receive pensions in excess of $100,000 from CalPERS.

They are all listed here.

Check out what your city or county is stuck with in pensions and benefits for "fat cats."

The database also includes figures for those from CalSTRS, and UC.

In San José, 2 out of 3 Fire personnel, and more than 1 out of 3 Police personnel are retiring on a service-connected disability. The system is being gamed.

GB54;583351 said:

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In San Jos, 2 out of 3 Fire personnel, and more than 1 out of 3 Police personnel are retiring on a service-connected disability. The system is being gamed.

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The most egregious form of gaming the state pension system is when Public Saftey Officers (PSO's) near retirement stack the top management brackets and time their retirement so that they only spend 3-6 months at a top-level management position. This is horrible "public policy" for two reasons: 1) it sucks the management knowledge from an organization; and 2) it leaves the organization with an extra $20-50 thousand worth of pension liability for each member of that "buddy class" that goes through the system.

This compensation seems to be acceptable as long as the unions funnel money into Democratic Party coffers. But history will damn these greedy SOB's. From the greatest generation to the greediest generation in only a few decades.

GldnBear71;583079 said:

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I'm of the opinion that the only way out of this mess will be for a governor to have the courage to take the state into bankruptcy. That process would set aside all the existing agreements and clear the way for establishing more reasonable state pensions, reduced pay scales and perks for prison guards and other state employees, suspension of interest on debts, and possibly a mandatory rewrite of the state constitution.

We might as well do it deliberately. We are headed there anyway. We can walk into it prepared to make the necessary adjustments or we can eventually get dragged into it kicking and screaming.

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Notwithstanding my disagreement with your idea on the grounds that it punishes thousands of middle class workers and will ultimately undermine UC's ability to attract quality employees, the fact remains that states do not get bankruptcy protection.

OdontoBear66;583099 said:

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On point. Better look at your city's, county's obligations are with pensions, and decide what you wish to do with your real estate? Simple, but serious. Education, prisons, welfare is not the problem that defines your future. Public employee pensions, as it relates to YOU is. Get smart.

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Almost half the funding for public pensions is deducted from the workers' paychecks. The vast majority do not get social security; those who do (for having worked in the private sector, find their benefits greatly diminished due to an "offset" (a retiree with a public pension has to work 30 years in the private sector, earning "substantial" wages, in order to have the offset reduced to 10%). The portion of the pension that is funded by the public employer constitutes delayed compensation which is earned at the time of employment with the understanding that it is paid/collected after retirement. Moreover, most (at least 95% of) government employees do not earn sufficient wages to invest for retirement (as better paid private sector employees do to supplement social security).

Darby;583379 said:

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This compensation seems to be acceptable as long as the unions funnel money into Democratic Party coffers. But history will damn these greedy SOB's. From the greatest generation to the greediest generation in only a few decades.

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I know that in Alameda it's been said that the favors of a city councilperson can be bought by a Firefighter's Union (under contract) or a land developer (seeking a deal) for little more than Ten thousand dollars.

Shocked? I was too.

southseasbear;583394 said:

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Notwithstanding my disagreement with your idea on the grounds that it punishes thousands of middle class workers and will ultimately undermine UC's ability to attract quality employees, the fact remains that states do not get bankruptcy protection.

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Beware the silent Congress. A Path Is Sought for States to Escape Their Debt Burdens

GivemTheAxe;583164 said:

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Sometimes things are not what they appear to be.
Two possible solutions which could relieve the problem are:

1. Remove the Three Strikes Law which puts a heavy burden on the prison system (which currently draws more state funding than higher education).

2. Decriminalize minor drug offenses. Marijuana. Which further adds to the burden and expense of the crinial justice system.

3. Change the tax laws allowing for less than 60% majority for passage. California hit the impasse which is currently facing the US in that a minority of the population can prevent and block efforts by the majority to deal sensibly with deficits and budgets et al. (not that more taxes alone will solve the problem; but they can form part of a balanced approach to solving the problem.)

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I knew someone had to come up with the "raise taxes" line.

You do realize that California already has the highest state income taxes, the highest state corporate income taxes and is top 10 in sales taxes?

Even the writer pointed out that the problem was completely due to an unrealistic belief that we could give state employees contracts that would have bankrupted any corporation and the bill would never come due.

