Bloodlands is a superb book - Snyder's other books are also interesting (Red Prince etc). One must be grateful that he didn't live in this territory where Stalin then Hitler then Stalin reigned. What a series of horrors.

Not for the faint-hearted, but I just spent the whole weekend speed-reading 2083 A European Declaration of Independence.

I found it to be very well written (despite it being written in English, his second language)and extremely thorough in a wide variety of fields ranging from history, culture, politics, science, technology, and tactics. It has it's flaws at rare times in grammer but it is well cited and linked much like a University paper, although Breivik does fail to properly cite two pages of the Unabomber's manifesto by leaving credit blank for the article.

It reads like some sort of tintillating suspense novel, except in "reality" we know the end result. I found it fascinating. Breivik definitely knew his stuff and was extremely well versed in a wide variety of fields.

Much of what he writes is hard to argue with and I'm sure many in western-europe will be giving new thought to some of Breiviks broader themes regarding: 1) the failure of mass-immigration and multi-culturalism in europe; 2) the demographic time-bomb and the creation of a Eurabia; and 3) the possibility of a european cultural civil war within the next two decades (think The Bosnian Serbian War x10,000).

I did not consider it to be a racist piece, but one based upon the preservation of indigenous culture in western europe. If you can't seperate Breivik's "words" from the slaughter he caused in Norway remember that Nelson Mandela once made a similar decision, and either committed, planned or was the leader for even more callous acts of violence against "innocent" men, women and children. Car bombs, bombs in public places like restaurants, shopping malls, pubs etc. Bursting into a church and throwing hand-grenades and opening up with machine guns. Planting mines on farm roads to kill farmers and their families. Etc. This was what was called by the ANC as the "Soft Target" policy.

And when Mandela was released around 1990 he was interviewed by the Talk Show host John Bishop, who asked him if he would at least condemn the "Soft Target" policy. Mandela's face hardened, and he simply said: "In every war, people are killed in cross-fire". And that was that. Now he is a world icon, loved and respected by the whole world (it seems). The Norwegians even gave him the Nobel Prize.

I'm not trying to start a divisive topic or push any ideas, but "2083" is on the front page of the WSJ ("Norway Mourns Dead Its Dead As Harsh Rhetoric Spreads"), and despite the lame media reports (eg. CBS's Sunday Night News)it is not a cut and paste job of the Unabomber's 46 page manifesto (Breivik's 1,500 page piece replicated passages 6 through 23 of the Unabomber's manifesto, grand total of two pages explaining the Psychology of Cultural Marxists in a segment where Breivik cites over one hundred different essays explaining Cultural Marxism in europe) but a well written piece arguing a point of view in the culture wars that are currently embroiling western europe but not neccessarily being reported by the media.

It is well worth the read for anyone interested in what is currently going on in a rapidly transforming europe during a time of crisis for the EU and would like some forthought regarding events that may yet become.

Considering how popular these "good book" threads are every time they pop up, I almost feel like we should have a Bear Insider book club.

CAL6371;534456 said:

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Bloodlands is a superb book - Snyder's other books are also interesting (Red Prince etc). One must be grateful that he didn't live in this territory where Stalin then Hitler then Stalin reigned. What a series of horrors.

---

I agree with the praise for Bloodlands - fantastic book.

Thanks for the recommendation re his other works.

93gobears;534663 said:

---

Not for the faint-hearted, but I just spent the whole weekend speed-reading 2083 A European Declaration of Independence.

I found it to be very well written (despite it being written in English, his second language)and extremely thorough in a wide variety of fields ranging from history, culture, politics, science, technology, and tactics. It has it's flaws at rare times in grammer but it is well cited and linked much like a University paper, although Breivik does fail to properly cite two pages of the Unabomber's manifesto by leaving credit blank for the article.

It reads like some sort of tintillating suspense novel, except in "reality" we know the end result. I found it fascinating. Breivik definitely knew his stuff and was extremely well versed in a wide variety of fields.

