Just curious, as someone I know is considering dental school.

I could swear we've had at least one or two dentists on here? Any of you, or anyone else who has families or friends in the profession, have any thoughts on the pros and cons of being a dentist?

510Bear;348498 said:

---

Just curious, as someone I know is considering dental school.

I could swear we've had at least one or two dentists on here? Any of you, or anyone else who has families or friends in the profession, have any thoughts on the pros and cons of being a dentist?

---

My twin brother is a dentist...went to Cal undergrad and UOP dental school in San Francisco which is usually the #1 dental school in the nation....I think UOP and USC are the best ones in Calif. He loves it....from what I know, there aren't as many foreign Dentists coming in like MD's so the rate scale remains more constant. Of course you really want to want to be a Dentist just like any other profession but the career is awesome.....he hurt his shoulder awhile back and had to sell his practice but is now a professor at the UOP Dental School.....

Pros and Cons of dentistry... Well, I'm a dentist, been in the profession for 9 years. I have to say that I love my job because it's got everything I would want in a job: good hours (Mon to Fri 8 to 5, but most dentists work 4 days/week around where I live) and if I need to take a vacation, I just clear the schedule; good pay; it's never dull or boring as I don't sit behind a desk but deal with different people everyday; I get to use my scientific background (MCB!) as well as my artistic talents; and dentistry has changed so much in the last 10 years. I'm working with digital X-rays, Lasers and state of the art CAD/CAM technology to design and mill tooth restorations in one visit!

As for the disadvantages: I deal with different people everyday... there's always that 5% (or more like 1% in my case) that give you 95% of headaches, but then, I think that's true of any job; if you're not good with your hands, there's no getting around it, you just won't be a good dentist; the huge loan when you get out of dental school. I was about $150k in debt when I got out, but I've had friends that had $200K or more, and I'm sure it's much worse now ($250-300k?). Of course, it's all relative and it's not that much when you consider the high salary and being spread out to 30 years at 5% interest.

My advise to whomever is considering a career in dentistry would be to recommend shadowing a dentist or volunteering in a dental office for a couple of weeks to see if you can see yourself in that environment. Also if you don't have good hand skills, I can tell you that you will struggle with the preclinical courses, the clinical courses in dental school and may have a hard time doing good dentistry when you get out of school.

Not to bash any dental school, but as for the comment that UOP and USC are the best dental schools in the US, I would have to respectfully disagree. Most dentists in the profession would rate UCSF and UCLA as being in the top 10, but UOP and USC would be far from it. USC Dental School is actually is struggling with it's curriculum because it tried to copy Harvard's problem based learning, got rid of many of its traditional faculty, and when that program didn't work out too well, reverted back to the traditional curriculum. California state boards is now part of the Western Regional, so you can go to any school in that region (I believe UW, maybe Nevada and some other schools out in the West are part of it) and still have an easy time getting a CA license. I did it the hard way, of course. Went to UPenn, took two board exams and came back to CA instead of staying out East.

Good luck with your friend who is considering dentistry as a career. It's not an easy path but can be rewarding.

calSB;348510 said:

---

Not to bash any dental school, but as for the comment that UOP and USC are the best dental schools in the US, I would have to respectfully disagree.

---

The OP said best in CA. But, I would venture to say that UOP and USC are in the top 5 of CA dental schools.

I know we all get into a huff anytime things (football teams, universities, best pac 10 players, best places to live....) are ranked in ways we don't agree with. The important distinction all these rankings is whether going to a school like UOP would have a significant negative (or positive) effect on one's future when compared to UCSF - and that's going to depend a lot on the individual and what they want to do as much as the school itself.

dentists have the highest suicide rate of any occupational group, according to NIMH statistics (or at least did when I last checked some time ago). Not sure what that means, but...

ColoradoBear1;348534 said:

---

The OP said best in CA. But, I would venture to say that UOP and USC are in the top 5 of CA dental schools.

