DoubtfulBear said:

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freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

If Tosh gets us to the playoffs and bails, I wouldn't be one bit pissed off. Better to have a great coach that is worthy of getting poached than a trash coach that accomplished nothing for a decade

---

You will be upset just like Ole Miss fans are upset that Kiffin has left. This is predictable, natural reaction.

freshfunk said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

---

freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

If Tosh gets us to the playoffs and bails, I wouldn't be one bit pissed off. Better to have a great coach that is worthy of getting poached than a trash coach that accomplished nothing for a decade

---

You will be upset just like Ole Miss fans are upset that Kiffin has left. This is predictable, natural reaction.

---

Not all Ole Miss fans are upset, the ones that are tend to be more vocal. If I was an Ole Miss fan, I would appreciate being one score away from 12-0 rather than complain about Kiffin leaving

Definitely thinking about going to the LSU @ Ole Miss game next year.

Anarchistbear said:

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Definitely thinking about going to the LSU @ Ole Miss game next year.

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Everybody loves to rip Lane Kiffin despite the factors that affected how he had to make and time his decision, yet the theatrics that it generates are irresistible

DoubtfulBear said:

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freshfunk said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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freshfunk said:

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People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

If Tosh gets us to the playoffs and bails, I wouldn't be one bit pissed off. Better to have a great coach that is worthy of getting poached than a trash coach that accomplished nothing for a decade

---

You will be upset just like Ole Miss fans are upset that Kiffin has left. This is predictable, natural reaction.

---

Not all Ole Miss fans are upset, the ones that are tend to be more vocal. If I was an Ole Miss fan, I would appreciate being one score away from 12-0 rather than complain about Kiffin leaving

---

You're saying this from the perspective of a Cal fan who has a middling program for the last 20 years. This is why we have users named "RoseBowlB4IDie." That's just indicative of this fan base.

Just look at how people reacted when Mendoza left. He did what's best for himself. Most fans were upset that he bailed -- they weren't so grateful what he did for us. We felt betrayed just like Ole Miss fans feel despite Kiffin's work in bringing them national prominence in 6 years.

Tosh himself earned a bunch of ire for leaving us despite what he did for the program. Sure, people will say it was HOW he did it but honestly, that's just cope when the hot girl dumps you.

It's the Curse of More. Today, we're fighting for relevance and we're fighting to maintain our program after a near death experience. Once we starting winning, we'll want more. And once we get more, that'll become the baseline expectations. What seems like a gift today becomes a requirement tomorrow.

Why am I harping on this? Because we're doing this to ourselves. I'm not saying we should've kept Wilcox forever but he was fired because of this Curse of More. 7 win season and upsetting 2 ranked teams? Not good enough. For years we paid the guy middle to bottom tier, had mid to lower tier budgets for asst staff, middling NIL and yet we expect an top tier results. Then, we complain that he's only brought us a middling program for 9 years. You get what you pay for! But Wilcox was a good guy who could've chased More at Oregon when the chance game but he was one of those rare guys who actually still cares about a program.

Now, it seems, we're ready to pay top dollar but it's an arms race that we have to keep up as we continue to chase for More.

I think its a mistake thinking we can keep up in an "arms race". That ship is gone. We're not competing with the top 25 in the AP poll, let alone the CFP. Or even the ACC.

Wilcox was a fitting breed of mediocrity at Cal that is often accepted with its athletic programs. Do just enough and we can continue on. Hit a few lucky seasons here and there, and our name gets some recognition. Wilcox succeeded on that. He wasn't great. Wasn't bad. He was just - ok. Not sure where it goes from here but we're not competing in an arms race.

philly1121 said:

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Wilcox was a fitting breed of mediocrity at Cal that is often accepted with its athletic programs. Do just enough and we can continue on. Hit a few lucky seasons here and there, and our name gets some recognition. Wilcox succeeded on that. He wasn't great. Wasn't bad. He was just - ok. Not sure where it goes from here but we're not competing in an arms race.