Much of what he writes is hard to argue with and I'm sure many in western-europe will be giving new thought to some of Breiviks broader themes regarding: 1) the failure of mass-immigration and multi-culturalism in europe; 2) the demographic time-bomb and the creation of a Eurabia; and 3) the possibility of a european cultural civil war within the next two decades (think The Bosnian Serbian War x10,000).

I did not consider it to be a racist piece, but one based upon the preservation of indigenous culture in western europe. If you can't seperate Breivik's "words" from the slaughter he caused in Norway remember that Nelson Mandela once made a similar decision, and either committed, planned or was the leader for even more callous acts of violence against "innocent" men, women and children. Car bombs, bombs in public places like restaurants, shopping malls, pubs etc. Bursting into a church and throwing hand-grenades and opening up with machine guns. Planting mines on farm roads to kill farmers and their families. Etc. This was what was called by the ANC as the "Soft Target" policy.

And when Mandela was released around 1990 he was interviewed by the Talk Show host John Bishop, who asked him if he would at least condemn the "Soft Target" policy. Mandela's face hardened, and he simply said: "In every war, people are killed in cross-fire". And that was that. Now he is a world icon, loved and respected by the whole world (it seems). The Norwegians even gave him the Nobel Prize.

I'm not trying to start a divisive topic or push any ideas, but "2083" is on the front page of the WSJ ("Norway Mourns Dead Its Dead As Harsh Rhetoric Spreads"), and despite the lame media reports (eg. CBS's Sunday Night News)it is not a cut and paste job of the Unabomber's 46 page manifesto (Breivik's 1,500 page piece replicated passages 6 through 23 of the Unabomber's manifesto, grand total of two pages explaining the Psychology of Cultural Marxists in a segment where Breivik cites over one hundred different essays explaining Cultural Marxism in europe) but a well written piece arguing a point of view in the culture wars that are currently embroiling western europe but not neccessarily being reported by the media.

It is well worth the read for anyone interested in what is currently going on in a rapidly transforming europe during a time of crisis for the EU and would like some forthought regarding events that may yet become.

---

Let me begin by saying that I haven't read any of the screed by that murdering bastard in Norway. But I find it laughable to compare him to Nelson Mandela.

Perhaps I would have an easier time if somehow a minority of Muslims had invaded Norway, used superior arms/technology to conquer Norway, enslaved the Norwegians, stolen Norway's natural resources (lutefisk, anyone?), pushed them into overcrowded, under-resourced Norwegistans, forced them to convert and/or learn Arabic under penalty of death, murdered Norwegian kids fighting for their self-determination, raped Norwegian women, and thumbed their noses at the objections of the rest of the civilized world. I may have then pondered a comparison/contrast between Anders Behring Breivik (raving lunatic/delusional paranoid/murdering bastard) and Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (freedom fighter/forgiving victor/world statesman).

Seeing as how you entertain Brevik's racist fantasy rant, and then attempt to link him to a man of color who fought and defeated a real racialocracy, one of the four most murderously racist hegemon regimes of the 20th Century (Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Ottoman Turkey being the other three), makes me question the distance between your own personal racial fears and life in the real world.

But, let's make it plain, while you are making inappropriate political comparisons. To which Founding Father do you compare Brevik?

Fyght4Cal;534958 said:

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But, let's make it plain, while you are making inappropriate political comparisons. To which Founding Father do you compare Brevik?

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Duh! Paul Revere, you silly goose.

Fyght4Cal;534958 said:

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Let me begin by saying that I haven't read any of the screed by that murdering bastard in Norway. But I find it laughable to compare him to Nelson Mandela.

Perhaps I would have an easier time if somehow a minority of Muslims had invaded Norway, used superior arms/technology to conquer Norway, enslaved the Norwegians, stolen Norway's natural resources (lutefisk, anyone?), pushed them into overcrowded, under-resourced Norwegistans, forced them to convert and/or learn Arabic under penalty of death, murdered Norwegian kids fighting for their self-determination, raped Norwegian women, and thumbed their noses at the objections of the rest of the civilized world. I may have then pondered a comparison/contrast between Anders Behring Breivik (raving lunatic/delusional paranoid/murdering bastard) and Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (freedom fighter/forgiving victor/world statesman).