I know we all get into a huff anytime things (football teams, universities, best pac 10 players, best places to live....) are ranked in ways we don't agree with. The important distinction all these rankings is whether going to a school like UOP would have a significant negative (or positive) effect on one's future when compared to UCSF - and that's going to depend a lot on the individual and what they want to do as much as the school itself.

---

I was probably dating myself when I said UOP and USC. My bro graduated from UOP in the 80's and had copies of the ratings back then and UOP was either #1 or #2 I think back in those days......so now I could be wrong...but you can't go wrong with any of those mentioned ..........

Where the hell is 2thdoc?

there are 5 dental schools in ca

ucsf
ucla
usc
uop
loma linda

there are pros and cons for each school, obviously going to a uc school back then was a much more affordable approach compared to private... but sometimes you also pay what you get as well... more one on one with private institutions vs. public, etc...

i would have to say out of the lastest american dental association report... about 60 to 70 percent of dentist would not choose this career path again...

it really depends on what you want from dentistry... i enjoy it , went to ucsf, and had a great time, not to mention met my wife there. But there are stresses of dealing with patients and staff... and thank god it doesn't happen very often lol.... It's something that is not really taught at the schools... at least not when I went there.

back to work...

510Bear;348498 said:

---

Just curious, as someone I know is considering dental school.
I could swear we've had at least one or two dentists on here? Any of you, or anyone else who has families or friends in the profession, have any thoughts on the pros and cons of being a dentist?

---

Let me start by saying I like my (UC alum) dentist, he's a pro. It's no pain at all to visit. He's a great guy, seems to take a personal interest in his clients, travels and enjoys the arts and finer things in life, and practicing his craft. I respect that.

I like his tech, too, an energetic good person, and more frequently I see the tech and get beat up during the dental hygiene process -- something of a white knuckler experience. What's their deal?

510Bear;348498 said:

---

Just curious, as someone I know is considering dental school.

I could swear we've had at least one or two dentists on here? Any of you, or anyone else who has families or friends in the profession, have any thoughts on the pros and cons of being a dentist?

---

:woohoo

Making the choice to be or not to be a dentist is something that should not be taken lightly. After 4 years of dental school at UCSF and 32 years of practicing, I happily retired. I also dearly liked the practice of dentistry. That does not make it a good choice for everyone. Matter of fact, if you find you do not like dentistry once there, I can imagine why the suicide/alcohol/divorce rates are so high for my fellow dentists. There are a number of frustrations in dentistry---patient co-operation is at the top of the list. There are a number of hats to be worn in dentistry---employer, confessor, professional, small businessman, community participant. All influence your happiness and health. Once the choice is made it is very difficult (never impossible) to turn back, for the committment in specificity, in time, in money are all tremendous. It would take years to re-tool in something else, and would have to be done with high overhead hanging over your shoulders. Now, do not let this sound too negative, for it is not meant to be, but be sure to explore what dentistry is and isn't in advance. Imagine leaving school with $150 to $200 thousand in debt and no patient base, more money needed for your office, etc. It is a very big decision, and usually is made when we are not equipped.

Next, in response to above comments, the best dental schools in the 60s when I attended were U$C, Northwestern, UCSF (no UCLA then), UDub, and P&S (now UOP). The worst were Harvard and NYU---get a New York mouth in your office and it was said you could retire on it. Harvard then graduated quasi physician/dentists and most rarely ever got their hands wet filling a tooth. Things have changed and with the cost of education, the public schools get the best of the best (affordability) such that a graduating dentist (unless a trust fund baby) can minimize debt. So the application lines are much longer and more competitive at UCSF and UCLA than at other schools.