California recently tried to raise some taxes by passing a law that would have forced Amazon to collect sales taxes based on the fact that Amazon had affiliate contracts with stores in the state. I believe the estimate was $40 million per year in increased revenue.

Instead, Amazon immediately cut all ties to affiliates in the state. Several of those stores shut their doors or moved out of the state. Others are expecting a drop in revenue and since they were sole proprieterships where the owner declares the profits as income, the lower sales means lower income which means less tax revenue.

The state will LOSE revenue because this tax INCREASE passed.

Any other tax increase will only make the problem worse. Most US corporations are more about service and research than production. Its extremely easy to move an office of accountants and engineers to another state and many have already made it clear that another tax increase will see many corporations shed jobs. Even the type of tech jobs that were once exclusive to Silicon Valley are moving to lower tax states.

Let's not pretend that we can raise taxes without first cutting the union and state employee gravy train and actually fixing services.

After all when a prisoin dentist can get paid over $500,000 in his final year of service by having all of his "unclaimed" sick pay rolled into his annual salary, and that final salary is used to determine his retirement pay, you have a problem that can never be fixed by trying ti get a few more drops of tax revenue blood from the working publics paychecks.

goldenbearmb;583333 said:

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Why are we whining about paying more in taxes to support the retirement of public servants who risk their lives every day of their working career, when we are paying a football coach 2 million a year to keep us amused? Just sayin'...

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In most cities the number of real dangerous fires might be 1 per year. Probably less. Only the firefighters who end up trying to deal iwth the major brush and forest fires face danger and even those fires come around every 5 years or so.

Firefighting has always been described as dangerous, but is it really as dangerous as people believe, or is that part of "gaming the system".

I'd say the same about police. Yes, they do end up in shootouts occasionally, but I'm sure that probably 80-90% of the cities in the state have no had a since police officer die on the job in the last 5 years. Its a tough job, but so is any manufacturing job, and some jobs like mining or logging are far more dangerous for far less pay.

And while you are whining about the pay for a football coach, are you also refusing to pay for tickets? Since his pay is based on selling football tickets and football paraphenilia. Most college football programs can and do pay their coaches out of the revenue the program generates. I know that Cal is able to do that. And that's why football coaches are paid what they are. If you want the program to pay for iteslf, you need a good coach who can lead a team to win games and good coaches cost money. It's probably true that a dedicated search could find a coach as good as Tedford who wouldn't demand 2 million, but right now there are costs involved in ending Tedford's contract, so right now, that isn't a concern.

BearsLair72;583293 said:

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...excluding the prison guards, which have manipulated the system and by the way strongly backed the 3 Strikes Law in order to increase the prison population and thereby increase their numbers, the 3% was put in there for public safety workers, i.e. those most at risk of dying on the job like the CHP. It was placed in there with good intentions...how do you attract someone to a job where they can die for a crummy salary? That was the reasoning and once again remove all the benefits of being a police or fireman and in a good economy no one will take those jobs if safer and better jobs can earn the same money. And by the way, all other State workers only earn 2% a year.

Some of this is just more of the same too...the Republicans hate the unions not because of this, but because they know that they are the last decent contributor to the Dems...destroy the unions, destroy the Dems funding and since big business and the elites have plenty of money for Arnold and his crew that is the real logic behind some of this.

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Well how about we do this. We ban all unions from any political activity. They can't contribute to campaigns, they can't organize to help "get out the vote" or to lead rallies for candidates. They can only use their money to pay for a single negotiator who represents the union in negotiations over pay/benefits etc.

And then we do the same for all corporations.

We also take every lobbyst int he nation, tie a 10 pound weight to their ankles, take them to the Marianas trench in the Pacific Ocean and throw them overboard.

Get all of the dirty money out of the capitals.

Of course, it will immeidately find new routes, and the corruption will continue.

But the picture of all those scummy lobbyist trying to swim with weights around their ankles does bring a smile to my face.

mvargus;583431 said:

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I knew someone had to come up with the "raise taxes" line.

You do realize that California already has the highest state income taxes, the highest state corporate income taxes and is top 10 in sales taxes? you know that is arguable. Property taxes in CA are some of the lowest in the nation.

...