Seeing as how you entertain Brevik's racist fantasy rant, and then attempt to link him to a man of color who fought and defeated a real racialocracy, one of the four most murderously racist hegemon regimes of the 20th Century (Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Ottoman Turkey being the other three), makes me question the distance between your own personal racial fears and life in the real world.

But, let's make it plain, while you are making inappropriate political comparisons. To which Founding Father do you compare Brevik?

---

You should re-read what I said. And, given that you have not read Breivik's piece perhaps YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR PIE HOLE SHUT, fat boy.

Unfriend / Block nemesis 93gobears.. CLICK!

"Bitch!"

93gobears;535059 said:

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You should re-read what I said. And, given that you have not read Breivik's piece perhaps YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR PIE HOLE SHUT, fat boy.

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Fat-phobic, xeno-drunk and politically stupid is no way to go through life, son.

SiniCal;535071 said:

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Unfriend / Block nemesis 93gobears.. CLICK!

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You won't be missed. I'm moving on as well.

BTW, when you delete/block my posts, does that also mean that I don't get anymore of your posts as well? If so, my laptop's down arrow says thank you.

Just checking, because I've never actually deleted anyone on BI before. Usually I just complain back or ignore them.

I suppose times are different.

Keep up with the group-think, and go bears.

Fyght4Cal;535086 said:

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Fat-phobic, xeno-drunk and politically stupid is no way to go through life, son.

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How should one respond to this? I'm sure I've dished it out hard core in my day but I thought at least I was always clever.

I can't explain the above comment unless it was just rash. Was it rash? Or can you justify it as a real statement.

NT

Fyght4Cal;534958 said:

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Let me begin by saying that I haven't read any of the screed by that murdering bastard in Norway. But I find it laughable to compare him to Nelson Mandela.

Why is that? Mandela fully accepted the fact that his tactics caused harm to innocent people.

.... I may have then pondered a comparison/contrast between Anders Behring Breivik (raving lunatic/delusional paranoid/murdering bastard) and Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (freedom fighter/forgiving victor/world statesman).

Don't let white christian indigenous culture get in the way of your thought.

Seeing as how you entertain Brevik's racist fantasy rant, and then attempt to link him to a man of color who fought and defeated a real racialocracy, one of the four most murderously racist hegemon regimes of the 20th Century (Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Ottoman Turkey being the other three), makes me question the distance between your own personal racial fears and life in the real world.

Please don't forget Stalin and the Communists when talking about "murderous" and "racist" hegemony regimes. Plus, shouldn't China replace Japan in the head count. Of course, who is keeping count. And you are concentrated on South Africa. Do you really need a history lesson?

---

Fyght4Cal;535086 said:

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Fat-phobic, xeno-drunk and politically stupid is no way to go through life, son.

---

I got to visit UofO's campus [mumble] years ago, honored to experience the campus tour, intent on spotting immortal AH-era settings. I witnessed, a first time for me, our host/guide quickstep around to numerous attractive facilities *Backwards *The *WHOLE *Way!

At one point an off script kid leaned out from a high floor dorm window, noticed us dozen or so prospective parents and their kids (and anon ringers). He shouted down, and this is as truthful as the Blues: "Don't Come Here!".

Well, oh-kay, sweet, guess he was having a bad day, studies, or whatever. Similar to a toyota sedan tailgater seen there, on a wonderful sunny winters day, fully tricked out with skier style goggles and mitts.. huh!? Possibly she was 93gobears sister, or mother, um, sister, NO.. (Chinatown style).

Got inside the cafeteria of the infamous "I'm a pimple, get it?" food fight scene. Alas, the interior had been entirely remodeled by then. Darn!

A really nice campus was my general impression, including the pioneer cemetery where I brown bagged directly across from the legendary Mac Court. The the overgrown trail from campus across the river to the football stadium was endearing too.

Whooops, guess I'm babbling again. Mainly wanted to acknowledge your Animal House homage, F4C.

