From an "ESPN The Magazine" article on Jimmy Clausen:

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In the end, though, it's [Clausen's] performance today, in this conference room, that shows why the 22-year-old QB is one of the most coveted players in his draft class. Even in jeans and after a three-month layoff, Clausen performs the most complex motor skill in all of sports -- the forward pass -- and makes it look easy. "Jimmy is the most natural kid I have ever seen throwing the football," says quarterbacks guru Steve Clarkson, who has mentored, among others, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Leinart.

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Does anyone really think throwing a spiral is the most "complex motor skill" in sports? I think the author's employing a bit of artistic license for the sake of an article about a quarterback, but it made me wonder what action would deserve that title. If golf were a sport I'd say a golf swing. :p

Throwing a curveball (or any breaking pitch) has to be more complex than throwing a football.

sycasey;314977 said:

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Throwing a curveball (or any breaking pitch) has to be more complex than throwing a football.

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I'm thinking that HITTING that curveball might involve even more complexities, as one must react to a moving target.

Back to throwing the football, there's what the ball does when thrown (spiral, velocity, etc.), but there's also how quick the passer can release it and from how high above his head.

I'm bouncing back and forth here, but it's like watching a great baseball hitter, then watching someone with a truly sweet swing, like Will Clark used to have...

Back to Cal football, I was once watching an August practice when Kevin Riley was a true freshman; All the QBs were lined up, throwing deep balls. Riley's motion and what then happened to the ball were BY FAR the "NFL-est" of all the QBs. For whatever that's worth.

sycasey;314977 said:

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Throwing a curveball (or any breaking pitch) has to be more complex than throwing a football.

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however, what if you have only 4-5 seconds to do it and if you don't do it quickly enough you get hit by 230-300 pounds of defensive personnel

one of the things I find boring about baseball is all the time the pitcher takes to deliver his pitch .. good for beer drinking, but pretty damn boring .. and so little pressure on a pitcher .. no interceptions, have a bad throw, as a rule, no problem .. not the same for a QB ..

throwing a football under game conditions is much tougher than throwing a curve in a game conditions

I"m most impressed by hockey players who have phenomenal skill with stick and on skates, which is an entire skill in itself. Golf, meh. Hitting a stationary ball in near silence and getting to walk to the ball with no time limit is not a sport. Skill, yes.

Back on topic, Clausen may have natural ability to throw, but if he has no leadership ability and will alienate teammates, then he will never have an impact. Jeff George had all world ability, but had zero leadership skills.

Oakbear;314999 said:

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throwing a football under game conditions is much tougher than throwing a curve in a game conditions

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Yeah, but all of the "game conditions" stuff is kind of outside of the original question, which had to do with what is the toughest "motor skill." That says to me that it's about the individual skill; the rest of that has to do with the other players on the field (defenders, blockers, etc.).

I dunno hitting a slapshot is much more difficult than throwing a pass. Hockey playes are the msot skileld hand eye guys there are.

All these things mentioned have equal merit to be sure...but I've always been under the impression that hitting a baseball for a decent average of lets say, .300 is the hardest motor skill in sports.... if a QB had a .300 average he'd be selling peanuts at Sea World...oh, and I've played baseball and hockey and hitting a baseball against a good pitcher is much tougher then a slapshot any day of the week and twice on Sundays

GranadaHillsBear;315002 said:

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I"m most impressed by hockey players who have phenomenal skill with stick and on skates, which is an entire skill in itself. Golf, meh. Hitting a stationary ball in near silence and getting to walk to the ball with no time limit is not a sport. Skill, yes.

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Yes, golf isn't a sport, but I think the swing is remarkably complex because you have to shape the entire plane of the swing, from beginning to end, and every part of your body is connected to that swing plane. I feel like you can change the position of your foot 45 degrees and still hit a good slap shot or throw a nice spiral, but if you move your foot and swing a club the ball will head off in the wrong direction. (I say this as a pretty bad golfer who is often surprised by the direction in which the ball goes.)

Oakbear;314999 said:

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however, what if you have only 4-5 seconds to do it and if you don't do it quickly enough you get hit by 230-300 pounds of defensive personnel

one of the things I find boring about baseball is all the time the pitcher takes to deliver his pitch .. good for beer drinking, but pretty damn boring .. and so little pressure on a pitcher .. no interceptions, have a bad throw, as a rule, no problem .. not the same for a QB ..

throwing a football under game conditions is much tougher than throwing a curve in a game conditions

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Oak- Are you kidding me? When you throw a football, there's not a guy on the other side a mere 55' or so away with a bat that can hit a ball harder than he pitches it right at your head. Yep, no pressure!

calbb;315022 said:

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Oak- Are you kidding me? When you throw a football, there's not a guy on the other side a mere 55' or so away with a bat that can hit a ball harder than he pitches it right at your head. Yep, no pressure!

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Really completely different types of pressure.

surewest;315025 said:

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Really completely different types of pressure.

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Agreed. My point is this- I like Oak but my guess is that he doesn't really break down all the different nuances that happen in the middle of a game. Unless you do, you can't appreciate the pressure of 120 pitches or so in a game- pitch by pitch.

