Rumor: BYU to go independent in football?
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Last: 15 yr ago by BearSD
WOW.......Boise St's schedule is getting easier all the time... that might be the death knell of the WAC. (oops., I meant MWC) thanks for picking that up BearSD
You mean, death knell of the MWC. BYU is in the MWC, which is also about to lose Utah to the Pac-12.
The WAC would get a boost, if this rumor is true, because the rumor sez BYU could (re)join the WAC for all sports other than football.
The WAC would get a boost, if this rumor is true, because the rumor sez BYU could (re)join the WAC for all sports other than football.
BearSD;360230 said:
You mean, death knell of the MWC. BYU is in the MWC, which is also about to lose Utah to the Pac-12.
The WAC would get a boost, if this rumor is true, because the rumor sez BYU could (re)join the WAC for all sports other than football.
yes, ....that is what I meant...my bad....edited per your good catch..
You mean the MWC. Boise just left the WAC to join the MWC, after Utah left to join the Pac-10/12.
I don't see this happening. Notre Dame is the only major team without a conference and they'd join one in a heartbeat if they didn't have the special status in the BCS. If BYU went independent they would immediately find trouble in scheduling as after the first 3-4 weeks of the season most teams are playing conference games, and with the exception of some of the weaker teams looking for a high payday by visiting an SEC site, there jsut aren't going to be many teams willing to play them later in the season. The BCS teams wouldn't want to risk their rankings if they lose, and would want to play at home, while the non-BCS teams could not be offered enough money to make the trip truly worthwile as BYU isn't going to sell as many tickets for a home game against Directional State U as an SEC team does.
This sounds more like an attempt to either get the Pac-10 or Big12 to make an offer for BYU, or an attempt to push the MWC to change the current structure to give BYU more power. Knowing the MWC and their current prospects for expansion by picking up the Big12 North teams when it finally falls apart I can't see the MWC surrendering to the blackmail. BYU is trying to draw to an inside straight when someone lese is holding 3 of a kind of the number they need.
This sounds more like an attempt to either get the Pac-10 or Big12 to make an offer for BYU, or an attempt to push the MWC to change the current structure to give BYU more power. Knowing the MWC and their current prospects for expansion by picking up the Big12 North teams when it finally falls apart I can't see the MWC surrendering to the blackmail. BYU is trying to draw to an inside straight when someone lese is holding 3 of a kind of the number they need.
Quote:
It started with Jeff Goodman of FOX Sports.com, who tweeted earlier Tuesday that he's "hearing from multiple sources there's a strong possibility that BYU goes to the WAC in hoop and becomes independent in football."
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Why does BYU want to go to the WAC for basketball?!
BYU is probably in a world of hurt right now. Their rival Utah just upgraded to the surging Larry Scott-era Pac 12, leaving them in the dust. I'll bet they're grasping at straws (though with all the conference realignment that may be yet to come, they just might land on their feet anyway).
510Bear;360239 said:
BYU is probably in a world of hurt right now. Their rival Utah just upgraded to the surging Larry Scott-era Pac 12, leaving them in the dust. I'll bet they're grasping at straws (though with all the conference realignment that may be yet to come, they just might land on their feet anyway).
BYU's refusal to play varsity sports on Sundays, stemming from its Church of Latter-Day Saint obligations, is a major buzzkill for any major conferences when considering BYU membership. This makes [U]NO SENSE AT ALL[/U].
then look no farther than BYU trying to force a merger of the MWC and the WAC, with certain select schools being left in the dust.
Who those schools might be, I don't really know. But it seems to me that the rumors of independence are a pretext for forcing the WAC and the MWC into rejoining for the purposes of making a mid-major super-conference. Such a super-conference would have a better shot at a BCS berth than an MWC that merely has BYU, Utah and TCU.
Also, if the newest version of the WAC or MWC has at least 12 teams, they can hold a conference championship game.
With Utah moving to the Pac-10, that move co-opts most of the power that Orrin Hatch had in Congress on the issue of the BCS being an unfair restraint of trade because it leaves out mid-major schools. Utah was Exhibit A for Hatch's argument. What's left of Hatch's argument? TCU? BYU? Boise State?
Here's how I would expect a 12-team WAC/MWC to look:
West Division
Boise State
Fresno State
Hawai'i
Idaho
San Diego State
San Jose State
East Division
Air Force
BYU
Colorado State
Nevada
TCU
UNLV
Who's left out in the cold?
