitching his product, but as a head coach, he has to build the product.

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It is not a very high bar at Alabama when you have top talent.

calpoly said:

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Cal88 said:

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calumnus said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

---

There is a lot of debate about his morals, but I think Tosh is a relatively smart guy in a profession filled with guys that just aren't very smart (though very knowledgeable about football). Definitely comes across as smarter than guys like Justin Wilcox and Nick Rolovich, even Jeff Tedford.

He was All PAC-10 Academic at Cal. He is savvy, was always a step ahead of the NCAA in using technology, first texting then XBox, to communicate with recruits more than was permitted under the rules.

Even though Lupoi is Italian, he has let people assume his name and LDS religious affiliation (his dad even played at BYU) means he is Polynesian in order to recruit Polynesian kids. He is always looking for an edge. He is a California kid who relates well to different kinds of people which is why he is a good recruiter and has gotten a lot of good jobs with top coaches at top programs (but doesn't stay long). He definitely seems like the guy that is a great salesman who has worked at every company in his industry, pitching himself as effectively as he pitches his latest product.

I don't know if he is leadership material, and his football knowledge may be lacking relative to others, but I don't doubt his intelligence (again, relative to his profession).

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He wasn't smart enough at running defenses and adjusting for Saban to retain him. Granted that's a high bar, but still.

He is indeed good at pitching his product, but as a head coach, he has to build the product.

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It is not a very high bar at Alabama when you have top talent.

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Yes indeed and Alabama had stellar talent especially at DL in good part to Tosh's recruiting. But for Saban, Tosh's liability as a gameday defensive coordinator ended up outweighing his benefit as a top recruiter.

One issue with recruiting is the aspect of identifying and evaluating talent, which is nearly as important as being able to land blue chips for which everyone is competing, especially in the portal era. I don't know if Tosh has had a good record at that, perhaps Ducktilldeath or others can chime in.

Cal88 said:

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calpoly said:

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Cal88 said:

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calumnus said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. The problem with Tosh and the last 10+ years coaching college football is that he has been in very, very successful programs where his main contribution was in recruiting. I'm sure we would have been very successful with Tosh if he has people like Saban, Lanning or Will Stein handling every other part of the program.

The one time Tosh was in charge of running the defense at Alabama, they got outcoached and destroyed by Clemson and handed Saban his worst loss to date. That's why Saban let him go.

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills, and if he's not a great recruiter, expect him to add some coordinators and assistants who are good recruiters to cover the slack.

Tosh doesn't strike me as a very bright guy, or someone who has the broader skill set of a good CEO, he is a top salesman.

He reminds me of Ed Orgeron, another former DL/position coach who is a top recruiter with average coaching skills, 33-38 record as a head coach in the SEC.

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There is a lot of debate about his morals, but I think Tosh is a relatively smart guy in a profession filled with guys that just aren't very smart (though very knowledgeable about football). Definitely comes across as smarter than guys like Justin Wilcox and Nick Rolovich, even Jeff Tedford.

He was All PAC-10 Academic at Cal. He is savvy, was always a step ahead of the NCAA in using technology, first texting then XBox, to communicate with recruits more than was permitted under the rules.

Even though Lupoi is Italian, he has let people assume his name and LDS religious affiliation (his dad even played at BYU) means he is Polynesian in order to recruit Polynesian kids. He is always looking for an edge. He is a California kid who relates well to different kinds of people which is why he is a good recruiter and has gotten a lot of good jobs with top coaches at top programs (but doesn't stay long). He definitely seems like the guy that is a great salesman who has worked at every company in his industry, pitching himself as effectively as he pitches his latest product.

I don't know if he is leadership material, and his football knowledge may be lacking relative to others, but I don't doubt his intelligence (again, relative to his profession).

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He wasn't smart enough at running defenses and adjusting for Saban to retain him. Granted that's a high bar, but still.

He is indeed good at pitching his product, but as a head coach, he has to build the product.

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It is not a very high bar at Alabama when you have top talent.