California recently tried to raise some taxes by passing a law that would have forced Amazon to collect sales taxes based on the fact that Amazon had affiliate contracts with stores in the state. So what is so wrong with having California residents pay state income tax on items essentially purchased in-state/on-line?

Instead, Amazon immediately cut all ties to affiliates in the state. That won't last long, especially if you can define an "in-state amazon affiliate" to me.

The state will LOSE revenue because this tax INCREASE passed. Near term perhaps, but not long term. Just check out the state of New York. They passed a similar law. The idea that internet sales tax should not be enforced by states has gone the way of the dinasour.

Any other tax increase will only make the problem worse. Well, can we issue a petrolium oil extraction tax? California currently does not have one (unlike Texas and Alaska) despite being the third largest US petrolium producing state after Texas and Alaska.

Let's not pretend that we can raise taxes without first cutting the union and state employee gravy train and actually fixing services. Why not? Chevron certainly can't move CA oil wells to Wyoming. That's $2 Billion a year.

After all when a prisoin dentist can get paid over $500,000 in his final year of service by having all of his "unclaimed" sick pay rolled into his annual salary, and that final salary is used to determine his retirement pay, you have a problem that can never be fixed by trying ti get a few more drops of tax revenue blood from the working publics paychecks. Untrue. $500,000 was a settlement for back pay, not sick leave. That full amount was NEVER used to calculate this doctor's final anual pension payment amount.

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It's incredible how smart people can be so deluded in their political beliefs that they choose to ignore facts.

mvargus;583434 said:

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I'd say the same about police. Yes, they do end up in shootouts occasionally, but I'm sure that probably 80-90% of the cities in the state have no had a since police officer die on the job in the last 5 years. Its a tough job, but so is any manufacturing job, and some jobs like mining or logging are far more dangerous for far less pay.

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The Alameda Police Department has had two line of duty deaths:

Officer Robert James Davey, Jr.
Alameda Police Department
EOW: Thursday, March 3, 1983
Cause: Gunfire

Officer Deward Burton Gresham
Alameda Police Department
EOW: Saturday, July 11, 1942
Cause: Motorcycle accident.

93gobears;583400 said:

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I know that in Alameda it's been said that the favors of a city councilperson can be bought by a Firefighter's Union (under contract) or a land developer (seeking a deal) for little more than Ten thousand dollars.

Shocked? I was too.

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Me too. Thought it wouldn't cost that much.

Where's Ron Cowan when you need him?

I will just add a few things to this:

1. Ronald RayGun and Pete Wilson raised the state income tax temporarily.
2. The idea that if you raise taxes the "wealth creators" will leave is absurd and if you want a real laugh, watch the last episode of Real Time when he puts up Bill O'Reilly's clip that if his taxes are raised he may have to quit.
3. I have worked with the State for 30 years and most posters are incredibly naive about everything concerning what is accomplished, what is not and what part the worker's play. As far as gaming the system, the poster has it wrong again. The way the few who have gamed the system do it is to retire at a high grade and then come back as a "retired annuitant" at about 66% of their salary and really makes some bucks. However, because the State cannot hire they now pay consultants 3 times what a state worker would make to get anything done. Half those companies then offshore the work....sound good to you?
4. The ability for corporations to donate endless cash, recently upheld by the now political Supreme Court, is a far greater threat to democracy than unions have or ever will be. The answer is really public financing of campaigns if you ask me. But, you didn't.

93gobears;583445 said:

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It's incredible how smart people can be so deluded in their political beliefs that they choose to ignore facts.

