There has been a lot of board discussion recently about the current crop of Cal QBs - rather than debate who is the best of this group, which has been come a little contentious, I'd like to go a different direction: Which Cal QB is the all time best in each catagory? - the only condition attached is that you must have seen the QB play in person - getting long of tooth so some of my choices go back a ways - in some cases I didn't have a nominee - feel free to add or modify the catagories - Catagories and my selections:

1 ) Pure passer: Craig Morton
2 ) Gritiest: Joe Kapp
3 ) Strongest Arm: Kyle Boller
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Joe Roth
5 ) Runner: Paul Larson
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers
7 ) In the clutch: Joe Roth
8 ) Scrambler: ?
9 ) Most athletic: ?
10 ) Overall: Joe Roth

As a current Cal student this is going to be a fairly uninspiring list.

1 ) Pure Passer: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury
2 ) Grittiest: Kevin Riley '10 during injury
3 ) Strongest Arm: Nate Longshore
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury
5 ) Runner: Kevin Riley
6 ) Accuracy: Kevin Riley '07 Armed Forces Bowl
7 ) In the clutch: Kevin Riley '07 Armed Forces Bowl
8 ) Scrambler: Kevin Riley
9 ) Most Athletic: Kevin Riley
10 ) Overall: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury

Strongest arm: Steve Bartkowski

ghostof37;482191 said:

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Strongest arm: Steve Bartkowski

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Kyle.
But Bart had touch when he wanted it...

1 ) Pure passer: Aaron Rodgers
2 ) Gritiest: Aaron Rodgers
3 ) Strongest Arm: Aaron Rodgers
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Aaron Rodgers
5 ) Runner: Aaron Rodgers
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers
7 ) In the clutch: Aaron Rodgers
8 ) Scrambler: Aaron Rodgers
9 ) Most athletic: Joe Ayoob
10 ) Overall: Aaron Rodgers

The quarterback position has evolved so much over the past 40 years and I think oldtimers give too much credit to the early good quarterbacks just because they were better than anything seen before. But their stats are horrible when compared to today. Interceptions were far more accepted 40 years ago than they are now. For example, lets compare these two sets of stats:

1) 53.4% completion percentage, 2,715 yards, 7.6 ypa, 18 Tds, 18 Int's
2) 54.7% completion percentage, 2,850 yards, 7.5 ypa, 18 TDs, 8 Int's

Fairly similar stats except for the Int's. So which quarterback would you rather have? The 2nd set of stats are from Kevin Riley in 2009 which was somewhat disappointing for Cal fans. The 1st set of stats were from Jim Plunkett's heisman trophy campaing in 1970, which set a conference record for passing yards. With those 18 Int's the heisman trophy winner would lose his job today.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, let's not try to pretend that any of our quarterbacks ever, were better than Aaron Rodgers.

No thread about Cal QB all-time greats should go without a mention of the master of the two-point convesion, Ziev Gottlieb.

dajo9;482206 said:

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I guess what I'm trying to say is, let's not try to pretend that any of our quarterbacks ever, were better than Aaron Rodgers.

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Dajo9 -- I'm guessing you never saw Joe Roth play. I have seen all Cal home games since '67. In their own ways, Joe Roth and Aaron Rodgers were amazingly outstanding. Don't know how anyone could pick one as better than the other.

Other than Aaron Rodgers, who is in a class unto himself:

He probably wouldn't top any of the listed categories, but the QB I'd most want under center with the game on the line would be Mike Pawlawski.

dajo9;482206 said:

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The quarterback position has evolved so much over the past 40 years and I think oldtimers give too much credit to the early good quarterbacks just because they were better than anything seen before. But their stats are horrible when compared to today.

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Modern rules protect QBs and WRs far more than the game of the past. A DB can barely breathe on a WR today; back then it was a totally different story. You need to look at the whole story if you want to make a legit comparison (and even then, comparisons are hard, because so many things have changed).

That said, I'd have a hard time not putting Rodgers up for many of these categories. Rodgers is a truly special QB that just doesn't come around and there are only a handful of Cal QBs that can match his abilities (sadly not accomplishments while at Cal).

You are placing to much importance on comparative statistics when that doesn't necessarily mean QB's got better, but that the change in offensive strategies and rule changes made passing stats look better. For instance - the west coast offense was easier to run. Also, the 70's brought changes, like the illegal chuck rule, that made it a lot easier for receivers to get open.

I would point out the example that you gave - Jim Plunkett. Through much of his career in the NFL, he completed a shade over 50%, including the first year he took the Raiders to the Superbowl in 1980 - note Bill Walsh took the first West Coast offense to the Superbowl the following year. (51.6%) 3 years later, the second time he took the Raiders to the SB, he completed 60%. His best statistical years as a pro QB were his 15th, 13th, 12th, 14th, and 16th, in that order. (the fact that 15th was best when he was way past his prime says something.) Was ol' man Plunkett better than in his prime Plunkett? Don't think so. (and as a Raider fan who saw those seasons, I'd say definitely not.). The game changed.