---

Wilcox sucked as far as gameday coaching goes and last Saturday we beat a team in playoff contention, we have talent (JKS) and added with some decent coaching (Rolovich plus Tosh or whoever) we can contend, LSU on paper is one most loaded programs in the sport yet got dumped by several programs in 2025 with less at their disposal, and thus fired their coach

philly1121 said:

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I think its a mistake thinking we can keep up in an "arms race". That ship is gone. We're not competing with the top 25 in the AP poll, let alone the CFP. Or even the ACC.

Wilcox was a fitting breed of mediocrity at Cal that is often accepted with its athletic programs. Do just enough and we can continue on. Hit a few lucky seasons here and there, and our name gets some recognition. Wilcox succeeded on that. He wasn't great. Wasn't bad. He was just - ok. Not sure where it goes from here but we're not competing in an arms race.

---

We may not be winning an arms race, but we have been competing for years...

+ renovated CMS and training center that cost hundreds of millions
+ fancy new locker-room (Thanks, AR!)
+ paying HC $5 million, plus more money now for staff... next HC, if successful, will make more
+ charter flights
+ new certificate programs for players with bachelor's diploma from anywhere
+ fairly competitive NIL

If we had been "playing down" for the past 25 years, in sort of an Ivy West type of conference, we wouldn't be doing any of this stuff. As BearlyCareAnymore likes to say, we try to keep up, but we're usually a little behind the curve.

The Powers That Be think we can still compete at a very high level. (8-4 is average record? More time in the Top 25 than not? A conference championship?) I'm certainly down for trying to make this work as long as we can.

freshfunk said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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freshfunk said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

If Tosh gets us to the playoffs and bails, I wouldn't be one bit pissed off. Better to have a great coach that is worthy of getting poached than a trash coach that accomplished nothing for a decade

---

You will be upset just like Ole Miss fans are upset that Kiffin has left. This is predictable, natural reaction.

---

Not all Ole Miss fans are upset, the ones that are tend to be more vocal. If I was an Ole Miss fan, I would appreciate being one score away from 12-0 rather than complain about Kiffin leaving

---

Why am I harping on this? Because we're doing this to ourselves. I'm not saying we should've kept Wilcox forever but he was fired because of this Curse of More. 7 win season and upsetting 2 ranked teams? Not good enough.

---

You can't give Wilcox credit for SMU, that would be like giving DeShaun Foster credit for winning against PSU, MSU, and Maryland. By anyone else's standard Wilcox was an abject failure but because of our absolutely bottom expectations we kept him around for 9 years. Sure Cal doesn't have the resources to compete in the CFP but we certainly had enough resources to be competitive in the ACC. And certainly enough to not get blown out by SDSU, 7-5 Duke, and a terrible Stanford program

HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

Don't count me on the Tosh bandwagon

freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

One of problems with Tosh was him recruiting a 5* candidate for UW while he was still a Cal coach and being paid by Cal and using up one of Cal's Official Visits then immediately signing that 5* to UW.

GivemTheAxe said:

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freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

One of problems with Tosh was him recruiting a 5* candidate for UW while he was still a Cal coach and being paid by Cal and using up one of Cal's Official Visits then immediately signing that 5* to UW.

---

Quick question as it was a long time ago and I don't recall all the details:

Do we think he deliberately used up the Cal visit?

Or was it more of a spur of the moment thing where he hadn't really planned on leaving Cal in the first place. He gave Cal the opportunity to match UW's offer and was told Cal couldn't go any higher. Then Washington responded with an even bigger raise. Is it not possible that during that whirlwind he just happened to be on his way to visit a highly coveted recruit?

It's worth noting that this came at a particularly bad time in Cal's history. Tedford is why most people here post on Cal football message boards. This happened as the Tedford era was coming to an end. Tosh staying wouldn't have saved Tedford but we definitely correlate the two events. Especially since we haven't had any notable success since Tedford left either.

I'm not a Tosh apologist here. He absolutely should have handled this better. But I'm not going to attribute malice where incompetence (or just not thinking about it) is the more likely scenario.

Tosh took a recruit with him. It happens all the time. I think all the nitpicking was a way to rationalize more hate against the guy because we were the sorry guy the hot girl said no to while she ended up going on a date with the guy who had the nicer car.