Louisiana Tech
New Mexico
New Mexico State
Utah State
Wyoming
Admittedly, this is just a guess. But the bigger guess is that BYU is betting that they can go independent or they may have enough juice to get people in the WAC and MWC to talk merger.
Who those schools might be, I don't really know. But it seems to me that the rumors of independence are a pretext for forcing the WAC and the MWC into rejoining for the purposes of making a mid-major super-conference. Such a super-conference would have a better shot at a BCS berth than an MWC that merely has BYU, Utah and TCU.
Also, if the newest version of the WAC or MWC has at least 12 teams, they can hold a conference championship game.
With Utah moving to the Pac-10, that move co-opts most of the power that Orrin Hatch had in Congress on the issue of the BCS being an unfair restraint of trade because it leaves out mid-major schools. Utah was Exhibit A for Hatch's argument. What's left of Hatch's argument? TCU? BYU? Boise State?
Here's how I would expect a 12-team WAC/MWC to look:
West Division
Boise State
Fresno State
Hawai'i
Idaho
San Diego State
San Jose State
East Division
Air Force
BYU
Colorado State
Nevada
TCU
UNLV
Who's left out in the cold?
Louisiana Tech
New Mexico
New Mexico State
Utah State
Wyoming
Admittedly, this is just a guess. But the bigger guess is that BYU is betting that they can go independent or they may have enough juice to get people in the WAC and MWC to talk merger.
BYU is better off getting on their knees and begging the Big X (formerly the Big XII) conference for inclusion.
All they have to say is that they are willing to forgo added TV revenue until the new contracts are made and that they will settle for their current MWC sized paychecks (1 Million per year?) until then.
However, I don't know if their "No Sundays" rule will preclude them from joining the Big X. Never looked into that.
Overall, I'm sure Baylor vetoes any TCU overture to join because the Horned Frauds did the same to them this summer regarding a possible MWC invite to Baylor.
In the long run, maybe the Big X will invite BYU and Boise next year and become 12 teams again....if TV revenue sharing (greed) isn't a sticking point among everybody involved.
All they have to say is that they are willing to forgo added TV revenue until the new contracts are made and that they will settle for their current MWC sized paychecks (1 Million per year?) until then.
However, I don't know if their "No Sundays" rule will preclude them from joining the Big X. Never looked into that.
Overall, I'm sure Baylor vetoes any TCU overture to join because the Horned Frauds did the same to them this summer regarding a possible MWC invite to Baylor.
In the long run, maybe the Big X will invite BYU and Boise next year and become 12 teams again....if TV revenue sharing (greed) isn't a sticking point among everybody involved.
invite BYU to join them?
Put aside the issue that BYU teams don't play on Sunday.
[1] What does BYU bring to the Big XII that the Big XII could possibly want?
[2] Why would BYU accept a clearly subservient role to Texas and Oklahoma in the Big XII when they might have a bigger presence in a re-combined WAC/MWC?
[3] If BYU is at all serious about going independent or simply leaving the MWC, how would that help them gain entry to the Big XII if, in fact, this is their ulterior motive?
Put aside the issue that BYU teams don't play on Sunday.
[1] What does BYU bring to the Big XII that the Big XII could possibly want?
[2] Why would BYU accept a clearly subservient role to Texas and Oklahoma in the Big XII when they might have a bigger presence in a re-combined WAC/MWC?
[3] If BYU is at all serious about going independent or simply leaving the MWC, how would that help them gain entry to the Big XII if, in fact, this is their ulterior motive?
DavidDempster;360261 said:
invite BYU to join them?
Put aside the issue that BYU teams don't play on Sunday...
From my perspective, End of Argument. That's all I need to know.
However, feel free to answer your own (rhetorical?) questions posited above. I'm interested in what you have to say on the matter regarding the Big X and BYU.
Andy Katz on ESPN.com is reporting a very similar story.
Sources: BYU mulling Notre Dame path
One thing that stands out in the story is that BYU would need a conference affiliation for basketball and its non-revenue sports. This is very much like Notre Dame, where the Fighting Irish are affiliated with the Big East for all sports other than football.
BYU would also need an assurance from the BCS that they could get a BCS bowl bid should they meet certain criteria similar to what's offered Notre Dame.
Very interesting, indeed.
Sources: BYU mulling Notre Dame path
One thing that stands out in the story is that BYU would need a conference affiliation for basketball and its non-revenue sports. This is very much like Notre Dame, where the Fighting Irish are affiliated with the Big East for all sports other than football.