I put Rodgers a shade ahead of Roth, but it is a close question. We would have matched our accomplishments in 2004 with Roth, and if we had Roth (or Rodgers) in 2005 or 2006, we go to the RB or better. Putting Longshore or Reggie Robertson or Kevin Riley or Justin Vedder ahead of Roth or Bartkowski or Morton as you would have to do statistically would be absolutely ridiculous.

Having seen them both, I'd put Kapp over Larson as a runner even though Larson was originally recruited as a RB. Kapp had one of the longest runs from scrimmage in Cal history (92 Y?) against Oregon when he turned a broken play into a naked reverse, ran over a LB and then outran the "D" for the TD. Joe would also be a candidate for best athlete as he likely could have started at Cal at any of 3 or 4 positions and would have been a pretty good hoopster if he'd chosen to specialize. Also in the best athlete category I'd consider Bartkowski, an excellent baseball player who probably could have made a living in that sport as well and who was a HS all-star basketballer. For scrambler, Troy Taylor would have to have consideration: he spent most of his career running for his life and was still pretty successful on some truly awful teams.

Completion % : Aaron Rodgers 2004 - 66.1%
Leadership : Joe Roth = Winner

The two categories highest on my wish list for the current crop of QBs on the roster.

Scooterville Gau;482183 said:

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There has been a lot of board discussion recently about the current crop of Cal QBs - rather than debate who is the best of this group, which has been come a little contentious, I'd like to go a different direction: Which Cal QB is the all time best in each catagory? - the only condition attached is that you must have seen the QB play in person - getting long of tooth so some of my choices go back a ways - in some cases I didn't have a nominee - feel free to add or modify the catagories - Catagories and my selections:

1 ) Pure passer: Craig Morton
2 ) Gritiest: Joe Kapp
3 ) Strongest Arm: Kyle Boller
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Joe Roth
5 ) Runner: Paul Larson
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers
7 ) In the clutch: Joe Roth
8 ) Scrambler: ?
9 ) Most athletic: ?
10 ) Overall: Joe Roth

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I'd put Kapp as the Runner and most athletic. Besides playing QB, he played DB, was drafted as a RB, and was on the Cal Basketball team.

1 ) Pure passer: Dave Barr
2 ) Grittiest: Mike Pawlawski
3 ) Strongest Arm: Kyle Boller (Bartkowski was in that category, wasn't he?)
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Dave Barr
5 ) Runner: Paul Larson
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers/Dave Barr
7 ) In the clutch: Dave Barr
8 ) Scrambler: ?
9 ) Most athletic: ?
10 ) Overall: Joe Roth

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Rich Campbell was among the best I ever saw at Cal, but the team around him wasn't very good. Over 3 years he had a completion percentage of 64.6% including 70.7% his senior year.

Not a great td/int ratio, but again the talent around him wasn't great.

Passing games have become much more complex over time. Mastery of that complexity by itself means you are a better quarterback all-else-equal. Here are some stats that I know old Blues want to ignore:

2003 Rodgers 61.6% completion %, 2,903 yards, 8.3 ypa, 19 TD's, 5 Int's
1975 Roth 55.8% completion %, 1,880 yards, 8.3 ypa, 14 TD's, 7 Int's

Rodgers threw more often for the same yards per attempt. Rodgers was handing off the ball to a fine tailback in Echemandu but Rodgers WAS the offense. He threw 1.4 interceptions for every 100 attempts which is ridiculously low in any era (Roth at 3.1 which is good). Roth benefited from having the entire defense keying in on Chuck Muncie. I'm not trying to disparage Roth who was a great quarterback. But c'mon. Nobody is at Rodgers level. I haven't even discussed 2004.

StillNoStanfurdium;482185 said:

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As a current Cal student this is going to be a fairly uninspiring list.

1 ) Pure Passer: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury
2 ) Grittiest: Kevin Riley '10 during injury
3 ) Strongest Arm: Nate Longshore
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury
5 ) Runner: Kevin Riley
6 ) Accuracy: Kevin Riley '07 Armed Forces Bowl
7 ) In the clutch: Kevin Riley '07 Armed Forces Bowl
8 ) Scrambler: Kevin Riley
9 ) Most Athletic: Kevin Riley
10 ) Overall: Nate Longshore '07 pre-injury

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:rollinglaugh:

Ok here's my list based on those I can remeber
1 ) Pure passer: Aaron
2 ) Gritiest: Pawlawski-Dude was a linebacker playing QB
3 ) Strongest Arm: Pat Barnes
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Aaron
5 ) Runner: Reggie Robertson
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers
7 ) In the clutch: Pawlawski
8 ) Scrambler: ?
9 ) Most athletic: ?
10 ) Overall: Aaron

ohsooso;482328 said:

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1 ) Pure passer: Dave Barr
2 ) Grittiest: Mike Pawlawski
3 ) Strongest Arm: Kyle Boller (Bartkowski was in that category, wasn't he?)
4 ) Effective command of total offense: Dave Barr
5 ) Runner: Paul Larson
6 ) Accuracy: Aaron Rodgers/Dave Barr
7 ) In the clutch: Dave Barr
8 ) Scrambler: ?
9 ) Most athletic: ?
10 ) Overall: Joe Roth

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Gale Gilbert had a pretty strong arm. Unfortunately, that part of his game was somewhat overlooked because of his frustrating lack of mobility and the fact that he was playing at the same time as John Elway (who's arm was by far the strongest arm I have ever seen).

But, I think that Gale played in the NFL for about eight years (albeit mostly as a backup on the Bills to Jim Kelly) and he has the NFL record for the most consecutive Superbowl appearances with five. Four appearances were with the Bills and one with the Chargers, all as a backup.

The man reason Gale survived in the NFL as long as he did was because of the strength of his arm.

By the way, did I mention that Elway had the strongest arm I have ever witnessed? His receivers at Stanford had to start wearing gloves to prevent blisters. Really, they did.

BigGreenGoldenBear;482390 said:

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:rollinglaugh:

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LafayetteBear;482267 said:

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StillNo. You adhered to the OP's condition (that you must have seen the QB in question play), but in the process gave us not only the understatement of the year ("this is going to be a fairly uninspiring list") and one of the funniest "all time great" lists I have ever seen. Thanks.

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I agree with putting Nate at number 4. I would even go as far as to remove the "'07 pre-injury" qualifier. And my personal experience with Cal QBs goes back as far as Barnes.

All I know is that ESPN Classic periodically runs the the last time Cal beat SC at Memorial and Aaron Rodgers looks ridiculous. I remember watching that game and following the entire season as I always do, but damn......Cal has not had anyone even close to AR's talent since then. Granted he is now a super bowl winning QB, so it is easy to jump on the bandwagon and say he is a great QB. But I am a die hard Cal fan and remember his time at CAL and can remember how damn good he was. Seeing that game film just reiterates how the QB position at CAL has severely diminished in talent. He was so damn good. What could have been if he came back for his senior year!......turns out, he made the right decision in the big picture.

BTW: We should have beat SC the next year at the Coliseum had the WR caught the damn ball.

And Riley is the biggest disappointment at QB. After the bowl game against Air Force; with 2 years left of eligibility and the talent around him, I thought for sure, Cal would go to a Rose Bowl. Great guy.......but never got better.

Most cerebral: Troy Taylor.

Most poise: Dave Barr -- he would have been a legend but for breaking his collarbone v. UW in 1993

Most passion: Mike Pawlawski --OK, Joe Kapp had more, but Paws was cut out of the same cloth

Most underutilized: Pat Barnes -- because Gilby burned his RS and didn't develop him, it took Mooch's one year to get him to play like he did.

Could have been all-PX if he had a chance -- Reggie Robertson

There was an article in the Sacramento Bee in the last week on Colin Kaepernick that quoted Roger Theder as saying that Bartkowski had the strongest arm he ever saw. I assume he would have had ample opportunity to see Boller, Rodgers, etc. I do remember Bart's Jr year when he was platooning with Ferragamo and he got off a classic wounded-duck pass . . . that still went 50 yards in the air for a TD (maybe against Oregon St?). OK, I didn't go back and check the stats, but I never saw such a poorly thrown ball go so far.

MT211;482464 said:

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And Riley is the biggest disappointment at QB. After the bowl game against Air Force; with 2 years left of eligibility and the talent around him, I thought for sure, Cal would go to a Rose Bowl. Great guy.......but never got better.

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The talent around him is the real did not go to a RoseBowl, receivers who had trouble getting open andcatching the ball, an offensive line that diddn't gve him much time to pass.

Best Cal QB With A Spare Tire . . .
Jay Cruz! Looked like he was wearing flak-vest rib protection - except I don't think it had been invented, yet.

...I go back to Bart and Ferragamo and have seen a lot of Cal QB's in my day, so I will defer to the key statistic, which one has to go by, and that is who is capable of winning games when the pressure is on. Who would you rather have had as your QB....Joe Montana or say Dan Marino, or quite frankly how about Brett Favre? So, in that vain I would take AR, excluding the goal line mess down at USC, Joe Kapp who almost got to the holy land in college and the pros or even Mike P who was the right guy in the Citrus bowl for sure.