In terms of arms race, exactly, we've been trying to compete but always behind the curve. I think we've always played ball but played it like a middle tier player. Back in the Pac 12 how would you say our program compared? The top tier competed way harder than us (Washington, Oregon, USC) when it comes to how much money they spent and fan participation. We were on par with the middle tier teams, maybe drifted lower as time went one.

And yet people are expecting 8/9/10 win seasons? Don't get me wrong. Of course I would like that. But this is an arms race and hope is not a strategy.

And then look at what happened last season. OK, maybe Mendoza had a real reason to leave but the whole running back room? How about losing our best receivers to UCLA for something like 3 years in a row? UCLA was willing to pay. So then we hit the portal hard and decry that chemistry is a little off in the passing game when practically all of those guys are playing at Cal and with each other for the first time.

How does this affect us going forward? We have to pay if we want to win. Not just Tosh, not just JKS -- we need good assistants, we need good players around JKS. You can't expect Tosh to recruit (coaches and players) without a budget. Doing so would be penny-wise, pound-foolish.

HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

---

Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

I respect your opinion on this, but the counter-argument is...

Can we forgive Tosh for his transgressions based upon... a) some possible extenuating circumstances at the time ... b) the passage of time and... c) the remorse that he is going to express. For me, the answer is yes... and I'd like to think my position is not based on the number of wins he can get for us, but who knows, I could just be a dreck-spewing load o' trash.

I could care less if Tosh is our next coach. The Vegas guys still have us a middling team for the foreseeable future, we have systemic issues.

If Tosh does become our next coach you can bet your bippies we will have another visit from college game day where Tosh can reunite with his old boss from Alabama.

freshfunk said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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If Tosh gets us to the playoffs and bails, I wouldn't be one bit pissed off. Better to have a great coach that is worthy of getting poached than a trash coach that accomplished nothing for a decade

---

You will be upset just like Ole Miss fans are upset that Kiffin has left. This is predictable, natural reaction.

---

We would ALL be upset if Tosh bails a second time and steals our recruits again.

MrGPAC said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

---

freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

One of problems with Tosh was him recruiting a 5* candidate for UW while he was still a Cal coach and being paid by Cal and using up one of Cal's Official Visits then immediately signing that 5* to UW.

---

Quick question as it was a long time ago and I don't recall all the details:

Do we think he deliberately used up the Cal visit?

Or was it more of a spur of the moment thing where he hadn't really planned on leaving Cal in the first place. He gave Cal the opportunity to match UW's offer and was told Cal couldn't go any higher. Then Washington responded with an even bigger raise. Is it not possible that during that whirlwind he just happened to be on his way to visit a highly coveted recruit?

It's worth noting that this came at a particularly bad time in Cal's history. Tedford is why most people here post on Cal football message boards. This happened as the Tedford era was coming to an end. Tosh staying wouldn't have saved Tedford but we definitely correlate the two events. Especially since we haven't had any notable success since Tedford left either.

I'm not a Tosh apologist here. He absolutely should have handled this better. But I'm not going to attribute malice where incompetence (or just not thinking about it) is the more likely scenario.

---

You don't "accidentally" recruit for your new employer on a Cal official visit. Full stop. Cancel the visit and schedule a visit as an official staff member at UW. You'd have to break your back bending over backwards to pretend it was inadvertent.

HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

DoubtfulBear said:

---

HistoryBear said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

---

How much money should be invested in such an endeavor?

StillNoStanfurdium said:

---

MrGPAC said:

---

GivemTheAxe said:

---

freshfunk said:

---

People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

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One of problems with Tosh was him recruiting a 5* candidate for UW while he was still a Cal coach and being paid by Cal and using up one of Cal's Official Visits then immediately signing that 5* to UW.

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Quick question as it was a long time ago and I don't recall all the details:

Do we think he deliberately used up the Cal visit?

Or was it more of a spur of the moment thing where he hadn't really planned on leaving Cal in the first place. He gave Cal the opportunity to match UW's offer and was told Cal couldn't go any higher. Then Washington responded with an even bigger raise. Is it not possible that during that whirlwind he just happened to be on his way to visit a highly coveted recruit?