#GoBears!

[
Got inside the cafeteria of the infamous "I'm a pimple, get it?" food fight scene. Alas, the interior had been entirely remodeled by then. Darn!

I have to call you on this one. Every true Animal House fan knows that it's "I'm a zit. Get it" Not a pimple. I'm going to have to put you on double secret probation.

I just started reading A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving.

Frumble - you're welcome. So few authors write about Middle Europe in the 20th Century that it is brand new history to me at least. Red Prince is about a Hapsburg Prince who has notions that he ought to be running part of that area (Ukraine etc) during WW II - fascinating read

Dark Reverie;535162 said:

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I just started reading A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving.

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Good Book, I've read most of Irvings stuff, many Moons ago. Can remember Howard Cosell quoting "GARP" during a Baseball broadcast.... yikes, I'm dating myself..

another couple of notables (to me) that I have read is

"Wild Swans" Three Daughters of China by Jung Chang. Tells the tale of three generations of women, Jung being the youngest, who lived through the yrs of MAO & his successors. Good Stuff... Gave it to my daughter to read in HS for a book report, teacher didn't know what to think...

another notable "Oxygen" The Molecule that made the World by Nick Lane He charts the development of the World, how Oxygen came to be & how it's corrosive effects dominate the life cycles of about everything... Excellent read...

BearyBearyGood;535151 said:

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[I have to call you on this one. Every true Animal House fan knows that it's "I'm a zit. Get it" Not a pimple. I'm going to have to put you on double secret probation.

---

..allowance, please?

Confirmation in your favor, obviously:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes?qt=qt0479919

My own always hoped for best-case scenario:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes?qt=qt0479916

Take Care BBG.

SiniCal;535133 said:

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Mainly wanted to acknowledge your Animal House homage, F4C.#GoBears!

---

Good times, great memories SiniCal. :beer:I knew that someone would get the reference.
I was gonna add this:
But, I thought it would be too easy.
Clearly 93GB knows as much as about classic college movies as he does about political science. :gobears:

93gobears;535130 said:

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Why is that? Mandela fully accepted the fact that his tactics caused harm to innocent people.

No, because you're conflating a legitimate liberation struggle with mass murder. Because you are comparing a man who spent nearly 30 years in jail for his political beliefs, emerging to use his freedom for reconciliation and healing, to a guy who used his freedom to slaughter his own innocent countrymen and fellow Christians in cold blood. Because you equate the racist, misogynistic Christian fascist rants of a madman (identified as such by his own lawyer) to the mature writings of a man who proximately resembles our own revolutionary founding fathers. Because the invading, colonizing, oppressing, killing Boers are the only innocents you see in apartheid South Africa. Because Mandela = Brevik is crazy talk.

Don't let white christian indigenous culture get in the way of your thought.
Here is the nut of this discussion. Do you seriously believe that European white people are today, this very moment, in fact, endangered? I mean, where are the Norwegistans? If so, do you believe that killing other white people is the solution?

Please don't forget Stalin and the Communists when talking about "murderous" and "racist" hegemony regimes. Plus, shouldn't China replace Japan in the head count. Of course, who is keeping count. And you are concentrated on South Africa. Do you really need a history lesson?
Reasonable people can differ about this ignominious list. But sir, YOU concentrated on South Africa. I merely pointed out the absurdity of comparing the plights of the respective indigenous peoples in apartheid-era South Africa and Norway 2011.

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Finally, I am still waiting to read from you which founding father the "well-versed" Brevik resembles. BearsWiin has his bid in, and it isn't even his argument. We breathlessly await yours.

Currently reading Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island. My wife gets annoyed when I read his books in bed, because I am constantly laughing out loud and it disturbs her...heh heh.

Probably a separate topic, but I am now doing most of my reading on a Kindle. But I am curious: How many of you read your books in electronic form?

MSaviolives;536345 said:

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Probably a separate topic, but I am now doing most of my reading on a Kindle. But I am curious: How many of you read your books in electronic form?