That is what makes the dude across the bay so good...he knows how to win.

Now it is true one needs a supporting cast and a good coach...think John Elway maybe.

I am not sure of just how good Joe Roth was as the circumstances surrounding his career were so sad and he never reached his potential. But possibly he could have been one of the greats, that is for sure and he couldn't get us by the Southern CA Curse when we needed it.

:gobears:

Yes, passing offenses have become more complex but they have also evolved to check down schemes and shorter routes to allow QBs to have a chance to be more accurate. Today's game is geared towards getting the ball into the playmaker's hands quickly so there is an emphasis on bubble routes, screens, and short passes. Many passes today are simply considered as long handoffs in the mind of coordinators.

I think you have to determine how the YPA were achieved when you compare Rodgers to Roth. Here is a good example. Compare Roth's 1975 game vs USC to Rodgers' USC game in 2004. In 1975, Roth was 19 of 31 for 244 yrds (12.8 YPA). Most of Roth's throws were attacking down the field. In 2004, Rodgers went 29 of 35 for 267 yards (9.2 YPA). Rodgers high percentage completion that day can partly be due to the shorter routes being called by Tedford. Many of Rodgers' passes that day were dinks and dunks.

Both are exceptional QBs but I have to give the nod to Roth. If you compare Roth's 75 season to Rodgers 2004 season, you also have to remember that Roth only started 8 games in 75. In 2004, Rodgers was the guy and was the starter from day 1.

Agreed. Both are outstanding QBs. It would have been fun to see Roth on Sundays. Heck, it would have been fun to see a healthy Roth in 1976.

run2win;482525 said:

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Yes, passing offenses have become more complex but they have also evolved to check down schemes and shorter routes to allow QBs to have a chance to be more accurate. Today's game is geared towards getting the ball into the playmaker's hands quickly so there is an emphasis on bubble routes, screens, and short passes. Many passes today are simply considered as long handoffs in the mind of coordinators.

I think you have to determine how the YPA were achieved when you compare Rodgers to Roth. Here is a good example. Compare Roth's 1975 game vs USC to Rodgers' USC game in 2004. In 1975, Roth was 19 of 31 for 244 yrds (12.8 YPA). Most of Roth's throws were attacking down the field. In 2004, Rodgers went 29 of 35 for 267 yards (9.2 YPA). Rodgers high percentage completion that day can partly be due to the shorter routes being called by Tedford. Many of Rodgers' passes that day were dinks and dunks.

Both are exceptional QBs but I have to give the nod to Roth. If you compare Roth's 75 season to Rodgers 2004 season, you also have to remember that Roth only started 8 games in 75. In 2004, Rodgers was the guy and was the starter from day 1.

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We should also not make the mistake of using any player's subsequent pro career, if any, as a measuring stick to prove his worth. Rodgers is on track to be perhaps the best NFL QB ever to come out of Cal, but this does not prove that he was the best Cal QB of all time.

Campbell did throw to two guys that ended up playing in the league for several years. WR Matt Bouze and TE Joe Rose.

Very good point.

Cal best QB's and their unique talents:
1 ) The pure passer: Morton
2 ) In your face leadership: Kapp
3 ) Strongest cannon: Bartkowski...accurate shots from a howitzer.
4 ) Complete command of the field: Joe Roth
5 ) Runner: Larson
6 ) Surgical accuracy: Rodgers
7 ) Mr. Joe Clutch: Joe Roth...Cal's answer to Joe Montana
8 ) The scrambler: Dan Berry...couldn't throw.
9 ) Most athletic: Might have been Reggie Robertson
10 ) Complete and total greatness: Joe Roth

run2win;482525 said:

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Yes, passing offenses have become more complex but they have also evolved to check down schemes and shorter routes to allow QBs to have a chance to be more accurate. Today's game is geared towards getting the ball into the playmaker's hands quickly so there is an emphasis on bubble routes, screens, and short passes. Many passes today are simply considered as long handoffs in the mind of coordinators.

I think you have to determine how the YPA were achieved when you compare Rodgers to Roth. Here is a good example. Compare Roth's 1975 game vs USC to Rodgers' USC game in 2004. In 1975, Roth was 19 of 31 for 244 yrds (12.8 YPA). Most of Roth's throws were attacking down the field. In 2004, Rodgers went 29 of 35 for 267 yards (9.2 YPA). Rodgers high percentage completion that day can partly be due to the shorter routes being called by Tedford. Many of Rodgers' passes that day were dinks and dunks.

Both are exceptional QBs but I have to give the nod to Roth. If you compare Roth's 75 season to Rodgers 2004 season, you also have to remember that Roth only started 8 games in 75. In 2004, Rodgers was the guy and was the starter from day 1.

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So you're saying that Cal's best ever quarterback is a guy who started in only 8 games in his one good year?