It's worth noting that this came at a particularly bad time in Cal's history. Tedford is why most people here post on Cal football message boards. This happened as the Tedford era was coming to an end. Tosh staying wouldn't have saved Tedford but we definitely correlate the two events. Especially since we haven't had any notable success since Tedford left either.

I'm not a Tosh apologist here. He absolutely should have handled this better. But I'm not going to attribute malice where incompetence (or just not thinking about it) is the more likely scenario.

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You don't "accidentally" recruit for your new employer on a Cal official visit. Full stop. Cancel the visit and schedule a visit as an official staff member at UW. You'd have to break your back bending over backwards to pretend it was inadvertent.

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Sometimes, you just have to look out for number one.

concordtom said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

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Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

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Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

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The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

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How much money should be invested in such an endeavor?

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We can already beat ACC contenders with the spend today. All we need is a coach that can ensure the wins are consistent and not one-offs

Big C said:

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philly1121 said:

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I think its a mistake thinking we can keep up in an "arms race". That ship is gone. We're not competing with the top 25 in the AP poll, let alone the CFP. Or even the ACC.

Wilcox was a fitting breed of mediocrity at Cal that is often accepted with its athletic programs. Do just enough and we can continue on. Hit a few lucky seasons here and there, and our name gets some recognition. Wilcox succeeded on that. He wasn't great. Wasn't bad. He was just - ok. Not sure where it goes from here but we're not competing in an arms race.

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We may not be winning an arms race, but we have been competing for years...

+ renovated CMS and training center that cost hundreds of millions
+ fancy new locker-room (Thanks, AR!)
+ paying HC $5 million, plus more money now for staff... next HC, if successful, will make more
+ charter flights
+ new certificate programs for players with bachelor's diploma from anywhere
+ fairly competitive NIL

If we had been "playing down" for the past 25 years, in sort of an Ivy West type of conference, we wouldn't be doing any of this stuff. As BearlyCareAnymore likes to say, we try to keep up, but we're usually a little behind the curve.

The Powers That Be think we can still compete at a very high level. (8-4 is average record? More time in the Top 25 than not? A conference championship?) I'm certainly down for trying to make this work as long as we can.

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Hmm..

Renovated CMS - results in hundreds of millions in debt
Locker room - ok, thanks aaron and Dr. White
$5 million - is that what we are paying our prospective new coach?
Charter flights - this can cost from $12k to $19k depending on the distance and the jet type.
New certificate programs. ?? Why does this even matter? who cares.
Fairly competitive NIL - i'll believe it when i see it

I suppose we're down to about, what, 4 years to try and see if we can take a few countries on the Risk board?

Bobodeluxe said:

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StillNoStanfurdium said:

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MrGPAC said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

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freshfunk said:

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People are making Kiffin out to be the bad guy but this is college football today. It started with all the media money and then programs have become more cutthroat with firing coaches. Add in the money culture around NIL and how quickly and easily players can move from one program to another. It's a culture of no one is owed anything and it's fair to move as quickly as possible to seek the bigger payday for players, programs and coaches.

I get that there's a historic opportunity here with Ole Miss and the CFP, but this is the monster that most everyone in college football has created. They're lashing out at Kiffin for taking a move that serves his best interests. I don't even like Kiffin all that much but I think the guy has become a pariah while everyone looks past the ugliness of the money culture in CFB including how aggressively coaches are fired when they don't perform right away.

On Tosh, don't be surprised if we get left at the altar too. It would be awesome if Tosh came back, turned the program around, and brought us to national prominence.

But Tosh is going to do what's best for Tosh just like Kiffin did what's best for himself.

I'm just reading pipedreams here that "maybe Tosh was young and now has learned" and people taking back calling him a "traitor." He did what's best for himself. He'll come to Cal if it's best for himself. He'll leave Cal when it's best for himself.

And how will that happen? If he's turned us around and made us into a successful program, the best programs around the country will come knocking. And not only will they offer more money than we can but they'll also offer national prominence and reputation and ease of recruiting. This is why Kiffin went to LSU despite Ole Miss matching their comp package.

I'm not sh*t talking Tosh and I'm supportive of him coming back. But this is about survival of the program as quickly as possible. People shouldn't get confused and expect him to be a lifer here, let alone bring in a golden decade of Cal football. I'd assume he'd be here for about 4 years give or take. Either he'll be so successful that he'll get poached or he'll have failed and decided that he can find success elsewhere.