BYU would also need an assurance from the BCS that they could get a BCS bowl bid should they meet certain criteria similar to what's offered Notre Dame.
Very interesting, indeed.
No special reason, except that Boise State and Idaho are arch-rivals. Pretty vicious, too, from what I understand. And that's why Boise State won't travel to Moscow. But I digress.
I could just as easily imagine Idaho not making the cut and one of the other schools on the "Left out in the cold" list making it. Like Wyoming, for instance. Or Utah State. Or New Mexico.
I could just as easily imagine Idaho not making the cut and one of the other schools on the "Left out in the cold" list making it. Like Wyoming, for instance. Or Utah State. Or New Mexico.
DavidDempster;360255 said:
then look no farther than BYU trying to force a merger of the MWC and the WAC, with certain select schools being left in the dust.
Who those schools might be, I don't really know. But it seems to me that the rumors of independence are a pretext for forcing the WAC and the MWC into rejoining for the purposes of making a mid-major super-conference...
If BYU going independent is an attempt to force a merger of the MWC and WAC, why didn't the MWC (with BYU as a leader) just invite 3 more WAC teams to join them immediately after Utah left for the PAC this summer? That would be a 12-team conference with a CCG and the schools left in the dust would be the WAC scraps.
Why don't the schools in your scenario above just contact each other and form this conference?
Our Domicile;360275 said:
If BYU going independent is an attempt to force a merger of the MWC and WAC, why didn't the MWC (with BYU as a leader) just invite 3 more WAC teams to join them immediately after Utah left for the PAC this summer? That would be a 12-team conference with a CCG and the schools left in the dust would be the WAC scraps.
Why don't the schools in your scenario above just contact each other and form this conference?
True. Any of the schools in the WAC would jump at the chance to join the MWC. It's doubtful that any of the schools in the MWC, which left the WAC many years ago, would be left out in the cold for a current WAC team.
Because in my scenario, BYU wants to create a sense of urgency. And the best way to do that is to move the cheese. By threatening to go independent, BYU is moving the cheese.
DavidDempster;360255 said:
then look no farther than BYU trying to force a merger of the MWC and the WAC, with certain select schools being left in the dust.
Who those schools might be, I don't really know. But it seems to me that the rumors of independence are a pretext for forcing the WAC and the MWC into rejoining for the purposes of making a mid-major super-conference. Such a super-conference would have a better shot at a BCS berth than an MWC that merely has BYU, Utah and TCU.
BYU has a better shot at making a BCS game as an independent, with a schedule of Notre Dame, the service academies, Utah, Utah State, maybe another Pac-12 team and a Big 12 Lite team, and a few cupcakes to round out the schedule. In addition to having control over their schedule, they would be on ESPN more often and would be a higher-profile program than any MWC team could be.
Interesting... it did last night... but now it is gone. I am sure someone must have hacked the CSU twitter account and they removed the offending, er, "tweet"DavidDempster;360319 said:
When I click on the link I get a message "Sorry, that page doesn't exist!"
. Boise State has traveled to Moscow every other year since 1973, except for two time Idaho played its home game in Pullman, and in 2004-2005 they flipped the home/away cycle for this series, resulting in 2 consecutive games in Boise.LafayetteBear;360264 said:
DD: Re your vision of a rejiggered WAC, why would Utah State or New Mexico be left out and Idaho left in. Heck, even Boise State won't go to Moscow to play a game. Utah State and New Mexico have better teams and more followers. ??
Independence seems to hinge on whether or not the BCS will give BYU terms similar to Notre Dame's in qualifying for a BCS bowl.
I posit that BYU pursues independent status IF it doesn't shut them out of a BCS bowl. I also posit that if BYU can achieve the same thing by belonging to a conference with an AQ bid, they'll do that too.
Consider:
[1] BYU was disappointed that the Pac-10 did not extend an invitation and chose Utah instead,
[2] BYU may have attempted to join the Big XII,
[3] the MWC has added Boise State for 2011 and beyond, but has also lost Utah beginning in 2011.
#3 is the catalyst for BYU's actions in my view, because it demonstrated that the best the MWC can hope to do on its own is tread water, or run in place, if you prefer.
Let's say that independence isn't in the cards, for whatever reason. What's BYU's next best option? Working to make a super-conference out of the MWC and the WAC, however that might be achieved. A super-conference has a shot at an automatic BCS bid; the MWC and the WAC alone do not.