Finally, the best description of dentistry is a dual edged sword. You need to enjoy people and motivating them (both patients and staff). You need to enjoy creating things manually and have talents in that arena. You need the patience of a saint in the ups and downs of business and not take the swings personally. It is a great profession, just not for everyone. Do your homework. Hope this helps. go Bears

Off-topic, but how easy is it to sever a lingual nerve while removing a lower wisdom tooth. I had this happen to me and I was told that more than likely the feeling would come back. It still hasn't . . . 12 years later. I am not hopeful, just curious, because all the second opinions I got said this happens all the time and not to worry and that always seemed like a load of BS.

How about a different angle? I'm not a dentist, but I could have easily been one. My dad was a dentist for 30+ years and when I was at Cal, he basically said that I could join him and eventually take over. I never minded visiting him and seeing the office when I was a kid, but it didn't really fascinate me. I was looking for something different and went into engineering, then IT, now real estate. I've pretty much worked my butt off, pull a lot of all-nighters on certain job, and had some success, but some difficulties as well, particularly the ups/downs of income as some companies work out, some don't, recessions hit...you get the idea. Every job has it's good and bad, but I definitely have worked more hours than a dentist ever would.

However, flash forward 20+ years post-graduation and I see the dentist down the hall from my office. He's closed on Fridays, he's often closed for weeks during the summer while he surfs, he probably makes more than I do now and has a steady, nearly guaranteed income (despite the insurance minefields). Now I can't tell you if the actual work would be what your friend would like, that's an individual choice, but the lifestyle is nice. Hindsight being what it is, I'd probably have done it knowing what I know now.

ColoradoBear1;348534 said:

---

The OP said best in CA. But, I would venture to say that UOP and USC are in the top 5 of CA dental schools.

I know we all get into a huff anytime things (football teams, universities, best pac 10 players, best places to live....) are ranked in ways we don't agree with. The important distinction all these rankings is whether going to a school like UOP would have a significant negative (or positive) effect on one's future when compared to UCSF - and that's going to depend a lot on the individual and what they want to do as much as the school itself.

---

If the OP said best in CA, then I would agree. I would say UOP and USC are top 5 in CA... out of a total of 6 schools. (The new one that just started is a school in Pomona). I'm sure they were terrific schools back in the 60s, but as Odonto pointed out, the public schools have more competition for admission now due to the low (lower) tuition. Therefore, the UC's are getting the best students nowadays in CA.

Can you believe tuition plus living expenses at USC is almost $100k today? :eek: USC does rank #1 when it comes to the most expensive dental schools:

University of Southern California School of Dentistry (USC Dental)
Tuition: $61,953
Fees: $2,253
Equipment: $8,593
Room & board: $17,532
Personal/misc: $2,436
Transportation: $2,700
GRAND TOTAL: $95,467

UOP tuition+living expenses per year actually surpass USC's since UOP is three years not four... UOP estimated cost for 3 years is $361,000, which comes out to $120,000 per year. :eek::eek:

Am I glad I got out when it was only 50-60k/year.

dmar;348551 said:

---

there are 5 dental schools in ca

ucsf
ucla
usc
uop
loma linda.

---

That seems like a valid explanation for USC being one of the top 5 dental schools in the State. :p


I met a person last week who graduated fairly recently from dental school (in Canada, so she probably didn't have a lot of student debt.) She quit after practicing for less than a year, finding the job too repetitive. She's in film now.

I'd imagine she's in the minority though, the profession seems like an incredibly stable one, with high incomes, so if those are the driving factors for career choice... Nevertheless, I think you really need to actually enjoy the process, because material comfort really is only part of the equation and there are different paths to that.

sandiegobears;348595 said:

---

How about a different angle? I'm not a dentist, but I could have easily been one. My dad was a dentist for 30+ years and when I was at Cal, he basically said that I could join him and eventually take over. I never minded visiting him and seeing the office when I was a kid, but it didn't really fascinate me. I was looking for something different and went into engineering, then IT, now real estate. I've pretty much worked my butt off, pull a lot of all-nighters on certain job, and had some success, but some difficulties as well, particularly the ups/downs of income as some companies work out, some don't, recessions hit...you get the idea. Every job has it's good and bad, but I definitely have worked more hours than a dentist ever would.