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Just got one. I kinda like it. But I still have some unread paper books I'm working through, so I read both.

I probably prefer the paper, but the Kindle is nice, and there's a lot of good free stuff.

"Rise and Fall of Athens", Plutarch (100 AD); translation by Ian Scott-Kilvert.

Fyght4Cal;535086 said:

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Fat-phobic, xeno-drunk and politically stupid is no way to go through life, son.

---

..cleverly fitted to that local piece of work, 93gibberish.



Well played F4C sir, well played.

Currently about half way through both of:

[U]Invisible Man[/U] by Ralph Ellison. This is part of my ongoing effort to read the entire western canon. IMO, this book lives up to its blockbuster reputation. Love it.

[U]The Devil in the White City[/U] by Erik Larson. About the 1893 Chicago World's Fair and a string of murders committed by America's version of Jack the Ripper. The murder side of the story is gripping, but the other half of the book deals with the political and administrative wranglings over the construction of the fair, which is a little like reading an account of your local government's last resolution. This part should have been edited down by about 2/3, leaving just enough to give a flavor of 1890's Chicago and to provide a backdrop to the murder stories.

Hilldebrand's [U]Unbroken[/U]-- great.

Just finished [U]The Hypnotist[/U] by Lars Kepler (another Scandinavia thriller).

Picking up "[U]In the garden of beasts : love, terror, and an American family in Hitler's Berlin"[/U] tomorrow.

I dont recommend in the garden of beasts. Plodding tale about a dithering American diplomat and his Paris hiltonesque daughter spreading her legs for half of Nazi Berlin. Extremely forgettable.

The story plays out in an alternate reality where the scariest villian is the all-mighty wizard of Z his-self. Twisted origin backfill elaborates on the troubled births of both of the infamous witches.

Wait, I forget, isn't there a Major Spoiler / NSFW warning on the title line above, or didn't it fit? DARN!

Found this lame & sketchy review in another Cybears thread, abandoned for no apparent reason. Dude.. book stuff belongs HERE.

Check it out, or not..
http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=536648#poststop

Mama Bear;536606 said:

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Hilldebrand's [U]Unbroken[/U]-- great

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+1

chitownbear;532606 said:

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There aren't as many readers as there used to be, it seems. Are we surprised? I'm not. What we call civilization is on its last legs...think Rome, 450 a.d. These apparently inevitable cycles are most annoying. The barbarians, by the way, are ALREADY inside the gates. Also true of old Rome, back in 450.

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Why do people make such illogical comparisons. Rome had just got done fighting a civil war that absolutely ravaged what soon became Western Rome. And to no one's surprise, Western Rome fell as Eastern Rome watched with glee. The Eastern Roman Empire survived another 1,000 years and would later be known as the Byzantine empire.

CalBear68;533117 said:

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But many say that Rome collapsed, not because of outside forces infiltrating its borders (gates, as it were), but because its expansion became so far reaching that it became ungovernable.

Oh, wait.....

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Yeah, that or the fact that the Western Roman army was decimated by Empireror Constantine and the Eastern Roman army. Eastern Rome accepted the surrender of Western Rome on the condition that they maintain a small army and pay tribute to the East. With no significant army and no money, western Rome began to pay the Visigoths and the Vandals to protect them from newer barbarian tribes such as the Ostrogoths and the Huns. However, the barbarian tribes formed agreements with each other once they realized it was in their best interest to take over Western Rome entirely -- and that was that.
Speaking of good books, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon is a great read for any amateur historian.

ESPN "Those guys sure had fun" The Story of How ESPN became the most powerful force in television. Great read and amazing story when you remember where they started and where they are today.

HaasBear04;536624 said:

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I dont recommend in the garden of beasts. Plodding tale about a dithering American diplomat and his Paris hiltonesque daughter spreading her legs for half of Nazi Berlin. Extremely forgettable.

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I'm on page 254 and the daughter has yet to score. Agree--dithering American diplomat, like many in his day. Love the description of Cordell Hull. Author didn't pull any punches. I'll plod on.