I posit that BYU pursues independent status IF it doesn't shut them out of a BCS bowl. I also posit that if BYU can achieve the same thing by belonging to a conference with an AQ bid, they'll do that too.
Consider:
[1] BYU was disappointed that the Pac-10 did not extend an invitation and chose Utah instead,
[2] BYU may have attempted to join the Big XII,
[3] the MWC has added Boise State for 2011 and beyond, but has also lost Utah beginning in 2011.
#3 is the catalyst for BYU's actions in my view, because it demonstrated that the best the MWC can hope to do on its own is tread water, or run in place, if you prefer.
Let's say that independence isn't in the cards, for whatever reason. What's BYU's next best option? Working to make a super-conference out of the MWC and the WAC, however that might be achieved. A super-conference has a shot at an automatic BCS bid; the MWC and the WAC alone do not.
DavidDempster;360263 said:
Andy Katz on ESPN.com is reporting a very similar story....
BYU would also need an assurance from the BCS that they could get a BCS bowl bid should they meet certain criteria similar to what's offered Notre Dame.
Very interesting, indeed.
Very strange situation. I'm sure BYU is ****ed that Utah left, but I don't see much good coming from them leaving. There is no way the BCS will make assurances similar to ND to BYU... because BYU is obviously no ND. The BCS is run by the bowl and the 6 power conferences, who have no interest in letting another team have access. If BYU were to be granted special status, I'm sure lots of teams would look into getting special status, which would start a domino effect to negate everything the BCS has worked for.
I believe that the current CPU/voting formula has grossly overrates teams that play weaker schedules and go undefeated (or more accurately play a weaker schedule and win more games) and it would become quite apparent that teams that play with an independent status have an advantage. It would be complete BS to allow a team like BYU to have greater access to the BCS by leaving a conference with decent competition to play who they like.
Another thing working against BYU is that all bowls are contractually tied to a conference, so if they were not in the BCS they would play in bowls like the Poinsettia or Eagle Bank that could not fill their spots (though one could argue that isn't that much worse than what the MWC gets now).
One interesting question is where BYU would find a television partner. Very unlikely that they could get a network deal like ND. Very unlikely - the money will not be there I would even a lower tier cable network llike versus want to burn airtime on BYU? But they do have the BYU network which is distributed on Dish and Directv, and I presume cable in Utah - wonder if they have enough national mormon following to be able to make any money there. The MWC pulls in ~4-5 mil per team in total revenue.
As for BYU eventually joining the B12 lite, I would assume that if they did want to expand, Texas would push for more Texas teams - Houston and TCU? Who know if the b12 will be around in 5 years either.
But as others have said, it simply comes down to BYU and BCS access - I believe that ND had contracts with major bowls that had to be addressed when the BCS formed. BYU has nothing of the sort...
Added:
The current BCS selection rules do not seem to allow a independent team to earn an auto birth due to BCS ranking (that birth is restricted to the champion of Conference USA, the Mid-American Conference, the Mountain West Conference, the Sun Belt Conference, or the Western Athletic Conference if the meet criteria set by the BCS):
http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_selection_procedures.html
BYU leaving would definitely mean the MWC has zero chance at a BCS autobid, though Utah leaving put that chance at essentially zero already.
Agreed, and frankly, this is a really interesting question. Does the BCS have a right to deny the same terms to BYU as they have given Notre Dame? And if BYU challenges that and wins, might we see some other teams go Indie in football as a way of improving their chances of making a BCS game?DavidDempster;360326 said:
Independence seems to hinge on whether or not the BCS will give BYU terms similar to Notre Dame's in qualifying for a BCS bowl.
I don't recall exactly what the Notre Dame clause currently is, that guarantees them a BCS appearance... top 12 ranking, top 16 ranking?
I actually think it makes a lot of sense with BYU's international fan base and they already have a cable channel and state of the art TV infrastructre. They could choose their own schedule (for the most part) to make the games appealing.
I bet they make way more in revenue than if they joined a conference that would accept them.
I bet they make way more in revenue than if they joined a conference that would accept them.
DavidDempster;360282 said:
Because in my scenario, BYU wants to create a sense of urgency. And the best way to do that is to move the cheese. By threatening to go independent, BYU is moving the cheese.