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CrimsonBear - very true. Just finished the new Lewis book - Boomerang. Lots of fun and insight.
What many have said here is true - we are ruining the future by giving so much to the old and so little to the younng (the future).
Unions are the problem and stupid voters are an even bigger problem.
Firefighters are notorious for overstating the danger in their jobs. I know of some former cops who became firefighters and they said the job was like a vacation - people never shoot at, spit at, curse or act like Adam Henrys to firefighters like they do to cops. Rare is the firefighter who doesn't retire on a disability. Look in the paper when openings occur - even in good times, the line is a mile long for firefighter jobs and much, much smaller for other public service jobs. That should tell you everything you want to know about whether they are overpaid.
The real danger to cops, as I was told long ago when getting a Master's degree in Criminology at Cal, is in the effect the job has on you mentally - lots of suicides, divorces, alcoholism etc are the result of law enforcement work.
Three strikes is a big problem because of of the way LA County treated it. Gil Garcetti, the former DA had all three strike cases filed without regard to how serious they were. Most counties had the deputies use discretion and look closely at the record and seriousness of the offense. They used their heads. Garcetti was so afraid of the public reaction to a nonfiling wherein the offender might later kill someone that he took the gutless way out. Just like he did with the OJ case - filing it downtown to satisfy the black community instead of filing it in Santa Monica. Garcetti was a gutless wonder and caused a lot of damage.
One of the biggest problems is overtime. It should not be included in the calculation. I worked as a prosecutor for thrity years and never got a dime for overtime. Neither should they.
Some people game the system. I tried more homicide cases than anyone in the history of Ventura County, but I am near the bottom of the retirement pay list for retirees from the DA's Office. Several people who were never allowed near a really serious case get far more than I do. Perfect justice is hard to find.
End of rant.

Blueblood;583169 said:

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"Hey, Joe, we've got to increase our complaints about the poor weight training equipment that we have to work with here. Hell, I'm here for a five years so we'll
need updated equipment real soon!"

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Weightlifting equipment was removed from the prison system years ago. More Blueblood propaganda.

nm

mvargus;583436 said:

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Well how about we do this. We ban all unions from any political activity. They can't contribute to campaigns, they can't organize to help "get out the vote" or to lead rallies for candidates. They can only use their money to pay for a single negotiator who represents the union in negotiations over pay/benefits etc.

And then we do the same for all corporations.

We also take every lobbyst int he nation, tie a 10 pound weight to their ankles, take them to the Marianas trench in the Pacific Ocean and throw them overboard.

Get all of the dirty money out of the capitals.

Of course, it will immeidately find new routes, and the corruption will continue.

But the picture of all those scummy lobbyist trying to swim with weights around their ankles does bring a smile to my face.

---

nm

CAL6371;583752 said:

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CrimsonBear - very true. Just finished the new Lewis book - Boomerang. Lots of fun and insight.
What many have said here is true - we are ruining the future by giving so much to the old and so little to the younng (the future).
Unions are the problem and stupid voters are an even bigger problem.
Firefighters are notorious for overstating the danger in their jobs. I know of some former cops who became firefighters and they said the job was like a vacation - people never shoot at, spit at, curse or act like Adam Henrys to firefighters like they do to cops. Rare is the firefighter who doesn't retire on a disability. Look in the paper when openings occur - even in good times, the line is a mile long for firefighter jobs and much, much smaller for other public service jobs. That should tell you everything you want to know about whether they are overpaid.
The real danger to cops, as I was told long ago when getting a Master's degree in Criminology at Cal, is in the effect the job has on you mentally - lots of suicides, divorces, alcoholism etc are the result of law enforcement work.
Three strikes is a big problem because of of the way LA County treated it. Gil Garcetti, the former DA had all three strike cases filed without regard to how serious they were. Most counties had the deputies use discretion and look closely at the record and seriousness of the offense. They used their heads. Garcetti was so afraid of the public reaction to a nonfiling wherein the offender might later kill someone that he took the gutless way out. Just like he did with the OJ case - filing it downtown to satisfy the black community instead of filing it in Santa Monica. Garcetti was a gutless wonder and caused a lot of damage.
One of the biggest problems is overtime. It should not be included in the calculation. I worked as a prosecutor for thrity years and never got a dime for overtime. Neither should they.
Some people game the system. I tried more homicide cases than anyone in the history of Ventura County, but I am near the bottom of the retirement pay list for retirees from the DA's Office. Several people who were never allowed near a really serious case get far more than I do. Perfect justice is hard to find.
End of rant.

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Good grief. What makes you think that "pensioners" didn't take a big hit on their 401k's and their home equity?

And why don't you think they have paid contributions into their own retirement funds?

Just asking. Have a cup o' tea.

BearsLair72;583750 said:

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I will just add a few things to this:

...
3. ... The way the few who have gamed the system do it is to retire at a high grade and then come back as a "retired annuitant" at about 66% of their salary and really makes some bucks. However, because the State cannot hire they now pay consultants 3 times what a state worker would make to get anything done. Half those companies then offshore the work....sound good to you?

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I believe that UC has been notorious for this practice.

He gave me every raise he could under the rules.