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Yes indeed and Alabama had stellar talent especially at DL in good part to Tosh's recruiting. But for Saban, Tosh's liability as a gameday defensive coordinator ended up outweighing his benefit as a top recruiter.

One issue with recruiting is the aspect of identifying and evaluating talent, which is nearly as important as being able to land blue chips for which everyone is competing, especially in the portal era. I don't know if Tosh has had a good record at that, perhaps Ducktilldeath or others can chime in.

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If you are at Alabama or Oregon you cannot go wrong with just bringing in the top rated talent and then having them compete to determine who deserved their top rating and who might have been overrated. No need to overthink it. Especially on the DL which is 90% getting the guys with size, strength, speed and freaky athleticism that is obvious to everyone.

However, at a place like Cal, especially with the NIL disadvantage we will have now under the House Settlement, recruiting needs to be more "moneyball": ie finding the underrated recruits, leveraging our comparative advantages like academics, location, social activism, to get top recruits we couldn't get otherwise. Two of our best QBs, Rodgers and Mendoza, were overlooked. Goff was top rated but was local and a double Cal legacy. In basketball, McDonald's All American Shareef Adbur-Rahim came from Georgia because Bozeman sold him on our top rated Near Eastern Studies/Islamic Studies department, while Jaylen Brown also came from Georgia because Cuonzo Martin sold him on Berkeley's history of social activism, role in the Civil Rights movement and the overthrow of Apartheid in South Africa (and he specifically wanted to play for a Black coach). Other top recruits like Jason Kidd, Leon Powe and Marshawn Lynch came because we are the local school and their pride in Oakland and the East Bay.

I do think Tosh is a smart recruiter and can leverage Cal's advantages as he did before. I do think there are others who can too, maybe even better, but being a Cal alum who really loves the place is a huge advantage in selling the place. It is true that last time with Tosh too many of his recruits were not cutting it in the classroom. I would hope he is smart enough to make sure that doesn't happen again. That will also be part of Rivera's responsibility as GM.

Golden One said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. . . .

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills

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You just hired Justin Wilcox.

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Come on. Wilcox has zero fundamendal coaching skills. He conclusively proved that in 9 years as head coach at Cal.

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You didn't know that 9 years ago. All you knew was his resume as a coordinator, just like any candidate today who has been a coordinator but never a head coach.

BearSD said:

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Golden One said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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BearSD said:

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Cal88 said:

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After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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Not sure why you think this is an argument against him. Cal football desperately needs vastly better recruiting, if it is ever going to break out of the 5-to-7 wins a year rut. If it's not Tosh, it dam well better be someone else whose staff will recruit as well as Tosh has.

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Better recruiting is good to have, but not the main skill I would look for in a HC. . . .

Typically, you hire a head coach based on his fundamental coaching skills

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You just hired Justin Wilcox.

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Come on. Wilcox has zero fundamendal coaching skills. He conclusively proved that in 9 years as head coach at Cal.

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You didn't know that 9 years ago. All you knew was his resume as a coordinator, just like any candidate today who has been a coordinator but never a head coach.

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Frankly, Wilcox's resume as a defensive coordinator was not that great. We just had a dumbazz AD who hired him.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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BearoutEast67 said:

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Tosh was a terrible DL coach for the Jaguars (3-14) in 2021. Their DL was like a sieve, letting Trevor Lawrence get beat up each game. He has been a one-year hire in multiple sites, which smells like trouble.

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As has been noted, the reason he was a one-year guy as an NFL position coach so often was because the head coach who hired him got fired every time. Maybe some of that is his fault, but more likely it's just the normal staff turnover that happens in that situation. I doubt the DL coach has that much impact on the whole team's record.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments for not hiring Tosh, but "his DL couldn't protect the QB" is not a good one.

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You would think he could have been retained at least once out of the three times the HC was replaced, it's not uncommon for a HC to retain the better elements in a previous staff.

After 3 years of jumping around in the NFL, Tosh realized that his main football skill, recruiting, is confined to college ball.

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What kind of logic is this? He got hired by another NFL team the first two times and then was off to Oregon.

just a little reminder of how things used to be