"They" say hitting a baseball is the most difficult feat in all of sports

calbb;315034 said:

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Agreed. My point is this- I like Oak but my guess is that he doesn't really break down all the different nuances that happen in the middle of a game. Unless you do, you can't appreciate the pressure of 120 pitches or so in a game- pitch by pitch.

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120 pitches? You mad son. Can't break up pitches without regard to pitchers.

--Correct answer is hitting a baseball from an MLB pitcher.

surewest;315042 said:

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120 pitches? You mad son. Can't break up pitches without regard to pitchers.

--Correct answer is hitting a baseball from an MLB pitcher.

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I think he might have been referencing when a single pitcher might actually throw 120 pitches in a game. You know, in the good ole days

The original question is about "motor skills," so you need to take away things like reflex and and hand-eye coordination, so batting (hitting a baseball) doesn't count.
In that sense, the forward pass is pretty tough. It took me about 5 seconds to learn the proper rotation on a basketball, about 5 days to get the proper rotation on a football.
But I would think throwing a breaking ball is more difficult than the forward pass. I still can't do it (although I've never learned to do it).

UCBerzerkeley;315040 said:

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"They" say hitting a baseball is the most difficult feat in all of sports

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"They" are the Giants hitters. :rollinglaugh:
Hopefully, not this year.

I don't like this whole "motor skills" argument as it is divorced from context. Throwing a football 50 yards while on one knee is a great demonstration of motor skills but still makes Kyle Boller a mediocrity as an NFL QB.

To me the hardest things to do in sport are:

Boxing. Hitting someone in a milli-second while at the same time avoiding being hit. No other sport has so much physical danger associated with offense and defense
Baseball: 0 and 2 vs Rivera with the bases loaded.
Hockey: Requires an amazing skill set of speed, finesse and power. Hockey goalies have to make incredible movements in a forest of guys and sticks.
Gymnastics: the sheer virtuosity of it all.
Wide receivers: catching a ball in the midst of linebackers ready to assasinate you.

I suppose like many here, I've played my fair share of sports as a kid, including many of the aforementioned. From my experiences, with such an appreciation, if I had to pick, I'd say tennis.

Unlike baseball, where the ball originates from a static position (pitcher), and the contact happens at a static position (batter), in tennis, both are dynamic. The focus needed, while running around and playing chess in your head, takes quite a bit of skill. Having pitched, I can assure you that a tennis ball can dance as much as baseball, and then some... Oh, and speed, well above a Nolan Ryan 100 mph fast ball.

One of those conversation that proves......

THERE IS TOO MUCH TIME BETWEEN THE END OF BASKETBALL SEASON AND THE FIRST DAY OF FALL PRACTICE

Hitting the curve. Pole vaulting. Three point shot in competition. Kicking the up-and-under on the run. Hitting the fast pitch softball. Hitting the curve.

Forward pass? If you can grip it, you can rip it. You can make a lousy pass and the WR can still catch it.

Sport with no hand-eye coordination? Soccer

Perhaps the statement was meant to be "completing a forward pass". I don't think throwing a spiral is all that tough but throwing accurately to a moving receiver, possibly through a forest of defenders can be. My inclination ( although I've never played hockey) was to go with a shot executed while skating full out as way more challenging.

I don't agree with the statement that it's the hardest, but I would guess that the writer is factoring in that you're trying to hit a moving target (most of the time). Sure, it's not hard to play catch and throw a spiral. But trying to hit a guy 20 yards away running at full speed across the field, not making him break stride or slow down, and putting the correct touch on the ball (to get it over a linebacker, squeeze it between a couple of DBs, etc) makes it a lot tougher then throwing a spiral to your buddy standing 10 yards away. That's not even taking into account the mental aspect of hanging in the pocket or making the right read on the play, or the more physical aspects of avoiding the rush, throwing on the move, etc., which I wouldn't generally consider to be part of the act of throwing the ball - and maybe the writer was including those factors as well. Just saying there are a lot more things that go into completing a pass in a game besides throwing a spiral.

That said, I'm in the camp that says hitting a baseball is toughest. Different arm angles and release points, changes in velocity, movement, a small ball, and a skinny bat. Tons of variables, even though you're theoretically only accountable for a relatively small strike zone. Put it this way - tons of baseball players can throw a decent pass, but how many QBs can go hit a 90 mph fastball with movement? Joe Mauer (back in the day) but not too many others.

UCBerzerkeley;315040 said:

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"They" say hitting a baseball is the most difficult feat in all of sports

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I remember reading an USA TODAY article that had a list of 10 most difficult things to do in sports, and hitting a baseball was #1.

That list was pretty interesting.... too lazy to look up though.

Okaydo?

59bear;315085 said:

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Perhaps the statement was meant to be "completing a forward pass". I don't think throwing a spiral is all that tough but throwing accurately to a moving receiver, possibly through a forest of defenders can be. My inclination ( although I've never played hockey) was to go with a shot executed while skating full out as way more challenging.

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I think he was talking specifically about the mechanics and not things like making reads. Further on he writes:

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That's because throwing the football isn't about doing one or two big things well. It's about linking together, with perfect alignment and timing, a hundred elements in a biomechanical chain that runs from the toes to the fingertips, little of which feels instinctual. Says Ravens QB coach Jim Zorn, a former NFL passer, "I always tell my quarterbacks that to throw the ball well, you have to make your body do what it should do, not what it wants to do."

Of course, perfect mechanics aren't enough. Those mechanics also must be fully committed to muscle memory, so they can be instantly accessible, and flawlessly reproduced, under any circumstance.

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I think the ability to throw a spiral is a function of the size of your hand. In fact, qbs have the width of their throwing hand, from thumb to little finger, measured at the combine. The easier it is to grasp a football should lead to ease in throwing a spiral. Of course, that doesn't translate to accuracy, but it helps.

In terms of difficulty, try hitting a backhand, crosscourt or down-the-line passing shot while running to a spot, stopping, adjusting your tennis racquet and hitting the speeding ball to the intended location.

But any good pitcher has to have a variety of pitches in order to fool a hitter. Sinkers, sliders and curveballs that just drop are amazing, but hitting a speeding fastball thrown at 99 mph with a piece of wood approx. 4 inches wide has to be the ultimate test of anyone's hand/eye coordination.

BearyWhite;314959 said:

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From an "ESPN The Magazine" article on Jimmy Clausen: Does anyone really think throwing a spiral is the most "complex motor skill" in sports? I think the author's employing a bit of artistic license for the sake of an article about a quarterback, but it made me wonder what action would deserve that title. If golf were a sport I'd say a golf swing. :p

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On the note of pitching a curve requiring more motor skill, I would say pitching a knuckle ball is the most complex motor skill, since it is a weird amalgamation of an intent to move the least coupled with the necessity to pitch fast enough for a ball to reach the plate.

BearyWhite;315090 said:

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I think he was talking specifically about the mechanics and not things like making reads.

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Yes, exactly. If it's about mechanics alone, then I'd say that pitching a baseball or swinging a golf club are way tougher than throwing a football.

Hands down, it's driving in NASCAR.

Okay, just kidding. That "sport" always seemed to me closer to playing a video game than a real sport, except the consequences of crashing are, of course, a little more serious.

Have you guys been to a batting cage and set it to 60? Yes, only 60. I'm guessing very few of us could make solid contact. I know I had a difficult time. No idea 60 was that fast let alone a 95 mph fastball from a MLB pitcher. The cage didn't allow anything faster than 60 IIRC (liability issues I assume).

And when I did make contact, man the reverb from the aluminum bat stung even with batting gloves. You could not pay me enough to stand in the batters box with Randy Johnson throwing 90+ from the mound. Ask John Kruk.

My vote (agree with surewest): hitting a baseball from a MLB pitcher

CrimsonBear;315155 said:

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My vote (agree with surewest): hitting a baseball from a MLB pitcher

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Personally, I'd rule it out if we're talking strictly about the mechanics of it. Mechanically, learning to swing a bat isn't that hard; it's the hand-eye coordination and being able to pick up the speed/direction of a pitch that's difficult.

BearyWhite;315012 said:

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Yes, golf isn't a sport, but I think the swing is remarkably complex because you have to shape the entire plane of the swing, from beginning to end, and every part of your body is connected to that swing plane. I feel like you can change the position of your foot 45 degrees and still hit a good slap shot or throw a nice spiral, but if you move your foot and swing a club the ball will head off in the wrong direction. (I say this as a pretty bad golfer who is often surprised by the direction in which the ball goes.)

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I disagree that golf is a sport. As I said, the ball is stationary and there is very little athletic ability (ie., endurance) required to play the game. Fatsos and senior citizens can play the game competitively. Tennis is also a swinging sport, and the ball is moving at you with some pace and often with a spin. If the angle of the raquet is wrong, the ball hit the net or fly out of the court. Your whole body is also involved in the swing from the hips, the shoulders and arm. You also often hit the ball on the run and have to place it with accuracy.

You can call golf a sport but golfers are not athletes.

socaltownie;315068 said:

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one of those conversation that proves......

There is too much time between the end of basketball season and the first day of fall practice

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Calcoholic;315139 said:

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Hands down, it's driving in NASCAR.

Okay, just kidding. That "sport" always seemed to me closer to playing a video game than a real sport, except the consequences of crashing are, of course, a little more serious.

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Don't laugh!
Have any of you ever driven a race car.
I did for about 4 years, and it will beat the crap out of your body.
At the beginning of the season driving an open wheel car for 3 hours felt like the start of double sessions in football.

Cal_Fan2;315006 said:

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All these things mentioned have equal merit to be sure...but I've always been under the impression that hitting a baseball for a decent average of lets say, .300 is the hardest motor skill in sports.... if a QB had a .300 average he'd be selling peanuts at Sea World...oh, and I've played baseball and hockey and hitting a baseball against a good pitcher is much tougher then a slapshot any day of the week and twice on Sundays

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Then hitting a fast-pitch softball must be even harder, because the average is a lot lower. Right?