However, flash forward 20+ years post-graduation and I see the dentist down the hall from my office. He's closed on Fridays, he's often closed for weeks during the summer while he surfs, he probably makes more than I do now and has a steady, nearly guaranteed income (despite the insurance minefields). Now I can't tell you if the actual work would be what your friend would like, that's an individual choice, but the lifestyle is nice. Hindsight being what it is, I'd probably have done it knowing what I know now.

---

SanDiegoBears: This is a great response and you have insider knowledge having a dad (and his cohorts) to support what you suggest. My point would be that there are dentists that make huge amounts of money, take a good deal of time off either for pleasure or education, are loved by one and all, and are nothing but smiles.

Unfortunately, there are tons of dentists who cannot afford to retire for any number of reasons (usually bought into the "I am a doctor" early on and spent accordingly). Many practices barely survive, with open appointment books and month to month worries about covering overhead, let alone having profit. If you look at practice sales the yearly "gross" earnings can vary from under $100 thousand to $1 million plus. Now that is gross, not net which can vary, but usually 30% of that or less. I have too many friends of my vintage who give off the aura of idealists loving their profession so much that they couldn't possibly retire. That is true in some cases, but sadly more ofter relates to not being able to retire. Then there was the group who had sons/daughters who went into dentistry, dad retires and sells the practice to the next of kin, and then his retirement earnings go down 30-40% (remember 2001, and 2008). Then, what do you do. Unretire and push the kid out on the street. I don't think so.

My point is, the dentists usually do realize a very nice life. Noone will feel sorry for them, because of their perception of richness. But woven in the web of all practitioners are many stories, many of them not so pretty. To have the greatest success, you must first be a very good dentist, and then a very good financial guru (saving heavily, investing well). Ofter these two are mutually exclusive as people in the financial world can cite. Most dentists will not retire on the salary of a dentist alone. Again, hope this helps in deciding on a career. go Bears

Well if you watched The Hangover, dentists don't get any respect.

One question I have just out of curiosity (though I will forward the whole thread to my friend)......are general practices more likely to struggle in "desirable" big cities like NYC, LA or SF?

I saw a list of metro areas with the highest average dentist salaries, and they all seem to be out-of-the-way places with lower costs of living, which surprised me as I figured NYC/LA/SF would top the list! Is there a glut of dentists in those and other big cities? Does that make it harder on anyone entering the field who wants to live in one of those places?

KoreAmBear;348611 said:

---

Well if you watched The Hangover, dentists don't get any respect.

---

Yes, I think you are right on, Odonto. My dad struggled in the late 60s when he started, he often said it was a tough time, though as a kid, I would have never known it. We weren't rich, we were solidly middle class. It wasn't until the early 1980s that he was able to make "real" money, about 15 to 20 years in. He cruised the rest of the way before retiring and one of the benefits of being a "nice guy" is that he literally had 1000s of patients who never left him. He was also a very, very good investor/saver, same house, new cars only every 10 years, never over-spent (except for that Stanfurd education he gave my brother). He's been retired about 10 years and life is good.

So, you are correct when you say that you have to be financially savvy. There is a possiblilty that had I chosen to be a dentist, I could easily have struggled with the financial part.

Stu Price: So, uh, are you sure you're qualified to be taking care of that baby?
Alan Garner: What are you talking about? I've found a baby before.
Stu Price: You found a baby before? Where?
Alan Garner: Coffee Bean.

LafayetteBear;348675 said:

---

Alan Garner: Thanks a LOT, Osama bin Laden! (I think you know what I mean, KAB.)

---

Haha, 2nd best character ever. Second only to Chazz on Wedding Crashers. Liked Bradley Cooper better in The Hangover though, LOL.