Or they become army.
elpbear;360331 said:
Agreed, and frankly, this is a really interesting question. Does the BCS have a right to deny the same terms to BYU as they have given Notre Dame?
BYU has no right to the same terms as ND. Aside from the NCG, the bowl games are exhibitions. If they don't want BYU, I don't see how that's any different than any other bowl game filling their slots due to contractual obligations.
elpbear;360331 said:
And if BYU challenges that and wins, might we see some other teams go Indie in football as a way of improving their chances of making a BCS game?
How is BYU going to challenge? In the courts? ridiculous. is orin hatch going to raise a stink?
elpbear;360331 said:
I don't recall exactly what the Notre Dame clause currently is, that guarantees them a BCS appearance... top 12 ranking, top 16 ranking?
I wish there were an article that explains how ND got special status, but they had contractual agreements with a lot of the players in the BCS (Bowls, TV) that had to be addressed to make the BCS work. Plus at the time ND was a big player, so the bowls wanted ND in the BCS instead of playing in a competing bowl.
That is the risk for BYU. I don't think they've painted themselves into a corner, yet.
Notre Dame is guaranteed with a top 8 ranking. With a top 14 ranking they are eligible for at-large selection like anyone else.elpbear;360331 said:
I don't recall exactly what the Notre Dame clause currently is, that guarantees them a BCS appearance... top 12 ranking, top 16 ranking?
This is nothing more than sour grapes because Utah joined the Pac-12 and BYU was not even invited. I must admit; It's fun to watch them squirm a little. The is is a thinly veiled attempt at squeezing a lopsided contract from the MWC. They're not stupid enough to think they can pull off independence in the current landscape of the BCS. They're just trying to pull a Texas maneuver with their current MWC contract - only they're not desirable enough to leverage an invite from a significant conference. They can only threaten "independence" - lofl.
There are other rumors about the "holy war" - Utah and BYU's big game - not being on the scheduled after this year. I.e. more sour grapes.
There are other rumors about the "holy war" - Utah and BYU's big game - not being on the scheduled after this year. I.e. more sour grapes.
It is interesting that BYU was the first college football team to have some semblance of its own TV network--before the MWC formed it syndicated its games nationally via the Blue & White Network. Mostly it was on obscure UHF channels, but still it was a way to connect to a national fan base that is tied together by religious affiliation. That base is what they would be banking on if they went independent.
elpbear;360324 said:
Interesting... it did last night... but now it is gone. I am sure someone must have hacked the CSU twitter account and they removed the offending, er, "tweet"
Yes, it was there last night and was linked in another news story that I read. Here's what the tweet said:
Quote:
BYU to go independent in football in 2011. Cougars will join the WAC for all other sports. Press conference scheduled for Thursday.
Dennis Dodd is saying CSU claims it was hacked:
Quote:
Some outlets are citing a tweet, reportedly coming from Colorado State, that the move will be announced at a Thursday press conference. The school was in the process Wednesday morning releasing a statement denying the tweet had come from Colorado State. A school spokesman said someone had hacked into the school account that could be accessed by only three persons from Colorado State
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/23960886
As to the rumored move, four questions on my mind:
1 - TV: A lot has been made of BYU already having its TV network available on many cable/satellite outlets. True enough. But I always thought religious networks paid for that access. Do the cable outlets pay subscriber fees to BYU for placing this channel in their basic package? If not, where would BYU be getting money from? I guess proceeds from commercials/sponsors during BYU games
2 - Schedule: Yes, BYU could potentially upgrade their schedule by picking and choosing which teams to play, but as others have stated, it may be more difficult later in the season.
3 - BCS bowls: BYU wants a similar deal to ND. That is, if they're in the top 8, guaranteed BCS bowl. I don't see that happening. No way ND agrees. What happens if both are in the top-8 but BYU is higher? We'd never hear the end of it.
4 - Non-BCS bowls: ND is affiliated with the Big East bowl lineup, which is not bad. It includes the Sun and Gator Bowls. If BYU gets a similar deal with the WAC, the highest Bowl they'd have access to is the New Mexico or Humanitarian Bowl. At least with the MWC, they could go to the Vegas, Poinsettia, or Independence Bowls, where the opponent is a BCS team.
LOL. I made that up at the time, but it's predictable isn't it? When there's a tweet that says something that gets removed, it was always hacked. I guess it's always possible, but it just seems like the new "oops" to me.OskiDeLaHoya;360345 said:
Dennis Dodd is saying CSU claims it was hacked
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