---

One of problems with Tosh was him recruiting a 5* candidate for UW while he was still a Cal coach and being paid by Cal and using up one of Cal's Official Visits then immediately signing that 5* to UW.

---

Quick question as it was a long time ago and I don't recall all the details:

Do we think he deliberately used up the Cal visit?

Or was it more of a spur of the moment thing where he hadn't really planned on leaving Cal in the first place. He gave Cal the opportunity to match UW's offer and was told Cal couldn't go any higher. Then Washington responded with an even bigger raise. Is it not possible that during that whirlwind he just happened to be on his way to visit a highly coveted recruit?

It's worth noting that this came at a particularly bad time in Cal's history. Tedford is why most people here post on Cal football message boards. This happened as the Tedford era was coming to an end. Tosh staying wouldn't have saved Tedford but we definitely correlate the two events. Especially since we haven't had any notable success since Tedford left either.

I'm not a Tosh apologist here. He absolutely should have handled this better. But I'm not going to attribute malice where incompetence (or just not thinking about it) is the more likely scenario.

---

You don't "accidentally" recruit for your new employer on a Cal official visit. Full stop. Cancel the visit and schedule a visit as an official staff member at UW. You'd have to break your back bending over backwards to pretend it was inadvertent.

---

Sometimes, you just have to look out for number one.

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He did that, and took a "number two" on Cal.

lol

DoubtfulBear said:

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> We can already beat ACC contenders with the spend today. All we need is a coach that can ensure the wins are consistent and not one-offs

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yeahbut All is a big ask; fingers crossed.

smh said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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> We can already beat ACC contenders with the spend today. All we need is a coach that can ensure the wins are consistent and not one-offs

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yeahbut All is a big ask; fingers crossed.

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Yes, I'm just saying because all the real negabears with their defeatist attitudes think that we need tens of millions more in NIL to have any hope

yes, we do.

DoubtfulBear said:

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HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

---

Thanks for the non-sequitur! My assertions still stand. Nice try but no cigar.

HistoryBear said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

---

Thanks for the non-sequitur! My assertions still stand. Nice try but no cigar.

---

Let me say, I do think Tosh violated some ethical principles back in 2011, and people should not try to pretend or argue he didn't, but I don't think we are violating any ethical principles in hiring him in 2025.

If anything, forgiveness is among the highest ethical principles. We are giving him a chance for redemption. Let's hope he more than redeems himself.

Go Bears!

calumnus said:

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HistoryBear said:

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DoubtfulBear said:

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HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

---

Thanks for the non-sequitur! My assertions still stand. Nice try but no cigar.

---

Let me say, I do think Tosh violated some ethical principles back in 2011, and people should not try to pretend or argue he didn't, but I don't think we are violating any ethical principles in hiring him in 2025.

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Also recruiting is a whole different beast in 2025, a kid can commit to a school, hit the portal immediately and head to another school and set freshman FBS records...

DoubtfulBear said:

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HistoryBear said:

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philly1121 said:

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GoCal80 said:

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Just wait half a dozen years and half the Ole Miss fans will be eager to hire him back.

---

Just like us with Tosh, right? Nothing but scorn for that guy since 2011 and now some voices on this board think he's the Chosen One.

---

Cal fans and Americans in general want to win so bad that they are willing to sell off their morals, principles, and ethics.

I used to have such a high opinion of Cal fans, but reading all the pro-Tosh dreck on this site makes me wonder if we have a trash fan base.

---

The trash fan base are the ones who defended mediocre Wilcox to the bitter end while we lost an entire generation of Cal fans from disinterest and are on the verge of joining the new MWC.

If Tosh sucks then we should raise the pitchforks but if he can get us back to regularly ranked seasons and 60k fans at Memorial Stadium then only a fool would continue complaining about his past

---

Yes in a way it'd be like reparations, easily calculable. So there's the debt from 2011 of course, plus the vig on the debt for 14 years, minus the gains from keeping JKS and hiring a great OC, . . . , lets see, carry the 9 . . .Tosh dude you owe us a championship and we are square! Lol