All I know is that I paid $1500 to an endodontist for a root canal two and a half weeks ago and will be paying $1100 to my dentist for a gold crown on the same tooth.

OneTopOneChickenApple;348746 said:

---

All I know is that I paid $1500 to an endodontist for a root canal two and a half weeks ago and will be paying $1100 to my dentist for a gold crown on the same tooth.

---

Just pay it so you can resume gnashing your Top and Chicken Apple.

OneTopOneChickenApple;348746 said:

---

All I know is that I paid $1500 to an endodontist for a root canal two and a half weeks ago and will be paying $1100 to my dentist for a gold crown on the same tooth.

---

I have no vested interest any longer. So it sounds like big business, big oil, big whatever. Shoot the guys. My goodness that is expensive. Yes it is. I have had two surgeries, one bout of radiation therapy in the last year and a half and it came in over $200,000. For 6 hours of surgery and eight days in the hospital. I am thankful for every dollar of it, for I have some insight into what goes into it. Oh yeh, I paid for some insurance too, to protect.

Point is, you really don't know what goes into the overall overhead in these situations. Most of these professionals are very well meaning, honest practioners. What would you like in exchange?? A freebee??? I really don't think you would like what you got. Try it. There are a ton of cheapo clinics. Rich doctors and dentists are not the culprits, as much as you would like to project your anger.

Who's angry? I'm glad I did it. You sound more angry than me. Just telling you what it costs in response to the OP.

I'm not a dentist, but I have sadly had many experiences with them.

They can be saints and you really do make a difference in the lives of your patients. The relief I felt a week after my root canal was worth every single penny - great team work of a wonderful dentist and a very talented endodontist.

You will be an asset to society if you enter the field but just be an honest dentist - without starting a flame war - the career has really no oversight over the provider. It is really easy to be dishonest.

Then it's worth it. Although, I remember biting onto a piece of bone in a Chicken Apple once.

On that thought, I did go to a new dentist because the previous dentist seemed a bit pushy on marketing new products in her office whenever I asked specific questions and felt like she rushed for the most expensive procedures before taking a more conservative route.

OneTopOneChickenApple;348766 said:

---

On that thought, I did go to a new dentist because the previous dentist seemed a bit pushy on marketing new products in her office whenever I asked specific questions and felt like she rushed for the most expensive procedures before taking a more conservative route.

---

Buyer beware on that one "One Top". There are those who cloud idealism in being above it all, in all walks of life. And in response to your previous post, No, I have no anger. I just feel free of any restraints I had as a practicing dentist. At this point in life I still have a love for the sincerity of the product in dentistry, but am not wed to defending it. I just feel I can express myself with less of a vested interest than I could when practicing. And one of the greatest frustrations is that you could not scream out at many of the falsities, for your audience perceived you as "poor baby". It just is not true. There are significant difficulties in the practice of dentistry. I was just trying to answer a question for a poster with regards to a professional choice. You were exhorting a frustration over cost of product. I empathize, but it is as it is. I hope I was helping that individual. In response to your problems of current cost, I would have to defer to currently practicing dentists.

As a 17-year practicing dentist, I just have to say that you all are anti-dentites:

I'll be here in minute.....gotta read the whole thread first.

oobay;348790 said:

---

As a 17-year practicing dentist, I just have to say that you all are anti-dentites:

---

The dentist from Seinfeld went on to become an anti-social meth manufacturer who repeatedly breaks the law.

Holy S@#t!!!! I love both series and didn't make the connection.

Sorry for the late reply. Today was one of my days off (so is Sat, Sum and Mon). Walked L'il 2th to Spanish Emersion Summer Camp at EBI on Alcatraz. Went out to visit Pops and Mom in Walnut Creek with Caby (the unofficial golden retriever to the California Golden Bears...Savvy RIP), as well as spent a few hours continuing the restoration process on my grandfathers '34 Ford (today was the floorboard and cowl wiring). Had to get back by 3pm to pick up 2th and go to gymnastics. Home by 5:27. Mrs 2th reminded us she had a meeting, so L'il 2th and I took in a brew and lemonade and a large Bay Shrimp salad at Barclays. Home by 7:15p. After a little winding down (History Channel and Dragon Tales) it was bedtime for L'il 2th.
After cracking open a Red Stripe, here I am......

Sorry..Phone call....

I agree with all the dentists input so far. I can relate to sandiegobears very much...similar story.....sort of.

As you know, Pops is a retired dentist. Growing up I had absolutely no interest in following in his footsteps. Graduated SDSU with a bachelors in Speech Communication. Entered SFSU grad program in Social Sciences. A couple of my influences at the time were community college instructors. I thought that that was a great path, so I figured a plan that would put me as a History, Constutional Law, or Sociology instructor at DVC. Hit the wall writing a thesis. I walked away one thesis shy of a masters degree.....I figured I 'd complete it after some time off.
For about 8 years, I made a pretty good living buying and selling BMW 2002s and Honda Civic/Accords through the Classified Flea Market paper (precursor to craigslist for the east bay).
Time came to pick a real career. I couldn't see myself doing that at 50.
After a long soul search, I started to think about dentistry. It was a profession that kept a family of 5 comfortable, could have been much better than just comfortable....but that's a whole different story.
I decided at age 30...yep I'm gonna try being a dentist.
I had absolutely ZERO science. I went back and took all the dental prerequisite courses at just about every college in the bay area.
Entered UOP July 7 1990 at 32.
My experience at UOP / dental school was probably quite unique. I was the oldest in my class, had been to a lot of distant lands, been married and divorced, and already owned a home with a mortgage. Right out of the gate, putting my name on a boatload of loan money was just another loan ap.
My time at UOP was close to being the 3 most continuous fun years of my life. On the way I made some great friends.

As you can probably tell from the start of this post, the most valuable asset I have is my time with my family, my friends and myself.
I do not work as a dentist for a living.
I work as a dentist for the means to send time with those persons I love and for the activities I enjoy.
I am nowhere near affluent....in monetary assets.
I am rich in things you can't buy.
My philosophy was reaffirmed after my best friend, a guy that worked way to hard, limited time to spend with his family and always had a another place that he added to the "Hope to visit" list passed away after 18months of being diagnosed with ALS at the age of 47 (Greggy you are missed) leaving behind twin son and daughter, wife sister, brother, mother, father and friends.

Sure there are ups and downs, some downs can get pretty low. It's great to be your own boss, however, there have been more than a few times where I wish I had a dependable paycheck.

If one likes people, has good conversational ability, and works well with one's hands then one should consider the profession. If one is shakey (no pun intended) at any of the above three qualities, I would definitely suggest that if one still wants to enter the profession......specialize in either endo or oral surgery. Root canal patients tend to already be in pain, know that it will all be over soon, and one may never see them again. Oral surgeons either see patients doped up on versed and nitrous....our out cold under general anesthesia.

Bottom line, nobody cares how well you did in dental school; they don't care whether or not your cavity preparation is dental board exam quality, and they really don't care if you are using digital x-rays and lasers. What they really care about is that they can trust and feel comfortable with you.
The high tech equipment and godlike clinical skills is just a bonus.

BTW.....Odonto is still speaking fact, I can spot a NY/NE dental patient a mile away......and yes....a gold mine.

And Yes, UOP was #1 or 2 when I was in school........look it up.
I would like to hope it is still ranked in the top 5......of the nation, but I don't know. When I went through dental school at UOP it was well known within the profession that UOP graduates were better prepared for real world practice and UCSF graduates were better prepared to write a study to research the molecular structure of hydroxyappite crystals as they react with the HCl produced by sub equatorial mammals.

One of the best parts of being 2thdoc is being BEARS2thDOC!!

:gobears: